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El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.08.21 07:56:00 - [1]
 

This is a sad day.

The gist, a player, who was banned for RMT from Lineage II has sued NCSoft for making a game to addictive and not warning him about it.

Claims that after being banned that he could not do daily functions and could not function in society.

Of course playing a video game for 20000 hours for 5 years had nothing to do with that according to him. (That's 11 hours a day for those that need to figure it out).

Anyway I found it amusing, what's sad is a judge let the lawsuit proceed....

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/20/ncsoft-sued-for-making-lineage-ii-too-darned-addicting/

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2010.08.21 08:14:00 - [2]
 

How ridiculous.

Addiction has nothing to do with the game company, it's in the hands of the player.
This guy probably couldn't maintain social relationships because he now has no income after he was banned for RMT.

Personally speaking, I play EVE more than 11/h day (maybe 15-16h/day), and have been doing so for 5 years. However when my computer broke 6 months ago and I had no more access, it didn't destroy my life, I just moved onto motorbikes for a few months.

Hell my computer is broken once again, no EVE for 2 months, no withdrawal symptoms.
Video game addiction is bull****, and anybody saying otherwise is an idiot (who better to say so than someone who has been accused of addiction in the past)
If it doesn't give you withdrawals, it's not an addiction. Compulsion maybe, addiction no.

Judge should be kicked off the bench for entertaining such a frivolous lawsuit.

Ealthor
Amarr
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
Posted - 2010.08.21 08:29:00 - [3]
 

Stupid.

Games aren't addictive; there's no physical dependance no matter how much you use it. To be addictive something has to cross the blood-brain barrier and change the chemical balance in the brain.

A game is merely encourages habit forming behaviour. There's a big difference; anything at all can be habit forming if handled incautiously.

The world's gone mad, MAD I tells you.

DarthJosh
DEATHFUNK
Posted - 2010.08.21 09:17:00 - [4]
 

to be honest, about damn time this issue starts to get addressed.

nay and ''this is stupid'' sayers just don't know how this business runs.

im not saying stop making games, no at all. but it's time to start having some ****ing responsibility.

Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.08.21 10:43:00 - [5]
 

Thing is MMO game are addictive and are designed to be addictive, most use the Skinner box concept for example. Skinner boxes are a tool that scientists use to study cognitive processes and basically certain reinforces behavior by a "push button get candy" principle and then goes further by creating more complex patterns of behaviour.

This article is pretty basic in itself but links to many interesting sources.

Another funny footnote is that CCP wrote a chronicle loosely based on this.

So the simple truth is MMO games can be addictive and becoming addicted to something due to behavioural patterns or a physical dependence to your own neurotransmitters can be just as harsh as say smoking or ****** addiction.

0oO0oOoOo0o
Posted - 2010.08.21 10:45:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 21/08/2010 10:48:18
Aww this guy stole my idea, I posted it here first:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1350048&page=1#15
If he wins any money with that, I guess I'll have to sue him for paying me some royalties or something.

Ella C'Tronix
Posted - 2010.08.21 10:52:00 - [7]
 

It's weird to me that everyone's first reaction is "lol that guy is dumb" and so forth.

A lot of games are designed in a deceptive manner, and are designed to attract players and then keep them locked in. It is not ridiculous to assert the notion that companies that promote these sort of games be held accountable for what they are doing.

Am I suggesting that anyone who struggles with addiction be awarded some giant sum of money? No. It would not be unreasonable, however, to expect a little more responsibility in the form of educating or warning people somehow... or not rewarding around-the-clock gameplay.

Addiction can become a very real and tragic thing. A variety of mental illness. Persons who struggle or have the potential to struggle with addiction of various kinds are not some tiny obscure minority, it's a very present & large contingent of the population in North America and abroad. It's one thing for people to be poor at managing their time properly, but it's another thing altogether that so many of these games are so insidiously designed that it's a miracle that anyone short of being a complete MASTER of self control and time management is not in some kind of serious trouble. These aren't merely "fun games that people want to play a lot of".. a lot of psychological and social engineering goes into their creation. It doesn't take a psychologist or rocket scientist to figure out the basics though:
In "WoW" and other games like it, persons are forced into tangible (monetary, time, etc) and emotional investment into their characters and things, with a giant gameworld before them and then suddenly they find themselves having to complete days and days and days of work to continue with their character.. all according to random number generator related probability and content designed to occupy groups of individuals for a particular amount of time of the calendar year before the next batch is prepared. The content needs to be completed with a group, during arranged times, for chances at random treasures which trickle into the group each week, slowly improving the group as a whole.

If someone is able to make the realization that they are not making good use of their time due to the extreme number of hours they are spending playing this game, they are forced to make a decision: Do I leave this game that I've already put 34523525 years of my time into, leaving my friends behind and this cool character i've worked so hard on or do I keep going? Not everyone is going to make the smart decision, they might not be able to. It is DESIGNED to keep them there. There really is no in-between. You will not have the equipment you need to succeed in the more difficult encounters if you only play casually. There are serious virtual costs, as well, keeping you busy when you're not in a raid or whatever so that you can afford to repair all your things, and to bring the materials you required (special potions and consumable items and things). The only way to be responsible and 'casual' and not play that often in WoW is to make a conscious decision to not be as good as everyone else, and not care about what everyone else on the server is doing - which essentially makes it instantly not so fun and attractive to play. Not something a lot of people can do. Especially when the servers broadcast to everyone when someone has completed a challenging boss for the first time on the server, or people are standing around in towns wearing super cool looking equipment that you can only get by trading your soul and donating 60 hours of your time per week.

I remember quite well that World of Warcraft was the only fulltime + overtime job where I was paying a company to work.

And WoW is one of the "safe" ones.. it's ridiculous, but a lot of those other MMOs are much much much more time consuming.

I'm not sure if I was an "addict" or if I just liked seeing things through. Either way, it's a slippery slope and the people making these games know it.

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2010.08.21 11:10:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 21/08/2010 11:12:42
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Thing is MMO game are addictive and are designed to be addictive, most use the Skinner box concept for example. Skinner boxes are a tool that scientists use to study cognitive processes and basically certain reinforces behavior by a "push button get candy" principle and then goes further by creating more complex patterns of behaviour.

This article is pretty basic in itself but links to many interesting sources.

Another funny footnote is that CCP wrote a chronicle loosely based on this.

So the simple truth is MMO games can be addictive and becoming addicted to something due to behavioural patterns or a physical dependence to your own neurotransmitters can be just as harsh as say smoking or ****** addiction.


What you describe is compulsion, not addiction.
It's very simple:
****** <-- (her01n, ****ing word filter) is addictive. You stop taking it and you have a physical response (even while unconscious)
Ciggies are addictive: you stop smoking them you get a physical reaction (usually extremely short temper and nail biting)
Alcohol is addictive: you stop taking it and you get a physical reaction: dizziness, the shakes, the sweats, irratibility etc
Weed is compulsive: you stop taking it, and you get bored
Computer games are compulsive: you stop playing them, and you get bored.

Claiming computer games are addictive is a pathetic excuse for the weak willed.

Keeping in mind, I am speaking as someone who has been playing computer games at any and every opportunity since around the age of 4. I learned to read playing computer games on my old Amiga 500. I've found ways to make money that enable me to play computer games rather than work in a job, and when playing EVE I will pull an all nighter at least twice a week to earn a few extra ISK.

By any textbook definition, I am an addict.
However I can safely say I am not, an addict will do anything to maintain his addiction. Crack addicts sell their belongings to get more crack, her0in addicts will steal from family members and friends to get a little more of that powder, hell a dedicated smoker will forgo bread and milk just to buy another pack of ciggies.
You don't see me doing any of this to buy a computer that's capable of running a game. I just get a little bored, and find something else to fill my time.

Only people who need to take responsibility are leeches like this. He stumbled onto an easy source of money (RMT) and when that was taken away he threw the bottle out of the pram.
They should counter-sue him for breach of agreement (EULA violation), and plagiarism (selling property of NCSoft as his own), also slander and libel originating from the lawsuit in the first place.

Ella C'Tronix
Posted - 2010.08.21 11:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 21/08/2010 11:12:42
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Thing is MMO game are addictive and are designed to be addictive, most use the Skinner box concept for example. Skinner boxes are a tool that scientists use to study cognitive processes and basically certain reinforces behavior by a "push button get candy" principle and then goes further by creating more complex patterns of behaviour.

This article is pretty basic in itself but links to many interesting sources.

Another funny footnote is that CCP wrote a chronicle loosely based on this.

So the simple truth is MMO games can be addictive and becoming addicted to something due to behavioural patterns or a physical dependence to your own neurotransmitters can be just as harsh as say smoking or ****** addiction.


What you describe is compulsion, not addiction.
It's very simple:
****** <-- (her01n, ****ing word filter) is addictive. You stop taking it and you have a physical response (even while unconscious)
Ciggies are addictive: you stop smoking them you get a physical reaction (usually extremely short temper and nail biting)
Alcohol is addictive: you stop taking it and you get a physical reaction: dizziness, the shakes, the sweats, irratibility etc
Weed is compulsive: you stop taking it, and you get bored
Computer games are compulsive: you stop playing them, and you get bored.

Claiming computer games are addictive is a pathetic excuse for the weak willed.

Keeping in mind, I am speaking as someone who has been playing computer games at any and every opportunity since around the age of 4. I learned to read playing computer games on my old Amiga 500. I've found ways to make money that enable me to play computer games rather than work in a job, and when playing EVE I will pull an all nighter at least twice a week to earn a few extra ISK.

By any textbook definition, I am an addict.
However I can safely say I am not, an addict will do anything to maintain his addiction. Crack addicts sell their belongings to get more crack, her0in addicts will steal from family members and friends to get a little more of that powder, hell a dedicated smoker will forgo bread and milk just to buy another pack of ciggies.
You don't see me doing any of this to buy a computer that's capable of running a game. I just get a little bored, and find something else to fill my time.

Only people who need to take responsibility are leeches like this. He stumbled onto an easy source of money (RMT) and when that was taken away he threw the bottle out of the pram.
They should counter-sue him for breach of agreement (EULA violation), and plagiarism (selling property of NCSoft as his own), also slander and libel originating from the lawsuit in the first place.


Some people develop honest-to-God addiction from these things, complete with psychological trauma and physical reaction/withdrawal.

There's more to it than being "weak willed".


Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2010.08.21 11:29:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 21/08/2010 11:46:08
In the case of computer games, I severely doubt it.

When's the last time you heard of someone having a psychotic episode cause they couldn't play a game.


The whole concept of computer game addiction draws attention from, and belittles actual addictions. You know, people addicted to substances that slowly kill them.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.21 11:38:00 - [11]
 

Becoming addicted to video games is the same as becoming addicted to running, cycling, soccer, etc. Sure it happens to some people, but that is for the person to deal with. There arent any physically addictive stuff that plays a role.

And a company has nothing to gain by getting you a junky. Sure they want you to play your game every month, but ideally only once per month. This guy pays 15 dolar (or something) per month to play 11 hours a day. With this he probably uses at least 10 times more server resources than an average player who also pays exactly the same.

Ealthor
Amarr
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
Posted - 2010.08.21 11:43:00 - [12]
 

"Someone needs to take responsibility"

Yes. The players. Doing anything to the exclusion of everything else will cause the issues that this guy is 'suffering' from. Because there is no 'hook' in the past-time to cause a physical dependancy it was entirely down to his own poor judgement that it became a problem.

There is nothing games companies can do to force you to play their games; they can encourage you in the strongest terms but there is no physical mechanism employed to subvert your own ability to make good choices in the way that drugs do.

Ella C'Tronix
Posted - 2010.08.21 11:46:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ella C''Tronix on 21/08/2010 11:54:09
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
In the case of computer games, I severely doubt it.

When's the last time you heard of someone having a psychotic episode cause they couldn't play a game.


The whole concept of computer game addiction draws attention from, and belittles <b>actual</b> addictions. You know, people addicted to substances that slowly kill them.


It's not uncommon. I'm sure you could talk to a few doctors and conduct some research/google-fu. I've also seen it first/second hand. It's happened to some pretty upstanding people. (and by "happened", i'm not suggesting they're a victim who was not at all responsible for their own demise). And imo, goes hand-in-hand with the kinds of things you're talking about.. it isn't just some kids/kids in man bodies saying "i cant quit! im addicted!!11!!". There are people with serious issues out there. It isn't trivializing the things you call "actual addictions". That isn't to say that there wasn't a problem there to begin with, but that can be said about all addictions I think.

What if "hypnotism" was a real thing, the way we see it in cartoons and movies and it was a tactic literally employed as part of these game's business strategy? Would you change your tune then? Where do you draw the line?

People are ultimately responsible for themselves and their actions/non-actions. But that shouldn't be a license for companies to have free reign to create highly addictive products/entertainment/substances/whatever without at bare minimum, informing their clientele of how to recognize addiction and where to go if they think they have a problem related to their continual use of their product. There shouldn't be limits placed on innovation, markets should remain open and free and all that jazz, but there are real dangers to having ungoverned entertainment forms that are designed to be addictive the way some of them are. Especially in cases where there is an UNLIMITED amount of advancement to be had simply based on how much time spent into it, and ESPECIALLY when there is some motivation to be quick about the gradual progression.

The beauty of something like eve is that there are a few checks and balances in place. The skill system being one. People may want to obtain ship X and grind out the ISK or LP or whatever for waaay too long to get it, but there is nothing forcing you to do anything at any particular pace to participate in the game. There are some games where just after you've committed time and money enough to the game to the point that you care about it and the character, your continuing existence and ability to play the game depends on hours and hours of constant work.

Originally by: Ealthor
"Someone needs to take responsibility"

Yes. The players. Doing anything to the exclusion of everything else will cause the issues that this guy is 'suffering' from. Because there is no 'hook' in the past-time to cause a physical dependancy it was entirely down to his own poor judgement that it became a problem.

There is nothing games companies can do to force you to play their games; they can encourage you in the strongest terms but there is no physical mechanism employed to subvert your own ability to make good choices in the way that drugs do.


I respectfully disagree, in general. (I don't know all the fine details of the case in particular). There is a science at work. Of course, some developers are just making cool ass games that are fun to play, and addictive for obvious reasons. And not everyone is going to be affected the same way.

It goes much deeper than this, but as a less than stellar example of one angle of things- just look at all the fuss over the tobacco industry and their advertising over the years. Where I am from, you're not even legally allowed to display the packaging - it is hidden, concealed from sight and has to be asked for by name. I don't have statistics i'm comfortable with using, but it's reducing the number of people/kids/whatever taking up smoking.

0oO0oOoOo0o
Posted - 2010.08.21 12:51:00 - [14]
 

Actually this guy has a solid chance, if he has a good lawyer. There are enough studies on the addiction potential of MMOs. Few years ago I read such a study about WoW and how the dopamine level in the players brain was equal to the one when someone takes hard drugs. If the lawyer can prove that the company made game mechanics to intentionally abuse that mechanism in order to induce addiction (e.g. by an "awesome" reward system) and then profit from it (player stays subscribed for years) instead of warning from the addiction, we could have a winner. Play computer games for 4 years and earn US $ 3 million for that - that's truly the American way of life. Damn, I wish I were American.

Now think of the consequences, if he wins and creates a precedent case. Hordes of $-hungry US lawyers are looking for some addicted kids in order to sue all that dozens of MMOs, especially those who have a financially potent company behind them. This could crush the whole MMO industry in worst case.

jason hill
Caldari
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.08.21 13:25:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: jason hill on 21/08/2010 13:25:29
Linkage

http://kotaku.com/5499061/accused-game-cheater-gets-knife-through-head-and-survives



i dont wanna play online games in asia

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.08.21 13:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Actually this guy has a solid chance, if he has a good lawyer.

Chances are it's covered in the TOS that no one reads.

Smooth Shoperator
Posted - 2010.08.21 13:38:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Actually this guy has a solid chance, if he has a good lawyer.

Chances are it's covered in the TOS that no one reads.


TOS doesn't supercede the law when it comes to due dilligence.


So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.08.21 14:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Smooth Shoperator
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Actually this guy has a solid chance, if he has a good lawyer.

Chances are it's covered in the TOS that no one reads.


TOS doesn't supercede the law when it comes to due dilligence.



You're saying that NCSoft hasn't taken every reasonable precaution when it comes to warning him about the addictive properties of their game? Perhaps, I don't know what warning labels there are on NCSoft games but I'm fairly certain there's usually plenty of them around.

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.21 17:32:00 - [19]
 

I never never seen warnings on MMORPGs about addictive nature. And why should they have warnings? its a damn game not a pack of smokes.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.21 17:45:00 - [20]
 


****ing ******ed gorram moronic USofAian ****ty scumm-sucking, bottom-feeder enabling, ass-munching idiotic legal system that doesn't automatically throw this aberration out on grounds of utter stupidity...
Rolling Eyes


Yes, games are DESIGNED to be ATTRACTIVE, because that's how they survive and thrive, by attracting as many people as possible to play. If some people with particularly susceptible mental structures fall off the deep end and lose sight of reality in favour of this better fictional universe, it's not the game maker's fault.

This is akin to blaming the victim of a sexual assault for the assault, because she was dressing too provocatively.
Oh, such legal systems do exist in this world, and they're equally asinine.


SCREW YOU, USA FEDERAL JUDGE WHO ALLOWED THIS TO PROCEED, YOU'RE A DAMN LUDDITE !
AND SCREW YOU, USA SOCIETY, FOR CREATING A GENERATION OF HUMANS THAT LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD BECOME EXTINCT IF ALL WARNING LABELS VANISHED OVERNIGHT !

ceaon
Posted - 2010.08.21 17:51:00 - [21]
 

i am addicted to h2o can i sue someone over this i never got a warning about this addiction

Yesh
Unjustified Ancients of MuMu
Posted - 2010.08.21 17:53:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Yesh on 21/08/2010 17:56:00
Was going to type lots of stuff, but I'm just reeling. What next? Sue the government cos your life is crap? After all it has to be some ones fault (except your own of course). My only fear is this may have been attempted already.

edit - actually I have more than one fear.

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.08.21 17:53:00 - [23]
 

Banned for real money trading.

User Agreement

7. Paragraph 4

"You may not sell or auction any Lineage II accounts, characters, items, currency or copyrighted material for real-world money or items or services of any value, nor may you assist others in doing so."

Unless you're some troll from the underbelly of a bridge to narnia the ToS and EULA are treated as a legal contract between the user and the game provider. If you break that contract in any way shape or form then the provider has every right legally to end service.

Gaming addiction is not the subject matter here it is a device to misdirect and to bypass the legal contract we agree to everyday and fail to take responsibility for their own fault.

Chipan Asty
Posted - 2010.08.21 18:07:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Lia'Vael
Gaming addiction is not the subject matter here it is a device to misdirect and to bypass the legal contract we agree to everyday and fail to take responsibility for their own fault.


This.

I hope the imbecile gets taken to the cleaners and has to pay crippling court costs. No doubt when this happens he will try to sue his parents for providing him with an inadequate genome.


Lady Sarine
Posted - 2010.08.21 18:34:00 - [25]
 

My graphics card is starting to fail. I'm pretty sure this is due to the load of running two eve clients at once, yet there was no warning from CCP that overloading the cards could damage them.

Like most people I didn't read the terms of contract because I couldn't be bothered and just assumed that nothing bad could happen. I'm going to get compensation from CCP to replace my GPU, and if that doesn't work, I will sue society in general for making me apathetic with an attention span too short to read the terms of contract.

I can't loose!




Dario Wall
Posted - 2010.08.21 19:04:00 - [26]
 

Use to play Lineage II a few years back. I'm pretty sure after an hour or two of being online, a little message pops up in the chat giving you a reminder that now might be a good time to take a break.

So if the guy chose to stay online and ruin his own life by ignoring things around him for a game, it is no ones fault but his own.

LuZhi
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.08.21 19:59:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
Anyway I found it amusing, what's sad is a judge let the lawsuit proceed....


Of course the judge let it proceed. The entire "justice" system has been set up the past few decades on the idea of legalized theft. It's not just the plaintiff, it's the lawyers too. They lobbied hard to build a system like this where the common man could legally steal from businesses so they could take part of the loot. If you steal without the protection of the legal system you run the risk of injury from your victim or prison from the state. Naturally the smart ones use the law to steal, thus reducing their risk to virtually nothing.

Ak'athra J'ador
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.08.21 21:15:00 - [28]
 

I love the warning labels on paint "don't drink, contains lead".

just remove the warning labels and let evolution do its thing.

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.21 21:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: LuZhi
Originally by: El'Niaga
Anyway I found it amusing, what's sad is a judge let the lawsuit proceed....


Of course the judge let it proceed. The entire "justice" system has been set up the past few decades on the idea of legalized theft. It's not just the plaintiff, it's the lawyers too. They lobbied hard to build a system like this where the common man could legally steal from businesses so they could take part of the loot. If you steal without the protection of the legal system you run the risk of injury from your victim or prison from the state. Naturally the smart ones use the law to steal, thus reducing their risk to virtually nothing.
Funny you mention this, I recently saw an interview with a general counsel of a multinational company. He mentioned that many of the European "global players" that are active on the US market have built special reserve assets in case they are sued in the USA. He reported of law firms in the US, that did nothing else than sue Europeans companies in order to get a settlement deal, as the Europeans are afraid of risking a trial under the uncertain US law with the jury system even if there is a small chance to lose. Basically that's a legally protected blackmailing ploy, provided to the world by the US legal system.

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.21 21:30:00 - [30]
 

Don't these companies have lots more monies than the addicts? Why not just draw out the legal process until the guy runs out... then counter sue Twisted Evil


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