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Yavanna Akallabeth
Posted - 2010.08.30 07:11:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Yavanna Akallabeth on 30/08/2010 07:12:24
I like to say this before I move on, that anything that would bring back the awesome feeling that EVE once had a an very large game would be an A+ in my book. Adding a little more difficulty in the trading system would only rattle a few players, by adding an opportunity to make an new career in trading to feel the danger of moving goods that EVE had in 2003 can only bring the love on the game back to new players. The love and excitement moving stuff through M0o space and beating them was the greatest rush I haven't felt in a long time. ugh

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2010.08.30 08:32:00 - [62]
 

personally I have always believed it would be good to either make only single strand highsec piplines from empire to empire the other piplines all being lowsec. Or do a lowsec buffer zone between all empires.

But yes the reason why they do it is to keep people from getting omg wtf ganked emo rage when ever they try to carebear it from empire to empire.If nothing else I would like to see smaller and fewer highsec pipelines in empire, cause it would make finding WT's alittle easier.

LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.30 08:57:00 - [63]
 

You can't force people into lowsec... It is bad enough needing 2 paid accounts to do almost anything worth while in lowsec, there is a gank waiting at almost every corner. While it would be fun to sit on a gate and blast haulers carrying expensive stuff, it absolutely sucks having to log a second account just to move through low in anything bigger than a cruiser because no one else would scout for you.

Moose Burger
Posted - 2010.08.30 12:13:00 - [64]
 

I dont mind if they do this.

As long as low sec gate guns are quantipled in numbers, and the dps is increased 10 fold. (so around 40-50x more dps then the current gate guns)

Only triage carriers would be able to tank the guns, which actually make sense. The gate guns would also 249km scram, and 249km web after the scram, and also 249m ECM. ships with less then 50 sensor strengh will be permajammed.

On top of that, the gate guns will spawn for every GCC'd person in the area. so for example, if there are 3 pirates trying to kill a badger, 30 more gate guns will spawn, and the dps they have to tank will increase 30 fold.

I think if they implement the new gate guns, i dont mind them putting low sec between trade hubs.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.30 12:48:00 - [65]
 

In my opinion the package of changes should include


  1. Removal of highsec trade routes;

  2. A possible check about drops, belt composition and skills in order to make the four empires more different, to make interregional trade essential to empire life;

  3. A change in world shaping, adding a new lowsec region in the middle of the empires, with at least 5 entrances from highsec from ANY empire.



All highsec interregional trade goes through these 4 links

  • Amarr-Caldari: Niarja - Kaputeenen;

  • Amarr Minmatar: Jark - Odatrik;

  • Minmatar - Gallente: Bei - Colelie;

  • Gallente - Caldari: Sivala - Uedama.


  • Minmatar - Caldari : there is no highsec highways between those two already.

  • Amarr - Gallente: there is no highsec highways between those two already.


An idea that would mitigate the risk of interregional trading could be this:

A new region between Empires: "The valley of tears"

This new region should have a lot of access and a very distributed topology, with no choke points, so that the smugglers have many alternative routes. There should be no pipes, it should be like a well connected net. Possibly, local could be delayed in all system of that region. This region should have a lot of different highsec exits for every empire. For example:
  • To the Amarr High Sec : Niarja, Saana, Gosalav, Aphend; to Amarr Lowsec Dresi; Palpis, Oyeman, Arzad;

  • To highsec Minmatar : Osoggur, Avesber, Bei, Hjoramold; to minmatar lowsec Olfeim, Bosboger, Dal, Eszur;

  • To highsec Gallente: Colelie, Barmalie, Augnais, Aurcel; to lowsec Gallente: Ravarin, Aliette;

  • To highsec Caldari: Uedama, Kaputeenen, Isikesu,Rairomond, Geras.


This boring list is just to show the main aspect of the idea: add a lot of lowsec routes with a complicated topology.

Once set the connections with empire, "The valley of tears" internal topology must have a high level of connectivity.






Ak'athra J'ador
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.08.30 12:51:00 - [66]
 

pirate gate camps would become targets very fast. not all pirates like each other Wink
its only a matter of time a bigger fleet of other pirates or anty-pirates showed up and busted the gate-camp.

but imagine the potential, imagine how much money could be made off of trading between empires...

awesome idea me thinks which would be fun.

boost lowsec or nerf everything else Very Happy

Samuel Miner
Caldari
Perilous Expedition
Posted - 2010.08.30 12:53:00 - [67]
 

When people propose this idea, the bears always see it as "one route between empire space to rule them all". This is because most of them are too lazy to actually fly a route that isn't a straight shot.

If all empire was surrounded by low sec (island theory) then it would create many more low sec gates that couldn't always be camped. You would have to actually fly your ship around typical camp spots, but you could probably find a route that is clear every time.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.30 12:58:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Camios on 30/08/2010 12:59:28
Originally by: Samuel Miner

If all empire was surrounded by low sec (island theory) then it would create many more low sec gates that couldn't always be camped . You would have to actually fly your ship around typical camp spots, but you could probably find a route that is clear every time.


My post translated for dummies/in a better explicative way.
Provided that it would create many more low sec gates that couldn't always be camped . CCP should think heavily of world shaping before doing it.

Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:43:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador
pirate gate camps would become targets very fast. not all pirates like each other Wink
its only a matter of time a bigger fleet of other pirates or anty-pirates showed up and busted the gate-camp.

but imagine the potential, imagine how much money could be made off of trading between empires...

awesome idea me thinks which would be fun.

boost lowsec or nerf everything else Very Happy


Nah what would happen is the 0.0 alliances would just blob the lowsec regions to death for control. They have the man power and ****, they'll probably gate camp in caps.

Pheusia
Gallente
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:44:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz
Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador
pirate gate camps would become targets very fast. not all pirates like each other Wink
its only a matter of time a bigger fleet of other pirates or anty-pirates showed up and busted the gate-camp.

but imagine the potential, imagine how much money could be made off of trading between empires...

awesome idea me thinks which would be fun.

boost lowsec or nerf everything else Very Happy


Nah what would happen is the 0.0 alliances would just blob the lowsec regions to death for control. They have the man power and ****, they'll probably gate camp in caps.


Why would the 0.0 alliances do that? I could see them breaking up camps when they want to move supplies, but apart from that... not so much.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:52:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 30/08/2010 23:04:27
This post has always been empty.

*waves hand*

Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:54:00 - [72]
 

The imminent danger and certain death of lowsec is highly overrated, as long as enough crossing points between empires were put up (say 20 per border area) that they can't all always be camped it would work out just fine. Might force indy corps to get a pvp wing to escort the trips through lowsec Smile

Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2010.08.30 14:03:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Pheusia
Originally by: Aessoroz
Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador
pirate gate camps would become targets very fast. not all pirates like each other Wink
its only a matter of time a bigger fleet of other pirates or anty-pirates showed up and busted the gate-camp.

but imagine the potential, imagine how much money could be made off of trading between empires...

awesome idea me thinks which would be fun.

boost lowsec or nerf everything else Very Happy


Nah what would happen is the 0.0 alliances would just blob the lowsec regions to death for control. They have the man power and ****, they'll probably gate camp in caps.


Why would the 0.0 alliances do that? I could see them breaking up camps when they want to move supplies, but apart from that... not so much.


Space pinatas filled with goodies.

My Postman
Posted - 2010.08.30 14:50:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: My Postman on 30/08/2010 14:52:44
When removing empire highways, two things will happen immediatley imo:

1) All lowsec bottlenecks are permacamped and it doesīnt make a difference if CCP creates 10 or 100. Every gate camper clear in mind will move to one of those, targets guaranteed, no more boring waiting.

2)All those haulers and items destroyed, markets come to a halt, before industrialists reorganize. Big alliances donīt care, as they blow their way, blobfesting before the haulers come in. All will settle down after some time but without empire-empire travelling so much, and the pirates still sit there camping, but again dieing from boredom.

Edit: Forgot to say, you canīt force ppl into lowsec, it is broken and will remain broken forever. NBSI (shoot at sight) caused it.

FingerThief
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.30 16:08:00 - [75]
 

Cause + solution = http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=142

Creiter
Posted - 2010.08.30 16:41:00 - [76]
 

I would quite the game if something like this were to happen. EVE already has enough bottlenecks as it is, I hate flying into gate camps in a fast fitted frig only to be scram/destroyed inside of 3 seconds (BR wouldn't of stood a chance) and making bookmarks to bypass warp bubbles on every nullsec gate for every gate in system for every region you travel which is very tedious to maintain (and twice now BMs have caused problems for the server). Highsec is the only place I feel safer and I don't like to be bottled up inside one empire only to travel out through lowsec to loose a ship, podded, and ridiculed by some basement rat after paying a ransom. You pirates were given lowsec and you made it what it is, so enjoy your desolate wild west and the salty cake soaked in your tears that comes with it. So stop asking CCP to fix your problem and adapt or die.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.30 18:55:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Camios

This new region should have a lot of access and a very distributed topology, with no choke points, so that the smugglers have many alternative routes. There should be no pipes, it should be like a well connected net. Possibly, local could be delayed in all system of that region. This region should have a lot of different highsec exits for every empire. For example:
  • To the Amarr High Sec : Niarja, Saana, Gosalav, Aphend; to Amarr Lowsec Dresi; Palpis, Oyeman, Arzad;

  • To highsec Minmatar : Osoggur, Avesber, Bei, Hjoramold; to minmatar lowsec Olfeim, Bosboger, Dal, Eszur;

  • To highsec Gallente: Colelie, Barmalie, Augnais, Aurcel; to lowsec Gallente: Ravarin, Aliette;

  • To highsec Caldari: Uedama, Kaputeenen, Isikesu,Rairomond, Geras.


This boring list is just to show the main aspect of the idea: add a lot of lowsec routes with a complicated topology.




If I get it right you think that 3 entry/exit point for empire for the net connecting them is "a well connected web"?

You fear pirates can't gatecamp more than 12 point in all EVE?

Seriously, make it 3 entry point for each region of the empires and it can work, but 3 foe an entire empire is asking for permanent gatecamps.

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.08.30 20:08:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Aurum Bellator on 30/08/2010 20:09:31
Originally by: Creiter
I would quite [sic] the game if something like this were to happen.

I knew if this stayed on page one for long enough, the inevitable "if they do this, I quit" crybaby would show up.

Originally by: Creiter
EVE already has enough bottlenecks as it is, I hate flying into gate camps in a fast fitted frig only to be scram/destroyed inside of 3 seconds (BR wouldn't of stood a chance) . . .

For one, I highly doubt you are speaking from any real experience. Anyone who has actually flown a 'fast fitted frig' knows well that they are virtually impossible to stop. The only possible way to catch one is an interceptor sensor boosted to the max piloted by a person with lightning reflexes. Even then, it is extremely rare to catch a 'fast fitted frig' at any gate camp.

Originally by: Creiter
and making bookmarks to bypass warp bubbles on every nullsec gate for every gate in system for every region you travel which is very tedious to maintain (and twice now BMs have caused problems for the server).


And bookmarks and warp bubbles are relevant to this discussion . . . how, again? This being a discussion about low security space where you can't set up bubbles. So I don't quite understand how this point is in any way relevant.

Originally by: Creiter
Highsec is the only place I feel safer and I don't like to be bottled up inside one empire only to travel out through lowsec to loose a ship, podded, and ridiculed by some basement rat after paying a ransom. You pirates were given lowsec and you made it what it is, so enjoy your desolate wild west and the salty cake soaked in your tears that comes with it. So stop asking CCP to fix your problem and adapt or die.

For one, as has been pointed out on previous pages, the main proponents of this suggested change are not pirates at all. Personally, in the four months I've been back in this game, I've only engaged in PvP on a very few occassions, all of them nonconsensual (on my part), and all of them resulting in the demise of my ship and in a few cases, my pod.

That being said, I am not wringing my hands in dismay threatening to quit the game because I lost 500m worth of tech 2 cargo to some suicide gankers camping a 0.9 security system gate. Rather, I hunkered down, did some research at Battleclinic on how to fit a ship to counter suicide ganking, and have taken precautions to prevent it in the future.

I support this idea because I believe it will make the game more challenging and hence, for those who take up the challenge (to transport goods from empire to empire), more profitable. I would be the first to congratulate a pirate gate-camper who blows up my ship when I knowingly undertake the risk of transporting goods through low sec. But the risk, hopefully, would be worth taking.

Right now, there is no skill or risk in trading between empires. Anyone can do it with 15 minutes of training time to fly a tier 1 indy. That, in my opinion, is sad.

AUB

Joan D'Jita
Posted - 2010.08.30 22:45:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Yavanna Akallabeth
Edited by: Yavanna Akallabeth on 30/08/2010 07:12:24
I like to say this before I move on, that anything that would bring back the awesome feeling that EVE once had a an very large game would be an A+ in my book. Adding a little more difficulty in the trading system would only rattle a few players, by adding an opportunity to make an new career in trading to feel the danger of moving goods that EVE had in 2003 can only bring the love on the game back to new players. The love and excitement moving stuff through M0o space and beating them was the greatest rush I haven't felt in a long time. ugh


QFT.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.08.30 23:13:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Creiter
(BR wouldn't of stood a chance)


I see where your problem is, you are supposed to put cloaks on those Wink

Cikulisuy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.08.31 04:15:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: LittleTerror
You can't force people into lowsec... It is bad enough needing 2 paid accounts to do almost anything worth while in lowsec, there is a gank waiting at almost every corner. While it would be fun to sit on a gate and blast haulers carrying expensive stuff, it absolutely sucks having to log a second account just to move through low in anything bigger than a cruiser because no one else would scout for you.


someone has never been to losec, the truth is, there are gatecamps on highsec border systems, and only 1/4th of the time. the rest is completely deserted, with the occasional alliance capital outpost, or jewgold mining-tower

Moose Burger
Posted - 2010.08.31 05:34:00 - [82]
 

i dont mind low sec between empires. as long as there is one high sec connection each region, it should be okay.

Kireiina
Posted - 2010.08.31 06:38:00 - [83]
 


Just be more honest about it. The only people who get more gameplay options out of this are bored low-sec gate campers.

Maybe a proposal like;

"force the bears into low-sec so I can kill them".

I mean its not like pirates really care about the game-lore (then again, who does). And if you wanted to go that way wouldn't the empire neutral concord still be patrolling the tradelanes? And the marginal bit of game-lore that exists (The SoE epic arc) has all the empires collaborating behind the political posturing.

Scrapyard Attendant
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:14:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Scrapyard Attendant on 31/08/2010 09:16:25
Originally by: Creiter
I hate flying into gate camps in a fast fitted frig only to be scram/destroyed inside of 3 seconds (BR wouldn't of stood a chance)


You're doing it wrong.

Originally by: Creiter
You pirates were given lowsec and you made it what it is, so enjoy your desolate wild west and the salty cake soaked in your tears that comes with it. So stop asking CCP to fix your problem and adapt or die.


If its for pirates, why are you complaining about it when you live in hisec?

Natalie Caladan
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.08.31 10:06:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 31/08/2010 10:06:19
To keep everyone happy we should get a new substantial highsec area the size of one of the current factions (say 3-4 regions) 7 jumps away from know empire space.

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.31 10:11:00 - [86]
 

I'd also like to add a question:

What if there was only a single really long pipe of high sec through the lowsec seas? The idea is to make it a tunnel (2 gates only) with no stations at all in it.

How long do you think in would need to be to have an effect/will people sill use it rather than try the seas (which i presume will have multiple ways in and out?

I support the idea of lowsec seas though

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.08.31 11:59:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: My Postman
Edited by: My Postman on 30/08/2010 14:52:44
When removing empire highways, two things will happen immediatley imo:

1) All lowsec bottlenecks are permacamped and it doesīnt make a difference if CCP creates 10 or 100. Every gate camper clear in mind will move to one of those, targets guaranteed, no more boring waiting.

2)All those haulers and items destroyed, markets come to a halt, before industrialists reorganize. Big alliances donīt care, as they blow their way, blobfesting before the haulers come in. All will settle down after some time but without empire-empire travelling so much, and the pirates still sit there camping, but again dieing from boredom.

Edit: Forgot to say, you canīt force ppl into lowsec, it is broken and will remain broken forever. NBSI (shoot at sight) caused it.
PvP'ers spend ages looking for other PvP'ers to fight in low sec. Camps anywhere near our alliance's home don't last long as we go and kill them.

More camps would mean more PvP'ers out killing them.

Threads like this always make me Confused, because they are supported by those who understand low / null sec and it's the people who're completely clueless that refuse to even consider any change. My first corp was mainly a bunch of noobs, but had no problems running a large tower in a wormhole, even doing some t2 manufacturing there... all supplied through low sec as those were the only exits they got.

Getting multiple T1 indies 4j through low sec is a lot more entertaining than sticking a freighter on AP or killing your millionth mission spawn.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.31 12:23:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Getting multiple T1 indies 4j through low sec is a lot more entertaining than sticking a freighter on AP or killing your millionth mission spawn.


Try 26 jumps through lowsec and into syndicate, being chased by pirates from about jump 10 onwards. Man that was a fun op, 3 haulers and half a dozen cruisers hauling ass and every so often one of the escorts would turn and die holding up the pirates so the haulers could get a bit of breathing room. Got them into the destination system safely and when we said where we'd come from all the locals went "you guys were nuts for trying, well done" Twisted Evil

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.09.01 12:09:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Aurum Bellator on 01/09/2010 12:12:01
Originally by: Darek Castigatus

Try 26 jumps through lowsec and into syndicate, being chased by pirates from about jump 10 onwards. Man that was a fun op, 3 haulers and half a dozen cruisers hauling ass and every so often one of the escorts would turn and die holding up the pirates so the haulers could get a bit of breathing room. Got them into the destination system safely and when we said where we'd come from all the locals went "you guys were nuts for trying, well done" Twisted Evil


QFT; Exactly. I wish trading had some of this excitement and that's what implementing lowsec between the empires would do.

AUB

PS. Voice your support for this proposal in the assembly hall thread. Make this a CSM issue!

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2010.09.01 13:59:00 - [90]
 

It makes zero sense from a RP/Storyline point of view.

Systems connecting the empires would be well guarded, in times of peace to facilitate trade, in times of war to prevent invasion.

You can't force carebears into lowsec, no matter how hard you try.

Not supported.


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