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Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:40:00 - [1]
 

I have to say that it fully supports everything that was in the CSM minutes, and actually underlines the complete disconnect from CCP staff and the Eve community as well as confirming that fact that CCP cares more about new content than actually fixing any problems that already exist

we're told the blog was created to combat some "rumors and half-facts that seem to have taken on a life of their own." Presumably these rumors would be that CCP is completely committed to incarna over all else, has no time to fix anything, has no interest in fixing any issue raised by CSM til 2012 at earliest, is totally on a different page than the players, etc

first off i don't like the tone that even starts with, since the CSM minutes were a collaborative effort between CCP and CSM but whatever


so first off, to disprove the notion that CCP is committed to incarna and dust over all else, we're told that 10 of the 18 teams at CCP are working on Dust and incarna. and an 11th is working on eve gate? so 2/3 of CCP is on these new features. "Of those, seven are on loan from other projects", how does this not prove the whole point of CCP being focused on Incarna at the expense of the rest of the game? What happened to Incarna not taking resources from the rest of the game?


oh but don't worry, there's 3 teams working on current content! or are there? "Currently, the plan is to have three teams working on EVE"? so that's what they're planning to do, or what is being done? how many are working on eve content now? of these 3 teams, one is apparently only focused on visual effects, so we actually have 1 pve team and 1 feature team "planned" to be working on the game. out of 18

the other 4 teams seem to be dedicated to fleet fights and trouble shooting, which i have no issue with, other than to say again that the trouble shooting here is abysmal and that my experience with petitions of bugs has not been good


"We have seen a number of players talking about us moving from new feature development into iteration in the year 2012, but until then we‘ll be pumping new features into the system. This is not an accurate description of how a 200-person development team works. In the 2011 winter expansion we‘ll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years. What those specific systems are, I don‘t know as we haven‘t started the planning phase for that yet."


lol, so it wont' be 2012 like the liars at CSM said, it'll be winter 2011? except you're not really sure what you'll be doing in winter 2011 cause it hasn't been planned yet. But you do know it won't be what CSM thought it would be


"That does not mean that we won‘t make any improvements until then! We haven‘t started planning the Spring 2011 or Winter 2011 expansions yet (not to that level of granularity) but we do realize the urgency of revisiting certain key game features. Rest assured, the CSM will play a large role in identifying those."

again, same thing. They have no improvements planned but they MIGHT put some in spring 2011 so therefore CCP's allegations about there not being anything on the table til after incarna were not accurate. Let's get real, if ANYTHING gets fixed in spring 2011, which is 9 months away btw, it will be because CSM pointed out how ridiculous it is that nothing was planned to be fixed for 18 months. even 9 months is crazy imo, to let problems sit that long

Then CCP Zulu wraps up by saying he feels the minutes portray an inaccurate view of the meetings with CSM, in spite of the fact that CSM didn't create the minutes on their own, and implies that clearly its CSM's delusion and not CCP's, in spite of the fact that his devblog basically completely confirms every single problem CSM complained about in the minutes

cont

Gieron
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:43:00 - [2]
 

What really annoys me is that they didn't create a thread in EVE Information Portal where we could discuss this dev blog instead of creating threads on GD about it.

Bilko Bobski
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:45:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Bilko Bobski on 17/07/2010 12:45:55
Originally by: Gieron
What really annoys me is that they didn't create a thread in EVE Information Portal where we could discuss this dev blog instead of creating threads on GD about it.


You mean this one?
Yeh, it's a shame it doesn't exist.

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:46:00 - [4]
 

namely that CCP has no plans for polishing old expansions, other than visually. CCP has no plans for FW, even though it is completely broken. CCP has no plans for fixing small things, easy things, like rockets. No plans to fix cosmos

because they only have one pve team, basically. out of 18

but since they haven't planned anything further out than 9 months from now, they resent CSM's implication that they won't fix all that sometime around the end of 2011, because they COULD. That's the half truths that the blog was meant to combat apparently

I just have never seen a company more out of touch with the issues of its customers. half of CCP is working on incarna because it will attract people who don't like the current EVE and also because "we figure some of you guys playing now probably want it too", but they can't find any time in the next year to fix things that people ask for on the forum every single day

Not new content, old content that is broken. But that takes a back seat to new content that even CCP admits isn't for us, its for people who don't play yet. The perceived disconnect is probably CSM's fault though, right?

Well done CSM for highlighting this whole issue, is all i can really say on a positive note, because no one ever would have believed it was this bad if we hadn't gotten numerous official statements confirming it

Namira Sable
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:47:00 - [5]
 

Too slow and wrong thread. In the future log out and then back in to avoid the 5 minute posting lag.

Haramir Haleths
Caldari
Nutella Bande
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:48:00 - [6]
 

Confirming OP is from Star Trek Online

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:52:00 - [7]
 

i don't know why i wouldn't be able to discuss something about eve in general discussion. i realize that there are similar threads in other sections but i also realize that more people are in GD than other forum areas


and i've never played star trek online

Peter XZ
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.17 12:55:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Haramir Haleths
Confirming OP is from Star Trek Online

Yeah , he's a Trekkie, bit shy about it, but yeah, a Trekkie.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.17 13:00:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jason1138
so first off, to disprove the notion that CCP is committed to incarna and dust over all else, we're told that 10 of the 18 teams at CCP are working on Dust and incarna. and an 11th is working on eve gate? so 2/3 of CCP is on these new features. "Of those, seven are on loan from other projects", how does this not prove the whole point of CCP being focused on Incarna at the expense of the rest of the game? What happened to Incarna not taking resources from the rest of the game?
So a company that has one product up and running and two more in production (Dust, WoD) has 2/3ds of its resources focused on things "non-EVE"?!! How horrid! Rolling Eyes

…leaving aside for the moment that there are significant cross-product development going on within both of those two games.

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
Posted - 2010.07.17 13:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Jason1138
i don't know why i wouldn't be able to discuss something about eve in general discussion. i realize that there are similar threads in other sections but i also realize that more people are in GD than other forum areas


It's called cross-posting, don't do it. If people in GD were interested in discussing a post from another forum, they should go to that forum where that post is. People like you.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.17 13:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Namira Sable
Too slow and wrong thread. In the future log out and then back in to avoid the 5 minute posting lag.


Ooooh, so that's how you beat the timer, thanks mate.

sasuk
Gallente
New Eden Construction Holdings
Posted - 2010.07.17 13:24:00 - [12]
 

hi all well I have been in and out of game since march 03 beta and have watched as the game has had many improvements and lot of problems, and it would now seem that ccp has focused its aim on the console market and this load of crap incana "walk around in a station rubbish "imo",

and the bugs that have been around for a long time seem to have been pushed under the rug for the new shine’s, don’t get me wrong i love new shine’s,

but ccp not fixing the existing bugs is a let down for the players who have been around for a long time and those of you who don’t suffer from them ....good for you.

as much as i love the game and have done since the elite days and will love the game for ever more i am no longer willing to fund ccp's willful disregard for quality over new content,

please fix the current bugs and i for one will be willing to pay for a game that is heads and shoulders above the rest,

its what made eve the best mmo in the world.

I have many accounts, and the sub’s for these have all been cancelled until further notice, and believe me it’s a lot of money including the plex’s I sell each week,

this is not an emoragequit and I have not lost any ship’s or stuff’z and no I don’t play wow or any of the other crap games eve was my only respite.

Oh and no u can’t have my stuff’z,

I will be back but not until ccp see the light and start to respect the player base as they used to.

Rant over and hope to see an improvement soon.Shocked

ps. am i the only player who feels this way...Question

and troll's need not post as it only confirms your stupidity and child like nature….Rolling Eyes



Depili
Blood Works Inc.
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2010.07.17 18:58:00 - [13]
 

So you are iterating on incarna, dust and PI, yay.... How about FW and Sov? Or atleast fixing their bugs that have been standing around since day 1 of the features?

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.17 19:28:00 - [14]
 

You might want to post this in the official thread. We are keeping a close eye on the official thread.

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:15:00 - [15]
 

You might want to try actually reading the blog and the CSM notes, since most of you seem to have missed quite a few key points.

They have plans for current content, and they will be updating and fixing old stuff. Not doing it right this very second does not mean they will never work on it. Deal with it, and grow up.

Gisou
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:42:00 - [16]
 

EVE needs incarna. It needs the interest and new subs that expansion will bring. EVE is old. Eve is still popular (largely with the same group of about 50, 000 people who hold all the accounts and all the t2 bpos!) but it could and should be far bigger and far more encompassing than it is. Incarna, cosmos, eve gate etc are all facets of what will in time come to be seen as 'EVE 1.5' and which will give this mmo another ten years of slow but steady growth and lead on to what will eventually be EVE 2.

Seriously show some appreciation for their willingness to continue to invest in EVE and be adventurous with stuff like Dust that most other risk averse turnover-only focussed companies would baulk at. They could probably have sold out to bigger corporations a million times over for an instant cash injection and hundreds of thousands of half witted guys wondering where the 'quests' are and why their titan can't dance etc. They haven't. Incarna and the kick on from there will add an entirely new dimension of gameplay/interactive potential and profitability to this mmo. I'm behind em all the way on that and look forward to the next couple of years with relish. ugh


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:09:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
You might want to post this in the official thread. We are keeping a close eye on the official thread.


I bet that isn't pleasant. Adida, is CCP Zulu himself keeping an eye on the thread? Embarassed

-Liang

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:13:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
You might want to post this in the official thread. We are keeping a close eye on the official thread.


While I echo CCP Adida in hoping people will post/read the official thread for the furtherance of discussion, I wanted to clarify that it doesn't mean we will give any less credence to the discussions that take place in threads like this (that are apart from the official one). Many points raised here, and in other threads, contain nuances not represented elsewhere. In addition, the direct echoes of similar opinions is also equally important for our understanding of player opinion.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren


I bet that isn't pleasant.


The best medicines usually taste bitter.

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:25:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: CCP Adida
You might want to post this in the official thread. We are keeping a close eye on the official thread.


I bet that isn't pleasant. Adida, is CCP Zulu himself keeping an eye on the thread? Embarassed

-Liang


He is, as are many other sets of eyes from the EVE dev team. And honestly no, it's not exactly pleasant to read that thread, but super important for us to do so and I'm glad it's there.

I know I'm taking copious amounts of notes to share internally. But then again, I'm a TL:DR kinda guy.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:29:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: CCP Adida
You might want to post this in the official thread. We are keeping a close eye on the official thread.


I bet that isn't pleasant. Adida, is CCP Zulu himself keeping an eye on the thread? Embarassed

-Liang


He is, as are many other sets of eyes from the EVE dev team. And honestly no, it's not exactly pleasant to read that thread, but super important for us to do so and I'm glad it's there.

I know I'm taking copious amounts of notes to share internally. But then again, I'm a TL:DR kinda guy.


Just remember that angry posts come from people who care. We dont hate you. We dont hate the game. We're worried about you and the game.

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:41:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Just remember that angry posts come from people who care. We dont hate you. We dont hate the game. We're worried about you and the game.

I'm pretty aware of that, especially heartened (as heartened as one can be in critical threads) to see the amount of time and care spent by people posting. While there's a lot of emotion behind all of the posts on all sides, so far it's been remarkably civil discussion.

Your point is an important one though that I'll make sure gets echoed in any internal discussions that I can. It's arisen in a few other threads and I'm glad that posters are taking the effort to make that clear.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:43:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: CCP Adida
You might want to post this in the official thread. We are keeping a close eye on the official thread.


I bet that isn't pleasant. Adida, is CCP Zulu himself keeping an eye on the thread? Embarassed

-Liang


He is, as are many other sets of eyes from the EVE dev team. And honestly no, it's not exactly pleasant to read that thread, but super important for us to do so and I'm glad it's there.

I know I'm taking copious amounts of notes to share internally. But then again, I'm a TL:DR kinda guy.


Just remember that angry posts come from people who care. We dont hate you. We dont hate the game. We're worried about you and the game.


this

there is rage, then there is /ragequit
the first is a good thing, even if hard for you all to read.
the second benefits no one visiting this website
though one can lead to the other

Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2010.07.17 21:52:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Just remember that angry posts come from people who care. We don't hate you. We don't hate the game. We're worried about you and the game.


You speak my mind as well. Most of my personal frustration is that it has always seemed that CCP doesn't listen to those of us who do care, or we get lost in the floods of trolls and whiners and ignored. The CSM meeting minutes and the Dev Blog of Doom™ only confirmed what we suspected for so long, that there was a distinct divide between what the players expect of EVE, and what CCP thinks EVE is.

Thanks for making this topic. It feels like coming out on the balcony after an intense 2-day negotiation session and being civil again, if even for only a few minutes before heading back inside for round 2.

I'm glad CCP is taking notes. _REALLY_ glad. It means we're not at an impasse, and there can be progress again on the front of player<->CCP communication. I miss the openness enjoyed during the beta and the first year or so after....before the dark times...before the PR and legal teams.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.17 22:15:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 17/07/2010 22:18:39
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: Malcanis
Just remember that angry posts come from people who care. We dont hate you. We dont hate the game. We're worried about you and the game.

I'm pretty aware of that, especially heartened (as heartened as one can be in critical threads) to see the amount of time and care spent by people posting. While there's a lot of emotion behind all of the posts on all sides, so far it's been remarkably civil discussion.

Your point is an important one though that I'll make sure gets echoed in any internal discussions that I can. It's arisen in a few other threads and I'm glad that posters are taking the effort to make that clear.


If I may make so bold, there is another thing you should echo:

(1) EVE, the game itself, by it's very nature strongly selects the kind of player who is analytical, patient, goal-orientated, good at retaining and processing information, and is above all able to work well with others in pursuit of creating their own story.

(2) We're also deeply interested in the maintenance and improvement of EVE.

(3) You've let us get a toe in the door, as it were, with the CSM. Just a toe, but the door has opened a little - and we've tasted the heady whiff of collaboration with you guys. You've changed the deal in a non linear way: things can never go back to the way they were before the CSM.

Lately, it's felt like CCP as a whole has been closing up, shutting us out more, regretting projects like the API, the CSM, EVEMON, EFT.... that you guys would rather run everything about EVE yourself. I put it to you that this is absolutely the wrong outlook. You should be going in exactly the other direction. You have a unique game structure and more importantly a unique customer base. Do you think that the level and quality of analysis and comment is what is commonly seen on other MMO forums? It is not.

Open up further. Let us help you make EVE what it ought to be. Obviously, you'll need to regulate the flow of information, and of course you will need to protect your IP. But that unique game structure cries out for a developer that is deeply aware that EVE is a game where the players make the game. Instead of presenting us with ex cathedra "new shiny", I put it to you that you should be creating the tools for the player to present wholly unexpected, beautiful, emergent creations to you. That is the direction you should be heading towards.

Example: Walking in Stations? Fantastic. Dont spend a god damb second of developer time creating station interiors. Give us a web-based toolkit and Let us design our stations*. The result: every station is different, you're freed up from doing a huge amount of content creation, and tens of thousands of players become far more invested in the game, because they've created their home in there now. You see where I'm, going with this?

Your customers can now either be an enemy to be hated and feared, or a valuable resource that you can partner up and grow with, but being just a dumb cashflow that can be ignored will never be an option.

Anyway. Just a thought I decided to put forward while you guys were in a talking mood.


*Yes I know that the goons will design their station to look like buttes and dongs. Deal with it... or just reject the design if it really matters to you.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.18 00:18:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 18/07/2010 00:18:08
Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 17/07/2010 22:18:39
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: Malcanis
Just remember that angry posts come from people who care. We dont hate you. We dont hate the game. We're worried about you and the game.

I'm pretty aware of that, especially heartened (as heartened as one can be in critical threads) to see the amount of time and care spent by people posting. While there's a lot of emotion behind all of the posts on all sides, so far it's been remarkably civil discussion.

Your point is an important one though that I'll make sure gets echoed in any internal discussions that I can. It's arisen in a few other threads and I'm glad that posters are taking the effort to make that clear.


If I may make so bold, there is another thing you should echo:

(1) EVE, the game itself, by it's very nature strongly selects the kind of player who is analytical, patient, goal-orientated, good at retaining and processing information, and is above all able to work well with others in pursuit of creating their own story.

(2) We're also deeply interested in the maintenance and improvement of EVE.

(3) You've let us get a toe in the door, as it were, with the CSM. Just a toe, but the door has opened a little - and we've tasted the heady whiff of collaboration with you guys. You've changed the deal in a non linear way: things can never go back to the way they were before the CSM.

Lately, it's felt like CCP as a whole has been closing up, shutting us out more, regretting projects like the API, the CSM, EVEMON, EFT.... that you guys would rather run everything about EVE yourself. I put it to you that this is absolutely the wrong outlook. You should be going in exactly the other direction. You have a unique game structure and more importantly a unique customer base. Do you think that the level and quality of analysis and comment is what is commonly seen on other MMO forums? It is not.

Open up further. Let us help you make EVE what it ought to be. Obviously, you'll need to regulate the flow of information, and of course you will need to protect your IP. But that unique game structure cries out for a developer that is deeply aware that EVE is a game where the players make the game. Instead of presenting us with ex cathedra "new shiny", I put it to you that you should be creating the tools for the player to present wholly unexpected, beautiful, emergent creations to you. That is the direction you should be heading towards.

Example: Walking in Stations? Fantastic. Dont spend a god damb second of developer time creating station interiors. Give us a web-based toolkit and Let us design our stations*. The result: every station is different, you're freed up from doing a huge amount of content creation, and tens of thousands of players become far more invested in the game, because they've created their home in there now. You see where I'm, going with this?

Your customers can now either be an enemy to be hated and feared, or a valuable resource that you can partner up and grow with, but being just a dumb cashflow that can be ignored will never be an option.

Anyway. Just a thought I decided to put forward while you guys were in a talking mood.


*Yes I know that the goons will design their station to look like buttes and dongs. Deal with it... or just reject the design if it really matters to you.


You shameless cross-poster Shocked

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.07.18 01:31:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: BrundleMeth on 18/07/2010 01:31:45
I've only been playing a couple of years now. Even if CCP never fixes any of the problems, I still find enough to do in the game to keep me interested. There are things in the game I'd like to see but doubt I ever will(T2 BPO's available, Tech 3 Modules and Rigs, actual enforcement of griefing rules, (yeah right)). Nothing I will quit over though and I bet a lot of others wouldn't quit over their choices either...

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.18 02:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga

You shameless cross-poster Shocked


This is the original.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:29:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest

Your point is an important one though that I'll make sure gets echoed in any internal discussions that I can. It's arisen in a few other threads and I'm glad that posters are taking the effort to make that clear.


Verbosity of Eve players scales linearly with the amount of worry until reaching the point where the barrel is flowing over and average posting length goes down to two to three cynical remarks.
Right now there's a large amount of words in various threads. You have a good opportunity to salvage the situation at this stage and I hope CCP higher ups are aware of this.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:24:00 - [30]
 

I really don't care that CCP are allocating extra resources towards new proejcts, it makes sense after all as it requires much manpower to implement new things..

HOWEVER

There are ....... Z E R O ......... Teams on GAME BALANCE

WTF that is simply not good enough (unless they come under "current features", then they really have their work cut out for them Rolling Eyes)


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