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Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 01:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 01:47:33
Greetings,

I'm seeking a business loan in order to begin trade in a market segment which appears rather profitable but requires a middling-sizeable investment.

* I am looking for an unsecured loan in the amount of 2-4 billion.

* This is a market segment that I believe can be cornered over time.

* It is a segment that is largely unaffected by wide fluctuations, meaning that losses, while possible, are not likely and washouts are exceedingly unlikely.

* I understand risk-benefit. I offer no hard collateral but I am a long-termer, possibly lifer, in this game. I am the original owner of this character and this is my main. Though you have no way of verifying this, I've come to believe that trust within this game is the single most valuable commodity and the hardest to acquire-- for an example, consider the conduct of the very few people like Chribba, for whom consistency has become a full-time occupation.

* I am reticent to provide much more information regarding the nature of the investments and trades will be done through alts. This is not to say that I am god's gift to Eve trading. This is also not to say that this is some Super Awesome New Idea that will be destroyed if others jump on it. It's a modest idea which I think will provide modest profits.

* How much profits? I believe on the order of 6%. It may take one month or it may take somewhat longer.

* Why do I believe it's profitable? Well, because it's in the rarefied air of higher ISK ranges and out of the reach of most players. Or, I should say, the segment certainly is profitable and I believe this to be the reason why.

The amount of ISK I'm looking for is, as I said, middling-sizable-- it's enough to be useful, but likely trivial to most people here, and IMO not enough to throw away the name of a character I've kept for five years and intend to continue to keep.

Any serious parties who are interested may contact me in-game, either regarding this business plan, such as it is, or with any counter-proposals.

Regards

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2010.08.01 02:26:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
I am looking for an unsecured loan in the amount of 2-4 billion.

You won't find it here. Get an audit done, and/or provide some collateral, and submit a concrete offering and then you will stand the same chance as any other first time offeror.


Quote:
I am the original owner of this character and this is my main. Though you have no way of verifying this, I've come to believe that trust within this game is the single most valuable commodity and the hardest to acquire-- for an example, consider the conduct of the very few people like Chribba, for whom consistency has become a full-time occupation.

Chribba earned that trust in a multitude of ways. As a long-termer, perhaps you have earned trust with old friends/your corp/your alliance - in which case you should be asking them for an unsecured loan, not MD.


Quote:
How much profits? I believe on the order of 6%. It may take one month or it may take somewhat longer.

The amount of ISK I'm looking for is, as I said, middling-sizable-- it's enough to be useful, but likely trivial to most people here, and IMO not enough to throw away the name of a character I've kept for five years and intend to continue to keep.

Being vague won't help you. Commit to a number, put your own neck on the line.
2 to 4 billion is not trivial. People who have worked for that money are not inclined to give it away to someone they don't know and who has no business plan or concrete offer.

Quote:
Any serious parties who are interested may contact me in-game, either regarding this business plan, such as it is, or with any counter-proposals.

The thing is, you're not being serious with your proposal.

Preparing an offering that will be acceptable, and having an audit done are not onerous tasks. I suggest you invest some time in your offering if you want people to give it serious consideration.

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 03:03:00 - [3]
 

I appreciate your candor. We will see how it goes. A third-party audit is certainly a reasonable suggestion and I do believe in transparency wherever possible. I also have been around enough to know how things go in this game.

The fact is, three-week-old alts regularly get loan requests filled here. (Why? Good question...) Thus the proposal.

Anyone interested in a mathematical, specifically game theoretical, basis for trust criteria should look into "iterated and non-iterated prisoners' dilemma."

Mella Elcus
Posted - 2010.08.01 04:06:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn

Anyone interested in a mathematical, specifically game theoretical, basis for trust criteria should look into "iterated and non-iterated prisoners' dilemma."


The problem is that in Eve, being the trusting player makes you lose, every time.

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 04:47:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 04:52:21
That's because the social interactions are "non-iterated," meaning you don't run into the same people again and again and even if you do it's hard for them to take it out of your hide if you jerk them over. Trusting behaviors that work in a village setting don't work so well in big cities.

But the fact is, you do run into the same people again and again. Friends come and go, enemies accumulate. PVP fighting aside, I'm more interested in being friendly and honest, the alternative is a great way to end up a rich loner.

Quote:
every time.

Well, I don't know about EVERY time, but it's certainly enough that it's a bad policy overall, and I hate to say that but it's true.

The interesting thing about Chribba is that by making a name for himself, he made his name worth more than any given Titan that he's entrusted with. He can only rip someone off once and then his name is burned for good, therefore his benefit from being trustworthy is greater than from any individual defection.

One way to do this sort of thing might be with a monthly investment round, with the entire amount of investment being returned with profits, every month, which would limit the amount of shenanigans that the fund manager could pull.

Jadun
Posted - 2010.08.01 05:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
I appreciate your candor. We will see how it goes. A third-party audit is certainly a reasonable suggestion and I do believe in transparency wherever possible. I also have been around enough to know how things go in this game.

as you proved with this post you do not know.

The fact is, three-week-old alts regularly get loan requests filled here. (Why? Good question...) Thus the proposal.

the fact that there are idiots on these forums is no secret.

Anyone interested in a mathematical, specifically game theoretical, basis for trust criteria should look into "iterated and non-iterated prisoners' dilemma."

Linking wiki might help you get a loan in Hallo Kitty online not sure about here


Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 06:52:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 07:07:09
I appreciate your candor.

Just curious: been laid lately? You should try it sometime, it might help with the snarkypants :)

As I said, we'll see how it goes. If you're not interested, that's certainly cool with me, but I'll be around regardless.

Quote:
as you proved with this post you do not know.

Part of what I was talking about is that there are a number of people just like you, and believe me, I do know how it goes.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
Anyone interested in a mathematical, specifically game theoretical, basis for trust criteria should look into "iterated and non-iterated prisoners' dilemma."



The Prisoner's Dilemma applies only in a very specific set of circumstances where they pay-offs are in a specific order: loser's pay-off < mutual defection < mutual cooperation < winner's pay-off. Furthermore, the reward for mutual cooperation has to be greater than the average of the loser's and the winner's pay-off. In addition, for the game to be properly 'iterated', participants must play every round - without the option of quitting - until the game ends.
None of this applies to bonds in EVE.
(Oh, and try reading a book instead of Wikipedia.)

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:39:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 09:44:36
All social interactions are actually deeply rooted in game theory. Among other things, PD was part of the body of research that may have stopped nuclear war with Russia.

Quote:
(Oh, and try reading a book instead of Wikipedia.)

Try reading Nash and Von Neumann and actually understanding the material. I was writing software related to PD in the 1980s. What were you doing?

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd understand exactly how PD applies to trust in iterated and non-iterated systems.

But thanks for the bump. Provide many more!

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:56:00 - [10]
 

You're not helping yourself, Janya. Lose the attitude or lose the loan.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:59:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
All social interactions are actually deeply rooted in game theory.

That's a tautology. Game theory tries to describe/explain/analyse social interactions; surely they're related. But though the Prisoner's Dilemma is game theory, not all game theory is Prisoner's Dilemma. Even if game theory would apply to EVE, that doesn't necessarily mean the Prisoner's Dilemma applies.

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
Among other things, PD was part of the body of research that may have stopped nuclear war with Russia.

So the Prisoner's Dilemma may have been useful in actual policy decisions. Awesome. But EVE isn't exactly the Cold War.


Originally by: Janya Rykayn
Try reading Nash and Von Neumann and actually understanding the material. I was writing software related to PD in the 1980s. What were you doing?

Around that time? I was playing with crayons probably. I've learned a lot since though Wink

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
If you knew what you were talking about, you'd understand exactly how PD applies to trust in iterated and non-iterated systems.

I'm all for personal comments (am known to make use of them every once in a while too), but they're not really that good when used as arguments.
I gave a very specific reply to your reference to the Prisoner's Dilemma, giving conditions which should be met and claiming that none of those conditions apply to bonds in EVE. You would demonstrate your considerable knowledge and experience on the subject if you could address the content of the post instead of the person making the post.

SetrakDark
DarkCorp Citizens Holdings
DarkCorp Citizens
Posted - 2010.08.01 10:30:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 09:44:36
All social interactions are actually deeply rooted in game theory. Among other things, PD was part of the body of research that may have stopped nuclear war with Russia.

Quote:
(Oh, and try reading a book instead of Wikipedia.)

Try reading Nash and Von Neumann and actually understanding the material. I was writing software related to PD in the 1980s. What were you doing?

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd understand exactly how PD applies to trust in iterated and non-iterated systems.

But thanks for the bump. Provide many more!


Stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

NoChance Lance
Posted - 2010.08.01 15:42:00 - [13]
 

I just love how people come onto the MD boards, ask for a 2-4 billion loan with no collateral, then become really snide and arrogant when they don't get what they want immediately and/or are challenged slightly.
Boggles the mind how often this happens.

RaWBLooD
Posted - 2010.08.01 17:00:00 - [14]
 

Without any personal or vouched reputation on the MD, you are untrustworthy. Therefore assuming you can pay below 10% interest without collateral shows either the inability to plan or something worse.


KaetheYsera
Posted - 2010.08.01 17:03:00 - [15]
 

Janya, you are not doing a good job of building trust right now. Do you realize who you are being condescending to? Estel Arador is the guy to go for if you need a jump clone. He has a billion stations where players can pick up jump clones and he lets people access it for free. Now, if you're being condescending to a prominent player, why would people take you seriously?

You are disproving your own arguments about how important it is to be trustworthy and how much you value you reputation. Estel Arador has a good name, so being a brat to him will not improve your name or damage his name, it will damage yours.

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:07:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 22:28:33
Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 22:12:03
If people who talk all nicey-nicey is what is required for you to have "trust," your criteria are unfortunately wrong. I say what I think, good or bad. One way or another I'm not going to be unctuous. Think about what slick talkers 99% of the successful scammers in here have been.

If your e-peen needs stroking, you are vulnerable to strokers. What I am is a straight shooter, for better or worse.

Also it's a personal thing: if a person requires e-peen stroking, I'm not going to be working with that person. So if anyone has a problem with non-stroking, they're free to find one of the 90 trillion other investment opportunities where the salesman is a slick-talking epeen stroker. And I encourage that.

I'm also rather surprised that you seem to think 2 billion is an amount worth scamming people over for a driveby. What's that even buy these days? It's not 2003 anymore. Is it really worth being wardecced in perpetuity?

Estel: I'm up to discuss Von Neumann, MAD, PD, etc, whenever but message me in-game.

FWIW, the optimal iterated PD strategy was found to be "Tit for Tat" and has informed US foreign policy for decades now.

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:24:00 - [17]
 

I'll put in 2.5 Billion.

Send me your full API for Janya as well as all alts that will be involved (trading, hauling or otherwise).

Also, be sure to include full character list for all other owned characters. I will certainly check full API history to locate all likely such players based on trading history.

After you send full API for all characters, and I confirm all data, I will forward you the funds.

Thansk.

Phoebe Halliwel
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:24:00 - [18]
 

Why have you reached 5 years old in the game but need to borrow 2b? What's your estimated worth (including assets)? Don't you have any in game friends willing to lend you the isk?

Being civil when asking for funding is pretty much basic common sense. If you're arrogant and arsey when asking for funding, what happens if there's a problem with the offering. Might seem insincere but there's an element of philanthropy involved when people invest in small offerings, and quite frankly, few people want to help people with a poor attitude.

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:31:00 - [19]
 

Thras: Talk in game.

Quote:
Being civil when asking for funding is pretty much basic common sense.

Civility has to go both ways. An e-peen stroker I'm not, if you have a problem with that you'd better go to one of the numerous guys who specialize in stroking.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:38:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn

Civility has to go both ways. An e-peen stroker I'm not, if you have a problem with that you'd better go to one of the numerous guys who specialize in stroking.


You came here looking for ISK

We have the ISK

You might be treated like ****, but treating those with the ISK the same way will result in them not giving their ISK to you! Even if you manage to prove everything you have said, the people with the ISK control who gets it, and treating them like **** will result in getting no ISK from them.

We want facts, we want verifiable numbers, we do not want to be treated the same way you might get treated. Yes, you will get treated like ****, but due to the nature of EVE and how easy it is to scam, investors want to make sure every i is dotted and t is crossed.

I might have been interested in this if you were not a 5 yr old character with nothing and the fact that you have treated others like ****.

The 5 yr old character is a major red flag. If you haven't figured out how to make this amount of ISK in 5 years, how the hell are you going to make it in a month or two?

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2010.08.01 23:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
Quote:
Being civil when asking for funding is pretty much basic common sense.

Civility has to go both ways. An e-peen stroker I'm not, if you have a problem with that you'd better go to one of the numerous guys who specialize in stroking.


Good grief, you really are digging yourself a hole. Phoebe was courteous and your response was ignorant, arrogant and uncalled for. Get a grip.

e-peen stroking? Investors don't want that. You, on the other hand, are coming across as being in dire need of having your ego stroked. That may not be how you see it, but it is what it is.

You've had plenty of solid advice, perhaps not always in the tone your ego can handle, and yet you've continued to get more and more arsey. Whatever for?

Anyway, enough is enough. As an auditor, I would not get involved in your offering. As an investor, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot bargepole.

john gomez
Posted - 2010.08.02 00:06:00 - [22]
 

I might be interested in this. I am going to need to need your API info etc. I will contact you in-game for further details.

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.02 00:26:00 - [23]
 

Varo: You're funny. I don't quite understand why you're getting so angry about this. It's really quite simple, if you're interested you're interested, and if you're not, go find someone else.

The thing I find funny is it's really not that large of a sum, even when considered in-game.

Quote:
digging yourself a hole

Get a grip!

For a dose of much-needed perspective: I do consulting in this thing called Real Life. It involves canvassing investors and corporate customers. We don't spend a whole lot of time stroking these people. In Real Life, I would have told those who aren't interested to take a flying leap long before now. Not in so many words but tire kickers only get so many kicks at the tire.

So you have to forgive me if I find your behavior here extremely amusing. It just strikes me as self-important and needlessly dramatic over something that's incredibly trivial. People don't spend this amount of time in a tizzy over hundreds of thousands of dollars. Either they're interested or they aren't. And it's really quite simple and not worth working oneself up over, but that's just my opinion. What do I know, after all?

Those who are interested may contact me in-game. Those who aren't may feel free to provide as many bumps as you wish, as well as any incidental amusement that I may derive.

Phoebe Halliwel
Posted - 2010.08.02 02:43:00 - [24]
 

You didn't actually answer any of my questions Janya, they weren't rhetorical or intended to cause offence.

If you'd answered the point about assets by stating you had, for example, BPOs or other fixed assets you could do without for a period of time, there are a number of people who specialise in loans at around 6% with 110% collateral. You might even be able to get a more favourable rate if the collateral can be used for copying or production. If after 5 years of play, you have less than 2b in assets, you're not an attractive investment. It's not unreasonable or uncivil to point this out.

You're asking for a loan in the OP, but the thread title states "seeking investors" which indicates something more along the lines of a public offering. Your comments seem to suggest if people aren't interested in giving you isk they should mind their own business. It's unlikely to happen for several reasons, the most obvious being this isn't the sales forum and discussions on offerings are allowed. Another reason being for example, if your offering was filled by someone new to MD (or several people), and failed or resulted in a scam, it has a negative impact on the secondary market. All failed offerings do some damage to that market to some degree. You might consider it being self important, others might see it as a "community service" to point out flaws in offerings, and warn people from investing in them. Particularly if they have an interest in seeing successful investment opportunities in MD.

That post from john gomez asking for an API/indicating interest has all the hallmarks of a scam, i.e. you using an unknown alt to generate interest/bump the thread. For someone concerned about reputation, you're doing quite a good job of damaging that character to the point you will not get public funding at any point. If you privately agree to send your API to someone to get the offering filled, you may as well have just submitted to an audit. They are free for offerings this size, and there's always the possibility your backer will use the market info just as people imagine auditors might.

All that aside, the stroking comments really make me laugh, please carry on. Pointless to debate your attitude further (even though that's all you seem to want to talk about) because you clearly haven't done any homework about MD. Answering questions and keeping your cool simply demonstrates to people you have enough sense to be successful, being "unctuous" as you call it (lol) would get as bad a reception as your current one. When 9 people remark on the first page of your offering about your attitude, maybe they have a point.

ps. If 2b is untrivial, go make it yourself, rather than asking for it here. 2b is around 90 plex wise? I've never given some random arse 90, so what makes you think anyone else will?

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.08.02 02:56:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 02/08/2010 02:57:53
Phoebe, you're welcome to talk to me in game or whatever you would like. Forgive me for not engaging in a whole lot more of the M&D dance here.

For 2.5 billion, this would certainly be worthwhile. For some small percentage of 2.5b after investor gets his cut, certainly not worthwhile.

As for the way that you typically do things here, no, I do know all about it. It's not the way that I do things in Real World business, not that I am some huge mover and shaker or anything like that, and it's not the way I do them in game. I am not a person who dances the dance and I am not a person who engages in a lot of bull****. Sorry to be abrasive and I know am but TBH I really don't care all that much.

I do understand what you're saying-- from the perspective of the investor it's a fairly sizeable chunk and that's why you ask for due diligence yadda yadda-- but from the perspective of a fund manager who isn't looking at that much of a cut it's really not worth all that much.

It might very well be that after a month I'd have to say "Well, here's your 2% profit and your 2B back, sorry it didn't work out."

So am I going to engage in a lot of shucking and jiving for that? Sorry, no. Go talk to the scammers.

Quote:
ps. If 2b is untrivial, go make it yourself, rather than asking for it here. 2b is around 90 plex wise?
I don't pay for plexes but I'm asking myself the same question. We will see how it goes, several people have expressed interest and if we click we can see.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.08.02 03:03:00 - [26]
 

How come you dont have any notable assets that can be collateralized? Considering your toon is 5 years old!

I personally wouldnt touch this, even if it was audited and secured; simply because your attitude is one of the worst here in MD.

You go on and on, about how you do **** RL, and what a cool guy you are. To me you just look like an impatient kid, that havent done his homework! And is now whining about the ****storm, he has gone head first into!

Syds Sinclair
Posted - 2010.08.02 04:18:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Syds Sinclair on 02/08/2010 04:18:58
..I wouldn't touch this because of A B or C. Blah blah blah. Bottom line for me or any prospective MD investors is you would not touch this because of lack of collateral.

Any further discussion will be philosophical in nature.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.08.02 11:45:00 - [28]
 

1: No proven history. - Check
2: No audit. - Check
3: No collateral. - Check
4: Hostile responses to fair questions. - Check

Scam
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:34:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn


FWIW, the optimal iterated PD strategy was found to be "Tit for Tat" and has informed US foreign policy for decades now.


Depends - the optimal strategy was actually a handshake with a shill, after which one side would throw the game guaranteeing a near perfect result for the other.

Much similarly, the best way to develop thrust in MD is to run a few unsecured bonds and fill them yourself from alts.


Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Janya Rykayn
Estel: I'm up to discuss Von Neumann, MAD, PD, etc, whenever but message me in-game.

FWIW, the optimal iterated PD strategy was found to be "Tit for Tat" and has informed US foreign policy for decades now.

I'm not interested in discussing it in-game. You claimed it was somehow relevant to your bond and I called BS. Judging by your attempts at avoiding the issue (by claiming I'm ignorant or by wanting to discuss it in private) I called it right.


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