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blankseplocked [proposal] Banking Evolved: Consequences and Incentives
 
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Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.07.20 23:14:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Anna Weston
Originally by: Breaker77
How does a company confirm that?
2 different [...] Now you have 2 accounts that are separate and as long as no one runs their mouth, they are played by the same player.
Anyhow, how many broadband connections do you have at your house? I think most of us would find it non-trivial to have to run EVE accounts from separate IPs!

One problem to keep in mind is that the "bad actors" who would seek to improperly game a reputation system might be amongst the few people who are most willing to figure out how to do all the devious things that Breaker77 mentioned.


Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz
The CEO, directors, and staff put up $250 each. [...] All of the parties will have agreed up-front to the terms and have deposited their money.

In some ways, that sounds like you would be selling a $250 ticket to obtain a privileged position from which to scam.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.20 23:21:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Anna Weston
Originally by: Breaker77
How does a company confirm that?
2 different [...] Now you have 2 accounts that are separate and as long as no one runs their mouth, they are played by the same player.
Anyhow, how many broadband connections do you have at your house? I think most of us would find it non-trivial to have to run EVE accounts from separate IPs!

One problem to keep in mind is that the "bad actors" who would seek to improperly game a reputation system might be amongst the few people who are most willing to figure out how to do all the devious things that Breaker77 mentioned.



Not just that, but it is easy to do. As already mention by someone else, his credit card and his wifes card. Plus with proxy servers you can have unlimited IP addresses. No amount of work required by a company to ensure that one person only has one account could be done to prevent it. Short of them physically meeting every person starting an account.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.20 23:25:00 - [63]
 

Guys, I think we can all imagine how to circumnavigate various parts of the EULA, but how about we NOT discuss it in my thread? Very Happy

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2010.07.21 00:08:00 - [64]
 

Honestly.. This endless banking discussion is really rather simple..

Make sure its run by the right people.

Make sure its rather transparent, so users can see how its compartmentalized and security is handled.

Make sure the risk is shared widely internally and externally.

In short..

Make it public owned, and make internal and external projects to produce the profits needed.

With transparency comes more trust.

I see no reason to bring this out of game.. there are plenty of ways to keep it within the current game.


Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.07.21 00:10:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Honestly.. This endless banking discussion is really rather simple..

Make sure its run by the right people.

Make sure its rather transparent, so users can see how its compartmentalized and security is handled.

Make sure the risk is shared widely internally and externally.

In short..

Make it public owned, and make internal and external projects to produce the profits needed.

With transparency comes more trust.

I see no reason to bring this out of game.. there are plenty of ways to keep it within the current game.




No we do not want unlimited buy/sell orders!
Now go back to your cave!

Syds Sinclair
Posted - 2010.07.21 01:50:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Why do banks need to exist in Eve? Just because we have banks in real life, does not necessarily mean we need to have them in Eve



A bank can be a platform, the bow that can fire arrows (the 3rd party initiatives).

If I wanted to start an added value service that involved people depositing money in accounts, using a bank as mediator would simplify the process tenfold.



..So a bank would benefit the owner(s) (BOD). Tell me how it would benefit the depositors. 3% safe (lol ya rite) a month interest? Nothing else? Oh ok, like I said before, banks in Eve are a novelty that benefit only:

Role players who like to pretend they are financially mature, and deposit their excess isk into a safe (lol ya rite) venture.
Role players who like to be the chief of an online "omglolbanking service."

There is no reason for a bank in Eve. Anyone scammed post EBANK deserves to lose their isk.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.07.21 09:54:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Syds Sinclair
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Why do banks need to exist in Eve? Just because we have banks in real life, does not necessarily mean we need to have them in Eve



A bank can be a platform, the bow that can fire arrows (the 3rd party initiatives).

If I wanted to start an added value service that involved people depositing money in accounts, using a bank as mediator would simplify the process tenfold.



..So a bank would benefit the owner(s) (BOD). Tell me how it would benefit the depositors. 3% safe (lol ya rite) a month interest? Nothing else? Oh ok, like I said before, banks in Eve are a novelty that benefit only:

Role players who like to pretend they are financially mature, and deposit their excess isk into a safe (lol ya rite) venture.
Role players who like to be the chief of an online "omglolbanking service."

There is no reason for a bank in Eve. Anyone scammed post EBANK deserves to lose their isk.



your forgot the depositors/clients, that like to look at their imaginary funds/bank accounts grow!

But you are right, it is roleplaying.

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2010.07.21 10:01:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
There's no distortion about this. We had a hypothetical idea of tying future informational services to donators, either through ISK or $. The $ would be nice to subsidize the server fees that the host currently pays. We asked CCP through a petition chain if we could give out informational andnon-ISK/asset services/rewards to donators as a way of thanking them. We were told yes.

I am simply saying that this conflicts with what was said earlier in this thread by Zymurgist. Luckily this is a ways off for us, but I would rather see clarification now than later.
I did not include you into that, as I said, the difference would probably be that the extra info that you would be providing is separated from eve with another layer, since it would not be info that refers to the game, but to the service you are providing, which only link with eve is the isk and characters (ie: it has no reference to anything that happens in the game).

My point is that I don't see any useful info that could be offered by a bank in the same fashion as you would, unrelated to the game. And the distortion quote refers to the fact that no matter how you dress it, if you offer information of eve markets or anything directly related to eve and you charge rl money for it you would be doing something that is not allowed for any application right now, so is forbidden unless they change the rules.

PS: I'm assuming from the start that all graphs and extra info that you would be offering would be refered to the poker games and not to anything in the game, am I right?

Anna Weston
Gallente
Holdings Inc
Posted - 2010.07.21 11:02:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Syds Sinclair
..So a bank would benefit the owner(s) (BOD). Tell me how it would benefit the depositors. 3% safe (lol ya rite) a month interest? Nothing else? Oh ok, like I said before, banks in Eve are a novelty that benefit only:

Role players who like to pretend they are financially mature, and deposit their excess isk into a safe (lol ya rite) venture.
Role players who like to be the chief of an online "omglolbanking service."

There is no reason for a bank in Eve. Anyone scammed post EBANK deserves to lose their isk.



Nonsense. The question of whether EVE needs banks has already been asked and definitely answered by the marketplace. Trillions of ISK in deposits and loans don't lie.

Passive income is the Killer App, everyone wants it. If someone could construct a bank that looked plausibly stable and reliable then potential depositors would be throwing their money at it just as fast as they did for the previous attempts. And the continuing demand for loans is clearly indicated by the appearance of a new [BOND] thread on this forum nearly every day.

Yes of course roleplaying is an element, but then we're all roleplayers here. I've lost more money in bank failures than to any other cause in EVE (despite being a fan of stupid cap ship losses) because of the coolness factor undermining my judgement of risk. But that doesn't change the fact that the demand is clearly there; the question is whether it's possible to meet that demand given the current structure of EVE.

Anna Weston
Gallente
Holdings Inc
Posted - 2010.07.21 11:11:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
Guys, I think we can all imagine how to circumnavigate various parts of the EULA, but how about we NOT discuss it in my thread? Very Happy


To be fair, we were discussing how to circumnavigate a future hypothetical EULA, not the current one!


TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.07.21 14:10:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Why do banks need to exist in Eve? Just because we have banks in real life, does not necessarily mean we need to have them in Eve



A bank can be a platform, the bow that can fire arrows (the 3rd party initiatives).

If I wanted to start an added value service that involved people depositing money in accounts, using a bank as mediator would simplify the process tenfold.



That's the thing of it...I have a hunch people don't do more 3rd party services because of a lack of a "paypal" between EVE and their 3rd party websites.

But it's rough to build that "paypal" if there's no 3rd party services lining up for it.

Chicken or the egg?


See this old one : http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=119226
(Note that the post is from before the EVE API)

EBANK was sooooooo close to being the chicken...
And I was sooooooo close to laying that egg (as described in the old post)

Alas...

It would truly make 3rd party services/apps explode imo.
And add yet another layer to EVE.



Miriam Letisse
Posted - 2010.07.21 14:16:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
Guys, I think we can all imagine how to circumnavigate various parts of the EULA, but how about we NOT discuss it in my thread? Very Happy


Don't you mean circumvent?

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.07.21 14:31:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Miriam Letisse
Originally by: Hexxx
Guys, I think we can all imagine how to circumnavigate various parts of the EULA, but how about we NOT discuss it in my thread? Very Happy


Don't you mean circumvent?


I'd support that the EULA is big enough to call it circumnavigation.

BTW, I want to apologize for not fact checking some misinformation before putting it forward: EMMA was indeed sold for ISK and not USD, and was therefore a poor choice of example of a business making RL profits from EVE.


That said, any website running an ad banner collecting revenue, whether or not it only covers server costs, is generating revenue from CCP IP and technically violates the EULA in the broadest of interpretations.


Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.21 15:32:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Dzil

That said, any website running an ad banner collecting revenue, whether or not it only covers server costs, is generating revenue from CCP IP and technically violates the EULA in the broadest of interpretations.



How is that breaking the EULA? It's usually a service such as Google's Adsense that displays the ads. On top of that, the website only gets paid if someone clicks those ads.

I don't know about you, but I never click on ads. Too great of a chance they lead to risky sites like www.buyisksowecanhackyouraccount.youidiot!!

Gabriel Rosencrantz
Gods of Freight
Posted - 2010.07.21 21:25:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz
The CEO, directors, and staff put up $250 each. [...] All of the parties will have agreed up-front to the terms and have deposited their money.

In some ways, that sounds like you would be selling a $250 ticket to obtain a privileged position from which to scam.

I'm not sure how that would be a license to scam since the third-party mediator (not some random EVE player but the real deal) would keep the money (or donate it or whatever) if the staff scammed. That is the purpose of the mediated legal instrument.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2010.07.21 22:05:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: TornSoul
It would truly make 3rd party services/apps explode imo.
And add yet another layer to EVE.


There was plenty of discussion in EBANK forums about what could happen if successful features and functions beyond anything even seen in EVE before. The problem was pure demand, beyond the point of which EBANK could handle. Apart from the obvious failings, EBANK was set to fail eventually even if there was no theft or big uncollateralized loan defaults.

Athre and I put a lot of resistance on expansion, consistently voted against expanding beyond 1.5 Trillion. Pushed for audits and I even asked the question several times "How much ISK is really EBANK's? As in "Given everything we have, how much profit does EBANK have." It was missing several keys which Hexxx and I have identified, issues that Hexxx is not going to allow again in his new "thing" for lack of a better word. It's not a bank but it is leaving room to act like one but may never come to light.

Some of the key things is undeniable accounting consolidation. EBANK relied heavily on "Poor mans, mom & pop shop" type accounting. Until Ray, EBANK had never really done a full on audit and valuation. It was Ray that showed everyone just how bad it was. So that was really the first key.

The second key is literally "Just say NO!" attitude. Here is something people just never really mentioned or even called on it while all the trolling goes on. People ask "Why have banks?" the answer is simple, "Because people want them..." And believe me people want them. When EBANK wasn't so real time it did stick to it's guns about paying interest to the limits which where set out. Last one was 750B before it moved to a "Lets vote before it runs out again."

See what was happening was people deposit billions even hundreds of billion when we allowed interest bearing accounts filling it up very quickly. We even held at that level allow people to deposit, but holding interest account from them because it was over the limit. The "Shared and Sweep" accounts where added to allow that functionality.

The ONLY REASON EBANK allowed 2.5Trillion expansion was literally because people demanded it. People wanted their interest bearing accounts so the directors would expand with simple account measures in place. Titan BPOs was an expansion based on public demand for EBANK Interest account for example. The defaulted KIA loan was another.

IF The Directors simply said "NO" to the public to keep on tossing ISK into accounts... maybe the pot Ricdic stole from wouldn't have been so sweet. Maybe EBANK wouldn't be able to afford to 250B ISK loan that was unsecured.

I'm not blaming the public for EBANK failures, but they are defiantly the catalyst for the failure. Selene's Bank took part of the what made EBANK fail and included security measures to prevent that from happening. They where literally going to say "NO" to people demanding more interest bearing accounts, until they knew they could cover the interest. Now that says a lot about how heavily those choices to expand effected EBANK's viability, that the very NEXT Bank included security to prevent that from happen.

If anything the ideas and possibilities of a Bank are still workable in EVE, EBANK was the largest of it's kind and suffered unique circumstance that no one before had even experienced, this will be corrected in any new bank that comes along.

I'll say this though, when a new Bank does come along and it's fully successful and working it will have security measures, ideas, and implement functions that not only made EBANK what it is, but have those newly discovered issues resolved.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.21 22:12:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: SencneS

I'll say this though, when a new Bank does come along and it's fully successful and working it will have security measures, ideas, and implement functions that not only made EBANK what it is, but have those newly discovered issues resolved.


Neutral That statement was pretty much the reasoning I gave when I asked Ray in a post why he's trying to save EBank.

The groundwork is there, it was just mismanaged by uncollateralized loans and theft.

Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2010.07.21 23:22:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
There's no distortion about this. We had a hypothetical idea of tying future informational services to donators, either through ISK or $. The $ would be nice to subsidize the server fees that the host currently pays. We asked CCP through a petition chain if we could give out informational andnon-ISK/asset services/rewards to donators as a way of thanking them. We were told yes.

I am simply saying that this conflicts with what was said earlier in this thread by Zymurgist. Luckily this is a ways off for us, but I would rather see clarification now than later.
I did not include you into that, as I said, the difference would probably be that the extra info that you would be providing is separated from eve with another layer, since it would not be info that refers to the game, but to the service you are providing, which only link with eve is the isk and characters (ie: it has no reference to anything that happens in the game).

My point is that I don't see any useful info that could be offered by a bank in the same fashion as you would, unrelated to the game. And the distortion quote refers to the fact that no matter how you dress it, if you offer information of eve markets or anything directly related to eve and you charge rl money for it you would be doing something that is not allowed for any application right now, so is forbidden unless they change the rules.

PS: I'm assuming from the start that all graphs and extra info that you would be offering would be refered to the poker games and not to anything in the game, am I right?



I misinterpreted your intention with your statements then =) And yes, all information would be related to non-EVE things, like game-histories and winnings-histories.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.07.21 23:32:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 21/07/2010 23:34:13
In game banking will never work without some form of dedicated resources from the developers to govern it. At best Eve banking is good faith, nothing more.

As for having RL stakes, you do not want this. Once you start tying RL value to in game value, enter stage left RL regulation of in game play. Now you can say this is already happening with Plex and GTC. True. But technically it is nothing more than purchase of service. You're not taking isk, or ships or territory and directly equating it to currency. If such a thing were to happen and become prevalent I wouldn't be surprised that in game theft would start having RL consequences. You do not want RL stakes tied to in game play.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.07.21 23:40:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 21/07/2010 23:34:13
In game banking will never work without some form of dedicated resources from the developers to govern it. At best Eve banking is good faith, nothing more.

As for having RL stakes, you do not want this. Once you start tying RL value to in game value, enter stage left RL regulation of in game play. Now you can say this is already happening with Plex and GTC. True. But technically it is nothing more than purchase of service. You're not taking isk, or ships or territory and directly equating it to currency. If such a thing were to happen and become prevalent I wouldn't be surprised that in game theft would start having RL consequences. You do not want RL stakes tied to in game play.


why not?

its simple; dont steal!

then there are no consequences, only reason for being against RL consequences is if you plan on scamming.

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.22 00:39:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Ji Sama
cant we just make a legally binding document OOG? that holds the person economical responsible if he scams/steals the ISK.
and partial responsible in the case of bad management...

that way there would be RL consequences at least where i live, if i where to break that binding agreement!


Well, that's no different from if you could REALLY nail someone down in-game. The problem is that they can conjure up a new identity from nowhere and escape the wrath of the in-game community.

Secondly, and pretending that the above could somehow be overcome, there should be a way to point out untrustworthy individuals to other players. Give people bad reps. Perhaps Incarna... no, probably not.

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.22 02:28:00 - [82]
 

Ji Sama

I think the bit about banning people for making RL threats is still in the eula. I would think a lawsuit would definitely be an RL threat.

If I was nasty, I'd set up a deal with you, with such a contract as you propose. And as soon as I have your signed copy I'd petition you with ccp.
I think that by the time I would have to live up to my end of the agreement I would not be able to anymore, as you would not be playing eve anymore, and unable to prosecute.

Syds Sinclair
Posted - 2010.07.22 03:21:00 - [83]
 

..ITT: I wanna be a e-financial manager. Waaa.

Disclaimer: Waaa added for effect.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2010.07.22 08:09:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Leneerra
Ji Sama

I think the bit about banning people for making RL threats is still in the eula. I would think a lawsuit would definitely be an RL threat.

If I was nasty, I'd set up a deal with you, with such a contract as you propose. And as soon as I have your signed copy I'd petition you with ccp.
I think that by the time I would have to live up to my end of the agreement I would not be able to anymore, as you would not be playing eve anymore, and unable to prosecute.



I think everyone misses the point, I am not talking about holding the clients legally accountable, only the managers, how can a voluntarily contract that the managers make with the clients be a threat?

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.22 10:10:00 - [85]
 

While I personally like the idear of adding an incentive to play by the rules as promised, rather than the rules as enforced by ccp, I do not think this would be good for the game in the end.
I think all the incentives should be kept in game. Getting some assitance to keep your hobby afordable is something else, but please do not turn this game into a job (any more than it is already!).

Where ever eve is (indirectly) used to provide someone with RL income you create an incentive for someone to maximize this income at least possible cost by any availeble means. This causes EVE not to ba a game for that indevidual, but an income source. We all know to what that can lead (hacking etc) and how it curtails the pleasure we as users can gain from this game.

In addition, RL penalties as you suggest, even for breaking volluntairily accepted rules beyond the rules as enforced by ccp, limits the freedom of the player to act as he wishes within the rules as stated by ccp. Thus blocking part of the game, rather than having a player choose to refrain from something.
Aside from that, what if someone hacks an account just to make it appear that that person broke the rules to claim the RL bounty? Is this a can of worms you realy want to get involved in?




Anna Weston
Gallente
Holdings Inc
Posted - 2010.07.22 10:54:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Syds Sinclair
..ITT: I wanna be a e-financial manager. Waaa.

Disclaimer: Waaa added for effect.


ITP: I can't construct a worthwhile argument, all I have left is a routine troll built from tired old memes.

Fake edit: Waaaaaa

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.22 15:02:00 - [87]
 

(Premise: my delays in answering come from my current vacation location (Isle of Rhodes) which pose some limits on the times I can use my EEE PC).

Quote:

..So a bank would benefit the owner(s) (BOD).



WHAT A NOVEL REALIZATION WE GOT!

Every bank is made to benefit itself, its BOD, its stakeholders.

In fact the only real challenge is to find an EvE's way to prize the above so that they don't find it easier to cash out with robbery.
Customers and people willing to start initiatives under the bank's umbrella? Plenty of both, without further incentives.


Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.07.22 16:06:00 - [88]
 

I'm really surprised this has gone on so long.

Tying RL consequences to in game actions is foolishness.

It will never be supported by CCP.

Two individuals are, of course, free to make whatever kind of side deal they want outside the game, but this is just asking for trouble.

Bad idea is bad.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.22 17:07:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: SencneS
As in "Given everything we have, how much profit does EBANK have." It was missing several keys which Hexxx and I have identified, issues that Hexxx is not going to allow again in his new "thing" for lack of a better word. It's not a bank but it is leaving room to act like one but may never come to light.




This is an important thing, something I think about alot and a driver for what I'm working on now. We have to develop better audit/accounting tools for EVE that help businesses. Until we lower the barrier to perform this kind of thing, it just won't happen. This is a game afterall.

As for my own efforts....after one year of design and a year of coding, recoding, redesign, and more recoding I'm still quite a ways away from releasing anything to the public.

It's a tough nut to crack.

Syds Sinclair
Posted - 2010.07.22 21:07:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Syds Sinclair on 22/07/2010 21:09:29
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Quote:

..So a bank would benefit the owner(s) (BOD).



WHAT A NOVEL REALIZATION WE GOT!






..Wow, my post got misread,

WHAT A UNIQUE EXPERIENCE THAT IS!

Imagine that, someone taking one line out of my post and then making a sarcastic reply. My point was, a bank benefits the BOD greatly by providing isk. The benefit to the depositors is what, 3% a month? Great. Oh and that little thing about no collateral. But I guess no member of any bank's BOD would ever scam billions of isk.

Oh also, I forgot, the BOD and depositors get to role play. It's so fun having a real life grown up bank account in a video game!


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