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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:09:00 - [631]
 

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
The fact that they used the lottery to begin with makes their intentions for T2 BPO's very clear.


The fact that they stopped the lottery makes their intentions even more clear.

Quote:

Frankly, whining about T2 BPO's is akin to whining about Bill Gates owning so much MS stock, while you can't just buy it from an unlimited supply at Walmart. Some commodities are intentionally designed to be exclusive and limited in quantity - both in this game and in real life.



The key difference here is that you can start your own software company and compete with MS on a level footing. And you can. But... you can't really do that in Eve because you can't do it better.

Quote:
The real complaint against T2 BPO's has always been a thinly veiled whine about asset inequality.


I contend that the real complaint has been about game rule imbalances. I've repeatedly addressed this "observation".

Quote:
There are people that have more wealth than you can currently dream of, and this is what really bothers you, as you work hard for your isk.


I tend to think of it as "hardly working and making billions per month", but keep going. :)

Quote:
You're asking this game to be something that it is not... something that it has never been, and hopefully, never will.


Correction: I'm asking for the game rules to be such that people without T2 BPOs can compete with them on an even footing.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:16:00 - [632]
 

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Forgot to compliment you on your very well written OP Akita. There are times in life where one should consider WHO they are arguing against. I'm an atheist, but I don't think I would argue with Jesus over his own existence - I'd just tell him sorry.


Its very easy to argue against someone who is wrong, and Akita is wrong here. We basically agree that the current situation with T2 BPOs is somewhat untenable - what we disagree about is how and when they should be removed.

Akita contends that T2 BPOs must first be neutered before removed. I contend that's inhumane and we should either introduce new T2 BPOs (I consider the BPO mechanic to be superior to Invention), or that we should outright remove them and yield some kind of compensation - like a BPC with a year's worth of production.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:19:00 - [633]
 

Originally by: Akita T

And that's why it was in quotes. You can't actually force, but you can convince.
You might not be able to make one specific guy give up his particular T2 BPO, but if you keep raising the offer enough, SOME guy will EVENTUALLY give up his, and you'll have one too.

Still, if your goal is for person ABC to give up his T2 XYZ BPO, that can also be achieved most of the time with ISK and patience.
... lots of bull**** ...



LOL.

Yeah.

About that.

-Liang

Ramla Sabah
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:28:00 - [634]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Originally by: Tasko Pal
I frankly like them in game as is. They make T2 production quirkier and increase the investment options for the rich.


I could not agree more. I honestly feel that the removal of T2 BPO's would leave the game less interesting and diverse than it is with them.


I honestly feel that the removal of what is effectively God Mode for certain players would leave the game a fuller, richer, and healthier place with more people.

-Liang


That God Mode is throwing 50b+ in market and sitting in one place and that 1 or 2 after T doesn't do a flying **** for that.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:28:00 - [635]
 

Originally by: Akita T

T2 BPOs are NOT fundamentally different from T1 BPOs.

And it's not really relevant. The only PRACTICAL difference is COST. In other words, barrier of entry.
In the case of T1 BPOs, the "value" barrier is artificially bottom-capped, while the "volume" barrier does not exist.
In the case of T2 BPOs, the "value" barrier is player-determined, while the "volume" barrier is artificially top-capped.
For both, a certain equilibrium is reached.
For T1 BPOs, the number increases whenever demand increases, while for T2 BPOs the value increases whenever demand increases.




I thought I'd do you a favor and underline the part of your post that contradicts you. They absolutely are fundamentally different, in ways that are bad for the game.

Quote:

And in the ABSENCE of any MFS-II BPOs, the same thing will happen to the profit margins of inventors.
In fact, thank you for picking the MFS-II as example, since it is one of those items where the vast majority is manufactured from invented BPCs.
The PERCENTAGE profit PER UNIT is ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT for the T2 BPO. What matters is ABSOLUTE profit, or if you also take into account the current market value of a MFS-II BPO, its RoI.



In an absense of MFS II BPOs, then everyone will be on the same footing, and he who puts the most effort in will win. The guy that manages buy orders, etc. Also: the percentage profit per unit/character/slot is absolutely relevant. It determines the ISK per unit of effort.

Quote:

Or in other words, at some time, SOMEBODY ELSE with ENOUGH ISK _WILL_ buy it from you.
Thus providing everybody else willing to invest the necessary startup capital with the better production alternative.



No. They won't. You made this argument later on in the thread too - that somehow everyone is rational by your own definition of the word and would instantly sell their T2 BPO.

Quote:
You sitting on an item that just sold for 32.5 bil ISK and would sell more at the same price, OR you sitting on 32.5 bil ISK is essentially the same thing.


No, it really isn't:
- Its very possible that you never paid anything for your 32.5B ISK item.
- In one situation, you have 32.5B ISK sitting in your wallet (that you can feel free to TRY and make a billion ISK/month off of). In the other you have a 32.5B ISK that you are GUARANTEED to make a billion ISK/month off of.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:32:00 - [636]
 

Quote:

And last of all, about your "very realistic to simply remove T2 BPOs from the game" quip regarding the description of the last mentioned fallacy.
YES, IT IS REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE to do it, but that is not the meaning of the word "unrealistic" that was being used by me there.
The actual meaning the word "unrealistic" was meant to convey in that context was "taking into account all real, possible consequences deriving from acting upon that idealized proposed solution".
It was not meant as an impossibility of doing something, but on the INAPPROPRIATENESS of doing it due to its consequences.



Akita, you have agreed that there are no market wide consequences for the removal of T2 BPOs. The only consequence is to people who are deliberately investing in obviously dubious game mechanics. There is no inappropriateness to be had.

-Liang

Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:48:00 - [637]
 

Compared to a new player...

100m+ SP is "god mode"

100bill+ assets is "god mode"

having already played for 6+ years in a game that doesn't reset is "god mode"

What you are complaining about, at it's core, is the accumulation of assets. If you want a game that resets assets every couple years go play WoW.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:52:00 - [638]
 

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
X is "god mode"


Nonsense. These are all examples of things that a new player can pretty well immediately start to compete in. Eve is a game all about diminishing returns - training 10x as long yields you 2% advantages. T2 BPOs provide improving advantages.

Quote:
What you are complaining about, at it's core, is the accumulation of assets.


No. I am complaining exactly about what I meant to complain about.

Quote:
If you want a game that resets assets every couple years go play WoW.


Seeing as how you know much more about WOW than me, I'll invite you to go back to WOW.

-Liang

hermot
Amarr
Serco Group PLC
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:59:00 - [639]
 

It doesn't matter who is right in this frivolous arguement as to remove or keep Tech 2 bpos.

If the people that had have won the T2 bpos in the first place on the lottery still owned all of them and no one had purchased them or traded them for something else then all would be ok; the effective removal of the T2 bpo from the original owner would not impact the game greatly, only affecting those that owned the BPOs.

The situation we face ourselves with is that people have bought or traded these T2 bpos for vast sums of isk, im sure some over 50b isk each... The removal of the BPOs from these people who have purchased them with isk they may have earnt within mechanics of the game not associated with the T2 bpo lottery system would be clearly unfair and would seem to punish people these people without just cause.

My end point is:

If CCP removed these T2 bpos from the game then the people that own them and those that have purhcased them for billions of isk would need to be compensated as this removal of asset wealth to individual players would be unnaceptable.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:02:00 - [640]
 

Originally by: hermot
If CCP removed these T2 bpos from the game then the people that own them and those that have purhcased them for billions of isk would need to be compensated as this removal of asset wealth to individual players would be unnaceptable.


While I have very little sympathy for people trading in dubious game mechanics, I tend to agree that it would be vastly preferable for there to be some compensation for the removal of T2 BPOs.

-Liang

hermot
Amarr
Serco Group PLC
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:08:00 - [641]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: hermot
If CCP removed these T2 bpos from the game then the people that own them and those that have purhcased them for billions of isk would need to be compensated as this removal of asset wealth to individual players would be unnaceptable.


While I have very little sympathy for people trading in dubious game mechanics, I tend to agree that it would be vastly preferable for there to be some compensation for the removal of T2 BPOs.

-Liang


Just to clarify, i did't mean dubious game mechanics i was simply referring to those who made isk without using T2 BPOs. Such as traders or mission running or other forms of industry.

Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:17:00 - [642]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
The fact that they used the lottery to begin with makes their intentions for T2 BPO's very clear.


The fact that they stopped the lottery makes their intentions even more clear.


As seems to be your habit, you were in such a hurry to spam a reply to each and every sentence I wrote that you missed my point entirely.

I'll elaborate, just for you Wink

There are any number of ways they could have distributed T2 BPO's. They could have just seeded them to the market (like T1 BPO's) making them available to everyone. The fact that they did not do this means that they were INTENDED to be exclusive, and limited in supply.

Originally the plan was to just slowly add more prints through the lottery if it was deemed greater supply was needed. This was abandoned not because the idea of T2 BPO's itself was deemed unfair, but because CCP needed to have a more dynamic method of price control (hence invention).

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:24:00 - [643]
 

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
As seems to be your habit, you were in such a hurry to spam a reply to each and every sentence I wrote that you missed my point entirely.


I didn't miss your point at all, and the elaboration was unnecessary. The fact that they stopped giving out T2 BPOs and that there are no T2 BPOs for new items very clearly illustrates that CCP understands that the limited distribution was a mistake in the first place.

-Liang

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:34:00 - [644]
 

Quote:
Compared to a new player...

100m+ SP is "god mode"

100bill+ assets is "god mode"

having already played for 6+ years in a game that doesn't reset is "god mode"

What you are complaining about, at it's core, is the accumulation of assets. If you want a game that resets assets every couple years go play WoW.



Winner.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
X is "god mode"


Nonsense. These are all examples of things that a new player can pretty well immediately start to compete in. Eve is a game all about diminishing returns - training 10x as long yields you 2% advantages. T2 BPOs provide improving advantages.

Quote:
What you are complaining about, at it's core, is the accumulation of assets.


No. I am complaining exactly about what I meant to complain about.

Quote:
If you want a game that resets assets every couple years go play WoW.


Seeing as how you know much more about WOW than me, I'll invite you to go back to WOW.

-Liang


So explain your view point on a six year indy character having researched 100+ T1 blueprints to perfect ME and a new character starting with.. none. I hardly see how that is diminshing returns.. especially when a new character doesn't have Production Eff V on top of that.. nor most likely not having access to POS arrays to speed production lines.

A T2 BPO can crash n burn.. you could be someone that invested billions in a T2 prop mod. Then Tyrannis hits.. what happened? What do you think happened to the value of that T2 BPO? As if the T3 cruisers didn't poke hole in several other T2 BPOs.. and the implementation of new ships/mods, drop changes, current mechanic changes will effect any and all T2 BPO at some point. There absolutely no truth to them providing improving advantages, they may infact cripple a player. While Invention can go 'Oh, that sucks.. time to change' with around zero to tiny amounts of lose occured, especially compared to a T2 BPO holder. The lottery is gone.. but the lottery still very much exists while you hold one. How is that fair to the T2 BPO holders?

Oh.. it isn't. Risk vs Reward.

Surprising funny thing tho.. have better returns on years old T1 perfect ME blueprints. Much safer, have had growing, solid increased value over time, much less chance of one crashing in value. The isk invested into one is also far, far less than a T2 BPO that comes with increased risks. Weird, huh?

So with that in mind.. I guess we might as well remove all perfect ME T1 blueprints that are of atleast idk.. four years old. They give some players an unfair production advantage. Those greedy, self earning bastards. How dare they grow and excel in EVE's market. **** them spending their rl money and have played for more years than a noob, thats like.. so unfair.

How dare those *******s that earned all that isk on their own spend their hard earned isk on a very risk T2 BPO. They shouldn't even have that option to dump their isk into. It's not fair to the people that can not earn that amount.

Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:39:00 - [645]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
X is "god mode"


Nonsense. These are all examples of things that a new player can pretty well immediately start to compete in. Eve is a game all about diminishing returns - training 10x as long yields you 2% advantages. T2 BPOs provide improving advantages.


First, it's incredibly bad forum etiquette to attribute your paraphrasing as a quote. If you want to paraphrase then don't quote.

Second, a new player cannot start to immediately compete in those areas, and I think you know this. I can fly practically any ship I want, fit how I want, without its loss being a big deal (this is due to asset wealth, not T2 BPO's). I fail to see how a request to level the playing field in the case of T2 BPO's is much different from a request to level the playing field in any other case. I'm starting to think that even WoW might not be "fair" enough for you. Perhaps you should just stick to single player games.

hermot
Amarr
Serco Group PLC
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:40:00 - [646]
 

Originally by: "Shai 'Hulud"
The fact that they did not do this means that they were INTENDED to be exclusive, and limited in supply.


Correct

Originally by: "Liang Nuren"
The fact that they stopped giving out T2 BPOs and that there are no T2 BPOs for new items very clearly illustrates that CCP understands that the limited distribution was a mistake


Correct other than the "in the first place", as they only understood this after a certain amount of time had expired exposing the flaws in their initial plan.

CCP did intend T2 bpos to be exclusive items and designed a system to make it so, over time it transpired that this gave some people unfair advantages that didn't reflect how industry should work. Such as in real like so to speak (spare the flames for comparison to real life its just an example), for a certain amount of time someone has a "patent" but that doesnt last forever and exclusivity is lost once the patent expires.

The fact that T2 bpos where so exlclusive led to "Cartels" (for lack of a better description) and prices where fixed to maximise profit. CCP then introduced invention which essentially mimics an expiry on these patents and allows other players to immitate the products or in eve, they can produce t2 BPC's with varying ME and PE based on input values.

There are many sides to the arguement im sure but in its simplest form its probably fair to say that T2 bpo's no longer provide an "unfair" advantage to those that own them, thus mitigating the arguement for their removal.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:42:00 - [647]
 

Originally by: Umega

So explain your view point on a six year indy character having researched 100+ T1 blueprints to perfect ME and a new character starting with.. none. I hardly see how that is diminshing returns.. especially when a new character doesn't have Production Eff V on top of that.. nor most likely not having access to POS arrays to speed production lines.



You are confused. If I want to get into making Armageddons, I buy an NPC seeded Armageddon BPO. Then I research it. These are actions that are freely available.

Quote:
A T2 BPO can crash n burn.


And in that situation, the T2 BPO advantage is actually strongest. Remember, I'm not complaining about the raw profits. In fact, this quite adequately addresses the rest of your post too.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:44:00 - [648]
 

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
First, it's incredibly bad forum etiquette to attribute your paraphrasing as a quote. If you want to paraphrase then don't quote.


Pretty standard practice, actually.

Quote:
I fail...


Obviously.

-Liang

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:56:00 - [649]
 

Edited by: Umega on 27/12/2010 00:55:57
You are freely avialable to purchase a T2 BPO. If you believe their advantages are as extreme as you do.. then what is stopping you from aquiring some? Removal advocates tend to avoid this question with questions of their own. Will you be one of the first to actually answer it?

And while 'seeded' T1 BPOs clearly exist.. researched T1 BPOs are not 'seeded'. You can purchase 0/0 ME/PE T1 BPO from an NPC.. but then you must spend the time to make it actually worth using. Time spent waiting for the profits to actually take place.

You can also do whatever you enjoy to make isks.. spend the time to make enough to purchase an already researched T1 BPO. How is that any different than spending the time to make enough isk for a T2 BPO, hmmmm?

Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.27 00:59:00 - [650]
 

Originally by: hermot
Originally by: "Liang Nuren"
The fact that they stopped giving out T2 BPOs and that there are no T2 BPOs for new items very clearly illustrates that CCP understands that the limited distribution was a mistake


Correct other than the "in the first place", as they only understood this after a certain amount of time had expired exposing the flaws in their initial plan.

Good Post Hermot, but I would like to make a small correction here. The problem with T2 BPO's was that they had no competition, invention solved this. If they had deemed the exclusivity of the prints to be the problem they would have most likely just seeded T2 BPO's to the market, rather than implementing an entirely new system to balance them.

hermot
Amarr
Serco Group PLC
Posted - 2010.12.27 01:31:00 - [651]
 

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud

Good Post Hermot, but I would like to make a small correction here. The problem with T2 BPO's was that they had no competition, invention solved this. If they had deemed the exclusivity of the prints to be the problem they would have most likely just seeded T2 BPO's to the market, rather than implementing an entirely new system to balance them.


Yeah your right, and i think its safe to say that "invention" as a system does make the ability to produce T2 items available to any player willing to invest both the skills and isk into doing so and if they think carefuly about it they can make a lot of isk doing so.

I also believe that having T2 bpos in the game has very little (if any) effect on the universal market as demand for T2 items far exceeds the supply that can be achieved through T2 bpo production alone therefore allowing invention to compete somewhat equally to the owners of BPOs.


Beanard
Posted - 2010.12.27 01:40:00 - [652]
 

A) FIND A GOOD REASON WHY T2 BPOs MUST BE REMOVED

Why not?

B) DETERMINE A FAIR SYSTEM FOR THEIR REMOVAL

They where given away free, no compensation required for removal.

C) ARGUE WHY THE RESULTING SITUATION WOULD BE BETTER OVERALL THAN THE CURRENT ONE.

People would compete on the same basis instead of some having an advantage given to them by CCP.

(didn't read the whole thread just op)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.27 02:13:00 - [653]
 

Originally by: hermot

I also believe that having T2 bpos in the game has very little (if any) effect on the universal market as demand for T2 items far exceeds the supply that can be achieved through T2 bpo production alone therefore allowing invention to compete somewhat equally to the owners of BPOs.



Being able to sell your wares for a small profit is not the same thing as competing somewhat equally.

-Liang

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2010.12.27 03:13:00 - [654]
 

Edited by: Stella SGP on 27/12/2010 04:55:53
Dear Liang,

While you are at it please support my idea for removing titans because there are no titans seeded on market and because I run a small corp and do not have sov of any system, so I'm not allowed to build any by myself. Also I refuse to buy it from other players on forums and in addition they cost a ridiculous amount, hence I believe the game is rigged against me in favor of rich players and null sec drama queens.

Oh by the way I'm an empire dweller, and I don't give a rats ass about what happens in null sec, and I have no intention of getting myself stuck in a titan I can't dock anywhere, so actually their existence doesn't affect me one bit, but you see its a perception problem. I can't get one alone and also I can't be arsed to work for one either. Titans are unachievable by solo players like me and newbies alike.

So, I propose that they should either be removed or made freely available and affordable to all players. Compensate current titan owners with 365 BS of their choice, enough for them to pvp and lose 1 ship everyday. I seriously have very little sympathy for people who invest in dubious overpowered ships like that, so I don't care if the compensation is fair for them.

I don't care if titans are really overpowered or not, its a perception problem, the game presents itself like I can own one too, but in reality, I can't. And seeing it on eve trailers isn't helping either. A titan would be so fun because I can go around low/null sec and zap everyone. (I know thats not how they work but whatever T2 BPO owners are raking in billions upon billions of isk every month too right?)

Also I don't care what anyone's argument is because its a perception problem for both me and new players. Having a titans is like playing counter-strike with a golden gun and aimbot. You can 1 shot anything, so its cheating. I will also not look at any opinions anyone have because I know I am right because I am right, so no compromises.

Either remove titans or make them freely available.


Stella SGP

PS. Hey Liang I tried my best to sound like you in this argument, have I done well enough to start a thread on it?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.27 03:37:00 - [655]
 

Quote:
... a really bad attempt ...


This is a poor argument because all the components required to build a Titan are freely available. Also: individual players can absolutely afford Titans. :)

-Liang

Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.27 04:08:00 - [656]
 

Originally by: Stella SGP
PS. Hey Liang I tried my best to sound like you in this argument, have I done well enough to start a thread on it?

I had to do a double take... you had me fooled ugh

Are you sure you're not Liang's Titan hating alt?

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also: individual players can absolutely afford Titans. :)

Also: individual players can absolutely afford T2 BPO's


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.12.27 04:09:00 - [657]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 27/12/2010 04:42:01
Originally by: Liang Nuren
We basically agree that the current situation with T2 BPOs is somewhat untenable - what we disagree about is how and when they should be removed.

No, all we really agree on is that the methodology for the initial T2 BPO distribution was a mistake AND that if invention would have been, umm, well, invented back in the day it could have been a better alternative to introducing T2 BPOs in the first place.
But the fact the T2 BPOs were introduced at all in the distant past is irrelevant, and how much of a mistake the distribution method was is also irrelevant.

The only halfway decent alternative for it would have been to have a long-running NPC-issued auction for each of them.
And even there, people would have still complained that the ORDER and/or TIMING used for the auctions were somehow unfair, or at least that somebody could be informed about it and make an unfair snipe or whatever else they can possibly complain about.

We ALSO disagree on WHETHER they should be removed. I argue that the current situation is just fine, you argue that it is a disaster.
See below.

Quote:
Akita contends that T2 BPOs must first be neutered before removed. I contend that's inhumane and we should either introduce new T2 BPOs (I consider the BPO mechanic to be superior to Invention), or that we should outright remove them and yield some kind of compensation - like a BPC with a year's worth of production.

It's called "making a concession". As in, ASSUMING that at some time, CCP decides that they are damaging to the interests of the game and should be made non-functional, how should they proceed vis-a-vis their gradual removal from the T2 production chain.
At no point in time do I ever say that I believe CCP should ever decide that, in fact, I repeatedly make a point that the current situation is just fine the way it is.

Do I have to preface all my "alternative hypothetical methods" with a "in case CCP ever goes bananas and stupidly decides they want T2 BPOs gone" segment ?!?

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2010.12.27 04:18:00 - [658]
 

Edited by: Stella SGP on 27/12/2010 06:13:08
Originally by: Liang
This is a poor argument because all the components required to build a Titan are freely available. Also: individual players can absolutely afford Titans. :)

-Liang


Dear Liang,

Yes, but the other components such as game rules, do not allow me to build one in empire, low sec or npc stations, so its not fair to solo/casual players. Yes I am sure majority of the players can easily afford 60 bil for a titan, but really 5 bil to buy a T2 bpo is just downright ridiculous.

Still they should be removed or made affordable based on all the "inspiring" arguments against T2 bpos which can similarly be made about titans or any other thing which is unattainable according my playstyle such as State Issue Raven, Opux yacht and Veldnaught.

I have a problem with people having stuff which I don't, its a perception problem and it ****es off me and many aspiring new players too because they are not seeded in npc markets and only way for us to get them is to beg players who has it to sell them to us.

You are my inspiration, so please tell me how I should better my arguments. There is so much I can learn from you!

-Stella

PS. See, I'm even learning to sign off all my post, just like you too!

Edited to quote properly like Liang and ...

Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Are you sure you're not Liang's Titan hating alt


Disappointingly enough no, I'm just a fanboy of his Sad

Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.12.27 04:29:00 - [659]
 

Quote:
... a really bad attempt ...

You still forgot to quote like this Stella ugh

Paraphrasing disguised as a quote also works Wink

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2010.12.27 04:32:00 - [660]
 

Edited by: Stella SGP on 27/12/2010 04:46:07
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Quote:
... a really bad attempt ...

You still forgot to quote like this Stella ugh

Paraphrasing disguised as a quote also works Wink


Mad I'm such a slow learner, hey maybe we should remove intelligence too! So I can be equal to everyone else.

Edit: Damn! I still didn't quote like him.


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