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Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.03 00:16:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

Originally by: Kail Storm

Stuff


Its 841 DPS and reloading added in 5 Hammerhead 2`s and 3 BCS which you need the other low slot for a Co Pro or PDS, So 920 is way to high.

Nice quoting btw :D
Congratulations, you've done the unthinkable and went and looked at the downsides of missiles. Bravo, really *clap* *clap* *clap* You need a few tackle mods to deal full damage to a ship that is smaller than you (protip: this also applies to other weapon systems, though not as much as missiles) And *gasp* you need to give up some tank in order to do full DPS? That's absurd!
Originally by: Kail Storm

Geddon with Drones and 3 DMG Mods and Scorch=981 DPS with Ogres and has 45km+10 or its 840 With Med Drones and doesnt do 1/4 DMG hits to Support Ships etc.


You conveniently seem to forget things like geddons being susceptible to tracking disruptors, using cap to fire their guns, and not having variable damage types.
Originally by: Kail Storm

But to not get off Pace you said 26km Range was rediculous but it isnt its what Faction Ammo hits at 100% of the time since it has 30k range-4km off Missile Excel. And while Swappping DMG types is great it takes 10 secs so you usually dont in fleet fights.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not fond of large fleet fights. Once you get more than 30-40 people to a side the ship your in tends not to matter. Hell, unless you're an FC/booster your PRESENCE doesn't matter, so whining about ship balance in that respect has never been at the top of my priorities list (also with large fleets, if no one is target painting the primary [and this is a fleet that would have use for a ship like the raven] then your fleet sucks)
Originally by: Kail Storm

Hybrids dont need anything except 12% Range increase from Null Down and tighter overlap of Ammo DMG/Range. And Insta Reloads like Lasers so Hybrids could use there new Ammo seamlessly while they close range.


No, they need more damage. Maybe give rails more range. Wouldn't help much in pve, but for pvp more range = better dps ammo/tracking from not having to use lr t2 ammo, for blasters, I've said it before and I say it again: a geddon ODs a mega at 7km, there is something seriously wrong with that.

Originally by: Kail Storm

Adding blanket DMG the more I think about it makes little sense as Shield Hyp`s could be 1400 DPS 100k Gank boats Vindi`s got to 1650 DPS...That is more Base DPS than a Non DD`d titan, with Huge Web Bonus`s No thanks.


A non-DD'd titan? If it's actually fit to shoot things (which tbh I don't know much about from a practical standpoint, but if it's not why would you even compare the 2?) puts out more dps than a sieged dread IIRC, so you sir are full of ****.
Also the vindi is an awesome ship, but as others have pointed out, the mach would still be better. Being able to insta anything reasonably small while going several KM/s will win out vs the DPS of 2 BSs. And guess what? They STILL won't be able to apply that damage most of the time, unless something gets into web range and yes, if you get within a faction blaster BSs webrange you should be 100% ****ed, as outside web range it's pretty useless.


Originally by: Kail Storm

When I was all for Proj Buff It seem`d at first that there ammo switches wernt enough but guess what making those 3 Ammo types all same tracking/Range but diff Dmg type and a few minor tweaks made Minni the FOTM that it was in the Nano age except now Amarr is also great. In the line of Buffs it really is Caldari`s Turn as 2006 Was Galante Domination :)P and Cald has always been the bastard red headed step child of PVP.
2 Things made projectiles awesome:
Tracking enhancer changes
Artillery changes
The other stuff was nice as well, but the 30%Shocked falloff bonus of a TE and the 75%ShockedShocked bonus of large arties was just nuts. Oh and when was the last time gallente got BUFFED? I was here for the torp buff, ECM buffs etc but I've yet to see any significant gallente buff...

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.03 03:31:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 03/09/2010 03:32:44
"No, they need more damage. Maybe give rails more range. Wouldn't help much in pve, but for pvp more range = better dps ammo/tracking from not having to use lr t2 ammo, for blasters, I've said it before and I say it again: a geddon ODs a mega at 7km, there is something seriously wrong with that.
"
-Yeah More Bad quoting Wink Clap Clap Clap Good job pointing out Downsides of Blasters less range than Lasers and other weapons systems for more DPS Yah yah

See how Easy it is. In reality your arguing about Caldaris tanking ast he reason it sucks could be argued just as easy foir Galante...Blasters arent broke its the Big Heavy tanks that slow em down to get into range, Shoot to bad they dont need any work I guess according to you.

Obviously Fleets arent your strong suit as you said, your to busy emptying Carebears Hangars in Random WH`s Wink

You are making it sound like Caldari are some of the best ships in the game and you are crazy.
The reason Gal never got a significant buff is they were OP`d from the begining. Ask any relly old eve player and they will tell you Gal PWNed for a huge span of time the entire time Amarr sucked when Gal had 90% Webs They were Melting.

And the target painting doesnt just limit the Torps but defines there DPS. TD`s and other stuff dont matter as much in a 30+ man fleet.

Just because you dont like 30+ doesnt mean it should be on the short list, I hate Gal as a Race but have been fighting for a boost for them for a while Now because It promotes fair gameplay and is way way more fun.

There is nothing wrong with Geddons whooping Mega`s Asses at Range plus like I said Insta Reload adds 10 secs of what 550 DPS avergae in a Gal fight where you rush the enemy and have to swap ammos. Gal needs to be short range Blasters are like shotguns why in the world should they have the most DPS and huge Range? Thats just lol.

Insta Reloads=Average DPS Boost
12% Range gives you the same Bonus as Scorch gets to its Faction Close range Ammo type. As Null is very short now.

You are stupid to think the Arty is why Minnie is OP now, its because it has 3 Ammo choices that can all do great from 5-20km using ACS and because ACS are so easy to fit. Hell on BS`s they hit to 40km Easy and can swap ammo`s with no tracking loss.

Before you were stuck to 1 DMG type for Close range and Amarr did more Raw DMG and had more Optimal by changing this it worked to Minni`s str`s rather than giving them lumps more DMG.

TE`s did help but plenty of setups are viable that dont use them still.

And go look up a Titan, they have 6 Cap Weapons slots all UnSieged, also since Tank is so important most Titans now are All Tank and no Weapons Mods, used as Cap gankers which works out o 5-7k DPS, but 3.2 mil DMG volleys...Do the math or look at an unsieged dread and double the DPS. Most are 900ish, Most titans in EFT are 1650 some less because You need DD,Jump Bridge and alot use cloaks so you even lose 1 turret often.

And what the hell ECM BUFF? You mean the Falcon Nerf? Or changing Torps from 80km AOE Weps like the olden days :)?
They both need work, Double missile speed making a Cruise platform actually bearable.



Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2010.09.03 05:31:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm
Cald has always been the bastard red headed step child of PVP.


Erm. Always is a little strong. I mean, I know you started playing well after Caldari were OMGWTFgreat, but once upon a time....

But isn't that missing the argument anyway? Hybrids need help in such a way that works for both Caldari and Gallente. Which is roughly equivalent to saying (two years ago) that projectiles need help and not limiting arguments to ACs xor artillery. The basic fact that we're dealing with two races with different sets of bonuses is immaterial on race and critical on bonuses.

So the question boils down to something like "what would make hybrids viable across range of engagements similar to lasers, projectiles, and missiles (both long and short range) without obsoleting another weapon system?"

The current solution is interesting: either do massive damage with very little range or do low damage at extreme range. And while this is just speculation, I think that's the intended paradigm and no number of forum posts will change it. Blasters will always wtfpwn at point blank and rails will always plink from several moons away.

So let's stick within that framework and not even bring missiles or drones to the table, no? There has to be some sort of way to balance hybrids within the set paradigm. And without yelling about all the other weapon systems out there. Maybe we could try that?

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.03 05:37:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

-Yeah More Bad quoting Wink Clap Clap Clap Good job pointing out Downsides of Blasters less range than Lasers and other weapons systems for more DPS Yah yah


Again using the mega and geddon as a comparison:
Mega, in its optimal, puts out 9% more DPS than the geddon.
Geddon has 300% more Range, with the ability to instantly switch out to having 1000% more range at the expense of a mall drop in DPS.
That difference is roughly equivalent to you not being able to hit a sieged dread with torps for full damage.

Originally by: Kail Storm

See how Easy it is. In reality your arguing about Caldaris tanking ast he reason it sucks could be argued just as easy foir Galante...Blasters arent broke its the Big Heavy tanks that slow em down to get into range, Shoot to bad they dont need any work I guess according to you.

Actually Im arguing that caldari aren't bad at all, and that you're just ****y trying to shoehorn them into rolls in which they do poorly, when they have others in which they excel. The problem here is that even in their INTENDED role, blasters don't really outperform lasers or projectiles (missiles not mentioned because it's a less straightforward comparison)
Originally by: Kail Storm

Obviously Fleets arent your strong suit as you said, your to busy emptying Carebears Hangars in Random WH`s Wink

Someone with your battleclinic record has no business making personal attacks when arguing game balance, kthanx.
Originally by: Kail Storm

You are making it sound like Caldari are some of the best ships in the game and you are crazy.


Raven drake falcon scorp widow and rook would like to have a word with you.
Originally by: Kail Storm

The reason Gal never got a significant buff is they were OP`d from the begining. Ask any relly old eve player and they will tell you Gal PWNed for a huge span of time the entire time Amarr sucked when Gal had 90% Webs They were Melting.

Not sure what you consider as "really old" but I've been here, non-stop, for 4 years now. I remember nanodomis being ridiculous, as well as nanophoons. I remember the eos being able to field 5 heavies, I remember the first couple tier 2 BCs selling for more than their BPOs cost. Blasters were pretty good around 06-07, but there have been huge buffs to literally every non-gallente weapon system since then, and nothing but nerfs for the gal pilots. And 90% webs really weren't that big of a deal, because the issue was (and still is) that you had to get within 10km to actually USE the damn things (and really unless you're dual prop fit a scram and a web is just as bad now).

Also all the best gallente ships back then were drone boats (nanodomi, nos domi, 5 heavy eos, 5 heavy myrm, 5 med ishkur etc)
Originally by: Kail Storm

And the target painting doesnt just limit the Torps but defines there DPS. TD`s and other stuff dont matter as much in a 30+ man fleet.

YOU don't matter as much in a 30 man fleet. And guess what? Having less DPS in massive gangs isn't NEARLY as bad as having a <10km range. You're not going to be getting damage in on any KMs if you have to MWD to each new target, and say what you will about torp speed, they still go faster than my mega.

Originally by: Kail Storm

Just because you dont like 30+ doesnt mean it should be on the short list, I hate Gal as a Race but have been fighting for a boost for them for a while Now because It promotes fair gameplay and is way way more fun.
Caldari have good ships for larger fleets, you're just complaining that missiles aren't as good, to which I say: so what? 2 of the 3 caldari BSs are already good in larger fleets, why do they ALL have to be?


Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.03 05:55:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

There is nothing wrong with Geddons whooping Mega`s Asses at Range plus like I said Insta Reload adds 10 secs of what 550 DPS avergae in a Gal fight where you rush the enemy and have to swap ammos. Gal needs to be short range Blasters are like shotguns why in the world should they have the most DPS and huge Range? Thats just lol.
Huge DPS AND range? If only there was a ship out there that let me project over 1k DPS at ranges greater than 20km, maybe make it so that said weapon system uses no cap, is unaffectedly the second most effective EWAR in the game, and has variable damage types! Nah, that'd just be ridiculous...

Reload times are an issue, but they're not the biggest one: The fact is that a blaster ship just BARELY outperforms a similar laser boat, and doesn't even do so at the outer 30% of non overloaded, non-bonused and non-faction webifiers. THAT is why I want more damage for blasters; not because they're not the highest already (though they're not, missiles beat them on the BS level), but because they don't do much even given idealized EFT-friendly damage application.
Originally by: Kail Storm

Insta Reloads=Average DPS Boost
12% Range gives you the same Bonus as Scorch gets to its Faction Close range Ammo type. As Null is very short now.

Which would translate into what, 1 fifth the actual range boost? Looking at percentages without looking at the base numbers for range gives you as lopsided view, not to mention that eve, say, a 20% boost to range bonus of null would still put it below multifreq on pulses for optimal (and it'd be doing less DPS as well)

Originally by: Kail Storm

You are stupid to think the Arty is why Minnie is OP now, its because it has 3 Ammo choices that can all do great from 5-20km using ACS and because ACS are so easy to fit. Hell on BS`s they hit to 40km Easy and can swap ammo`s with no tracking loss.

Should have mentioned the base falloff buff, my bad. Still, the variable damage is nice, but the falloff bonuses are the big reason ACs are useful now.
Originally by: Kail Storm

And go look up a Titan, they have 6 Cap Weapons slots all UnSieged, also since Tank is so important most Titans now are All Tank and no Weapons Mods, used as Cap gankers which works out o 5-7k DPS, but 3.2 mil DMG volleys...Do the math or look at an unsieged dread and double the DPS. Most are 900ish, Most titans in EFT are 1650 some less because You need DD,Jump Bridge and alot use cloaks so you even lose 1 turret often.

Mothership with heavy drones also does crap DPS, what's your point? Saying that a ship that is in NO way built to put out lots of DPS gets outdamaged by a smaller ship proves nothing; my rifter also ODs a freighter, but I don't see you whining about that...

Originally by: Kail Storm

And what the hell ECM BUFF? You mean the Falcon Nerf? Or changing Torps from 80km AOE Weps like the olden days :)?
They both need work, Double missile speed making a Cruise platform actually bearable.

It was either ECM as a whole or the falcon specifically that buffer a fair while ago, and it was about the same time as one of the big nano nerfs. Do your homework before you start to rabble about the good old days that you weren't even a part of. The AOE thing for torps was removed because it was just silly, and when they nerfed the range they also reduced the refire rate by 33%, that's a freaking huge buff IMO (I'd have no problem halving the range of my blasterthron if it meant putting out 50% more DPS)

Tyfuz
Posted - 2010.09.03 08:07:00 - [126]
 

Nice post, i agree 100%

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.03 09:24:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 03/09/2010 09:31:10
There were good old Days in Eve and No this is not my only toon, I have had many over the years.

It comes down to this you will never ever Be able to out Range Pulse lasers, so what are you really asking for?

What would make you stop whinning about Hybrids being broke?

Over the last year I have had alot of time to play and got a few more toons and my Gal Char is fine in most respects, in fleets a Mega while being Underwhelming is very much more welcome than a Raven PERIOD.

You say Im shoehrning them and trying to fit them in a role they dont or arent supposed to fill and yet you complain about Range of pulses and how blasters need huge amounts of range which they were never intended to hav.? Saying that Blasters cant be used in longe range fleets because you cant burn to each target but you still have rails why not use those?

Its the same argument, you just have a vested interest in yours. I want some of my Fav ships to be usable in fleets which they arent now, You say Hybrids suck and cant compete with others in theres. You tell me I have a Viable BS in the Rokh but how Hybrids are broke? And the Scorp, its a 1 way trip in any 15+ engagements.

I want hybrids fixed as well but im sure the major wholes I see in Missiles can be fixed as well. And there are holes in them, hell I would take just a speed buff on cruises to see if that did help some of the targeting problems but I can tell you firsthand from all my fights over the years and specifically the last year in which I cant count by now with 30 players plus that the Diff between just the Cerb and the Tengu`s velocity bonus and the Drakes makes a massive differance in sighting in on the next target.

@80km its 12 Secs for a C missile to hit that is 2 Volleys of most Turret weapons in a fleet thats massive hell in 10 on 10 its massive now cut it in half and the Turrets get 1 volley and some change which is more than fair considering missile fleet would have to prepare for reps etc and be more defensive based. This isnt even taking into account the wasted volleys because of Lag, the Lag is so bad turrets are still firing or not firing missiles are horribad.

Shooting secondaries is much more difficult with the lag monster and the extra speed really does help the pilot see the DMG effect on the target fast enough to refire on the next, and I think it would benefit while still be a downside.

I want to know whats your reason against it you would still be insta DMGing me just by half the time is all.

TL DR
What is your specific Idea what needs to be done?

Cant say im trying to use missiles for what they wernt made for when you want same range as lasers or Proj.

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.09.03 09:33:00 - [128]
 

You are getting missiles in a hybrid thread, balance of them is not the discussion now. Boosting hybrids will help the Rokh as well as Gallente ships.

I do not think missiles really get the short end of the stick overall, but I agree there is not much place for them in lagfests.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.03 09:39:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Zilberfrid
You are getting missiles in a hybrid thread, balance of them is not the discussion now. Boosting hybrids will help the Rokh as well as Gallente ships.

I do not think missiles really get the short end of the stick overall, but I agree there is not much place for them in lagfests.


Your right its off topic, I still want to see the well thought out Ideas that Camb has.

Bruce Kemp
Minmatar
Skull's Reloaded.
Posted - 2010.09.03 10:51:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: VanNostrum
Neutrons are too damn difficult to fit on any ship



What you talking about Wilis.

Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.03 16:08:00 - [131]
 

5% damage increase after all level 5

SLIGHT INCREASE TO OPTIMAL AND FALLOFF

SLIGHT base VELOCITY INCREASE

Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.03 16:47:00 - [132]
 

SLIGHT INCREASES!

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2010.09.03 18:08:00 - [133]
 

A few days ago I dusted off my old Deimos that I had since I-forgot-when. Apart from taking it out a few times when I lived in 0.0 because I was bored with the Vaga I almost never used it. Blasters have their problems but the ship has a even bigger one: speed, or the lack of it. With no rigs, wirings or overload best MWD-speed I can come up in is 1728 m/s.

Someone, I forgo who, said: What if Minmatar is the fastest race outside of scram range, but Gallente the fastest within. That makes sense really because with blasters you need to cut the distance to your target as fast as you can, or you will surely lose.

So please, boost the base speed of the ship, with 10%, so when I activate the mwd I can come up to 2063 m/s. Then maybe the Deimos will be more popular(fun) to use.


Then the blaster class as a whole need a big boost in tracking, a minor reduction in energy use I belive and maybe even a increase in optimal range. With how much I don't know.

A damage boost is the last thing I would give blasters before the other stuff I mentioned above been tweaked. While more damage sure is nice for Vindicator pilots everywhere Wink that alone won't make them more usefull for non-serpentis ships.

Then we have rails, but it was a long time ago I used a rail-mega and rail-cruisers always felt like a bad joke, so no idea what they really need.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.04 01:00:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

There were good old Days in Eve and No this is not my only toon, I have had many over the years.


My main flies titans, has been around since 03 and is a 200mil SP toon Very Happy

Originally by: Kail Storm

It comes down to this you will never ever Be able to out Range Pulse lasers, so what are you really asking for?

What would make you stop whinning about Hybrids being broke?


Well, I would like my mega to outdamage a geddon at 13km (the edge of overloaded standard web range), and I would like to have blasters that deal more than the paltry 9% extra DPS that they currently do at point blank. Think of it the other way around: if lasers only had a 9% range increase over blasters, they'd have an optimal of about 5km on BSs. THAT is the problem with blasters. Not that they have bad range, or that they use cap or that they have a fixed damage type, it's that despite the fact that all of their downsides are working as intended, the ONE thing they're supposed to do well, they don't.

Originally by: Kail Storm

Over the last year I have had alot of time to play and got a few more toons and my Gal Char is fine in most respects, in fleets a Mega while being Underwhelming is very much more welcome than a Raven PERIOD.
Rokh and scorp are both better than the mega for fleets, are you really whining because ONE caldari BS does not outperform gallente in large fleets?

Originally by: Kail Storm

You say Im shoehrning them and trying to fit them in a role they dont or arent supposed to fill and yet you complain about Range of pulses and how blasters need huge amounts of range which they were never intended to hav.? Saying that Blasters cant be used in longe range fleets because you cant burn to each target but you still have rails why not use those?


Where? Show me ONE post where I said blasters need more range. Rails could use them, because the ability to use closer range ammo translates into more DPS at range, but what blasters need is DAMAGE. I think I've literally mentioned it at least once in every post I've made here so far...
Originally by: Kail Storm

Its the same argument, you just have a vested interest in yours. I want some of my Fav ships to be usable in fleets which they arent now, You say Hybrids suck and cant compete with others in theres. You tell me I have a Viable BS in the Rokh but how Hybrids are broke? And the Scorp, its a 1 way trip in any 15+ engagements.
Actually I'm at the point in eve where I can fly all races, with nearly maxed skills in just about everything that's relevant to pvp. (I still need amarr BS V, not that I need it to get good use out of an abaddon) Aloe, the rokh is made viable because its absurd range lets it use closer range ammo, thereby not only giving it good DPS at the ranges most fleet fights standardize themselves at (150km, we're talking about longer range fleets here), but allowing it to easily hit ranges all the other sniper ships can only achieve by seriously gimping their fit (with my skills I only need a hybrid locus rig and one TE to hit 250km with spike). I wouldn't say it's as good as the amarr/caldari counterparts in a general sense, because the need for 250km optimal ships is limited and the better DPS/volley damage tends to be useful more often, so it wouldn't be made horribly OP by boosting hybrids, but one decent rail boat between the 2 races that use them, and one that still gets outperformed by its beam/arty counterparts...

As for the scorp, it gets primaried because of how OP ECM can be, which while it may suck getting primaried (unless you're bait fit :D ) if it's because of how incredibly useful you are in a fleet then you really shouldn't be complaining.
Originally by: Kail Storm

Cant say im trying to use missiles for what they wernt made for when you want same range as lasers or Proj.
Seriously, have you even read ANY of my posts?

EFT Worrier
Posted - 2010.09.04 03:24:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: EFT Worrier on 04/09/2010 03:35:46
Edited by: EFT Worrier on 04/09/2010 03:28:41
Originally by: Cambarus

Well, I would like my mega to outdamage a geddon at 13km (the edge of overloaded standard web range), and I would like to have blasters that deal more than the paltry 9% extra DPS that they currently do at point blank.

Think of it the other way around: if lasers only had a 9% range increase over blasters, they'd have an optimal of about 5km on BSs. THAT is the problem with blasters. Not that they have bad range, or that they use cap or that they have a fixed damage type, it's that despite the fact that all of their downsides are working as intended, the ONE thing they're supposed to do well, they don't.



This is really the crux of it -- blasters only do slightly more damage than lasers but at a fraction of the range. Maybe this was fine when webs were stronger and scrams didn't turn off MWDs at 12km, but it sure as hell means blaster ships are the suck now.

The nail in the coffin though is that blasters & rails consume around 1/3rd the cap of lasers but take 10 secs to switch ammo (vs lasers' 0), and can't switch damage types (like projectiles).

The only conceivable fix involves adding speed/agility to blaster ships or range to blasters or both. Just buffing blaster damage is still going to mean blaster ships will be unable to apply damage due to being the slowest ships with the shortest range weapon. Rails aren't doing any better as beams are the current sniper kings as well.

The other thing is, the death of blaster ships was all widely discussed and predicted around the time of the scram/MWD and web changes, over 12 months ago.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.04 06:41:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 04/09/2010 06:42:25
Originally by: Kail Storm

Hybrids dont need anything except 12% Range increase from Null Down and tighter overlap of Ammo DMG/Range. And Insta Reloads like Lasers so Hybrids could use there new Ammo seamlessly while they close range.



"No, they need more damage. Maybe give rails more range. Wouldn't help much in pve, but for pvp more range = better dps ammo/tracking from not having to use lr t2 ammo, for blasters, I've said it before and I say it again: a geddon ODs a mega at 7km, there is something seriously wrong with that."-Camb Yeah more Fail qoutes

This seems like advocating more range and DPS, You say there is something wrong with the OD of only 7km not that it needs to heavily outdamg the Geddon in its small bandwidth. i disagree I think the Geddon should out DPS the Mega but at 10km so the extra 12% I want that you say we dont need would help I think.

Also later I mention insta reloads which would add DPS, it actually takes a Mega from 1k DPS to and increases its dps 1/6th over 1 minute which is monsertous.

Ive seen very little fights with Gal where they didnt switch from Null to AM whoch is a 10 sec DPS nerf.

DMG increase is not all it needs.

Moose Burger
Posted - 2010.09.04 08:50:00 - [137]
 

Yeap

All blaster needs is to have the exact same stats as lasers, except with kinetic/thermal

I mean. who needs unique weapons right =/ afterall, no one in the right mind will think on how to, you know, abuse blasters dps in its optimal, on the other hand, changing the whole weapon to mirror an other is even more better.


Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.09.04 13:25:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Moose Burger
Yeap
All blaster needs is to have the exact same stats as lasers, except with kinetic/thermal

I mean. who needs unique weapons right =/ afterall, no one in the right mind will think on how to, you know, abuse blasters dps in its optimal, on the other hand, changing the whole weapon to mirror an other is even more better.


Blasters should also hit their targets with a 1000 point Multispectral ECM blast also.... Rolling Eyes

Thank you for your constant trolling Moose Burger, since you are pretty much the lone voice of dissent, it makes it seem like railguns needing some working over a shared opinion with most Eve players.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.04 15:20:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

Originally by: Cambarus

"No, they need more damage. Maybe give rails more range. Wouldn't help much in pve, but for pvp more range = better dps ammo/tracking from not having to use lr t2 ammo, [b]for blasters, I've said it before and I say it again: a geddon ODs a mega at 7km, there is something seriously wrong with that."


This seems like advocating more range and DPS, You say there is something wrong with the OD of only 7km not that it needs to heavily outdamg the Geddon in its small bandwidth. i disagree I think the Geddon should out DPS the Mega but at 10km so the extra 12% I want that you say we dont need would help I think.

I don't want more range, I want enough DPS that when fighting at 10-12km the damage reduction from falloff is still not enough to make pulses hit harder than blasters on large ships. The whole idea behing amarr is that they hit out really far (it's what, 45km with scorch on an unbonused BS?) 10km is not long range, it's not even medium range, it's flat out close range. Blasters should be winning at close range assuming all other factors are the same, period.

Insta-reloading would be nice but guess what? Multifreq STILL outranges null. That means that the core problem does not get changed. Geddon will still OD the mega at 7km (which should be changed to at least 13km, because web range is pretty much the defining factor in close range fights) and even in the optimal of the blaster boat (keeping in mind that on a BS this is only 4.5km) the difference in damage should be more than 9%.
Originally by: Kail Storm

Also later I mention insta reloads which would add DPS, it actually takes a Mega from 1k DPS to and increases its dps 1/6th over 1 minute which is monsertous.

Ive seen very little fights with Gal where they didnt switch from Null to AM whoch is a 10 sec DPS nerf.

DMG increase is not all it needs.
More damage would fix all those problems. No need to make blasters more like lasers, just give them a more clearly defined role. Like I said, if the difference between the range of lasers and blasters was the same as the difference in DPS, megapulses with multifreq would have an optimal of 5km.

Dusica
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.04 15:37:00 - [140]
 

btw beam tachyon dps is ok but alpha pales to 14oomm really tested with nightmare and machariel gang felt pretty useless

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.04 18:44:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 04/09/2010 18:49:23
9% in Eve is rather large considering its like a added Weapon rig slot. And it shouldnt be much more than that. I`d say 12% max.

The problem is that Ammo`s like thorium and mostly the rest except for AM are basically useless, I would be for more range but DMG if any needed needs to be very slight.

Making a lot more DMG so it can fight in Falloff makes no sense because when the HUGE DPS is in that small bandwidth there is no fighting back. This makes ships that are shield tanked like Hyp using TE`s way OP`d Spewing 1400 DPS out and having 30% More Range Doing it.

If they Added maybe 15% Range to null and Added DMG onto specific faction DMG types or added 3 Completely new T2 Ammos that were in between null and void this would help alot without making a General DPS increase. Hell the mega spews out 810 Gun DPS @ 7k with a 120k Tank 7k to me is close range since its both web and scram range.

12k is not close range until they make webs and scrams on BS`s longer range the same way Turrets are this is still the range Gal was supposed to fight in. Making Ammo tighter and actually useful along with Insta Reloads the Mega within 11k Would whoop the Geddons ass seeing as it has 20k Tank it should assuradly get into position with a bit more range Ammo types that Step down DPS equally with Range and do it instantly.

Mega now is a formidable ship against any BS sized target, the problem is as Numbers go up you have to engage differant targets so some of the Blasters failings are changings of the times. Just as missiles are struggling for there place in large warefare so are blasters.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.04 20:51:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

9% in Eve is rather large considering its like a added Weapon rig slot. And it shouldnt be much more than that. I`d say 12% max.
OK, so since that same number can be applied to range(a third range rig would only give that much as well) I say we lower the optimal of pulses to only be 5km with multifreq in. Since after all, 9% is such a big difference yeh?
Originally by: Kail Storm

The problem is that Ammo`s like thorium and mostly the rest except for AM are basically useless, I would be for more range but DMG if any needed needs to be very slight.

So after spending a ridiculous amount of time arguing that we should not be asking for more range for blasters, you ask for more range for blasters. Nice.

Originally by: Kail Storm

Making a lot more DMG so it can fight in Falloff makes no sense because when the HUGE DPS is in that small bandwidth there is no fighting back. This makes ships that are shield tanked like Hyp using TE`s way OP`d Spewing 1400 DPS out and having 30% More Range Doing it.
If the difference in damage was as huge as the difference in range a megathron would OD a sieged dread, and its tech II high damage ammo would put out 10k DPS. If a megathron gets to within 4.5km of you, it should be game over, period. At 24km how much of a chance do you think a blaster boat stands against something with pulse lasers, autocannons, or missiles? Why should the same not be true for fighting under ideal circumstances for a blaster boat? At this point you are literally arguing that even under absolutely ideal circumstances for one pilot and horrible circumstances for the other, it should still be only a slight difference between the manner in which the 2 ships perform, which is just stupid.

Originally by: Kail Storm

If they Added maybe 15% Range to null and Added DMG onto specific faction DMG types or added 3 Completely new T2 Ammos that were in between null and void this would help alot without making a General DPS increase. Hell the mega spews out 810 Gun DPS @ 7k with a 120k Tank 7k to me is close range since its both web and scram range.
Large neutrons with null have less range AND DPS than mega pulses with multifrequency. Giving more types of ammo in between null and AM won't do anything when every last one of them is PROVABLY worse than mega pulses (and to a less extent ACs)
Originally by: Kail Storm

12k is not close range until they make webs and scrams on BS`s longer range the same way Turrets are this is still the range Gal was supposed to fight in. Making Ammo tighter and actually useful along with Insta Reloads the Mega within 11k Would whoop the Geddons ass seeing as it has 20k Tank it should assuradly get into position with a bit more range Ammo types that Step down DPS equally with Range and do it instantly.


12km is close range as long as a tech II web can hit out that far. Mid range being around 24-26km (standard wd range) 12km is certainly not long range, the range at which pulses are supposed to be better, so arguing that a geddon ODing a mega (and at 12km it'd be by more than the paltry 9% megas get at 4.5km) at that range is anything other than horribly imbalanced just doesn't make sense.
Originally by: Kail Storm

Mega now is a formidable ship against any BS sized target, the problem is as Numbers go up you have to engage differant targets so some of the Blasters failings are changings of the times. Just as missiles are struggling for there place in large warefare so are blasters.
The problem with blasters is not that their niche is to small, but that even in said niche they're not much better than other ships (geddon will do the same thing, but easily be able to hit out to 45km+ with the same setup)

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.04 21:19:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 04/09/2010 21:22:34
Range and DPS are not equal at all. Yes range is great but arent as big a factor as smaller Hacs or BC`s which are much more nimble than the BS`s.

IE If a Mega Rushes a Geddon by the time the Geddon turns around to try an maintain his range the Speeding/MWDing Mega gains a huge amount of range in Which the Geddon is still turning a 180 to run. In Heavy plated BS`s the Agressor/Hunter who is closing range is always gonna have the advantage because Humans take 3/10 sec to react+lag+Huge turn around which is using agility when the Mega rushing in a Straight line is simply str8 line speed.

I agree a 80km Range is hard to close but a 15km gap is very [email protected] m/s. I agree pulses are better in general but once the Mega is at 8km Its very very hard for a Scrammed web`d Plated BS to escape at all.

So I could say that You using the 30km Range is Shoehorning and the Megas role is station/Gate stuff and even better with support, rather than fighting a Geddon in its strong suit. Just like Missiles arent supposed to be used in fleets.

Also you said a bunch that you wernt asking for Range but then would say its not fair the geddon has way more...The whole Time I said 12% More Range for all ammos and maybe adding more T2 Ammos with more DPS and range etc.
12% Range+3% DMG along with Insta Reload wins at its intended close range, all ready its hard to beat a BS VS Mega at 5km in Scram and Web. Now with Seamless ammo swapps with ammo types maybe with Hi Alpha Type Ammo or Fast firing depending etc it will work but blanket DPS isnt gonna work and still be fair.

But peeps need to realize eve is a blob game now and Gal might be the best when in Losec or on a Gate and not in a fleet fight/Furball where there are multiple opponets at range, just like Im stuck with small gangs/POS bashing in a Raven.

Like I asked before what Specific changes do you want. Not "More Dmg, Tracking" but 15% More DPS etc etc. With 15% Base Velocity increase, Etc Etc.

See I also disagree with a Base Vel change because Shield tanked Ships would pwn, and Once in Range Megas already kick ass, so making them faster ontop of it makes them OP.

I dont want Dram changes to where it makes all close range weapon types useless.

So please tell me exactly what changes you want.

With full Trans at 7km the Mega does 480ish DPS to a Geddon, WHile Geddon does a whopping 270ish, In a DPS Graph Mega wins hard until 7k where it closes up, then it wins until 12km.




Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.04 22:48:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm

Range and DPS are not equal at all. Yes range is great but arent as big a factor as smaller Hacs or BC`s which are much more nimble than the BS`s.
And this affects how the BSs work against each other how exactly?
Originally by: Kail Storm

IE If a Mega Rushes a Geddon by the time the Geddon turns around to try an maintain his range the Speeding/MWDing Mega gains a huge amount of range in Which the Geddon is still turning a 180 to run.

That only looks at half the picture. It takes the mega just as long to align as the geddon, assuming both start off sitting perfectly still the mega is going to automatically try to keep his orbit at ~25km, while the mega will burn straight for him. Both ships have almost the same speed and agility, so unless the mega is psychic and knows which direction he has to burn in, the odds are pretty even that he will catch the geddon at all, let alone catch him quickly enough to overcome the damage he took burning into range.
Originally by: Kail Storm

I agree a 80km Range is hard to close but a 15km gap is very [email protected] m/s. I agree pulses are better in general but once the Mega is at 8km Its very very hard for a Scrammed web`d Plated BS to escape at all.
It's not 800m/s, it is, at MOST, 55m/s (the difference between the 2 with no plates or anything with overloaded MWDs and perfect skills). The issue of getting away also goes both ways, in order to fight at all the mega has to put itself into a situation from which it cannot escape, whereas no other race has to do this. (THAT, BTW, is why the diemost sucks. Not because of all the other crap people whine about, but because it's only useful at a range from which it cannot dissengage, which is a big deal for a ship class whose main advantage is the ability to run when things go badly)
Originally by: Kail Storm

So I could say that You using the 30km Range is Shoehorning and the Megas role is station/Gate stuff and even better with support, rather than fighting a Geddon in its strong suit. Just like Missiles arent supposed to be used in fleets.

As I have said a hundred times before, it's not that the geddon works out to 45km that's the problem, it's that the geddon works almost as well within web range as the mega, while being fit to work out at 45km.

Originally by: Kail Storm

Also you said a bunch that you wernt asking for Range but then would say its not fair the geddon has way more...
12% all ready its hard to beat a BS VS Mega at 5km in Scram and Web. Now with Seamless ammo swapps with ammo types maybe with Hi Alpha Type Ammo or Fast firing depending etc it will work but blanket DPS isnt gonna work and still be fair.

It's only hard to beat a mega at 5km if that's where the fight starts, and even landing on top of someone you've probed out won't mean landing within 5km if they're moving at all. It should be damn near impossible to beat a similarily sized blaster boat if you've been caught and are within its optimal, but as it stands even at point blank the difference is negligible.

Originally by: Kail Storm

But peeps need to realize eve is a blob game now and Gal might be the best when in Losec or on a Gate and not in a fleet fight/Furball where there are multiple opponets at range, just like Im stuck with small gangs/POS bashing in a Raven.


Not being useful in 150km Fleets and not being useful in your own supposed niche is not the same.

Originally by: Kail Storm

Like I asked before what Specific changes do you want. Not "More Dmg, Tracking"

15-20% bonus to large blaster damage, maybe make the vindi have a 25% bonus instead of the 37.5% one it got because its damage wasn't that great for the supposed best in its class. Blaster ships don't need more speed, that would make them matari. They don't need more range, that would make them amarr, what they need, is to be better at their intended purpose, and for that to happen, the only thing they need is more damage.

Moose Burger
Posted - 2010.09.05 03:32:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Moose Burger on 05/09/2010 04:13:32
Then easy.

Bring two megathrons. Fit for propulsion/nano. Overwhelm Geddon.

As long as two blaster ships > 1 laser boat, i dont see how it is imbalanced.

This game is a MMORPG. it is difficult to drop exactly a web and a scram in every ship when you have 20-50 people in the fleet. In that case, it becomes easier for ships to close their distance with speed setups

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.05 07:00:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 05/09/2010 07:05:10
Camb 20% of the Megas 840 DPS=170 or ther abouts that is 1k DPS before Drones. Apposed to the Geddons 750 using Navy MF

1k DPS with Drones=1170 [email protected] with 126k EHP Basically makes it a Vindi Minus the Web

The Shield Hyp goes from 1040 DPS to 1248 with 5.8 optimal but 20km falloff and with med Drones adds 170 DPS=1418 DPS

Shield Brutix @7km with Null is now 536 but will be 643 add med drones and you get 803 [email protected]

A Proteus with 3 MagStabs and 110k EHP tank goes from 550 [email protected] using Null goes to 660 DPS and with Med Drones goes to a HUGE [email protected] with a Long Scram of 12km.

The previous [email protected] 4km using AM will be replaced by 768 DPS and 928 with Drones and a Tank like a Mega with a Sig radius the size of a cruiser, also it does BS DMG but has Med Gun tracking so imagine what it will do to frigs once they get webbd. 2k Alpha with a 2 sec cycle time=Dead frig in 3 volleys. Or 8ish Secs.

See the problem with this? Some ships in Gals line up that are already good now will be extremely OP`d, while the Diemost will still Die and wont be worth using over the Rax.

And Lastly IMO the Scariest new ship will be the Nuetron Shield Domi Scary as Hell, current 815 Gun [email protected] is now
978 DPS now Add the Heavies it can easily handle and you get 1463 [email protected] with the agility of a plated BC and with 435 DPS of no Jammable DPS and Facemelting 978 DPS that is as powerful as a Raven all with 100k EHP so as much as the Raven.

As Much EHP as a Gank Raven with as much Gun DPS but 435 DPS Drones and is 912 m/s with a 12.5 Sec align time[Same as Drake but with 3x the DMG]....Scary as ****.

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.09.05 09:56:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Moose Burger
Edited by: Moose Burger on 05/09/2010 04:13:32
Then easy.

Bring two megathrons. Fit for propulsion/nano. Overwhelm Geddon.

As long as two blaster ships > 1 laser boat, i dont see how it is imbalanced.

Hahaha, wait, are you serious?

You have no problems with ships until they perform at less than 50% effectiveness of another ship? Do you fly tier one frigates? Do you fly tier 1 cruisers? They perform about at 50% effectiveness of their higher tier brothers, and this is a good thing in your book.

Get the hell out of here, and leave some more mildly sensible people to discuss.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.09.05 10:04:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Zilberfrid
Originally by: Moose Burger
Edited by: Moose Burger on 05/09/2010 04:13:32
Then easy.

Bring two megathrons. Fit for propulsion/nano. Overwhelm Geddon.

As long as two blaster ships > 1 laser boat, i dont see how it is imbalanced.

Hahaha, wait, are you serious?

You have no problems with ships until they perform at less than 50% effectiveness of another ship? Do you fly tier one frigates? Do you fly tier 1 cruisers? They perform about at 50% effectiveness of their higher tier brothers, and this is a good thing in your book.

Get the hell out of here, and leave some more mildly sensible people to discuss.


He's been trolling throughout the thread, don't feed him.

Akisawa
Caldari
Path Of The Cursed
Posted - 2010.09.05 10:10:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Moose Burger
Edited by: Moose Burger on 05/09/2010 04:13:32
Then easy.

Bring two megathrons. Fit for propulsion/nano. Overwhelm Geddon.

As long as two blaster ships > 1 laser boat, i dont see how it is imbalanced.

This game is a MMORPG. it is difficult to drop exactly a web and a scram in every ship when you have 20-50 people in the fleet. In that case, it becomes easier for ships to close their distance with speed setups


Moose, this is not 2v2 WoW arena. You are really getting ahead of yourself here. Claiming "its fine for those ships to suck, just bring more of them" is biased as hell

EFT Worrier
Posted - 2010.09.05 10:24:00 - [150]
 

yeah you can't just straight-up buff blaster damage by too much else it gets rapidly ridiculous. Both rails and blasters could use a /small/ dmg increase (eg: 2-5%), but the best solution for blasters I believe is changing blaster t2 ammo range to have 2 or 3 times the current falloff.



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