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Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.24 09:39:00 - [1]
 

I was looking for a list of CSM's and found this: http://www.eve-csm.com/ - perhaps it should be updated or closed.

Question: it looks like all CSM's are veterans - has it been discussed earlier, if there should be a chair for a representative from the younger generation of EVE players?

The list is here btw: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=763

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.24 12:55:00 - [2]
 

New and or inexperienced players typically take less of an interest in the community and everything else that surrounds EVE - so how are you going to get them to vote?

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.24 15:24:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 24/07/2010 15:30:23
Originally by: Sokratesz
New and or inexperienced players typically take less of an interest in the community and everything else that surrounds EVE - so how are you going to get them to vote?


I just think it would make the player representation more balanced if there was a younger representative in the CSM - like a reserved employee chair in corporate Boards.

Edit: not sure how it could be implemented - perhaps the departing CSM and CCP agree on 3 nominations

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.24 17:40:00 - [4]
 

New players do not know about the CSM. Veteran players do. I work with new people all the time in eve. This is from my candidate page for the last election.

Quote:
First a little about who I am. I ran for CSM4 last November. My main involvement in game covers an area that has been left out by previous and current CSM. Entry level PvP within Eve. For the past 2 and a half years(changed for the quote) I have used my in game time to expose new (and old) players to Pew Pew Pew PvP within Eve. Both with fleet/gang support and experience as well as basic PvP class instruction.


I have started a video training program to go along with this. Saves me the time of doing classes and people can re watch at leisure.

I actually got about 40-60% fewer votes then I had expected this last election while presuing the "newbie" vote.

An actual new player on the CSM would be difficult.

- Eve is a deep game and new players have not waded far enough to know enough about the broader aspects.

- A new player will not have enough reputation in Eve to gain enough votes. The CSM is largely a popularity contest. Qualified people do make it in for the most part but good people are left out because they are not "A crowd" enough.

- As stated, the main constituency is unaware of the election so do not/can not vote for the newbie.

There are some other points but I forgot them while typing (just woke up and eating breakfast while typing this).


While I am more focused on entry level PvP it exposes me to the newbie experience. Equally important is that I hear and have to come up with answers to what the newbies are dealing with. You don't hand a 2 week old pilot a T2 fitted HAC and say "fly this". You give them a Meta 1 fitted cruiser or frig instead.

I do think the CSM and CCP is missing an important element without having me there (any worthy CSM candidate could say the same). There are many people with the same agenda both at CCP and in the CSM and my views are defiantly outliers. That is a good thing to shake up the group think but, group think is what gets people elected in the first place.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.24 20:19:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
I has it been discussed earlier, if there should be a chair for a representative from the younger generation of EVE players?



Absolutely not. EVE is one of the deepest games short of something like chess or go. It's got a famously steep learning curve and people can and do spend years learning about small subsets of the entire game. Experts in, say, fleet PvP aren't generally experts in market manipulation, and they aren't generally experts in lowsec ganking and they aren't generally experts in running a lvl 4 high mission running corp and they...

What benefit would it be to have a bunch of green players giving input directly to CCP?

We generally want people who are knowledgeable and experienced. New players simply aren't.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.24 20:40:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 24/07/2010 20:50:15
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
I has it been discussed earlier, if there should be a chair for a representative from the younger generation of EVE players?



Absolutely not. EVE is one of the deepest games short of something like chess or go. It's got a famously steep learning curve and people can and do spend years learning about small subsets of the entire game. Experts in, say, fleet PvP aren't generally experts in market manipulation, and they aren't generally experts in lowsec ganking and they aren't generally experts in running a lvl 4 high mission running corp and they...

What benefit would it be to have a bunch of green players giving input directly to CCP?

We generally want people who are knowledgeable and experienced. New players simply aren't.


by "we" I assume that you mean "you"? Just because you have many years experience in the game does not neccessarily make you better at it. I have met quite a few Veteran Noobs in this game, who has absolutely no clue about some of the newer features.

Furthermore, having a CSM "representing" the new generation capsuleers will not cut it - it's like asking your Grandmother to show up for a Focus Group in College.

I would like to see a 6 month - 1 year old Capsuleer on the CSM - just my humble opinion

Edit: check CCP Zulu's last paragraph in the Dev Blog - we obviously need to improve things on our side as well - it takes two to tango

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.24 21:07:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius

by "we" I assume that you mean "you"?


No. The EVE community and/or people who want quality representatives want to make sure that their reps are both knowledgeable and experienced.

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius

Furthermore, having a CSM "representing" the new generation capsuleers will not cut it


Of course it will. Experienced players know what tools a new player needs and what areas can use improvement. New players don't even know what those areas are.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.24 21:46:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 24/07/2010 21:47:30
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius

by "we" I assume that you mean "you"?


No. The EVE community and/or people who want quality representatives want to make sure that their reps are both knowledgeable and experienced.

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius

Furthermore, having a CSM "representing" the new generation capsuleers will not cut it


Of course it will. Experienced players know what tools a new player needs and what areas can use improvement. New players don't even know what those areas are.



re 1: I do believe I'm part of the community and I disagree on experience. Reminds me of the Peter principle: promoted to incompetence
re 2: strongly disagree - what tools did you use x years ago? what tools do new generation players need? there is a related topic here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1358635

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.24 22:22:00 - [9]
 

I said "we in general". You're allowed to want someone who can't possibly speak as an authority on any part of EVE other than not knowing what they're doing, but that doesn't make them a good person to suggest anything to CCP.
And no, new players today don't need anything all that specific. You seem to have missed the point that now they even have a Wiki. When I started, we only had the dramatically incomplete tutorial, and we still learned how to play the game.

We don't need CSM delegates whose contribution will be to talk about all the things they don't understand.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.24 22:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
I said "we in general". You're allowed to want someone who can't possibly speak as an authority on any part of EVE other than not knowing what they're doing, but that doesn't make them a good person to suggest anything to CCP.
And no, new players today don't need anything all that specific. You seem to have missed the point that now they even have a Wiki. When I started, we only had the dramatically incomplete tutorial, and we still learned how to play the game.

We don't need CSM delegates whose contribution will be to talk about all the things they don't understand.


I started this thread just because I was curious if it had been suggested and discussed before. The responses I have seen confirms to me that we really need a couple of younger pilots on the CSM.

btw: I rest my case, the tutorials and career missions are excellent. They give a good introduction to the general features in EVE. You should try the new Advanced Combat or Exploration - just hit F12

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.25 04:06:00 - [11]
 

The whole point of the CSM is to elect experienced pilots because they know what the hell is going on, therefore making them able to render good decisions, therefore enabling them to communicate ideas and suggestions to CCP more effectively.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.25 06:09:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: captain foivos
The whole point of the CSM is to elect experienced pilots because they know what the hell is going on, therefore making them able to render good decisions, therefore enabling them to communicate ideas and suggestions to CCP more effectively.

not correct - this is the point of the CSM: "The Council of Stellar Management (CSM) is a player-elected council to represent the views of the players to CCP" (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CSM)

Game experience and knowledge does not neccessarily mean that you are a good decision maker - being a good decision maker does NOT make you good at communication.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.25 08:13:00 - [13]
 

If an able, articulate and insightful new player successfully runs for CSM, than that's excellent. More power to him or her, I say.

But a CSM seat specifically reserved for one interest group? Not so excellent. Should we also have a seat reserved for female players? Miners? Pirates?

Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:04:00 - [14]
 

No objections to a new player being on the CSM, the new player experience has changed a lot and many of us jaded oldtimers may not have experienced it in the current form. However, I'm strongly opposed to reserved seats for any group. A new player getting elected by demonstrasting strong communication skills and informed opinions will have earned his place, someone getting in just because a slot has to be filled won't.

Alternatively, I'll settle for a reserved seat for 30-somethings currently having their morning coffee while watching the warmup show for today's F1 race and posting jaded stuff on the internet.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:27:00 - [15]
 

Hey, look at me. I'm relatively new (2.5 years), and until I ran for CSM I had near-zero forum presence.

Supporting newbies is definitely something on my radar because it's clearly a retention issue (and more players = more iskies for CCP = more resources = hopefully, more time spent polishing). In fact, it and the UI are slowly becoming two major themes I am working on during this session.

One thing I would like to see is for some of the players to get together and develop a really good "Clueless Newbie's Guide to New Eden" that picks up where the NPE leaves off (and the NPE should point to it). There's a lot of good content in the wiki at present, but it is a bit scattered and needs to be organized in a better way.

Ashina, your videos (and other people's) would fit in quite nicely there.

PS: technically speaking, I do represent the younger generation of EVE players, since my 17 year old son plays EVE. Which means every week or so he slouches up to me with some sob story ("Dad, my BS got blown up") and mooches 100M off me. EVE really is a sandbox game...

Ava Stonlai
Posted - 2010.07.25 12:18:00 - [16]
 

Do or should the CSM members take an interest in new player experience/issues of course. Should some 6 month to 12 month new player be on the CSM, depends on the player. The main drawback for a newbie is they don't understand or have any real idea about loads of the game so when those issues come up they have much more work to do, assuming 'work' will cut it to contribute or otherwise be unengaged in the discussion, ie an empty seat. Most of CSM issues are things that players have been dealing with for quite a while, *IF* the new player isn't interested in the game they probably haven't tried out various things or played in varying ways this is a handicap for being a valued member of the CSM. Only when a fresh view of a new player, which boils down to not knowing things, could their voice be useful. I don't see how veterans, some only a couple years old are so disconnected they can't grasp a new players view by simply trying. There is also CCP looking at the new player experience as they do want new players and would like to keep them.

I'd say first more new players should get involved, voting would help, on the forums reading and participating before some call for a new player, any new player is championed to represent them.

Absolutely a new player could do well but it depends on how active/interested in the game they are. Just having a new player on to represent new players is a bad idea, what the CSM doesn't need is someone who's views are based on not knowing things or being inexperienced. CSM is a new experience for most players, not all of them have been involved in this sort of software development situation.

Lethema Trikarn
Grey Nomads
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2010.08.02 23:02:00 - [17]
 

As someone who helps run a corp comprising of a large inflow of "newbs", I have to say that what has been said about representation for newer players on the CSM is something that does need to be addressed. Looking at it (and having had some experience in SWG in their profession based system way back when), leaving out the majority of your player base is a recipe for disaster.

Whilst I can appreciate what Finnagain Zero says, I do not agree with him. Many people come to this game having played other MMO's in the past. I know for myself that we have "new eve players" who have been playing MMO's since the days of MUD. To say that these people cannot bring anything to Eve is a very blinkered view of peoples abilities.

Even veterans of the game (I have been playing since 2004) can still be considered nubs in a lot of things. I know that there are still plenty of things in this game that I have yet to try - and that's even after all these years playing. And on the reverse side of the coin, I have corp members who after a couple of months in game, are as good as, if not better than, people who have played the game for years.

To restrict the membership of the CSM to just a small subset of the player base does defeat the purpose of the Council for Stellar Management. If it is not representative of all players, then it will only ever be of interest to the few.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.03 12:49:00 - [18]
 

I disagree that a chair on the CSM should automatically be reserved for a newer player. Instead, if a newer player wants on the CSM, then they should work to get their votes the same as any other candidate. If they manage to get elected even without having a lot of prior time in-game building up a network or a following, then they probably really do have what it takes to get up to speed on the game knowledge needed to be a contributing and productive member of CSM.

CSM is NOT an easy job. It requires some degree of knowledge of game mechanics and history. I suspect new players would have a very difficult time weighing in productively on the wide variety of issues raised and "bigger picture" discussions that take place. I would be concerned that the CSM process would get bogged down worse than it is already by the need to have to bring such players up to speed on topics they knew nothing about so that they could at least understand the context of an issue well enough to cast "informed" votes at working meetings. You may think I sound elitist, but I am merely making a practical observation.

However, interested new players CAN get involved. There's nothing stopping a new player from getting in touch with a CSM delegate and offering to work with them regarding new player issues. Any CSM who is engaged in the job of being a delegate should welcome this. In fact, I can easily imagine a "New Player Committee" that is mentored so to speak by a CSM. The committe could do the leg work on proposals to address new player issues, bring those to their CSM mentor, and then the CSM mentor could advise them on the proposal, coach them in posting and getting support for it, then assuming that works out, the delegate could raise the issue in a meeting for a CSM vote.

The benefit of that approach is that a) more new players can get involved, b) they learn more about the game and CSM process along the way, and c) the mentor can give the new players community exposure which would be useful ground-laying for the new players' own CSM campaign should they decide to run.

It would be pretty neat if part of the responsibility of being a CSM delegate was to "adopt" one special interest player committee to work with on non-NDA stuff. I have thought about this some and have several ideas about how it might work, the processes that might be used, and the benefits to be gained. Just haven't had time to put those thoughts together in a "CSM Mentors Guide for Player Special Interest Groups". And...to be honest...this is not a program that would appeal to all CSM delegates, as the amount of time and effort each is able or willing to put into this volunteer position varies widely.

However, given the current situation regarding the lack of dev resources for CSM issues for the next few expansions, I've been trying to do non-issues related CSM stuff that is both tangible and productive. Producing a guide like this might be one of those things. If people have ideas about the concept, I'd love to hear them.


Lethema Trikarn
Grey Nomads
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2010.08.04 00:26:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Lethema Trikarn on 04/08/2010 00:28:28
I don't think anyone is advocating that a relatively new player be elected to the chairperson of the CSM, rather that there should be some consideration for the newer players of the game. I think the confusion arose with the use of the word "chair".

Back on the topic though, the complexities of the game are not some mystical thing that only the aged and wizened veterans can understand. They are just game mechanics afterall and there is a lot of commonality in this game and other MMO's. I know from experience, there are plenty of much more complex and intricate systems around than Eve Online. To myself though, to use this as an excuse for effectively excluding the majority of the player base is disheartening.

What is surprising and alarming though is that whilst there is a recognition from CCP and CSM members themselves, that the CSM is struggling to gain recognition with the larger player base, members of it, as well as it's advocates, are at the same time arguing that it should not be actively looking at recruiting from a greater variety of the player base.

If an attitude like this is adhered to, all you gain is a continuing alienation of the players who the CSM is supposed to be representing. You may feel like you are doing them all a favor, but they will see things as being completely the opposite.

I know people appreciate the work that you put into the Mynxee and your attitudes to the player base as a whole - but it does seem to be lost of others within the CSM (as well as some of the more vocal participants on the forums).

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.04 10:54:00 - [20]
 

I agree with Mynxee, to be effective on the CSM you need to have a proper and thorough understanding of the game, and with Eve's complexity that can take a while.

But new player concerns are definately taken into account! I know I have voted on issues one way or another based on how they would impact new pilots. While I'm not a newbie anymore, I do spend most of my ingame time interacting with new pilots (in Eve University Smile).

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.08.04 11:05:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
But new player concerns are definately taken into account! I know I have voted on issues one way or another based on how they would impact new pilots. While I'm not a newbie anymore, I do spend most of my ingame time interacting with new pilots (in Eve University Smile).

Agony also teach a fair number of newer players as well as older players who are just new to PVP. That experience is vital when considering the impact of proposals.


 

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