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souhyeahright
Posted - 2010.09.08 13:19:00 - [841]
 

Originally by: The Djego
However since the blaster ship is a knife fighter, it should be a lot better at knife ranges, what includes fighting undersized tacklers. The web nerf took away a lot of the solo ability's of blaster ships, since all the new mechanics are supposed to work exactly at blaster ranges.

Scram frigates are also knife fighters, and need to be able to survive at knife ranges, which involves mitigating most/all the DPS of bigger ships if flown properly. Neither should obsolete or wholly nullify the other.

Quote:
Quote:
Pointing out that the blaster ships can't use their guns to nuke small stuff at range is meaningless (and rather disingenuous) when we're talking about scram/web frigates, which are *entirely useless* at ranges >10 km.


It is not meaningless, since it gives ac and puls fits a range where they can deal with them well(what counts double if we look outside of solo pvp). However medium blaster ships don't have this range at all.

Except a scram frigate isn't going to be at 20 km from those ships for more than a couple of seconds unless its pilot is dumb. However, it *has* to be at <10 km to be of any use - that's the entirety of its purpose. More to the point, those '20 km' guns are not particularly effective against properly-flown tackle ceptors at 15-25 km - you can tickle them, and force them off after a couple of minutes, but it's not zomgwtfbbq totalhelldeath unless the inty pilot is dumb and lets you get low transversal. A 90% web, by contrast, is instadeath to any close-range tackler, no matter how specialised - you're exposed to basically the full DPS of the larger ship with no way to evade or mitigate it; even the tankiest frigate will be toasted in less than 20 seconds. It simply does not compare.

Originally by: souhyeahright
Yes a blaster ship(what includes the Brutix) should be fairly agile and fast.

There's a big difference between "fairly agile/fast" and "most agile by a large margin and only a tiny fraction slower than the fastest." Did you actually look at what a boost of "at least 10%" to agility and speed would do, or did you pull that number out of your ass?

Quote:
Not the fastest, but fast enough to have a reasonable chance to catch a similar sized target in a short sprint, to get in range. After this, it should be superior at controlling range within web range against similar sized ships(what a stronger web would provide).

Your earlier, pre-edit version of this post, where you said you wanted something along the lines of 'flawless damage projection and the ability to easily catch all targets' was far more accurate and honest in terms of what you seem to be going for and what your proposals would deliver.

Fistme
Posted - 2010.09.08 17:21:00 - [842]
 

So by that same logic used to counter the idea of improved webs on blasters ships is not being used against the argument you are using against blaster ships.

So what i got out of you're posts is that it's ok to keep blaster ships overnerfed so long as it does not impede on the roll of t1 sub 500k frigates. Great...



Anywhoo there is 2 ways to adress the issues present with blaster ships.

A. increase agility/speed
B. increase potency of webs


at this point it sounds like you are against both solutions. Please inform us as to what you would think is a "reasonable" buff to adress this 3+ year long nerf.

Akisawa
Caldari
Path Of The Cursed
Posted - 2010.09.08 17:33:00 - [843]
 

Originally by: Fistme
So by that same logic used to counter the idea of improved webs on blasters ships is not being used against the argument you are using against blaster ships.

So what i got out of you're posts is that it's ok to keep blaster ships overnerfed so long as it does not impede on the roll of t1 sub 500k frigates. Great...



Anywhoo there is 2 ways to adress the issues present with blaster ships.

A. increase agility/speed
B. increase potency of webs


at this point it sounds like you are against both solutions. Please inform us as to what you would think is a "reasonable" buff to adress this 3+ year long nerf.


How the fck potency of webs will help blaster ships.
Webs have 10 km range.
Blasters shoot up to 10km fine.
The point is, blaster ships will never ever get to that 10km coz they slow.

Changing blaster AMMO directly affects only blaster ships.
Changing webs directly affects whole EVE.

Come on, turn on some logic once in a while please.

Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Maelstrom Crew
Paradigm Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.08 17:45:00 - [844]
 

I still like my AB bonus idea. Increase the thrust given but also increase the mass so you go a little faster than with a MWD but have turning issues like fitting an oversized AB. You end up with a straight line dragster that can get close and stay close (WS won't stop there speed) but you can't just go AB around everywhere as you can't turn.

Fitting AB uses less CPU and PG than a MWD saving some fitting for tank/weapons.
Your catching ability increases, but have to use with skill.
Your damage dealing increases as you control range better whilst webbed/warp scramed.
You also have increased survivability to get back to gates / stations / out of web or scram range.

Thats two of the main issues fixed with a couple of decent secondary benifits. Tweak the fitting of the ships that need it to increase tank/dps and you have a unique ability to Blaster ships.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.08 18:05:00 - [845]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 08/09/2010 18:06:08
Originally by: souhyeahright
Originally by: The Djego
However since the blaster ship is a knife fighter, it should be a lot better at knife ranges, what includes fighting undersized tacklers. The web nerf took away a lot of the solo ability's of blaster ships, since all the new mechanics are supposed to work exactly at blaster ranges.


Scram frigates are also knife fighters, and need to be able to survive at knife ranges, which involves mitigating most/all the DPS of bigger ships if flown properly. Neither should obsolete or wholly nullify the other.


Assuming both are solo, you can't take out the blaster cruiser/bc/hac/CS at point blank, it can't catch you. They don't obsolete each other.

In a small gang scenario(or gang vs 1) it is not so much a knife fighter, it mostly stops ships from warping away and immobilizes them. With the change however it becomes a lot harder to lock it down at point blank, since it can defend itself against this tactic and smaller ships. So it becomes able to go after the bigger hulls again or it can try to run. Both very important things if you look at it as solo/small gang platform. Also very important if you work solo under sentry agro where light drones are no option(at least not longer than 20s).

Originally by: souhyeahright
Quote:
Quote:
Pointing out that the blaster ships can't use their guns to nuke small stuff at range is meaningless (and rather disingenuous) when we're talking about scram/web frigates, which are *entirely useless* at ranges >10 km.


It is not meaningless, since it gives ac and puls fits a range where they can deal with them well(what counts double if we look outside of solo pvp). However medium blaster ships don't have this range at all.

Except a scram frigate isn't going to be at 20 km from those ships for more than a couple of seconds unless its pilot is dumb. However, it *has* to be at <10 km to be of any use - that's the entirety of its purpose. More to the point, those '20 km' guns are not particularly effective against properly-flown tackle ceptors at 15-25 km - you can tickle them, and force them off after a couple of minutes, but it's not zomgwtfbbq totalhelldeath unless the inty pilot is dumb and lets you get low transversal.


Except a non dual prop frig is slower than most medium sized hulls with MWD. You lose tackle to dual neut setups on many mini ships very quick and got shot while it burns away. You get ****d if the target is not solo at medium range. And 15km is already very save vs any kind of medium blaster ship exept a Neutron + TE setup on a Diemost/Astarte. This ships don't got webs, so you are free to orbit them at close range.

Originally by: souhyeahright

A 90% web, by contrast, is instadeath to any close-range tackler, no matter how specialised - you're exposed to basically the full DPS of the larger ship with no way to evade or mitigate it; even the tankiest frigate will be toasted in less than 20 seconds. It simply does not compare.


The way to evade is to use the higher speed and keep your ship out of web range.

Originally by: souhyeahright
Originally by: The Djego
Yes a blaster ship(what includes the Brutix) should be fairly agile and fast.

There's a big difference between "fairly agile/fast" and "most agile by a large margin and only a tiny fraction slower than the fastest." Did you actually look at what a boost of "at least 10%" to agility and speed would do, or did you pull that number out of your ass?


I would like to see your numbers, based on fully fitted ships to see your beef with it.

The number is not "out of my ass". If you compare fully fitted ships after armor rigs and plates, the change is not this drastic.

Even in a ST Brutix your speed is 1112m/s. It hits around 1230 with the extra speed. That is still slower than the minmatar BC hulls, even if it would be a bit more agile.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.08 18:33:00 - [846]
 

Originally by: Marn Prestoc
I still like my AB bonus idea. Increase the thrust given but also increase the mass so you go a little faster than with a MWD but have turning issues like fitting an oversized AB. You end up with a straight line dragster that can get close and stay close (WS won't stop there speed) but you can't just go AB around everywhere as you can't turn.

Fitting AB uses less CPU and PG than a MWD saving some fitting for tank/weapons.
Your catching ability increases, but have to use with skill.
Your damage dealing increases as you control range better whilst webbed/warp scramed.
You also have increased survivability to get back to gates / stations / out of web or scram range.

Thats two of the main issues fixed with a couple of decent secondary benifits. Tweak the fitting of the ships that need it to increase tank/dps and you have a unique ability to Blaster ships.


The problem with a straight line dragster would be that you will overshoot your target, as well as you make kitting games a lot harder. You need to surprise a kitter to win the kitting duel(what requires quick bursts and slowdowns), as well as you need precise control where you end up after both ships have slowed down as well to control range once you are there to make medium and large blaster work well.

While this is more a personal opinion than anything else, I for myself would prefer having a blaster ship as deadly as it gets at point blank ranges in expense of his own survivability instead of making it better at running away from a fight.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.08 18:49:00 - [847]
 

Originally by: Akisawa

How the fck potency of webs will help blaster ships.
Webs have 10 km range.
Blasters shoot up to 10km fine.
The point is, blaster ships will never ever get to that 10km coz they slow.



The tricky part is exactly to get the target into blaster range, from this point on web range should work in your way.
If you think this is not useful, then in general I think you try to use the wrong tool for the job or flying a ship that doesn't suit your preferred game play. This is no offence, I did the same a very long time and failed to realize it.

Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Maelstrom Crew
Paradigm Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.08 19:04:00 - [848]
 

Ok, have it modify inertia instead of mass (off top of my head I think inertia isn't used in speed calculations) so you still have the acceleration/deceleration of normal. Penalty would only be when active btw so as your slowing you will have your normal level of agility to turn/slow to keep at point blank range.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.08 19:33:00 - [849]
 

Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Ok, have it modify inertia instead of mass (off top of my head I think inertia isn't used in speed calculations) so you still have the acceleration/deceleration of normal. Penalty would only be when active btw so as your slowing you will have your normal level of agility to turn/slow to keep at point blank range.


Well this would be very cool.

But I think that practical scram immunity would be a bit over the top if you consider oversized ABs(like on T3) when it comes to small gang and solo pvp(where the dps on the field will not kill you in seconds).




Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Maelstrom Crew
Paradigm Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.08 19:54:00 - [850]
 

Originally by: The Djego

Well this would be very cool.

But I think that practical scram immunity would be a bit over the top if you consider oversized ABs(like on T3) when it comes to small gang and solo pvp(where the dps on the field will not kill you in seconds).



Wouldn't make them web immune, if people want to only fit a WS and no webs thats the sacrifice they make. A Deimos would go roughly 500m/s with 1 web, 200m/s with 2 webs so its not going anywhere quick. Some people would argue the Vagabond speed bonus (on top of high base speed) makes it practically scam and web immune due to difficulties getting into WS range (without getting popped if a frig).

You also won't have a tank like a t3 so the time you have to make the decision to GTFO is a lot smaller, and as you GTFO you will lose damage and chance of exploding the target and warping out.

Phoenix Kardel
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.09.08 20:34:00 - [851]
 

Lasers are fine. Projectiles are fine.

Blasters need their optimal and falloff numbers tweaked.


The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.08 20:47:00 - [852]
 

Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Originally by: The Djego

Well this would be very cool.

But I think that practical scram immunity would be a bit over the top if you consider oversized ABs(like on T3) when it comes to small gang and solo pvp(where the dps on the field will not kill you in seconds).



Wouldn't make them web immune, if people want to only fit a WS and no webs thats the sacrifice they make. A Deimos would go roughly 500m/s with 1 web, 200m/s with 2 webs so its not going anywhere quick. Some people would argue the Vagabond speed bonus (on top of high base speed) makes it practically scam and web immune due to difficulties getting into WS range (without getting popped if a frig).

You also won't have a tank like a t3 so the time you have to make the decision to GTFO is a lot smaller, and as you GTFO you will lose damage and chance of exploding the target and warping out.


Well I have seen stabbers going 400m/s within(90%) web range during the nano ago that give you, even if you are at the ball, quite a run for your money. Actually most webbed ab frigs are slower than this.

It would be epic to **** over bigger stuff. However the natural environment of a blaster ship(what is still low sec in my opinion) you will deal a lot with smaller hulls where the key issue is to move them into a peak dps situation. It doesn't really matter if you archive this with a stronger web or MWD like AB performance.

The stronger web makes WD a lot more interesting on solo blaster fits, what is actually required if you want to force stuff into a fight at gates and in belts if you are solo. Both are good solutions, even if I would prefer the stronger web for the reason that it represents the spirit of blaster pvp better, at least in my opinion. It doesn't give you a easy way to leave combat, however it does the same to your targets. YARRRR!!

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.09 00:01:00 - [853]
 

Originally by: souhyeahright

Scram frigates are also knife fighters, and need to be able to survive at knife ranges, which involves mitigating most/all the DPS of bigger ships if flown properly. Neither should obsolete or wholly nullify the other.


Actually scram frigates are more akin to suicide bombers. The whole reason people fly them is that they're dirt cheap and take very few skills to operate. If you die, so what? It was a ship so cheap a week old player would have no problem replacing it. And ships nullify other ships all the time, that's the whole rock/paper/scissors mentality. Bring a tackle frigate against an AML caracal and see what happens, you don't even need to be in scram range to get ****ed. (an example of this higher up would be a vaga and a curse, both being very good ships but no sane vaga pilot would ever engage a curse because the curses bonuses allow it to absolutely dominate the vaga)

Originally by: souhyeahright

Except a scram frigate isn't going to be at 20 km from those ships for more than a couple of seconds unless its pilot is dumb. However, it *has* to be at <10 km to be of any use - that's the entirety of its purpose. More to the point, those '20 km' guns are not particularly effective against properly-flown tackle ceptors at 15-25 km - you can tickle them, and force them off after a couple of minutes, but it's not zomgwtfbbq totalhelldeath unless the inty pilot is dumb and lets you get low transversal. A 90% web, by contrast, is instadeath to any close-range tackler, no matter how specialised - you're exposed to basically the full DPS of the larger ship with no way to evade or mitigate it; even the tankiest frigate will be toasted in less than 20 seconds. It simply does not compare.
It does though. A SPECIALIZED tackler can tackle from just outside web range. Slapping a scram, web and MWD on a frig because you can't think of any other way to make it useful does not mean that said frig is specialized at close range tackling any more than a laser fit thorax is a specialized laser boat. There are ships that are specifically designed to be able to web and scram at ranges that are outside the reach of standard webs and scrams, and THAT is what makes them specialized, a t1 frigate is only good at a few things not because it's their intended role, but because it's a freaking 800k frigate. Not to mention that this completely ignores the possibility of using a TD, one (or 2 if you're got numbers) of these on a blaster ship will allow you to orbit it just fine.


Jyngo
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.09.09 03:15:00 - [854]
 

Edited by: Jyngo on 09/09/2010 03:15:28
Blasters should get a tracking boost atleast.

Giving the shortest range weapons the best tracking is a no brainer.

Oh and stop whining about projectiles, they're fine.

souhyeahright
Posted - 2010.09.09 05:44:00 - [855]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
more akin to suicide bombers... dirt cheap and take very few skills to operate...ship so cheap a week old player would have no problem replacing it.....a t1 frigate is only good at a few things not because it's their intended role, but because it's a freaking 800k frigate.


Originally by: souhyeahright
And this isn't just about T1 frigates, it's about *any* frigate hull that fights in scram range - AFs, combat inties, faction frigates all die just the same. The QR changes made scram frigates viable and useful; re-instating strong webs as anything other than expensive luxury toys would remove that.

Bolded a relevant bit. If you're going to be deliberately obtuse and ignore what I post, there's really not much point to continuing this conversation, is there?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.09.09 06:09:00 - [856]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Actually scram frigates are more akin to suicide bombers.

Actually? Wow, you have no clue whatsoever do you. A single small nos is almost enough to run MWD+Scram so you are protected against the occasional neut. With a dual-prop solution its a sure thing and you get added scram and partial web protection.
If you really have only used cheap T1 hulls in the role then it is no wonder that you underestimate the power of it ..
Is it dangerous? Hell yea, tackle role always is regardless of range
Is it fun? Ccram duty is the best damn kick to the adrenal gland left in Eve. For the more hectic fights I recommend replacement underwear as well as ships.

PS: Standard Assault Caracal can be taken in any kinetic hardened frigate doing high damage at max speed (ie. Slicer Smile)
Did it by blind luck in an AB Crusader once; pilot was new to the Assault Caracal so was not aware of its capabilities, forgot his drones etc. .. Fit was the standard T2/Named mixture.
Originally by: Jyngo
..Giving the shortest range weapons the best tracking is a no brainer...

Yea, blaster optimal should be:
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"
(bolded the pertinent bit Laughing)
Still needs a bit extra damage as it is awfully close to other systems even in optimal though.

Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.09 14:26:00 - [857]
 

Blasters should be giving higher optimals at short ranges. Those values should be changed; so medium ions have a 5k optimal and 2k falloff. Why do they have falloff where theyre suppose to excel at? -To early for this stuff, need breakfast-

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.09 23:33:00 - [858]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Yea, blaster optimal should be:
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"
(bolded the pertinent bit Laughing)



Well I miss the joke. I can deal with "abandon all hopes to get out of the fight before somebody dies very quickly". However I would like that other people also have to deal with this to.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2010.09.10 00:13:00 - [859]
 

Edited by: Cambarus on 10/09/2010 00:14:13
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Actually? Wow, you have no clue whatsoever do you. A single small nos is almost enough to run MWD+Scram so you are protected against the occasional neut. With a dual-prop solution its a sure thing and you get added scram and partial web protection.
If you really have only used cheap T1 hulls in the role then it is no wonder that you underestimate the power of it ..
Is it dangerous? Hell yea, tackle role always is regardless of range
Is it fun? Ccram duty is the best damn kick to the adrenal gland left in Eve. For the more hectic fights I recommend replacement underwear as well as ships.


Quick! Everyone! Let's balance eve according to how it might affect a ship class that most people outgrow less than a month into the game because I think they're more exiting to fly! Drones will still om nom t1 frigs as will anyone sitting farther than 10km from whatever said frig is orbiting. Most larger ships carry something with them that will help them kill off a t1 frigate with relative ease anyway, which is the main reason I refer to them as suicide bombers; not so much because you're guaranteed to die as it is that if you expect to live you've chosen the wrong ship. There are plenty of t2/faction frigate hulls out there that will do the job better.


Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

PS: Standard Assault Caracal can be taken in any kinetic hardened frigate doing high damage at max speed (ie. Slicer Smile)
Did it by blind luck in an AB Crusader once; pilot was new to the Assault Caracal so was not aware of its capabilities, forgot his drones etc. .. Fit was the standard T2/Named mixture.

And I've seen a helios absolutely **** a pair of rifters that landed on him. Sometimes engagements don't go the way you'd expect, doesn't mean that fitting specifically to counter a caracal, and having it actually work will automatically apply to all frigs v caracals.

Originally by: souhyeahright

Originally by: souhyeahright
And this isn't just about T1 frigates, it's about *any* frigate hull that fights in scram range - AFs, combat inties, faction frigates all die just the same. The QR changes made scram frigates viable and useful; re-instating strong webs as anything other than expensive luxury toys would remove that.

Bolded a relevant bit. If you're going to be deliberately obtuse and ignore what I post, there's really not much point to continuing this conversation, is there?
I could say the exact same thing to you:
Originally by: Cambarus
Not to mention that this completely ignores the possibility of using a TD, one (or 2 if you're got numbers) of these on a blaster ship will allow you to orbit it just fine.


Not that any of that even matters, because what was suggested was simply adding the bonus to a small handful of ships:the mega, brutix,diemost and astarte as far as I can tell (and then maybe not the brutix, but IMO it should be on that list). Dear god a total of 4 ships that are SUPPOSED to dominate close range fights being good at killing things at close range? THE HORROR (actually it'd only be 3, the suggestion was 80% webs on a mega and TDd or not it won't be hitting a frig orbiting at 500 with large blasters.

n0thing
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.09.10 15:20:00 - [860]
 

Edited by: n0thing on 10/09/2010 15:20:53
Originally by: souhyeahright
Originally by: The Djego
However since the blaster ship is a knife fighter, it should be a lot better at knife ranges, what includes fighting undersized tacklers. The web nerf took away a lot of the solo ability's of blaster ships, since all the new mechanics are supposed to work exactly at blaster ranges.

Scram frigates are also knife fighters, and need to be able to survive at knife ranges, which involves mitigating most/all the DPS of bigger ships if flown properly. Neither should obsolete or wholly nullify the other.




The whole web/speed/mass mechanics isnt working like it was supposed to.
Reason for it, would be prolly that nerfs/balances/boosts were done over several patches.

So first the mass/agility changes were made, thus reducing speed of armor tanking ships, and then web re-balance was introduced.

Apart from scramblers/disruptors that seem almost perfectly balanced for now, other aspects of prorulsion/mass seem to be promoting shield/speed tanking, since armor tankers are too slow to accelerate to their already low top-velocity and having a web fitted on wont help anyways.
Also everytime the slow-armkr-tanker reduces speed once hes near target(a game mechanic feature), if target manages to take range again, then same armor-ship needs to slowly accelerate all over again, while the target has big chance of getting out of scram range and either out-range & shoot down the armor ship, or just warp off.



EDIT: typos

Zathi Shaitan
Illiteracy Combatants
Posted - 2010.10.11 21:50:00 - [861]
 

"seriously", go back to school and learn to spell.


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