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blankseplocked [Proposal] CCP should get ISO-9001 compliant
 
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Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Imperial Strippers
Posted - 2010.07.17 13:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 17/07/2010 14:09:59
There's not much here to explain my argument, because it's self explanatory that this would improve EVE in the long run, just spend 30 seconds googling it if you don't know what this standard is about. Here, I'll do it for you. Hell, even if it doesn't improve EVE, it will probably improve CCPs profits, they should be all over it.

If CCP is already certified: Why do I not see that certificate proudly stated on the website?

Oh, and while we're at it, how about getting ISO-20000 certification (this would especially improve the GM department and could help with the cluster management, but then again, it's quite possible the size of CCP does not [yet] justify this.), and ISO-27001 certification for improved security?

Yeah. That'd be cool.

Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Imperial Strippers

Posted - 2010.07.17 14:06:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 17/07/2010 14:12:17
Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 17/07/2010 14:06:29
Supporting my own proposal.

Also, here are some more standards relevant to what CCP is doing:

ISO-15504
ISO-12207
CMMI

Or hey, how about: Hire a process management guru, if you don't have one already. People complain about CCP focusing on "shinies" all the time and getting distracted from issues at hand. So how about doing something about this by bringing some order into chaos?

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:11:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 17/07/2010 14:11:27
How about you start your own MMO development company and do it better than CCP with your ****ty certificates?

Kiko Tojima
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:19:00 - [4]
 

Having had to endure the 9001:2008 audit just two weeks ago: GTFO !
There's nothing more senseless in a company below 100,000 employees than this ****ing shifting of paper mounts! It's GM's brainchild and one should have let them go bust over it.

Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Imperial Strippers
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:25:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 17/07/2010 14:11:27
How about you start your own MMO development company and do it better than CCP with your ****ty certificates?
No thanks, busy working myself to death at a service desk that struggles to be compliant. :(

How about you go and learn about the importance of process management to ensure cost savings, delivery on time and customer satisfaction, and start your own consulting firm? Rolling Eyes

Also, CCP already uses Agile since Red Moon Rising, and Scrum since Apocrypha, so this shows they are on the right track. Smile

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2010.07.17 17:31:00 - [6]
 

This is truly the dumbest idea I have ever seen... Including all my own.

leonard nimoy1
Posted - 2010.07.17 18:18:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
This is truly the dumbest idea I have ever seen... Including all my own.


Is it dumb because you don't understand what it is?

I personaly think a company with such a client base should have this kind of certification and process in place.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.17 18:51:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 17/07/2010 18:53:43
Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 17/07/2010 14:11:27
How about you start your own MMO development company and do it better than CCP with your ****ty certificates?

So what you are saying is this forum should be removed since CCP is the allmighty and should not be questioned?


That said, it is ****ty idea.

ISO9001 doesnt suddenly make your decission making process good, it only makes it cost alot of paper.

Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Imperial Strippers
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:34:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 17/07/2010 20:36:13
Originally by: leonard nimoy1
I personaly think a company with such a client base should have this kind of certification and process in place.
Forgot your support. :(

Originally by: Furb Killer
ISO9001 doesnt suddenly make your decission making process good, it only makes it cost alot of paper.
I agree, it does not make it good or bad, nor does it make the decisions better, but at least it makes the process leading to decisions consistent, which as we all can see, is very much not the case with CCP.

Saelie
Posted - 2010.07.17 22:34:00 - [10]
 

Complete waste of time and resources they could be using to, you know, do game stuff.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:11:00 - [11]
 

Why bother when anyone with atleast 2 brain cells can do the same thing without all the fandangled paperwork?

Jiix Zix
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:02:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Aeron Sophus
Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 17/07/2010 14:09:59
There's not much here to explain my argument, because it's self explanatory that this would improve EVE in the long run, just spend 30 seconds googling it if you don't know what this standard is about. Here, I'll do it for you. Hell, even if it doesn't improve EVE, it will probably improve CCPs profits, they should be all over it.

[*snip*]




Great idea, but you must also understand that the ISO-standards are not a magic portal to awesomeness, here is why:

The ISO-standard stickers are just there because everyone has that pile of maps getting dust in their cabinets, nothing more to see there. Been in a quite few corporations which have so oh-ever-wonderful-fixes-everything ISO-standards and gotta say, while they work in some levels they usually add pain and misery to some more creative (in this case probably would be game design / implementation) areas of work.

And even those would be there it doesn't help if people do not commit to follow blindly those 'standards' which ofcourse are made by a person who wanted some profit for oneself.

Also been in one project lead/management and logistics standardization process a long long time ago, which gotta say was pretty neat and would have worked if the marketing / sales department would have adopted it first, pretty much went down hill when the tech side adopted it and then the sales started calling us with pretty imaginative words for not accepting some random paper as 'a project' Twisted Evil

And oh lord, stay the heck away from ITIL if you want working IT-environment that actually works. ITIL prolly works when you got IT-network around 20 countries with 20 000+ workers who do have some clue what to do, but in the end the management fails.

Instead of ITIL hire a few bored IT-artists (db/network/system) and appreciate their works of art, not by money (well, dependant of the person), but imagine that if everything *WORKS* smoothly some extra free time and be open for ideas instead of asking your friends right-out-of-school-mba freshman how the awesomeness in the IT work and then forcing people who actually knows the stuff to be a mindless slave and then blame on them for the managements bad choices Laughing

And what comes to 27001, well, it describes nicely what could be done, however, you need to do compromises (as people are not robots - they need food, drink and cigarettes - some are bold enough to demand love and affection) in the way or otherwise you'd be employing 1 actual worker and rest of the people in the company would be 'security guards' and then only thing you hear here is 'every step you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you' if going by the standard as you cannot trust anyone, probably should lock the corporation's board of management in the cellar too as they might have too much power at their disposal.

What comes to network security, there are some much flexible ways to implement the 'best practices' in it-security by allocating services across your network while applying nice and thight security policies in the access which does not hinder the actual work, where some have fallen into the darkest pit where anything you'd need to do actual work is either denied, classified or both which is.. in my opinion pretty dumb.

More bureaucracy you bring into work, well, take a good look at goverment offices, sounds neato, huh?

Twisted Evil



Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Imperial Strippers
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:05:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 18/07/2010 16:12:09
Originally by: Jiix Zix
Great idea, but you must also understand that the ISO-standards are not a magic portal to awesomeness, here is why:

Trust me, I do know that. I work in a Fortune 500 company with 250k+ employees, I can see the standards failing (and also failing to fix what many people would expect them to) every single day... Smile
Originally by: Jiix Zix
Also been in one project lead/management and logistics standardization process a long long time ago, which gotta say was pretty neat and would have worked if the marketing / sales department would have adopted it first, pretty much went down hill when the tech side adopted it and then the sales started calling us with pretty imaginative words for not accepting some random paper as 'a project' Twisted Evil
Yes, that is what happens if you hire a bunch of dumbos... ISO standards don't guarantee any form of quality in the output, as we probably both know. Very Happy

Originally by: Jiix Zix
And oh lord, stay the heck away from ITIL if you want working IT-environment that actually works. ITIL prolly works when you got IT-network around 20 countries with 20 000+ workers who do have some clue what to do, but in the end the management fails.
In my experience, ITIL only starts to fail (and it fails HARD if this happens) when people are employed that have no formal ITIL training (and aren't given any either, due to cost 'savings'), but are expected to work within the standard. This mostly applies to Help/Service Desk and 1st/2nd line employees.

Originally by: Jiix Zix
Instead of ITIL hire a few bored IT-artists (db/network/system) and appreciate their works of art, not by money (well, dependant of the person), but imagine that if everything *WORKS* smoothly some extra free time and be open for ideas instead of asking your friends right-out-of-school-mba freshman how the awesomeness in the IT work and then forcing people who actually knows the stuff to be a mindless slave and then blame on them for the managements bad choices Laughing
I agree, right-out-of-school-MBA freshmen are the worst, but luckily that doesn't seem to be the case with CCP, otherwise we'd see a lot more paid-for services already. Also, considering the fact that EVE runs one of the biggest clusters on this planet, if the IT experts massively disagree, their leverage is too high for them to be forced to do anything. They can't be replaced, because if you try, the cluster goes down before you have a suitable replacement. Now as a counter example: If CCP would be using something even CLOSE to ITIL, they'd probably have tracked down a few more causes for the lag by now (I think anyone who works in IT knows that there can't be a single cause for the lag by now.), by iterating over recent RFCs and Monitoring-Incident trends. (Of course, CCP most definitely already has a solid monitoring infrastructure by now, otherwise the size of their cluster would be impossible to maintane.)

Originally by: Jiix Zix
And what comes to 27001, well, it describes nicely what could be done, however, you need to do compromises (as people are not robots - they need food, drink and cigarettes - some are bold enough to demand love and affection) in the way or otherwise you'd be employing 1 actual worker and rest of the people in the company would be 'security guards' and then only thing you hear here is 'every step you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you' if going by the standard as you cannot trust anyone, probably should lock the corporation's board of management in the cellar too as they might have too much power at their disposal.
Well, I can't disagree there, but it gives you a good guideline, at least. Smile

(cont.)

Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Imperial Strippers
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:20:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Aeron Sophus on 18/07/2010 16:20:25
Originally by: Jiix Zix
What comes to network security, there are some much flexible ways to implement the 'best practices' in it-security by allocating services across your network while applying nice and thight security policies in the access which does not hinder the actual work, where some have fallen into the darkest pit where anything you'd need to do actual work is either denied, classified or both which is.. in my opinion pretty dumb.
Trust me, I know that feeling, recently at work I had to get 3 separate approvals for 3 different things to be allowed to connect to a server, but I do not believe this would happen with CCP as they don't have enough people for it to be worth it to implement such drastic measures. However, the 'threat' of such over-bureaucracy does not warrant not trying to be as secure as is reasonably possible. Wink

Originally by: Jiix Zix
More bureaucracy you bring into work, well, take a good look at goverment offices, sounds neato, huh?

Twisted Evil
I am painfully aware of Parkinson's Law, no need to tell me. Very Happy I can of course see how all of this could very much go very wrong, so your criticism is excellent in regards to pointing that out, thank you. Smile

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.18 21:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
That said, it is ****ty idea.

ISO9001 doesnt suddenly make your decission making process good, it only makes it cost alot of paper.


This. Standardization isn't the issue, an active neglect for spending effort on fixing the problems with the game is. ISO1234567890001 won't fix that.

Terrigal
Posted - 2010.07.19 03:09:00 - [16]
 

There's not a hope in hell CCP could or would get ISO9000. I've been there twice in companies and honestly its a pain in the rectum to comply with it. It's also very expensive to do and time consuming upon managers and staff, however once youve got that compliance it opens doors that previously had been shut. The ammount of money those two companies generated afterwards was astounding.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 03:30:00 - [17]
 

As a rule, good management will make good decisions. SOX and ISO don't help with that - they just get in the way in a number of ways.

-Liang

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:29:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Gavjack Bunk on 19/07/2010 20:29:28
Got a managemant consultancy business to promote or something?

You don't need paperwork to prove you're good, you just need results. They could have ISO-9001 coming out of the wazzoo's and "no, wait 18 months" will feel exactly as forlorn as it does today.


 

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