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blankseplocked EVE Market vs. WOW Market.
 
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Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:05:00 - [31]
 

Wow has a market?

Last time I checked wow had an auction house and that was it.

All the support UI stuff is just for the auction house. oh and 72h max? - what about the expensive stuff that takes longer than that to sell? Oh right the really expensive stuff can't even be traded. This doesn't even get into the lack of buy orders.

For EVE to have an economic system remotely as limiting as WoW we'd need to remove all existing regional markets and only trade using contracts... And limiting those contracts to auctions... and even then we'd be better since we have a 2 week limit instead of a 3 day limit for high priced items.

Someone is mistaking the tools for analyzing/interacting with the market for being the market. They aren't they are just tools, nothing more.

Nikolai Kondratiev
Sphere Design Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:53:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Nikolai Kondratiev on 23/08/2010 16:25:15
Edited by: Nikolai Kondratiev on 23/08/2010 15:53:28
The day WoW actually gets close enough to Eve (market-wise) to even start thinking of comparing both games, then it will probably have become an really good game MMO (it's not THAT bad as a game, but it sucks hard for a persistent virtual world) Embarassed

(i.e most BoP/BoE loot gone, most items being crafted, crafting career not linked to combat career anymore and reworked a bit, market copying a few eve features like buy orders, historical data, ...)

And well that's not going to happen. WoW is just meant to be a game where you can explore a world and do quests until you're level 80 or whatever and then join big groups to kill big mobs or join small/big groups and kill other players with no other consequence than a 1-30 sec respawn time for them, in a pure FPS style.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2010.08.23 15:54:00 - [33]
 

I disagree with you Caleb, WoW AH does not have the depth or diversity of EVE markets. Keep in mind there are 3 separate markets

*Horde cities
*Alliance cities
*Goblin cities

A WoW player may only trade in two of the three and needs to use alts to cross trade if they want into the third market. Trading at the goblin to cross products over can be tricky. If anyone else is there and you set your product low for your main, someone could snap it up and there is nothing you can do about it.

Auctioneer is probably the best trader add on that I've seen. It takes a bit to set it up and if your add ons ever glitch and you have to wipe out the WTF folder (yes its the real name) you loose your history.

You use the link
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/auctioneer.aspx

I prefer to go to the source :)

http://auctioneeraddon.com/

No API - WoW player crafted tools do not have the luxury of downloading data while out of game. The person using the tools must log in, and update the add on's database while in game, while in that character. A few tools like "sanity" will allow one to check all the banks(one shared station hold per character) and backpacks(various sizes of cargohold expanders) of the characters on that server so that you may see where you have all your copper ore(veldspar ore)


Stability in prices L. O. L. You have got to be kidding me :) Prices fluctuate in the same way they do in EVE. Weekend traders vs daily traders and patch day demand and those who cater to it do very well.

Regarding player created items - The items made from patterns won in Raids is typically the best player made gear and can rival some of the raid BoP gear.

One of the Auctioneer creator's mods is Enchantrix and it would allow you to see what the recent sell price for the materials would be , provided that is you've scanned the AH materials menu for it to gather the data....

All in all EVE's market and player made API tools vastly outstrip anything Blizzard or their customers have come up with.

What exactly do you propose CCP do to stay ahead of the competition in the market/traders section of the sand box? You may be throwing up the red flag warning, but really, CCP has shown its a buyer beware world in the sandbox. What do you feel would make the marketing section more attractive to new players?

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.23 16:44:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Athre
STUFF..

No API - WoW player crafted tools do not have the luxury of downloading data while out of game. The person using the tools must log in, and update the add on's database while in game, while in that character. A few tools like "sanity" will allow one to check all the banks(one shared station hold per character) and backpacks(various sizes of cargohold expanders) of the characters on that server so that you may see where you have all your copper ore(veldspar ore)


Stability in prices L. O. L. You have got to be kidding me :) Prices fluctuate in the tsame way they do in EVE. Weekend traders vs daily traders and patch day demand and those who cater to it do very well.

Regarding player created items - The items made from patterns won in Raids is typically the best player made gear and can rival some of the raid BoP gear.

One of the Auctioneer creator's mods is Enchantrix and it would allow you to see what the recent sell price for the materials would be , provided that is you've scanned the AH materials menu for it to gather the data....

All in all EVE's market and player made API tools vastly outstrip anything Blizzard or their customers have come up with.

What exactly do you propose CCP do to stay ahead of the competition in the market/traders section of the sand box? You may be throwing up the red flag warning, but really, CCP has shown its a buyer beware world in the sandbox. What do you feel would make the marketing section more attractive to new players?


I am well aware of the fact that EVE world and WOW world is not even remotely the same, as already stated. I was pointing out that I was impressed by the improvement on a sandbox the size of a bucket, by simply adding some player created tools. EVE player created tools and services are maybe even more impressive, but they dont seem to have much "backing" and future development impact on ccp/eve. Personally I think this is one of the mayor issues. CCP should look at the player tools at build future changes around that and especially figuring out how to support these services, without actually making them obsolete(when possible).. WHat players are making is usually what they need, thus that shows ccp exactly what the game lacks and where to go.

My main focus and interest is quite biased toward market related gaming. In all the above my posting was initiated by the fact that I am finding EVE markets stale. We have had practically NO overhauls to market workings, features or UI since launch. Some rather minute exceptions if you count things like trading skills and injection of metaloot into scc.

You ask what specific things I would like to see in EVE to improve this.. There are many examples of features I would like to see, to mention a few of them..

Market Data needs to shift onto an out of game client server. A database for all historic data older then maybe 3 days. Thus retaining the fog of war element ingame, but giving the players and potential RL economists the ability to look at data and analyse it. Especially for looking at data comparatively and calculation of things like dependencies (elasticity). Best case EVE market Db makes a nice Web UI for looking at this data, maybe even working out something with Gapminder.

Adding a layer of API data to contracts. Since the contract system already has the "public" setting this could open up for some rather interesting new market and trading aspects and player created tools. If players created a new bank/exchange such API functions would help on these tools. You could have a contract driven transperent commodeties exchange, and even shares if these where released to be bearable and thus tradable in contracts.

Fix NPC facility pricings to be dynamic and thus impacting (HARD) on player activities and behaviour, and especially promote more specialization and price differences. (details on this omitted)

Takseen
Posted - 2010.08.23 16:56:00 - [35]
 

Eve metrics and Eve central both seem to do a pretty good job at giving market info outside of the game itself, do we really need an official one?

Better ways of searching and sorting contracts would be nice, certainly.
Market driven prices on NPC industry slots would be interesting too. ME research slots especially should cost significantly more given the demand.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.23 17:04:00 - [36]
 

continued..

Give players the feature to create bills, and ofc accept, automate or reject these. Link this feature to a "public or Private" setting, so this could be a part of the mentioned API.

Change and rebalance the orders nerf. (Yes that old thing). This is a topic I have been on a few times. I might agree that some limitation is relevant, but it needs a look at to make it more sensible and useful. Since all market orders are handled by brokers, then having a dynamic priced broker fee would potentially fix some of the issues. The point is barrier of entry into the market is rather steep and it is one of the main reasons for market holes and single market hub(Jita) dominance.

Balance Hangar and Office space features.
The static everyone can have all the "bagspace" they will ever need, is a nice feature but damaging to the economy and player behaviour. This is an area that could be a really useful and obvious money sink and Real Estate value creator. Add to this the feature that cans have the ability to be compartmentalized. Thus the benefit of corp hangar and cans would be the sorting features. Also with corp office hangars you should have the remote deliver to feature, and that should include non corpies on your contact list. Adding the Public hangar feature to corp offices would create a whole new aspect of the game. These would be standing and contact list controlled, so you could have outsiders look into your hangars, and give or take. OFC this feature would be vulnerable to exploits so making it a feature you would need skills and maybe items to activate would secure "inexperienced players"

Logs on cans and offices should be either API based or directly exportable to Excell/CSV files. Data like this should only be one week old, so servers dont do the players job. YOu want to keep logs longer you do the backups yourself..

Oh and a last NICE to have. Make the shares system a player created document feature. So you can discern features of such documents. Vote holding shares, non vote holding shares, forced buybacks, Bonds, etc.. Linked to API ofc. In this could be a document form that created a LOAN. This would have an automation of billing the player, thus being a player to player created contract, but with ingame "artifact" to prove it. These documents could not be edited once "sealed/locked down" This would become a signed contract and with added player governed features like notary we could get a lot of new developments. Not just more "secure banking" but also real estate and the sky is the limit..

The above might sound like a lot, but it actually is not that much if you look at it in stages. As a pipeline it would be rather simple to develop and move the game in these directions.


Keokio
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:00:00 - [37]
 

Lot of irrational people in this thread. The guy is saying CCP needs to continue innovation for fear of other games creeping up on EVE's market gameplay. Some of you guys read that and start getting all anal. He never said he wanted to play wow or any other game. He's just voicing concerns.

WoW's market is ass, i'll agree with everyone there. I've been playing eve for a few months and have plans for my mounting riches. My friend in WoW hit the gold cap several times, and I'm left thinking: 'what's the point?' (200k if anyone cares). There's no need to even amass gold before you actually have anything in mind to spend it on. And after you buy a mount... there isn't anything to spend it on.

But that's not the point. Wow may be ******ed, but blizzard aren't fools. If there's something good about another game, they integrate it into WoW. They do it time and again, just like other companies. It's not beyond reason to think they may one day do market overhauls which attract market players back. People can say it'll never happen, just like paladins and shaman will stay exclusive, like EQ2 will never have real money transactions, like there's no way Ricky Martin's gay.

And btw, you can compare anything. I never liked the saying about comparing apples and oranges... wtf, it's similarities AND differences. There's a lot more knowledge gained in comparing different things rather than crap that's the same.

Zanotam Hoto
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:35:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Zanotam Hoto on 23/08/2010 20:43:15
I'm admittedly playing WoW right now (yeah.... no comment), and only as a newb, but it doesn't have the market depth of Eve. At all. However, while I'm not much of an active player anymore, the CoV/CoH titles have developed a pretty comprehensive market over the past few years. And while some people might love the Eve market, I've always found it to be a bit of a hassle. I mean, if people no modern Earth were able to figure out that, for better or for worse, a market you can access and interact with from anywhere is better, then I'm surprised people in Eve haven't. I mean, really, the cut throat competition of Eve is pretty stupid, if you're looking for realism (as in reality, not this whole idealized reality people seem to think exists.). I mean, banning bots and punishing hacks and cheats doesn't seem very much like how a modern world and economy works. Wow.... I can't believe I've never thought about how romanticized the 'cut-throat' nature of Eve is. Hmm.... Well, I guess CCP is just a business and so anything that can hurt the bottom line that badly has to be dealt with.... Anyways, my point is that the Eve markets aren't really that impressive in their realism or their depth, since CCP has created artificial limits which are designed to keep you logged in and spending time in-game. Which is why Eve has nothing to worry about, since this level of pseudo-realism and pseudo-depth can only be achieved over a period of years and there is no clear contender at the moment. There are only so many people who have the free time necessary to truly make a game like this a worthwhile commodity.

0hai
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:43:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Zanotam Hoto
I'm admittedly playing WoW right now (yeah.... no comment), and only as a newb, but it doesn't have the market depth of Eve. At all. However, while I'm not much of an active player anymore, the CoV/CoH titles have developed a pretty comprehensive market over the past few years. And while some people might love the Eve market, I've always found it to be a bit of a hassle. I mean, if people no modern Earth were able to figure out that, for better or for worse, a market you can access and interact with from anywhere is better, then I'm surprised people in Eve haven't. I mean, really, the cut throat competition of Eve is pretty stupid, if you're looking for realism (as in reality, not this whole idealized reality people seem to think exists.). I mean, banning bots and punishing hacks and cheats doesn't seem very much like how a modern world and economy works. Wow.... I can't believe I've never thought about how romanticized the 'cut-throat' nature of Eve is. Hmm.... Well, I guess CCP is just a business and so anything that can hurt the bottom line that badly has to be dealt with.... Anyways, my point is that the Eve markets aren't really that impressive in their realism or their depth, since CCP has created artificial limits which are designed to keep you logged in and spending time in-game. Which is why Eve has nothing to worry about, since this level of pseudo-realism and pseudo-depth can only be achieved over a period of years and there is no clear contender at the moment.


In that case, can I have your stuff?

Zanotam Hoto
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:45:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: 0hai
Originally by: Zanotam Hoto
I'm admittedly playing WoW right now (yeah.... no comment), and only as a newb, but it doesn't have the market depth of Eve. At all. However, while I'm not much of an active player anymore, the CoV/CoH titles have developed a pretty comprehensive market over the past few years. And while some people might love the Eve market, I've always found it to be a bit of a hassle. I mean, if people no modern Earth were able to figure out that, for better or for worse, a market you can access and interact with from anywhere is better, then I'm surprised people in Eve haven't. I mean, really, the cut throat competition of Eve is pretty stupid, if you're looking for realism (as in reality, not this whole idealized reality people seem to think exists.). I mean, banning bots and punishing hacks and cheats doesn't seem very much like how a modern world and economy works. Wow.... I can't believe I've never thought about how romanticized the 'cut-throat' nature of Eve is. Hmm.... Well, I guess CCP is just a business and so anything that can hurt the bottom line that badly has to be dealt with.... Anyways, my point is that the Eve markets aren't really that impressive in their realism or their depth, since CCP has created artificial limits which are designed to keep you logged in and spending time in-game. Which is why Eve has nothing to worry about, since this level of pseudo-realism and pseudo-depth can only be achieved over a period of years and there is no clear contender at the moment.


In that case, can I have your stuff?


I don't play Eve for the market.

Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:05:00 - [41]
 

The market on WOW is awsome if you like buying big pointy shoulderpads or pointles colourful furry pets that follow you around,

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:04:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Caleb Ayrania on 23/08/2010 22:05:06
As mentioned above a few times, my soapboxing is about bringing attention to the lack of further development and balancing in EVE economy. I could mention a huge range of examples of mistakes and missing features, but to mention one that most should have noticed, and which is rather recent to EVE, let me point you to PI. The yield and the needed materials from tier zero to tier 1 is a factor of 3000 units. This could just as well have been 300, thus the trading price resoulution would have been way better for market trading. With this huge gap from tier to tier you end up with prices so low that it is forcing a 0.01 isking game. In short the resoulution makes the price movements "clunky".

Why was this not caught before launching the PI minigame? Would we not expect ccp to use their "economist and crew" to take a look and comment on new additions, ? I am just saying that such issues should be addressed, and ccp needs to focus on what in Kjartans own words is one of the most influential aspects of EVE.

Kjartan:"Finally, there is the economy. Even though many people don't realize it, the economy is truly the pinnacle of social interaction. This is of course assuming that it is player-driven rather than being dictated by the designers. It is only in a truly player-driven economic environment that price fluctuations of items and commodities realistically start to reflect the sum total of the socio-economic landscape of the world. The market becomes a mirror of the activities of all participants in the game and it acts to change players' actions by its reflection.

Such a player-driven system doesn't strictly require a single shard to function, but it is catalyzed by the extended size inherent to single-sharding. A small economy will be manipulated by a few strong players and exposed to large fluctuations and instabilities. The larger the economy gets, the more resilient it becomes. Once beyond those instabilities, it truly starts to reflect the macro-economic landscape of the game-world, becoming an allpervading, autonomous, and ever-changing mass of social content that no designer could ever think of hand-crafting.
"

^^Just gonna leave that here..

israus
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.23 23:02:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Edited by: Caleb Ayrania on 23/08/2010 22:05:06
As mentioned above a few times, my soapboxing is about bringing attention to the lack of further development and balancing in EVE economy. I could mention a huge range of examples of mistakes and missing features, but to mention one that most should have noticed, and which is rather recent to EVE, let me point you to PI. The yield and the needed materials from tier zero to tier 1 is a factor of 3000 units. This could just as well have been 300, thus the trading price resoulution would have been way better for market trading. With this huge gap from tier to tier you end up with prices so low that it is forcing a 0.01 isking game. In short the resoulution makes the price movements "clunky".

Why was this not caught before launching the PI minigame? Would we not expect ccp to use their "economist and crew" to take a look and comment on new additions, ? I am just saying that such issues should be addressed, and ccp needs to focus on what in Kjartans own words is one of the most influential aspects of EVE.

Kjartan:"Finally, there is the economy. Even though many people don't realize it, the economy is truly the pinnacle of social interaction. This is of course assuming that it is player-driven rather than being dictated by the designers. It is only in a truly player-driven economic environment that price fluctuations of items and commodities realistically start to reflect the sum total of the socio-economic landscape of the world. The market becomes a mirror of the activities of all participants in the game and it acts to change players' actions by its reflection.

Such a player-driven system doesn't strictly require a single shard to function, but it is catalyzed by the extended size inherent to single-sharding. A small economy will be manipulated by a few strong players and exposed to large fluctuations and instabilities. The larger the economy gets, the more resilient it becomes. Once beyond those instabilities, it truly starts to reflect the macro-economic landscape of the game-world, becoming an allpervading, autonomous, and ever-changing mass of social content that no designer could ever think of hand-crafting.
"

^^Just gonna leave that here..



dude you take so much crap its hard to weed through to your true arguement you start off going on about other games catching up on eve market and that eve/ccp need to keep ahead of the game people point out the fact that those games are no where near eve's market and even with player additions to the game they are still light years behind what eve has and you ignore them arguements and simply pick ones you might win

basicaly boiling down what you want is addons for eve. which will never happen eve is about giving players as level a playing field as possable to do with as you like. stop trying shade the fact you want more addons in eve so you can keep up by trying to make it seem eve's falling behind

addons for games won't help eve they help wow appeal to the masses be eve isn't a game for the masses its the game for the nerds among us

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.23 23:15:00 - [44]
 

^^WUT?

Bailey Remi
Posted - 2010.08.23 23:40:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
... The reason wow markets arent relevant is that they dont yet impact the gamebalance. With things like freeloot, zoned consensual pvp, and pvp crafting, ecology etc.. then these things arent that different anymore..




And this is the entire reason your argument about the complexity of Wow's "economy" is silly. It simply does not have one. An online economy can only be truly called one when it MATTERS within the scope of the game. Wow's auction house simply has no real purpose as part of the "endgame" setting. So all that supposed "complexity and uniqueness" you desire, is tools for **** that just doesn't matter.

If Wow had the things you mentioned up there...it would no longer be Wow. Period.

So your argument is...if Wow had all these completely different game-dynamics then it currently does (which might make it actually a good game) combined with the addons and auction house (stupid feature compared to the market) then it might be a superior economy to Eve...

I r cornfused... ugh

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.24 00:11:00 - [46]
 

Guys, I'm pretty sure that he's not saying that WoW's economy is even close to EVE's. He just wants more player control over the market.

There are pluses and minuses for players having more control over the market. The more control every player has, the smaller the margins, but the easier it is to get into trading.

What if EVE had a system that would automatically 0.01 isk people up until a given price input by the user? That would lead to bots being obsolete, but it would also see the end of the large buy/sell order spreads that we see today, unless there was some kind of cartel/manip attempt to control supply.

There are implications to his discussion that no one has even brought up or discussed yet. Because he said "world of warcraft" on the EVE-O forums, people put their troll hats on.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.08.24 00:12:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Bailey Remi

And this is the entire reason your argument about the complexity of Wow's "economy" is silly. It simply does not have one. An online economy can only be truly called one when it MATTERS within the scope of the game. Wow's auction house simply has no real purpose as part of the "endgame" setting.



I disagree. Endgame is especially dependent on a strong server economy to provide players with the necessary glyphs, gems, enchants and so on. I've played on the wow test servers and you really do notice the lack of an active AH market, which is why special NPC vendors usually get added as a substitute. You get a similar problem playing on a low population server, which is like operating in a remote region of Eve, except you can't ever get supplies from your neighbours.






Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.24 02:03:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Bailey Remi


If Wow had the things you mentioned up there...it would no longer be Wow. Period.

So your argument is...if Wow had all these completely different game-dynamics then it currently does (which might make it actually a good game) combined with the addons and auction house (stupid feature compared to the market) then it might be a superior economy to Eve...

I r cornfused... ugh


I never said that WOW would surpass EVE. The changes I said Blizzard could just start considering isnt really that huge. One Shard Auction House would not be that difficult to implement, and would be a natural development since you already have crossrealm grouping. The second stage would be remove/reduce bind on pickup and make crafted items more useful and actually always better then drops. This would mean harvesting materials would become a part of the game that would span the levels, thus low level and high level players would get interdependent. I dont think they will do this, just saying that its not impossible or even difficult. In any case new mmos are going to look at these issues, and we have already had some near hits like Pirates of the burning sea and Darkfall.

OFC EVE is at the core more advanced for many reasons, I am merely pointing out that if EVE loose this edge I think many would reconsider what game to devote themselves to. Sure we are getting Incarna and DUST, but knowing EVE PVE I am not holding my breath on this thing. Sure they both look awesome but visual fluff is a dime a dozen these days..

EVE is a corporate strategic simulation game, if that is lost in the build-a-game fluff filling I dont see the future for EVE that I used to see.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.24 02:08:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Lucyna
Guys, I'm pretty sure that he's not saying that WoW's economy is even close to EVE's. He just wants more player control over the market.

There are pluses and minuses for players having more control over the market. The more control every player has, the smaller the margins, but the easier it is to get into trading.

What if EVE had a system that would automatically 0.01 isk people up until a given price input by the user? That would lead to bots being obsolete, but it would also see the end of the large buy/sell order spreads that we see today, unless there was some kind of cartel/manip attempt to control supply.

There are implications to his discussion that no one has even brought up or discussed yet. Because he said "world of warcraft" on the EVE-O forums, people put their troll hats on.


Not more control.. Players have basically all the control in EVE..

More features and better tools for players to do and create the things they want to add to the game..

Banking, Billing, Auditing etc.. There are so many things players are struggling to create but cant really get good support on from the direction of the game. It took huge struggles just to get acknowledgment on issues like the shuttles and mission recycling.

To point back at the Kjartan quote.. (One I agree with 110%) CCP should look at that one every time they consider what they want to do with the game and what new stuff to create.

And as the core of this thread they need to consider that new games could just pick up these aspects of gaming worlds. Its a mystery why none have figured out these secrets yet..

Yansa Tholus
Posted - 2010.08.24 05:04:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Now I have recently been shown some of the developments in WOW and their markets..

I must admit I always used to say that for good market simulation and gameplay EVE was second to none. In many aspects EVE is still my choice when it comes to economy, but from what I have seen lately the advantage in EVE is def not that big these days.

The player created services and add-ons in WOW have blown my mind, they have managed to take a non economic focused game and created a lot of the features that was novel and unique to EVE. In some aspects WOW actually surpasses EVE due to the dynamic and specialization possible using add-ons.

The only thing that has still not dawned on any of the mmo alternatives seem to be the power of the "broker" and the importance of price historicity.

My point is if the alternative games keep developing these things, and they seem to be encroaching on EVEs turf a lot these days, what will keep MD and traders in EVE?

The focus of new content in EVE has not been very well focused or balanced in regards to markets and economics, and we have played for many years asking for even just minor improvement and features.. Now when there seem to be upcoming alternatives and better market gameplay what does EVE have to do to stay ahead?

OFC Incarna and DUST etc will eventually be able to pull some players from the atlernatives, but what will keep the traders and finaciers playing a game like EVE where the population is lower and thus less advanced?


So you failed in EVE and did try again in kids game and got some success and came in MD to chest beat? Rolling Eyes

Faccat
Posted - 2010.08.24 06:50:00 - [51]
 

So WoW has new features facilitating their current ability to post sell orders and buy from them.

The problem with your whole argument is that you claim they are closing the gap on the market and their underlying market has not changed. Stop saying that a GUI change is a change to the market. That's like saying a larger, easier to read font has changed a novel and bridged the gap between Twilight and Lord of the Rings.

What does Eve have to do to stay ahead? Nothing, years and years of nothing. These alternative games have made no changes to the market, they have just wrapped up the same old auction house in a different skin.

An iPhone app that browses the auction house is not a change to the market. An in game app that undercuts by a penny is not a change to the market. The exact same functions take place as before.

If you know of a new function in the market in another game, please, let us know.

In WoW, 99% of useful items can't be bought or sold in the market. If you want to make the dubious case that browsing that 1% on your iPhone is a major change closing the gap to Eve, then I'll even give you that WoW is now covering a small cosmetic part of 1% of the gap between the markets in Eve and WoW.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.08.24 07:10:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 24/08/2010 07:10:26
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania


I never said that WOW would surpass EVE. The changes I said Blizzard could just start considering isnt really that huge. One Shard Auction House would not be that difficult to implement, and would be a natural development since you already have crossrealm grouping. The second stage would be remove/reduce bind on pickup and make crafted items more useful and actually always better then drops. This would mean harvesting materials would become a part of the game that would span the levels, thus low level and high level players would get interdependent. I dont think they will do this, just saying that its not impossible or even difficult.



I don't think a single shard AH would be a desirable feature, any more than having all trade taking place in Jita would be a good thing. Seperate AHs per realm allow for more wow players to play the trading game, just like eve players can station trade in hubs other than Jita. They're extremely unlikely to do anything with bind on pickup gear's dominance, its a pretty core part of the game as its nearly the only measure of a character's power level once at the level cap. Changing it would be like allowing eve players to buy skillpoints for ISK.

You might see competition from a sophisticated MMO market, but it won't be from wow.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.08.24 08:01:00 - [53]
 

I regret to say that in my opinion Caleb is ignoring several EvE aspects but he also has a low knowledge about WOW's inner mechanics.

The WoW "across servers" facilities were implemented in order to mitigate highly gameplay disruptive factors. On many shards there's a now crystallized situation where one of the factions consistently beats the other, which in the past would tend to migrate away and create impossibly bad situations where you could find 1.e 20000 alliance characters vs 5000 horde.

This would lead to highly disrupt foundation features like arenas, battlegrounds (the large one worked best at 40v40), on some shards I played the dominant faction would have to queue up and wait for up to 40 minutes (2-3 hours in the night) in order to participate to a 15 minutes game, necessary to earn "points" to spend in gear, consummables and whatever.

Blizzard implemented cross shard features in order to hedge the players in and outflow off the shards and to heavily improve the waiting queues. Finally you could have your PvP (WoW's vision of it at least) in few minutes, you'd just play against a mix of multiple servers of your cluster (shards were clustered in groups of about 4-8, there was not a true "every shard <=> every shard" functionality.

This feature also had incredible socializing potential. I was a much known feral druid called Sahrokh, I would get people to stop and talk with me about my adventures and achievements thanks to the cross shard encounters.


Another feature Caleb does not suceed at grasping is that WoW's market is FANTASTIC... but you won't find the market in the AH.
Single or groups of players could setup their own "shops". Add ons would help the shop keeper at mundane tasks (replenishing of consummables, accounting and so on) and could even be used to "shout" the shop's activity in a capital town.
I was more of the "no advertisement" specialist. People would give me insane profits because I had every rarest and most ancient enchant both for "twinks" and current player base, including almost all of the recipes you can only get when your guild is "top server guild" (often my case).
Now, this was meta-market, demand and offer at its purest peak, with many graduations of pricing depending on how rare and how many recipes you could muster and how cheap your supplies were.

In EvE, instead, we have a standardized market and people meta-game with professions like banker, auditor, bond manager, alliance leader....

Each one game is good on its unique traits.
In both cases you only have to be able and find their inner structure, their philosophy.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.24 11:22:00 - [54]
 

1. Since there is no winning EVE, there really isnt a failing EVE. No you cant have my stuff. Since I am not actually quiting EVE, I am merely going on one of those periodical extended breaks. When the cons outweighs the pros in gameplay and entertainment its time for a break.. Thing is I think more and more players in EVE suffer from this attitude. In other games I believe its a lot to do with boredom when you put it aside, in EVE it is more disgruntlement at endless small flaws or shortcomings of the game as it is.

2. I dont claim to know jack about wow. As I said I dont play it my GF does. I was just intrigued by the quality of the add-ons and the fact that it has managed to take a sandbucket game and create a playable market profession. Sure that has little meaning compared to EVE, but meaning is not really everything in gameplay. The individual traders in EVE does not really play the markets to impact the rest of the playerbase, that result is a consequence not a goal. They play it for the achievement and gameplay.

I agree that its stupid to fix or change something if its working. However when you have left something untouched for several years some attention to potential fixes and upgrades is not an unfair demand. When I look at EVE today and when I log in I just get to a point where I dont see why I should not seriously consider alternatives. Sure there are none and might never be any, but the problem is still relevant imho.

In many players comments they say that EVE is just spreadsheets and an extended instant messaging program. The spreadsheet market part is ofc awesome as a playable economic simulation and the IM with a playerbase that kind of shuns wow kiddies is by itself nice, but my claim is that when it comes to gameplay it lags, and if you wont even focus upgrades and improvements on the core features, why bother?

Celaton
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.24 12:21:00 - [55]
 

TL;DR
Eve > WoW

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.24 13:12:00 - [56]
 

The bush, it has had more beating around it than on the proverbial dead horse as far as this thread goes.
So what's your point anyway ?

That CCP could and should focus more on market/economic tweaks and improvements ?
You'd hear no counter-argument to that from anybody in MD, we all think the same thing.
Problem is, CCP doesn't think any of it is urgent, and they decide what's going to happen.
And no, we don't exactly stand a chance to change their minds any time soon.

Or maybe that other games are slowly incorporating features similar to those in EVE into their market/economic systems ?
Well, good for them, if they can adapt. We should be worried about it because... why exactly ?
There already are games out there with similar market/economic systems, games that are far more similar in gameplay to EVE than behemoths like WoW, and still, you don't see any significant portion of the EVE population leaving for any of them JUST because of it.

What will keep MD and traders in EVE ?
Hmm... let's see... accumulated wealth on one hand, wealth mattering a lot on the other hand, and EVE being the least annoying MMO to play for a long time on the gripping hand.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.24 13:39:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Akita T
The bush, it has had more beating around it than on the proverbial dead horse as far as this thread goes.
So what's your point anyway ?

That CCP could and should focus more on market/economic tweaks and improvements ?
You'd hear no counter-argument to that from anybody in MD, we all think the same thing.
Problem is, CCP doesn't think any of it is urgent, and they decide what's going to happen.
And no, we don't exactly stand a chance to change their minds any time soon.

Or maybe that other games are slowly incorporating features similar to those in EVE into their market/economic systems ?
Well, good for them, if they can adapt. We should be worried about it because... why exactly ?
There already are games out there with similar market/economic systems, games that are far more similar in gameplay to EVE than behemoths like WoW, and still, you don't see any significant portion of the EVE population leaving for any of them JUST because of it.

What will keep MD and traders in EVE ?
Hmm... let's see... accumulated wealth on one hand, wealth mattering a lot on the other hand, and EVE being the least annoying MMO to play for a long time on the gripping hand.



My point was and is to draw attention to the issue. If we dont discuss these matters using the "dead horse beating" method we cant really make a difference. The business as usual will not get ccp attention.

The MD should be more together and constructive in pointing out issues in this "background niche" that is the economy and the markets. WOW is proof that 99% of the playerbase dont really think about these things, and tbh in real life I think you would be hard pressed to find people that have much understanding of economy. That does not however mean that it should be "left alone" RL results kinda shows how that is a bad thing..

Economy and Ecology is the KEY to get away from inflationary and end level gaming. EVE used to be really unique in not falling into that category, but lately I see it trending away from this..

The next step for the game NEEDS to be rebalancing and adding P2P features. This is extremely simple if focusing on economy. If the MD isnt the place to voice these issues and show and point out examples, I dont know where..

OFC I could just act disgruntled say "meh" and take a break, come back later and see if EVE warrant a fresh round of gametime. I just think its more constructive to try and point out there is a problem and that we as players can make a difference if we talk about these things instead of bickering and yelling scam in the recent IPOs..

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.24 13:47:00 - [58]
 


Just pointing out there might be a problem is not enough.
We're CONTENT with the current situation, but are fully aware it could be better.

Giving vague indications of what sectors could use some improvement is not much better either.
We already know roughly where things could stand to be improved, but you sadly have to take into account the manpower CCP would have to shove behind the changes, and stuff that takes a lot of man-hours to implement is doomed to failure from the start.

You have to come up with some SPECIFIC ideas of EXACTLY what could be done, and roughly how is that supposed to work with as little extra coding effort as possible.

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.24 16:26:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Just pointing out there might be a problem is not enough.
We're CONTENT with the current situation, but are fully aware it could be better.

Giving vague indications of what sectors could use some improvement is not much better either.
We already know roughly where things could stand to be improved, but you sadly have to take into account the manpower CCP would have to shove behind the changes, and stuff that takes a lot of man-hours to implement is doomed to failure from the start.

You have to come up with some SPECIFIC ideas of EXACTLY what could be done, and roughly how is that supposed to work with as little extra coding effort as possible.



+1

We are all for suggestions.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.08.24 18:28:00 - [60]
 


Dynamic facility prices.

Nerf infinite Hangar space

Rental based on hangar space

Dynamic broker fees. Flat fee goes up percentage goes down

Market orders and Contract numbers serious increase.
(Boosting public order and corped players instead of the current reverse model)

Improve/Introduce better corp/alliance/public Player to player slots/service renting. Thus effectively taking over more of this aspect of npc importance..

Allow Jumpdrives everywhere as long as it is downwards based on new jumpdrive skill level 5 being 0.1 difference and level 1 being 0.5

Calculate corp to npc corp standing using CEO +/- percentage based instead of the summation avg. Thus promoting that value of corps in regards to High sec POS anchoring. Also/Or let players launch POS individually and if so let that be directly taxable. Basically fix POS features..

Just a few of the ideas that could be refined to make some relevant changes.. Oh and of FIX LAG and FIX PI..


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