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Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.31 13:22:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 31/07/2010 16:22:23
"Player Councils in MMOs: Useful Tools or Waste of Time?
Speaker: Pétur Jóhannes Óskarsson (Researcher, CCP Games)
Track: Game Design
Secondary Track: Business & Management
Format: 50-minute Lecture"

https://www.cmpevents.com/GDCE10/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=11304

anyone from our CSM joining this?

CCP Navigator can organize meeting rooms: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1356450

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.01 12:23:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 01/08/2010 13:01:54
This is the first I've heard of this. CSM as a group was not told about it in either an email to us nor mention on our internal forums.

*sigh* Confused

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.01 12:35:00 - [3]
 

A better title would have been: "player councils and Agile development, or; how to troubleshoot corporate communications, data processing, consumer product value segregation and flexible decision processes through proper application of SCRUM and best practices business development methods".

With as a catchphrase: "all decision makers are equal, but some decision makers are less equal then most".

Figures why they want the meetings in seclusion and only upon request :P


Maeve Trinity
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.01 14:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Useful Tools or Waste of Time?



Oh my.

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2010.08.01 15:32:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Maeve Trinity
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Useful Tools or Waste of Time?



Oh my.
Yes, nice shafting potential in either case, due to the unfortunate wording or freudian slip.

Do a poll inside the CSM? To decide whether they would rather be called "tools" or a waste of time.

Gotta love the extra twist you can give "useful tools" when you put it next to another two word description beginning with useful.

farfrael
FP Enterprise
Posted - 2010.08.01 19:24:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: farfrael on 01/08/2010 19:24:43
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Player Councils in MMOs: Useful Tools or Waste of Time?

With apologies to the CSM, Both of course ! ("tools" obviously)
another facepalm from :ccp, where will they stop

CCP Xhagen

Posted - 2010.08.01 22:03:00 - [7]
 

Heya all.

I believe it is best that I answer for this since I am the guy who will be holding this lecture.

The summary for this lecture is:
"In MMORPGs the usage of 'player councils' is becoming more apparent and more widespread. Games like Age of Conan, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies and EVE Online have been known to use, or are still using, player councils. But towards what ends? Can these player councils serve some better or another role as a community tool than what we have available already?"

I sent in the proposal sometime mid April this year and got an acceptance response the 28th of May.

Now, I want to apologize for using the easily misconstrued word 'tool' in the subject for the lecture. We believe that the CSM is an important tool or an instrument to increase the likelihood of the EVE community being as healthy as possible. The CSM is a community instrument (tool) and in my opinion it is far from being a waste of time.

Studying what we at CCP are doing compared to what other game companies are doing is a very healthy practice I believe. And I try to be objective and critical when I look at the CSM in comparison with what the other developers are doing. This lecture is a part of that process.

Other lectures that I have held about the CSM are:
NoNick, Bilbao, Spain - May 2010
GDC Austin (now GDC Online) - September 2009
GDC San Fransisco - March 2009

If you want to read about other developers that have gone further than CCP has with the CSM, you can read about 'A Tale in the Desert 4's laws' or 'LambdaMOO'.

FatFreddy
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:34:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
We believe that the CSM is an important tool or an instrument to increase the likelihood of the EVE community being as healthy as possible.




Military experts Some dudes are predicting the surge in "community health" to take merely 18 months+n.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:43:00 - [9]
 

@CCP Xhagen: It would be great if you could share a link to your presentation in this thread once you've given it at the conference. Any chance of that?





Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.08.01 22:53:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: FatFreddy
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
We believe that the CSM is an important tool or an instrument to increase the likelihood of the EVE community being as healthy as possible.




Military experts Some dudes are predicting the surge in "community health" to take merely 18 months+n.


He is correct however, and I do think he is honest in this belief. Let me put it this way, it is not the PRC Social Media marketing we get served in other places, nor is the comment subject to the usual CCP marketing "overexposure" challenge.

If anything, the CSM process - with all its flaws and issues and its highlighting of internal CCP challenges as a commercial organisation - is one of the aspects still in line with one of CCP's core company values: transparancy. This aside of its experimental nature, its evolution of role and purpose, etc.

All the crazy stuff aside that have happened since the Reykjavik sessions of this CSM, it is quite clear that as an instrument the CSM exists quite well as an instrument of channeling and focusing community communications, and sentiment. That this is a double edged blade, is something that speaks for itself - and that's not a bad thing, since the CSM even as an experiment prior to its stakeholder role (and even now as sociological observation point) has a wide variety of other current and potential uses. For all parties involved.

That being said, considering the CSM this round has managed to somehow let CCP demonstrate its own bottlenecks and differences in perspective, I do think it is fair to say that even within the current limitations and frustrations - as a process - the CSM has a definite value to many player perspectives.

But, I also think the time of experimentation is over with it. A player council like the CSM, it's been a few years of experimentation, sure, but those days are over. Just like Hilmar once said, "perception is reality". Simply out of that viewpoint, the expectation of the CSM by CCP to get to work within roles and terms signals that the experimentation phase is over. Nobody denies it is an evolutionary concept, and it will continue to evolve and grow and possibly even change. But, it's yet another case where the pressure point is once again with CCP. If this is to be serious, it is time to get to work, and CSM has already begun that work. Visibly, with accountability, with workflow and with clear communications and timelines.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.02 00:40:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 02/08/2010 00:59:03
Edited by: Mynxee on 02/08/2010 00:43:44
Originally by: Virtuozzo
But, I also think the time of experimentation is over with it. A player council like the CSM, it's been a few years of experimentation, sure, but those days are over. Just like Hilmar once said, "perception is reality". Simply out of that viewpoint, the expectation of the CSM by CCP to get to work within roles and terms signals that the experimentation phase is over. Nobody denies it is an evolutionary concept, and it will continue to evolve and grow and possibly even change. But, it's yet another case where the pressure point is once again with CCP. If this is to be serious, it is time to get to work, and CSM has already begun that work. Visibly, with accountability, with workflow and with clear communications and timelines.



Is it wrong to have an e-crush on Virt?

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
I sent in the proposal sometime mid April this year and got an acceptance response the 28th of May.


I'm surprised you didn't mention this at the Summit, as it might have been interesting to include in your presentation some quotes for perspective from the CSM side of the mirror.

But whatever. The thing that's on my mind is the fact that CCP's dev planning meetings are scheduled for 18 August. This is presumably when stakeholder priorities are championed when competed against the priorities of all other stakeholders. Because of the current existing limitations on the workflow, communicative, and prioritization processes for CSM-CCP interaction, we really need you there to be the CSM champion.

Yet...you'll be at GDC on the 16th giving your presentation. Then the Gamescon business meetings are 18 August. Are you planning to attend those or will you be returning to Iceland so that you can champion CSM issues at the dev meetings?

Or...have the dev meetings been rescheduled and I just don't know about that yet? Considering how many CCP folks are likely to be at GDC/Gamescon, SHOULD they be rescheduled for a time when more of the key players will be available to provide input and champion their priorities?

Update: just got an email stating that CCP Diagoras will be there instead of Petur at the dev planning meetings. WTB: More Mohawk Championship!


Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.02 03:30:00 - [12]
 

"Player Councils in MMOs: Useful Tools or Waste of Time?"

Cool - do we actually get to vote on this like we did the Game of the Year awards? I've been looking for the button to register my vote for "Waste of Time" but couldn't find it Sad .

Still, what a good anagram for the Clowncil of Stellar Management .... CSM - WoT.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.08.02 06:14:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: iP0D
A better title would have been: "player councils and Agile development, or; how to troubleshoot corporate communications, data processing, consumer product value segregation and flexible decision processes through proper application of SCRUM and best practices business development methods".

With as a catchphrase: "all decision makers are equal, but some decision makers are less equal then most".

Figures why they want the meetings in seclusion and only upon request :P




now there is an interesting event - as far as I know the Product Owner is responsible for managing the decision making process in Scrum, so I guess it's up to his due dilligence who gets involved

related thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1355044

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2010.08.02 10:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
I want to apologize for using the easily misconstrued word 'tool' in the subject for the lecture. We believe that the CSM is an important tool [..] The CSM is a community instrument (tool)


You are not apologizing. You are blaming people to misconstrue how you do refer to them as "tools". For CCP, the customer isn't always right?

CSM actions is yet another form of user generated content you do earn your daily bread with.

Or you don't earn your daily bread with, depending on how well you can guarantee quality of GM specific user generated content.

"I'm sorry to reply to your request after three weeks, i've forwarded your request without result for now, may I close this issue nevertheless?" for example is nothing one would expect from professional customer care.

What you should study is quality assurance measures across the communication pathways of parties [management,development,CSM,users} and identify single points of failure.

You might benefit way more doing that than referring to CSM in a way which can be perceived as "that's some kind of riot control stun gun".

We are paying customers, not terrorists who must get "tooled".

Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:04:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The CSM is a... tool and in my opinion it is... a waste of time.


Very interesting.... Twisted Evil

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.08.02 18:37:00 - [16]
 

someone said something like "what is the purpose of a player council anyway... flying them to Iceland ....has any company ever listened to them ...."
I have searched and browsed all the relevant threads, but I cannot find it again.
I'll reply anyway: yes, it's called a "User Group" or "User Interest Group" and while they are a pain in the butt to manage they provide invaluable information. All successful software products have them, why should an MMO be so different?

Quote:
"If this is to be serious, it is time to get to work, and CSM has already begun that work. Visibly, with accountability, with workflow and with clear communications and timelines."


I'm turning into a "Virt" fanboi as well :)

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.03 03:44:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Is it wrong to have an e-crush on Virt?


I think how much of a Virt fanboy you are is directly related to how much of what he says you actually understand. Half the time I like him, half the time my eyes glaze over - I mean, I'm sure he's making good sense in the abstract, but there's a limit on how much business-speak I can parse.

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.08.03 09:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Joe SMASH
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The CSM is a... tool and in my opinion it is... a waste of time.


Very interesting.... Twisted Evil


Confirming the CSM are viewed as tools by CCP.


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.03 12:16:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Mynxee
Is it wrong to have an e-crush on Virt?


I think how much of a Virt fanboy you are is directly related to how much of what he says you actually understand. Half the time I like him, half the time my eyes glaze over - I mean, I'm sure he's making good sense in the abstract, but there's a limit on how much business-speak I can parse.


Virt is the only poster I know of who regularly violates the forum rule that all posts must be in English, while still posting in English.

The tl;dr versions of a Virt post are usually tl;dr.


Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:46:00 - [20]
 

oi!

get to work you tools Very Happy

Stop stalking an honest player, seriously, I don't even do forums that much!


Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.05 02:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo
I don't even do forums that much!


It's not a matter of how often you do forums, it's a matter of how hard you do them.

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2010.08.05 15:56:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Now, I want to apologize for using the easily misconstrued word 'tool' in the subject for the lecture.

Stop apologizing you big girl!

Of course we knew exactly what was intended, it was just too easy, fun and needed, to let an opportunity like that, to do a in-your-face of much of the CSM (present and past), simply slide by in faked apathy.

But if you really want to take a lesson home from this, instead of just taking it as us wanting to give the CSMs some painful kicks, don't use a word like tool about (a group of) people. Instrument is not much better.
Quite apart from all the alternative meanings of Tool, there are the associations to things like physical tools and instruments. Lifeless objects which you have complete power over and have no will of their own, nor any influence on the actions you force them to carry out. To be used and put back on the shelf as needed.

Not exactly flattering for something that is some kind of three-way crossbreed between a focus group, a political lobby organization and a showpony.

You will have to forgive if it sounds harsh, but that is just because I care. I'm not going to condemn the whole of the CSM, because some have been smart enough to shut up so there is nothing to judge, but some have been a travesty, others naive and novices really putting their boots in their mouthes even if they don't all realize it. For the most blind, "tool" (get it now?) would be appropriate, perhaps bordering on compliment.
Not that the dev participation is all that innocent from the hear-say.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.08.07 18:38:00 - [23]
 

Player Councils in MMOs are only worthwhile when the game developer listens and values their input *cough*cough*CCP!*cough*cough* /angrystare


 

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