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JemtekTSP
Amarr
Posted - 2010.08.14 09:39:00 - [1]
 

I need to put my alt in a new ship for PVE, wondering which would be best, paladin or nightmare.

?

Kalidorius
Posted - 2010.08.14 09:55:00 - [2]
 

depends if you wanan salvage as you go, if you do get a paladin, if u dont get a nightmare ( i prefer the nightmare tho as it has monster damage and a damn good tank )

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.08.14 11:20:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 14/08/2010 11:21:45
No contest. NIGHTMARE.

If your setup isn't fail, and your skills are good, there is no such thing as "salvage as you go". You will kill the rats so fast that you won't be able to salvage more than a couple of wrecks before the mission is over or it's time to hit the accel gate to go to the next pocket.

Fitting a nightmare is STUPIDLY EASY.

4x tachs
1x XL shield booster II
1x heavy cap booster
hardeners

3-4 heat sinks
1-2 tracking enhancers

And viola, an npc killing machine.

Paladin....

4x tachs.....oh crap, where did my grid go?

1x heavy cap booster
tracking computers/caprechargers

1x large armo........oh wait, that won't fit. Gotta take off the cap booster and fit an expensive rep

You end up with having to fit a navy rep, and needing a pg implant to fit much else. Now, go ahead and look at the tank. That's right, it sucks.

Now, some people will say "well, just fit mega pulse". To that, I say "you suck". Oh sure, EFT will tell you that mega pulse do pretty good damage with scorch and reach out.....to 45km..... My nightmare's optimal with it's tracking computer on optimal range is like 47km with multifrequency...and I'm doing a LOT more thermal damage than scorch. Add to that being able to "resist" tracking disruptors because of the nice falloff(which npc TDs don't affect falloff) and you have a clear and definate choice when it comes to guns. Go and look at the dps of a boat fitted with tachs, and a boat fitted with mega pulse. Not much of a difference, huh?

Paladins aren't bad, ships....they just aren't all that impressive when you look at the alternative. You can use one and be successful, but IMO you'll get way better mileage out of a nightmare. Just don't do something stupid by trying to make it cap stable.

PS

and training marauders 5 makes me sad


Josorna
Posted - 2010.08.14 11:26:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Josorna on 14/08/2010 11:29:12
It's true that Nightmare wins over Paladin in terms of damage.

But saying paladin can't fit tank without PG implants / rigs, is just wrong. Sure, as is said, you need that faction repper, but that's it. Rest can be whatever you want them to.
And considering all tanking modules for armor besides reppers / plates (which have no use in PvE paladin) use equally 1 pg, you can have just as good tank as you might ever want to on paladin. They'll fit as long as you have that faction repper.

My paladin runs with 4-slot armor tank + 3 HS's on lows, tanks every single lvl 4 just fine, and clears them out too. And just to make it clear, Nightmare would clear them faster, but again, you can fit a good enough tank to paladin without any extra PG, and you don't even need cap boosters for it.

Koyama Ise
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.14 12:51:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Koyama Ise on 14/08/2010 12:54:18
Originally by: Ashira Twilight
Paladin...
1x heavy cap booster
...

Please let me take this time to say YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!.

You don't need the cap booster it runs 100% without it just stick 3 cap rechargers and 2 cap rigs and it perma runs (Salvagy stuff might reduce cap time to 28 minutes for pure perma running)

Forgot to add; then you only need a grid implant xor Faction rep.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:02:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 14/08/2010 13:03:25
Nightmare: Vertical, spikes

Paldain: Different coloured Apoc.



Nightmare wins.

(Plus it's shield tanked (good luck fitted 3-4 HS and 1-2 TEs on a Paladin), gets a whopping tracking bonus, and as said above is extremely easy to fit. Not to mention the lower skill requirements, not to mention that you dont have to train a skill that worthless for PvP. Also: spikes.)

EDIT: Nightmare does not need a cap booster at all.

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ashira Twilight
Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 14/08/2010 11:21:45
No contest. NIGHTMARE.

If your setup isn't fail, and your skills are good, there is no such thing as "salvage as you go". You will kill the rats so fast that you won't be able to salvage more than a couple of wrecks before the mission is over or it's time to hit the accel gate to go to the next pocket.

Fitting a nightmare is STUPIDLY EASY.

4x tachs
1x XL shield booster II
1x heavy cap booster
hardeners

3-4 heat sinks
1-2 tracking enhancers

And viola, an npc killing machine.

Paladin....

4x tachs.....oh crap, where did my grid go?

1x heavy cap booster
tracking computers/caprechargers

1x large armo........oh wait, that won't fit. Gotta take off the cap booster and fit an expensive rep

You end up with having to fit a navy rep, and needing a pg implant to fit much else. Now, go ahead and look at the tank. That's right, it sucks.

Now, some people will say "well, just fit mega pulse". To that, I say "you suck". Oh sure, EFT will tell you that mega pulse do pretty good damage with scorch and reach out.....to 45km..... My nightmare's optimal with it's tracking computer on optimal range is like 47km with multifrequency...and I'm doing a LOT more thermal damage than scorch. Add to that being able to "resist" tracking disruptors because of the nice falloff(which npc TDs don't affect falloff) and you have a clear and definate choice when it comes to guns. Go and look at the dps of a boat fitted with tachs, and a boat fitted with mega pulse. Not much of a difference, huh?

Paladins aren't bad, ships....they just aren't all that impressive when you look at the alternative. You can use one and be successful, but IMO you'll get way better mileage out of a nightmare. Just don't do something stupid by trying to make it cap stable.

PS

and training marauders 5 makes me sad




3 heatsinks, 3x hardeners, and a meta 4 rep and well I don't have a problem in my paladin. tanks everything damn fine, oh and my mids are 2 tracking comps and 2 cap rechargers, yay it damn near permaruns, so no cap boosters. (3 cap rechargers and 1 tracking comp will make it stupidly cap stable)

on that note I think I slightly prefer my nightmare, extra heatsink and extra tracking enhancer, 4 heatsinks, 1 tracking enhancer, and 2 tracking comps ftw Twisted Evil

General Trajan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:54:00 - [8]
 

both of these ships are great, but serve key specific purposes. so no one is truly greater than the other...pending exactly what you want!

-want to only blitz missions as fast as you can in amarr space? don't mind training additional shield skills for tanking? then it's the nightmare!

-you want to loot/salvage while you melt things? then it's easily the paladin between the two.

should be easy for you to figure out if you want to salvage or blitz!

but if you want my opinion the NM is ass-ugly and i'll be damned if i train shield skills on my beloved pure amarr char. but that's just my take Wink

Goose99
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:57:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: General Trajan
both of these ships are great, but serve key specific purposes. so no one is truly greater than the other...pending exactly what you want!

-want to only blitz missions as fast as you can in amarr space? don't mind training additional shield skills for tanking? then it's the nightmare!

-you want to loot/salvage while you melt things? then it's easily the paladin between the two.

should be easy for you to figure out if you want to salvage or blitz!

but if you want my opinion the NM is ass-ugly and i'll be damned if i train shield skills on my beloved pure amarr char. but that's just my take Wink


NM is beautiful, and shield is superior for carebearing.ugh

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.14 21:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 14/08/2010 13:03:25
Nightmare: Vertical, spikes

Paldain: Different coloured Apoc.



Nightmare wins.

(Plus it's shield tanked (good luck fitted 3-4 HS and 1-2 TEs on a Paladin), gets a whopping tracking bonus, and as said above is extremely easy to fit. Not to mention the lower skill requirements, not to mention that you dont have to train a skill that worthless for PvP. Also: spikes.)

EDIT: Nightmare does not need a cap booster at all.


Its not useless:
Skill at installing power upgrades e.g. capacitor battery and power diagnostic units. 5% reduction in CPU needs of modules requiring Energy Grid Upgrades per skill level

That's huge when dealing with frigates and micro aux power core.

unless you're talking about the maurader skillbook....

Siriani Blue
Posted - 2010.08.14 21:30:00 - [11]
 

As I've posted else where:

If you're comfortable using boosters I find this works a treat... can switch the mods round to suit, you'll probably need a PG3 or 5 implant to make everything fit.

4 TachyonII
2 Salvagers
1 Tractor

Medium Cap Booster (800s) on a longer mission you may use 10 or so, but no harm on overstocking - most missions you'll use none or 1.
2 Tracking Comps (faction give a worthwhile boost) tend to run one optimal, one tracking but switch to suit the mission.
Sebo or Web or whatever

2 Hardner
1 LAR
4 IN Heatsinks

Aux Nano Pump and Nanobot Accelerator Rigs

Deadspace passive mods make a nice and relatively cheap replacement for the active hardners (can be picked up for 15mill or so), a core c type repper is 160-200mill, not quite as much rep amount as IN LAR but more cap efficient and not to heavy on PG either.
4 IN heatsinks combined with the tracking comps(+optimal) let your Tachs (IN Multifrequency) hit for great damage upto 50 and even further which I find suits most missions.

For the odd mission where you think you'll be there for a while you can still get it to run with enough tank by switching mids to cap chargers + 1 comp, dropping a heatsink or 2 for a mix of EAN,CPR or Tracking Enhancer so still fairly flexible.

...
I fly a nightmare as well, and as others have said, it's vertical and spikey and really very nice as well - but Paladin wins if you want to salvage sansha/blood missions.

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.14 21:44:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Von Kapiche on 14/08/2010 21:51:32
Nightmare is a monster, no doubt about it especially once you get your skills up. I'm still debating going the extra for a Paladin though, although as I don't actually mission much anymore I guess it's more for academics. I'm tossing this fit around in my head, as I don't actually own the ship I can't say if it works or not, but the ship seems surprisngly capable:

[Paladin, Couldn't tell you]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Surprisingly near a NM's tracking [edit: with the NM using optimal TC scripts, it's rather less than unscripted dual TC as you'd expect], misses out on 7km of optimal or so but... 40km optimal is your tractor range anyway, eh? the wasted bonus is somwhat annoying. T2 cap rigs don't make enough difference.

Anyway someone who can fly it might want to pull that apart. Does seem not that terrible a ship though.

Weeka
GET A JOB
Posted - 2010.08.15 07:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Siriani Blue
2 Tracking Comps (faction give a worthwhile boost) tend to run one optimal, one tracking


Why do you tend to use both scripts simultaneously?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.15 07:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Weeka
Originally by: Siriani Blue
2 Tracking Comps (faction give a worthwhile boost) tend to run one optimal, one tracking
Why do you tend to use both scripts simultaneously?
Because it gives him a whole 4‰ more optimal and 1–2m extra falloff than if he ran both empty, of course… Wink

Weeka
GET A JOB
Posted - 2010.08.15 08:34:00 - [15]
 

Ah, I see - My mistake, I was applying Sebos logic to tracking computers without verifying it.

Thanks!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.15 08:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Weeka
Ah, I see - My mistake, I was applying Sebos logic to tracking computers without verifying it.

Thanks!
Well, the bonuses are different so going for different scripts actually give you a tiny bit better results…

…but still, the bit is so tiny that it doesn't really make any useful difference — it's just more stuff to juggle around.

Azhu
Posted - 2010.08.15 11:48:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Azhu on 15/08/2010 11:48:13

Fail on any setup without a Damage Controle !!

Using 3 or 4 heatsInks Youll simple suck at math calculating stacking.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2010.08.15 11:58:00 - [18]
 

Whichever you enjoy flying most.

I started off with Nightmare but got fed up with it so swapped to Paladin, enjoyed that one a whole lot more. Just picked up a new Nightmare but that'll probably be for PvP. Surprisingly, I find the salvage-interaction makes PvE alot more bearable.

Josorna
Posted - 2010.08.15 12:03:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Azhu
Edited by: Azhu on 15/08/2010 11:48:13

Fail on any setup without a Damage Controle !!

Using 3 or 4 heatsInks Youll simple suck at math calculating stacking.


No, just no.
3-4 heatsinks are still fine, 5th is not. Having or not having a DC is personal preference. It might save you if you fail epicly, but in all other cases, regular EANM / Invul Field offers more (unless using many of course, since DC has no stacking penalty).

Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
Posted - 2010.08.15 12:05:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Azhu
Edited by: Azhu on 15/08/2010 11:48:13

Fail on any setup with a Damage Control !!



Fixed it for you ....

Anyone that runs missions with a DC needs to do a reality check.

The ONLY notable exception is if you will be aggrod by players in your mission

Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.08.15 18:09:00 - [21]
 

Nightmare wins because training Caldari BS to 5 and Amarr BS to 5 is a lot more useful than training Marauders to 5 to get the utmost out of the ship. Because BS skills cross over into PVP ships.

It is also a better DPS and tanked ship than the Paladin, so it wins completely.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.15 18:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Klandi
Originally by: Azhu
Edited by: Azhu on 15/08/2010 11:48:13

Fail on any setup with a Damage Control !!



Fixed it for you ....

Anyone that runs missions with a DC needs to do a reality check.

The ONLY notable exception is if you will be aggrod by players in your mission


I am frequently aggro'd by cognac when missioning, does that count?

Kedhar
Posted - 2010.08.15 21:33:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Kedhar on 15/08/2010 21:35:27
Against EM weak rats you get more damage, better tracking better tank and the posibility to salvage on the go. But the nightmare looks a way better than the paladin.....


[Paladin, Paladin Final II]
Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


[Nightmare, Nightmare Final]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Aleksandar Kerensky
Posted - 2010.08.16 02:20:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Klandi
Originally by: Azhu
Edited by: Azhu on 15/08/2010 11:48:13

Fail on any setup with a Damage Control !!



Fixed it for you ....

Anyone that runs missions with a DC needs to do a reality check.

The ONLY notable exception is if you will be aggrod by players in your mission


I am frequently aggro'd by cognac when missioning, does that count?


Yes, yes it does. IMHO. Very Happy

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.08.16 03:50:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 16/08/2010 04:00:16
Originally by: Josorna
Edited by: Josorna on 14/08/2010 11:29:12
It's true that Nightmare wins over Paladin in terms of damage.

But saying paladin can't fit tank without PG implants / rigs, is just wrong. Sure, as is said, you need that faction repper, but that's it. Rest can be whatever you want them to.
And considering all tanking modules for armor besides reppers / plates (which have no use in PvE paladin) use equally 1 pg, you can have just as good tank as you might ever want to on paladin. They'll fit as long as you have that faction repper.

My paladin runs with 4-slot armor tank + 3 HS's on lows, tanks every single lvl 4 just fine, and clears them out too. And just to make it clear, Nightmare would clear them faster, but again, you can fit a good enough tank to paladin without any extra PG, and you don't even need cap boosters for it.


Yes, but compare that fit to a tech 2 fit nightmare. Nightmare can fit the cap injector with ease, pally can't. The old "shield > armor" for pve, etc. Nightmare can use all it's lows to augment it's guns, pally can't do that.

Edit for all the tards saying nightmare doesn't need a cap booster, that I am doing it wrong....

YOU are doing it wrong. Stop filling your rig slots and lows/mids with cap mods. Fit ONE cap mod, an injector, and use the rest of your ship to make you do the stupid missions faster.

I understand that if you clog up your ship with cap mods, guy deadspace shield boosters, and gimp yourself...that you don't need a cap booster.

Imagine, if you will...a ship that kills npcs so fast that you don't even need to run more than a few cycles of your shield booster. Harder missions you'll need to pop some cap 800s, but that's why it's there. What is it, like 3/4 or more of the missions are so stupidly easy that you won't need to use your shield booster AT ALL.

Koyama Ise
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.16 06:25:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Ashira Twilight
Edit for all the tards saying nightmare doesn't need a cap booster, that I am doing it wrong....

YOU are doing it wrong.

Based on the wording of your post there it seems almost a retaliatory post to my previous one which I hope isn't the case.

If this is the case I must point out that the Paladin fit you specified was pants on head ******ed.

On an unrelated note here is my Paladin setup

4x Tachyon Beam Laser II
2x Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
3x Cap Recharger II

Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
4x Hardeners
2x Heat Sink II

2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Of course the web can be changed for a tracking computer but it is a personal choice. I prefer to make use of bonuses where I can.

Riho
Gallente
Drop of Blood
Posted - 2010.08.16 08:55:00 - [27]
 

Having both.... i can tell you its just a matter of choise of what tanking type you prefer.

my alt is pure amarr with marauders 5
my main can fly nm with allmost close to max skills too (missing caldari bs5 tho... dont fly caldari too often to be worth it.)
if id train caldari bs 5... the dmg would be allmost exactly the same on both ships.

paladin:
armor tank
easier on the cap
can salvage and loot at the same time while killing.

Nightmare
looks better
shield tank
easier to skill for.

down here are the fits i use. i hardly ever need to turn on the tank on NM so i dont run cap inj. stuff that could dmg me, melts fast.

with my skills on alt and main... those fits both produce just over 1000 EFT dps.

as i do missions when not pvping... i dont care for some uber faction stuff that makes my mission 5% fast, while spending a billion more on the ship.

[Paladin, PvE]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
True Sansha Stasis Webifier

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5


[Nightmare, PvE]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
'Vrykolakas' Heavy Nosferatu I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5

Josorna
Posted - 2010.08.16 09:33:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Josorna on 16/08/2010 09:39:58
Originally by: Ashira Twilight
Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 16/08/2010 04:00:16
Yes, but compare that fit to a tech 2 fit nightmare. Nightmare can fit the cap injector with ease, pally can't. The old "shield > armor" for pve, etc. Nightmare can use all it's lows to augment it's guns, pally can't do that.


And then again, why on earth would someone want cap injector on PvE paladin? It's stable enough without wasting a single low on cap, and out of mids you only need two. The other two, can be filled with TC / Webber or 2x TC.

Yet again, we're below NM in both range and damage, but that's not the point. I know that NM is better in that area. Point is, that you're trying to fit a paladin like it's NM, which it isn't. So, forget that cap booster from paladin, it just doesn't belong in there.
I also agree with the fact that NM is easier to fit in general. But that then again, as said, paladin can fit everything it needs without any rigs / pg implants as well. It's just not as flexible as NM but it is enough.

And as for the shield > armor, I've heard that too. But in this case, it's all about trading a bit of damage / range (paladin can go 3 HS, 2 TC while usual NM is 3-4 HS, 1-2 TE, 1 TC which is one extra gankmod. And also NM's BS skill bonus for tracking) for the ability to salvage on the go. The amount of tanks on both is quite equal with the usual fits people tend to go for.


 

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