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Jason filigree
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:10:00 - [1]
 

Starting PVP.

I am interested in trying PVP some time soon. I only have caldari skills, and am heavily invested in missiles over any other weapon system, and shield tanking over armor tanking.

I understand that as I learn I will loose ships. But I need some idea of what ship and fit I should learn in. I was thinking of buying or building 10 or so and having them sitting at my clone station ready to go so I donít have delays when I get destroyed.

What type of ship would be recommended for learning in, and what fittings should it have. From my random readings I know there are different roles and tactics (tackler?) but I donít really understand what they are or what defines them.

Finally how much ISC will I need to spend on a starting ship. This will be the first time I have got in a ship expecting to loose it; I want to have enough capital behind me that it wonít hurt.

Edward

Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.07.18 12:02:00 - [2]
 

Tackling is always an option but it is also quite easy to get too much of (as I see it). If you are looking to PVP with other players, the fastest ship to go for is the drake. It is probably the only really effective missile boat out there atm.

If you are looking to go at it alone - daunting, but manly and very rewarding when it works - a caracal with assault missiles, a scrambler and a web or two can make a real mess out of frigates. What you'll want to do is go into low sec where there are some frigates on scanner - the areas around Amamake or Old Man Star would be good - and pretend to be going through the belts to kill NPCs. Looking for a cheap kill, sooner or later a frigate should engage you all on its own initiative, at which point you merely activate your mods on him and wait for him to pop. If anything else arrives at the belt - cruiser, battlecruiser, Heavy assault ship ect ect - run like the wind. Eventually you will want to look at flying drakes or crosstraining to other ships (minmatar boats also use shield tanking, for instance).

siC0 b0b
Posted - 2010.07.18 12:11:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: siC0 b0b on 18/07/2010 12:19:44
[Merlin, chptackmer]
Damage Control I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Medium Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Limited Light Ion Blaster I, Antimatter Charge S
Limited Light Ion Blaster I, Antimatter Charge S
OE-5200 Rocket Launcher, Gremlin Rocket
OE-5200 Rocket Launcher, Gremlin Rocket

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Merlin is a really good, very straight up, easy to fly frigate. This is a cheap setup, you should not lose more than 400k after insurence, if you do you can downgrade some modules, but keep the X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator.

You should have some gunnery skills from what i understand from your post, you should definetly have Small Hybrid Turret trained by default, so the ship should not be hard to get into.

Tacklers are just ships fit with modules to keep an enemy target in place. You only have to worry about this sort of terminology if you're in a fleet, if you're asked to fill a tackler role, a Merlin will be great for it.

EDIT, What Taudia said isn't newbie friendly at all, so don't bother with understanding it. Stick with a frigate and a good piracy guide for now (even if you don't want to be a pirate, papers like these will teach you how to survive in any hostile space). Only cross train etc. when you feel your ships aren't suitable, don't do it because other people fly FOTM only.

Julian Darklight
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:49:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Julian Darklight on 18/07/2010 16:51:46
i agree with usin a merlin. but frankly, u have to understand the merlins issues to use her properly. its a slow frig. thats just a fact. so i gets hit easier by big guns an small ones. its limited on its weapons cause it gets NO WEAPONS DAMAGE BONUS. but now that u undderstand this u can use it the way its meant to be used. its tank is its best resource. an its powergrid an capacitor. sinceit gets no weapons bonus an u need ur cap for an active tank, i would suggest usin small ACs. they use the same support skill as the hybrids obviously an if u don have em trained it one take bout a week to get them to lvl 4 an bout 2.5 weeks to lvl 5. easy trainin. they are cappless an do good DPS. same as ur missles. leavin all ur cap for tank. fit a cap booster an a shield booster plus rigs to make both run more efficiently. thats for 2 slots. fit an anti-EM rif for the 3rd slot. us an MWD if u can sqeeze it in but if u cant an AB will do fine if u use ur warp to drop in close to enmies in the belts. do that by bookmarkin a roid near them. warp out tot eh closest object then warp back in rite on top of em. catches a lot of folks off guard. always check ur targets age. never fight someone with over 1.5 years old if u can help it. prefferably folks under a year if ur just startin on ur solo carrier. that way theya re more in ur sp zone. an beware of easy targets. usually a trap. so if u do find an barge or some thin attack but keep hittin ur directional scan to see if anyone is comein. watch local an if u start on someone an locla spikes run like heck! thats teh best advice i can give in one post. slmost all my PVP carrier is solo so i know wat im talkin about. have fun :)

P.S. almost always use scrams on caldari ships so u can kill the MWD of other PVP frigs an larger ships. since u don ahve room for a web its teh best device for killin speed. use fac ammo for ur launchers an guns. even if u get t2 modules

IceDane
Posted - 2010.07.18 18:35:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Julian Darklight
Edited by: Julian Darklight on 18/07/2010 16:51:46
i agree with usin a merlin. but frankly, u have to understand the merlins issues to use her properly. its a slow frig. thats just a fact. so i gets hit easier by big guns an small ones. its limited on its weapons cause it gets NO WEAPONS DAMAGE BONUS. but now that u undderstand this u can use it the way its meant to be used. its tank is its best resource. an its powergrid an capacitor. sinceit gets no weapons bonus an u need ur cap for an active tank, i would suggest usin small ACs. they use the same support skill as the hybrids obviously an if u don have em trained it one take bout a week to get them to lvl 4 an bout 2.5 weeks to lvl 5. easy trainin. they are cappless an do good DPS. same as ur missles. leavin all ur cap for tank. fit a cap booster an a shield booster plus rigs to make both run more efficiently. thats for 2 slots. fit an anti-EM rif for the 3rd slot. us an MWD if u can sqeeze it in but if u cant an AB will do fine if u use ur warp to drop in close to enmies in the belts. do that by bookmarkin a roid near them. warp out tot eh closest object then warp back in rite on top of em. catches a lot of folks off guard. always check ur targets age. never fight someone with over 1.5 years old if u can help it. prefferably folks under a year if ur just startin on ur solo carrier. that way theya re more in ur sp zone. an beware of easy targets. usually a trap. so if u do find an barge or some thin attack but keep hittin ur directional scan to see if anyone is comein. watch local an if u start on someone an locla spikes run like heck! thats teh best advice i can give in one post. slmost all my PVP carrier is solo so i know wat im talkin about. have fun :)

P.S. almost always use scrams on caldari ships so u can kill the MWD of other PVP frigs an larger ships. since u don ahve room for a web its teh best device for killin speed. use fac ammo for ur launchers an guns. even if u get t2 modules


Enter.

Hit it.

Maxarina
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:55:00 - [6]
 

im in just about the same position you are in. fairly new character, most of my SP is in (aside from learning lol) missiles and shield. the merlin is a good way to go to learn the ropes and avoid heavy losses for the ships that you will loose a lot before u get comfortable.

I agree with the above guys: the directional scanner is your best friend, second only to local. its hard to say which is better. clutter your screen up and have a big overview so u can see the ship type, name, pilot, 3 different velocity types, distance, etcetcetc.

and one thing I do with asteroid belts is make a bookmark like 150 or 200 km outside a belt, then align to the center and wait. if someone scans you down, they'll think ur in the belt, warp in, get confused and u warp in on top of them (or whatever ur prefered range) for the kill. if they r sneaky they warp within 20 or 50 or something, then u pick an asteroid near where they are and get to work.

and always have a celeatial in your selected item window either aligned to it if you're not orbiting, or handy for if someone else comes in and u gotta get out. play on your homefield. know where celestials are, whats going to be the least amount of time to align to, have some bookmarks saved like 1/2 way between planets etcetcetc. alot of this I bet u could see from the pvp guides.

last thing (i know this is long but im at work and bored hehe) get in a corp that does pvp. maybe not a full on git-er-done pvp 24/7 corp lol, bot not just a mining corp either. get a group that goes out regularly and can take you out with. there's strength in numbers. in my humble opinion it will be easier to learn in a group, nothing fancy, just 4 or 5 frigs, maybe a cruiser or assault waiting 1 jump away.

FullNelson Mandella
Posted - 2010.07.20 06:19:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jason filigree
Starting PVP.

I am interested in trying PVP some time soon. I only have caldari skills, and am heavily invested in missiles over any other weapon system, and shield tanking over armor tanking.



Skip over the ship losing part.. It's expensive. Find a mentor, follow them around. You'll be a lot more successful in terms of ratio, and probably pick up tips a lot faster.

And don't worry, you'll still lose a few ships.

LT

Barrak
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.07.20 09:27:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Barrak on 20/07/2010 09:35:20
Edited by: Barrak on 20/07/2010 09:30:24
Edited by: Barrak on 20/07/2010 09:28:28
I have just made the same jump you are about too!

I was a mission 4 missile spewing Caldari.

I just joined the BLues of RvB (HIGHLY RECOMEND THEM)

The two ships I use are the Caracal, simply because it is best suited to my skills (nigh on perfect missiles skills across the board) and the Merlin.

I am now at level 4 for my gunnery support skills, which really doesn't take to long, but the level 5's are all just over a week each with (I think) tracking being 19 days!.

My intention is to cross train each frigate type AND the relvant gunnery skills and then to move up to cruisers etc etc.......

Having the missiles I think works in my favour at this stage, though it did not seem this way to start with, as there are multiple chances to use them across the board and it's not something I have seen many gunnery pilots cross train!

In relation to fit out costs..... the Merlin came in at around 3m isk and the caracal was 'relatively' more expensive as I had more T2 on it - 13m isk.

I know RvB have just started their own ship replacement program (at least the blues have) for recruits that have been there for over a week.

The only other choice you will have as a ship type is the Kestrel, but they are paper thin and 'perhaps' not a PvP starter ship, at least not in solo.

What I am finding is that so long as you are not in a 'primary ship' you will generaly live a decent time during a fight and I am doing okay in my Caracal as it gives me the range to make decisions too.

The Caracal can reign down some pretty heavy fire so if you are capable in it, do not discount it!

One thing you failed to mention is what your plans are. Do you plan on continuing with missiles or do you want to try gunnery? are you thinking of ewar?

Gunnery - Many many opportunities with nice supplemental damage if you have missile skills.
ewar - Rook, Falcon etc etc.... some nice stuff their too.

I opted for training gunnery as I like the idea of fast frigates and fast firing!

On another note, you may want to sign up with Agony Empire (my old corp) for one of their training sessions, which they run on a regular basis.

Barrak


ps..... If you want to fly some gunnery frigates and want to take on other frigate, you are really really going to need some tracking skill!

I tried without it and got my butt handed to me several times and I barely scratched anyone...... power is 'not' always best!

pps.... You could probably fit out a Merlin WITHOUT rigs for around 1-1.5mill isk.
If you are in a gang, then to be honest you do not need masses of firepower, just enough to make a small difference and survice long enough to learn something!


ppps. RvB have a ship replacement program! This is their recruitment thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283881&page=9

I would highly suggest you join, even if its only to get a feel for it and hten you can move on!

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.07.20 11:50:00 - [9]
 

FFS Barrak rig those ships.

Core defense field extenders are cheap and 3 of them with an MSE give one hell of a tank to a Merlin.
3 extender rigs coupled with an MSEII and a Invulnerabilty II is a 10k EHP tank with a 46dp/s passive regen. Without the extenders it's only about 7k EHP.

Yadomsa
Posted - 2010.07.22 22:15:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Taudia

If you are looking to go at it alone - daunting, but manly and very rewarding when it works - a caracal with assault missiles, a scrambler and a web or two can make a real mess out of frigates.


not to hijak the thread, but what are your ideas on assault vs. heavy assault missles. What if you want to do ratting while waiting for frigs?

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2010.07.23 04:40:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Vrabac on 23/07/2010 04:49:26
Originally by: Jason filigree
Starting PVP.

I am interested in trying PVP some time soon. I only have caldari skills, and am heavily invested in missiles over any other weapon system, and shield tanking over armor tanking.

I understand that as I learn I will loose ships. But I need some idea of what ship and fit I should learn in. I was thinking of buying or building 10 or so and having them sitting at my clone station ready to go so I donít have delays when I get destroyed.

What type of ship would be recommended for learning in, and what fittings should it have. From my random readings I know there are different roles and tactics (tackler?) but I donít really understand what they are or what defines them.

Finally how much ISC will I need to spend on a starting ship. This will be the first time I have got in a ship expecting to loose it; I want to have enough capital behind me that it wonít hurt.

Edward



You shouldn't be asking that many question and shouldn't have such a timid approach.

Fit a ship you're comfortable with losing. In your case start with something small like a frigate or t1 cruiser.

Go out of high sec.

Die.

Repeat until you start figuring stuff out.

As for pod, as long as you're not in 0.0, just spam the warp button with some warpable celestial object selected as your ship is about to blow up. It should warp the pod out instantly before anyone can possibly lock it, meaning there's no real reason to be afraid for your implants. That's as long as you're not in 0.0. And as long as you're actually doing it right. Alternatively have a cheap clone for pvp if you're still afraid of getting podded.

Forgot to add. If you seek advice and want to ask questions, do it on the spot, asking the people that you just died to. If you are nice and friendly, you're likely to provoke similar response and you'll find many pvpers rather helpful. Also, it will enable you to gauge their own ability in some way, giving you a better idea if they are worth asking anything or no. Example, if you die to a ship you're suppose to overpower on paper, you likely died to a good or at least better pilot. Talk to him. If you jumped through some gate and died to a gatecamp on the other side, might as well just move on silently. Asking such broad questions on the forum will just attract armchair generals and wannabe sun tzus, and taking their advice for granted is a lottery, especially seen as you don't really know anything about pvp yet yourself.

Dork Blade
Posted - 2010.07.25 08:06:00 - [12]
 

If you want to pvp, I would suggest finding someone in local who you think is ugly or has a lame name. At this point you can either convo them or just insult them in local. Use lots of profanity, and maybe threaten them with some sort of wardecs or other in-game forms of violence. Demanding isk may be a + too. Note that if you actually attempt this the other player will win half the time, so repeat attempts are much less advisable than a single attempt, which is not advisable.

BrodyDalle
Posted - 2010.07.25 14:25:00 - [13]
 

Learning to pvp these days is very easy all you need to do it join a big alliance where 85% of the members 4got how to pvp and all they know is blob warfare, i dont want to mention any names but i cant help myself Very Happy {Razor Goons/Test GC IT........} the list just goes on and on, then get in a fast ship like a interceptor, get in your blob fleet and just killmail *****, next think you know your good at pvp becuse your killboard says you are. Laughing

Motseth
Posted - 2010.07.25 14:41:00 - [14]
 

The best thing u can do in my opinion is to join RvB, check it out on the forums, pretty sure u can find a lot of information

RvB is a cheap way to get initiated into PvP, if u are a active player in a good week u will be involved in a lot of fights, this will improve your basic understanding of the pvp mechanics, ships capabilities and a lot more. Faction Warfare is also a good way to learn pvp and Im pretty sure there are more, but so far imho RvB is by far the best.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2010.07.25 15:18:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 25/07/2010 15:26:33
Originally by: Jason filigree
Starting PVP.

I am interested in trying PVP some time soon. I only have caldari skills, and am heavily invested in missiles over any other weapon system, and shield tanking over armor tanking.

I understand that as I learn I will loose ships. But I need some idea of what ship and fit I should learn in. I was thinking of buying or building 10 or so and having them sitting at my clone station ready to go so I donít have delays when I get destroyed.

What type of ship would be recommended for learning in, and what fittings should it have. From my random readings I know there are different roles and tactics (tackler?) but I donít really understand what they are or what defines them.

Finally how much ISC will I need to spend on a starting ship. This will be the first time I have got in a ship expecting to loose it; I want to have enough capital behind me that it wonít hurt.

Edward


few things here.
1) your caldari
2) you want to fly missile boats
3) lot of suggestions to fly basically tackle
4) You are new to pvp

My reply:
1) Dont fly tackle
2) missile boats make terrible tackle
3) your new so you dont want to be close.
4) you need go out and get in a corp that does pvp. You need to learn general pvp in eve before you learn solo pvp
5) missile boats solo take a lot of skill both personal and character wise to use effectively. not starter ships for solo pvp.

What you want to start out as is using your races strengths. which is ranged support.


[Caracal, Long range support]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

at all level 5s:
EHP:11.8k 68/56/55/63 resist
DPS:294 w/ t2 kin fury, 235 with other furies.
speed: 537m/s
range:93km targeting, 130ish for missiles.
scan res:393mm ( non-MWD cruiser lock in 3-4 seconds)
cap: stable 59% everything running.
price:20m-35mil, ~ 30 mil or so as setup

--------------------------------------------
This the most forgiving ship and best bang for the buck for a noob to pvp that flys missile boats.

[Drake, Fleet PVP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
Invulnerability Field II
'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement
Heat Dissipation Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5
----------------------------
All level 5s:

EHP:102.9k, 76/83/72/77 resist
DPS: 543 w/ drones and kin furies,
speed: 408m/s
range:75km targeting, 75ish for missiles.
scan res:243mm ( non-MWD cruiser lock in 5-6 seconds)
cap: stable 67% everything running.
price:45m-70mil, ~65 mil or so as setup
Mods: replace a shield extender with a sensor booster( sebo)w/ targeting script for faster locks.

These are the types of ships you should be starting out in and definately as support dps in a gang.




Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2010.07.25 15:25:00 - [16]
 

Also t1 frigs are cheap to fly but you will lose stockpiles of them. Going into pvp thinking that you are going to lose ships all the time and these are cheap ships so its no big deal is not how you learn to pvp.

thats what sets pvpers apart from those who just go around suiciding people. Fly what you can afford to lose, dont plan on losing anything. leave that mentality in the dock when you are deciding what to take out. WHen you are out their act like that is your only ship. You will learn faster and you will be a better pvper.

Good PvPers are not only good at making other ships go pop but good and preventing theirs from going pop in the process. If you fly your ship back to the dock, regardless of if you killed anything, consider it a good roam.

Morel Nova
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.25 23:30:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Morel Nova on 25/07/2010 23:31:41
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Also t1 frigs are cheap to fly but you will lose stockpiles of them. Going into pvp thinking that you are going to lose ships all the time and these are cheap ships so its no big deal is not how you learn to pvp.

thats what sets pvpers apart from those who just go around suiciding people. Fly what you can afford to lose, dont plan on losing anything. leave that mentality in the dock when you are deciding what to take out. WHen you are out their act like that is your only ship. You will learn faster and you will be a better pvper.

Good PvPers are not only good at making other ships go pop but good and preventing theirs from going pop in the process. If you fly your ship back to the dock, regardless of if you killed anything, consider it a good roam.


this is literary terrible advice. when you start out you need to try and engage pretty much everything to learn, by chickening out you learn nothing. a good roam is killing a lot of stuff worth more than you, and getting home is just a bonus. by not taking risky fights you end up coming home with no kills just because you were scared of loosing. experience will teach you when you can and cant fight, but at the start you are better off engaging because losing will teach you more than winning.

I do frig combat courses for beginners for 60m an hour if you're interested in getting a head start with solo stuff. but nothing beats fighting experience (and of course losing ships) you can drop me a mail ingame if interested.

Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.07.26 13:25:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Taudia on 26/07/2010 13:47:08
Originally by: Yadomsa
Originally by: Taudia

If you are looking to go at it alone - daunting, but manly and very rewarding when it works - a caracal with assault missiles, a scrambler and a web or two can make a real mess out of frigates.


not to hijak the thread, but what are your ideas on assault vs. heavy assault missles. What if you want to do ratting while waiting for frigs?


Heavy assault missiles are a good source of dps, but I doubt the caracal has the grid for them and they are really not good at taking on frigates. Assault launchers use light missiles and thus deal almost all of their damage to a tackled frigate where HAMs would not, and take less fitting as well. I would not think you could make a caracal that can both deal with frigate effectively and rat in low sec effectively at the same time, though you could probably take on smaller rats easily.

Edit: Morel's advice is pretty solid, although I don't think a 60 mil/h course is the best way for a newbie to spend ISK learning to pvp. Then again, I have no doubt Morel knows frigate pvp, so if you have the ISK to spend maybe it is worth it. Most importantly, get out there and fight stuff. It's the only way to learn.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.07.26 14:28:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn

WHen you are out their act like that is your only ship. You will learn faster and you will be a better pvper.



I'm going to echo Morel here.

This is horrible advice.

Ships are tools to accomplish a job. That job is causing much harm to your enemy as possible they are to be used abused and husbanded and destroyed in every way possible that will accomplish this goal.

I consider a ship to be gone the moment I click launch. If it comes home it's a bonus.

If you are too concerned with whether or not you are going to lose your ship, You will be overly cautious. You will hesitate when you should act you will run when you should fight.

Embrace death to live.


Nursultan
Pyrotechnics Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.26 14:36:00 - [20]
 

What Morel said. Go out on your own in a T1 frig and hunt lowsec ratters/pirates/FW people. Challenge people to duels, watch PVP videos, read the guides. Analyse every fight and think what you could have done differently.

Morel Nova
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.26 14:47:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Morel Nova on 26/07/2010 14:47:49
Originally by: Taudia
Edited by: Taudia on 26/07/2010 13:47:08
Originally by: Yadomsa
Originally by: Taudia

If you are looking to go at it alone - daunting, but manly and very rewarding when it works - a caracal with assault missiles, a scrambler and a web or two can make a real mess out of frigates.


not to hijak the thread, but what are your ideas on assault vs. heavy assault missles. What if you want to do ratting while waiting for frigs?


Heavy assault missiles are a good source of dps, but I doubt the caracal has the grid for them and they are really not good at taking on frigates. Assault launchers use light missiles and thus deal almost all of their damage to a tackled frigate where HAMs would not, and take less fitting as well. I would not think you could make a caracal that can both deal with frigate effectively and rat in low sec effectively at the same time, though you could probably take on smaller rats easily.

Edit: Morel's advice is pretty solid, although I don't think a 60 mil/h course is the best way for a newbie to spend ISK learning to pvp. Then again, I have no doubt Morel knows frigate pvp, so if you have the ISK to spend maybe it is worth it. Most importantly, get out there and fight stuff. It's the only way to learn.


most people who do the course are bored bears or people starting up alts to learn pvp so they already have some isk. It wouldnt be cost effective for me to do it for less considering alternatives like plexing etc and that I tend to lose some ships doing it. Not really interested in having multiple people at once either as its more efficient for the student when I can focus 100% on his flying (although I guess people could spar while i check how they do it, but it wont be nearly as good. maybe I'll try it in the future at some point). I do it mainly to get some isk and because most training programs out there seems to be 80 noobs in frigate swarm in 0.0 learning nothing about solo piloting.

btw you can do HAM caracal, but it wont have grid for tank at all except ewar tank like TD and will be more of a gang dps boat.

EDIT: btw a good tip is to fraps when you fight so you can watch alter and pick out your mistakes. they become very apparent when there is no adrenaline involved.

Nursultan
Pyrotechnics Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.26 15:12:00 - [22]
 

As someone who got a few "lessons" from Morel for free, I can say I approve of this service.

Dork Blade
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:00:00 - [23]
 

I'm still pretty new to eve, although I wonder if grouping up for fleet pvp is the best way to start? I'm not saying fleet pvp isn't more effective, however I think that it may possibly be more advanced than solo or 1v1 pvp in a lot of ways, so challenging people to duels in hi-sec might be a better, safer way to get started as well as learn how to personally do pvp good, at which point you can then start to work with others for coordinated pvp, which is like single pvp but with the added complecations of having more people present at the same time and bringing a wider diversity of possible specializations and dual loadouts, which can probably be acheieved through duels in hi-sec most easily and with the fewest repercussions? Then, once you have some buddies you're good at dueling with against other small groups in hi-sec, you might try claiming areas via war, or alternatively bringing your little war party to a bigger alliance as a group of fighters, and you might have better luck getting recruited with a bunch of experienced pvpers with a lot of pre-existing kills? Plus you can also loot the losers in consentual pvp in hi-sec, I think you just need to jettison a can with a piece of trit in it, then you both can-rob each other to start? Or is there an easier way to pvp without concord in hi-sec? I should note you will also be more successful if you challenge people that are near your skillpoints or higher than your skillpoints, since nubs will refuse to duel you typically, or drop poor loot if they do not. You could even organize an informal pvp tournament in hi-sec with buy-ins and prizes!

Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:42:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dork Blade
::bunch of stuff about duels::


If you want to go for duels, join RvB - it is my understanding that duels is pretty much what they do. However, as I see it duels do not include the hardest parts of pvp, which is how to find a fight that is winnable. There are tonnes of factors that are present in non-consensual pvp that are not present in duels, and I really wonder how much one could learn that would be useful in other forms of pvp from duels.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.07.27 02:45:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Taudia
Originally by: Dork Blade
::bunch of stuff about duels::


If you want to go for duels, join RvB - it is my understanding that duels is pretty much what they do. However, as I see it duels do not include the hardest parts of pvp, which is how to find a fight that is winnable. There are tonnes of factors that are present in non-consensual pvp that are not present in duels, and I really wonder how much one could learn that would be useful in other forms of pvp from duels.


That's kind of silly way to think about it. You learn a lot form balanced engagements. You learn the performance envelope of your ship you learn how much of a beating it can take you learn the performance envelopes of other ships you see how people fit them and how they perform under those fits.

Take last night for some reason Sundays have been exceptionally slow so I decided I'll break the Navy Domi out of the mothballs and try a mission to see if it was as boring as I remembered (it was by the way). Afterwards on my way back to tourier I dropped by a isolated low sec I know to tool around for a few minutes. I found a couple rats and decided wth I'll screw around with the BS rat that was up. Messed around with it for a few minutes then another ship popped up on the overview. Ishkur, Welp quick calculation 5 light drones v rifter not favorable. Instant rabbit. No consideration nor panic just knew rapidly that this was a good fight for that particular rifter fit.

I know this because I've flown this particular rifter in more than a couple 1v1s and I'm also familiar with what light drones do to it from fleet action.

Now what could I have learned the hard way that I didn't know already? I could have engaged maybe got lucky that the guy was total fail sauce but more likely an Ishkur is a little much for a solo rifter. Had it been another T1 frig I'd have gone for it. Had it been a anything but a drone boat I might have considered engaging just to see. But all it would have taken would have been 5 Warrior II's to have given me a lossmail.

Now I fully admit that there is a whole hell of a lot one won't learn in RVB but to say you won't learn anything from "duels" is silly I've learned something from every 1v1 I've been involved in I've also learned from the arranged fleet fights and the less arranged activities.

If nothing else at some point you have to fight something and it's best when you do so if your hands aren't shaking, which fighting as much as we do will cure.



Morel Nova
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.27 09:42:00 - [26]
 

1v1s dont have to be balanced and usually arent unless concensual. knowing how to fight things like harbingers in your rifter is useful too (also most 1v1s are 1v20s after a few minutes).

being a good solo pilot makes you a better fleet member, but not necessarily the other way around at all. When pilots in a fleet stop thinking for themselves they can become easy to pick off for a smaller force.

Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.07.28 06:47:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
:Bunch of stuff about how duels teach what match-ups are winnable:



Certainly, if the fits used are non-duel specific and the set up of the duel is not too constructed, it could teach almost all of the engagement itself. However usually it is my understanding that duels are usually too constructed to be able to convey all situations one could get into. Lets say you have a duel between a vagabond and a brutix. At what range do they start? within 10km? then the brutix should win. At 20km? vagabond should win. In non-consensual pvp the interested part of this fight has already happened before they lock each other - it happens when either of the pilots succeed in getting the fight to happen at favorable terms.

Now duels could be a better way to learn about engagements if the pilot is not great at finding fights himself and thus consistently winds up in trivial engagements, under the assumption that the duels are non-trivial. My argument is just that often the actual fighting is just a formality and the real work is in getting the fight to happen at all.


 

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