open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: Iterative development and what's happening in 2011
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 29 30 31 32 [33] 34 35 36 37 ... : last (66)

Author Topic

Radgette
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:23:00 - [961]
 

Edited by: Radgette on 19/07/2010 15:24:10
Originally by: CCP Hellmar
Wonderful EVE community,

I realize there are many good points raised in this thread which I could comment on but I wanted to help a bit by putting some clarifications and perspective out there quickly.

Feedback like we see here is indeed read by everyone that has anything to do with high level priorities at CCP and it does affect prioritization, it always has. Nowadays it takes longer for us to react, as the code base of EVE has grown and we have a larger team of specialists that work on it.

In prior times we had a smaller team of generalists to work on EVE and thus it was easier to both react quickly and for individuals to speak to a broader set of fields. The problems we are tackling now require more specialized knowledge, as they are deeper and more complex. Our solution to address the downsides of that is "enterprise scrum" which allows gelled teams of specialists to have the agility and domain breath as a generalist have.

We are still in the process of gelling our scrum teams and while that is occurring then people are timid when it comes to replying directly to the EVE community. It doesn't help that the EVE community is full of "tough customers" which I personally have always loved and appropriated, nothing worse than apathy which is certainly not our issue, but as new people come to the forefront then they need time to adjust to the ardent feedback that you tend to give.

I have often noticed people come out and speak to their responsibilities, feel the "hammer coming down" and pull back and be less willing to comment. It takes a lot of "old timers relating to their experiences" for people to open up again.

Regarding LAG
One poster cautioned CCP Zulu about having "same people who introduced the problem" working on addressing the current lag we are experiencing with large fleet fights.

Many of the fundamentals that need to be improved now were laid down by a handful of people a decade ago during my term as CTO 2000 – 2005 (I am currently CEO of CCP as of 2004).

Now we have a team of technologists, software architects, engineers, operation specialists working on the problem. These good people possess knowledge and ability way beyond what I ever had during those initial years of EVE development. It is not to say that the core technology of EVE Online is bad in anyway; however, the world and CCP have learned so much since that we have a much better chance of doing this right a decade later.

So we are indeed getting a very fresh perspective on the problem. It however takes time to catch up to all that has been done prior. Addressing the scalability challenges of a single shard MMO is probably one of the more complicated areas of parallel architecture design. There are some aspects (e.g. session coherency, lock congestion, module stickies) which I hope the team will be able to release in the coming months but these kind of fundamental changes need to be extensively tested before we enable them on Tranquility.




while i appreciate the response from ccp top brass you just came in said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING pertinent to the thread as a whole and completely ignored the "our idea of excellence and yours don't match" argument which is at the problems core and gave us technobabble about how things changed in the last 10 years

well no **** sherlock ofc things changed in 10 years and we already knew pretty much everything you said in your post.

so while it's nice to hear your feedback it would be much better if it was RELEVANT

Orange Faeces
The Atomik Izlamiks
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:26:00 - [962]
 

Big ups to the East Kampus/Senior Haus MIT massive. Good to see they have some CS people working on fleet lags. Razz


Pherusa Plumosa
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:31:00 - [963]
 

Originally by: Cailais

For the umpteenth time....

The team working on EVE Gate are Web Developers, WEB DEVELOPERS - (you know HTML code and all that stuff?) They would be about as useful working on fleet lag as an assembled group of Mongolian Yaks.

In short this team has no skill set to 'fix lag'. CCP Zulupark was making teh funnies he could just have easily written:

We have one team (at this point) assigned to cleaning the offices, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated cleaning team. [b]I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.


How do you think CCP got these Web-Developers? Did they magically appear and now live on plain air and love? No. CCP decided Spacebook > Game Fixes and hired their employees according to their priorities, payed by our subscription money. Players are not critizising that Web-Developers can't fix lag, they critizise CCPs management decisions to put Eve-Development on halt and concentrate on Dust,Incarna,Spacebook, WoD and other things non relevant to space-ship-pew-pew.

ceaon
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:33:00 - [964]
 

Originally by: VirusDancer
CCP: Would you like a cheese sandwich?

Player: Yes, thank you.

CCP: Here you go.

Player: Thank you, but wait - where is the cheese?

CCP: What? Your sandwich is working as intended.

* * * * *

CCP: Would you like a glass of milk to go with your sandwich?

Player: Yes, thank you - and could I get some cheese too please?

CCP: Here is your milk. What cheese?

Player: Thank you for the milk. The cheese missing from the sandwich.

CCP: We were not aware that cheese was missing from your sandwich.

Player: But I told you...

CCP: We will look into that.

Player: Thank you. Hrmmm, this milk tastes funny. Has it expired?

CCP: What? The milk is working as intended.

* * * * *

CCP: Would you like some chips?

Player: I do not know.

CCP: They're really good chips.

Player: Okay, thank you.

CCP: Here you go.

Player: Thanks. Any word on the cheese for my sandwich or a fresh glass of milk?

CCP: We just gave you chips, no?

Player: Well, yes. Kind of. Did you eat some as well? The bag is almost empty.

CCP: What? The chips are working as intended.

* * * * *

CCP: We forgot to give you a plate!

Player: I guess.

CCP: We're going to give you a plate!

Player: What about the cheese, milk, and chips?

CCP: After the plate!

Player: When will that be?

CCP: Probably in 18 months.

Player: Um, what?

CCP: It will be the best plate ever!

Player: /wrist


LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Sae Jabar
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:39:00 - [965]
 

Originally by: CCP Hellmar
Wonderful EVE community,

I realize there are many good points raised in this thread which I could comment on but I wanted to help a bit by putting some clarifications and perspective out there quickly.

Feedback like we see here is indeed read by everyone that has anything to do with high level priorities at CCP and it does affect prioritization, it always has. Nowadays it takes longer for us to react, as the code base of EVE has grown and we have a larger team of specialists that work on it.

In prior times we had a smaller team of generalists to work on EVE and thus it was easier to both react quickly and for individuals to speak to a broader set of fields. The problems we are tackling now require more specialized knowledge, as they are deeper and more complex. Our solution to address the downsides of that is "enterprise scrum" which allows gelled teams of specialists to have the agility and domain breath as a generalist have.

We are still in the process of gelling our scrum teams and while that is occurring then people are timid when it comes to replying directly to the EVE community. It doesn't help that the EVE community is full of "tough customers" which I personally have always loved and appropriated, nothing worse than apathy which is certainly not our issue, but as new people come to the forefront then they need time to adjust to the ardent feedback that you tend to give.

I have often noticed people come out and speak to their responsibilities, feel the "hammer coming down" and pull back and be less willing to comment. It takes a lot of "old timers relating to their experiences" for people to open up again.

Regarding LAG
One poster cautioned CCP Zulu about having "same people who introduced the problem" working on addressing the current lag we are experiencing with large fleet fights.

Many of the fundamentals that need to be improved now were laid down by a handful of people a decade ago during my term as CTO 2000 – 2005 (I am currently CEO of CCP as of 2004).

Now we have a team of technologists, software architects, engineers, operation specialists working on the problem. These good people possess knowledge and ability way beyond what I ever had during those initial years of EVE development. It is not to say that the core technology of EVE Online is bad in anyway; however, the world and CCP have learned so much since that we have a much better chance of doing this right a decade later.

So we are indeed getting a very fresh perspective on the problem. It however takes time to catch up to all that has been done prior. Addressing the scalability challenges of a single shard MMO is probably one of the more complicated areas of parallel architecture design. There are some aspects (e.g. session coherency, lock congestion, module stickies) which I hope the team will be able to release in the coming months but these kind of fundamental changes need to be extensively tested before we enable them on Tranquility.


A very diplomatic post which manages to say nothing at all. No explanation for the years of being told "the code would require a complete rewrite" as an excuse for not doing it.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:46:00 - [966]
 

Originally by: Pherusa Plumosa

How do you think CCP got these Web-Developers? Did they magically appear and now live on plain air and love? No. CCP decided Spacebook > Game Fixes and hired their employees according to their priorities, payed by our subscription money. Players are not critizising that Web-Developers can't fix lag, they critizise CCPs management decisions to put Eve-Development on halt and concentrate on Dust,Incarna,Spacebook, WoD and other things non relevant to space-ship-pew-pew.

Were was 'your' subscription money before 2003 (2000-2003), when EVE was developed. Or when EVE cost more then it brought in, or any other time CCP made investments that weren't paid with 'your' subscription...

CCP made it's investments, took all the risks and is reaping the benefits from profit, that's how businesses work. If they want to make in indoor beer pool at their headquarters for X million, they have earned that right. Your not an investor/owner...

Some players are indeed criticizing CCP on Dust514, Incarna, EVE Gate, WoD. Just as legion before them criticized anything CCP did, be it research, FW, WH, PI, etc. Other players still have fun riding the mechanical bull that is EVE, and would like their dose of Incarna/Dust514/WoD earlier rather then later, even at the cost of rocket explosion velocity...

What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.

CeneUJiti
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:51:00 - [967]
 

Edited by: CeneUJiti on 19/07/2010 15:54:27
Perhaps it would be good compromise if CCP could have 5-10 people (who are qualified and appropriate for the job) spend maybe 30-40% of their time on bugfixes, while doing new features or Dust or Incarna or whatever the CCP wants them to do in main time.

And a similar sized team for game balance.

Bugfixing and game balance are different approaches to game/code so they really require separate teams. And a living MMO really needs to have bugfix and balance teams all the time, especially looking at some issues present in EVE atm.

Sae Jabar
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:53:00 - [968]
 

Originally by: Cergorach
What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CCP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.

Just because only a fraction of Americans vote in their elections doesn't mean the rest don't care about the outcome. The world must be very black and white to you if you believe that it's only a minority complaining about how CCP does its development due to the mere fact that only a relatively few number of people have been posting in this thread.

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:54:00 - [969]
 

"What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum."


these forums are dead precisely because of CCP apathy towards player issues. The people posting here are the vocal minority but they DO represent the larger player base's opinions on most of these issues

for instance NO ONE that i have talked to on TQ or Sisi has any faith at all that CCP is on the right track regarding lag or that they will actually meet their published deadline on anything, not patches, not expansions, not DT, not anything

this isn't a case of forum folk being negative while really the game is peachy keen. its a case of 99% of the players realizing that nothing they say or do will matter to CCP so they don't bother posting

exactly the same case with CCP's bizarre 'our feedback on petitions looks great so there's no problem!' thing. it looks great cause no one bothers anymore

Zhang Ramses
Chaos From Order
Manifest Destiny.
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:55:00 - [970]
 

Originally by: CCP Hellmar
Wonderful EVE community,



Wonderful CCP CEO,

Could you give us some insight as to why CCP has the current set of priorities that it does? Why are the three most recent eve projects (Spacebook, Planetville, Second Station) not about flying ships in space?

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:56:00 - [971]
 

Originally by: Pherusa Plumosa
Originally by: Cailais

For the umpteenth time....

The team working on EVE Gate are Web Developers, WEB DEVELOPERS - (you know HTML code and all that stuff?) They would be about as useful working on fleet lag as an assembled group of Mongolian Yaks.

In short this team has no skill set to 'fix lag'. CCP Zulupark was making teh funnies he could just have easily written:

We have one team (at this point) assigned to cleaning the offices, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated cleaning team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.



[b]CCP decided Spacebook > Game Fixes and hired their employees according to their priorities, payed by our subscription money.



Yup. And your subscription money pays for the game as it is right now. Not next month, or next year. It lets you log on now. You're not an 'investor' who is somehow 'entitled' to say what CCP should, or should not do with its finances.

You may not like the decisions CCP are making involving what they spend their finances developing but you can either put up - or quit.

C.

Partar
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:56:00 - [972]
 

Thanks for the look behind the curtain of development. I for one am looking forward to Incarna and all the extra shinys it will bring to Eve.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:00:00 - [973]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 16:03:02
Originally by: Cergorach
What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.


Unfortunately, that is not correct.

Yes, the EVE forums used to be quite prone to vocal minorities, but over the years (largely because of that typical MMORPG subscriber addiction curve mentioned elsewhere and also because players themselves took things into excess) people have moved away - something fully in line with industry developments across mmo and regular gaming niches.

You can see it in how over those years external communities have become much more active, widening and deepening their scope. A lot of that is based on the influx of language groups over time, but a lot of that is also simply because of realisations over time by player groups on patterns and trends in and of the product.

That after those years people start to come here again, while being far more active in those external communities and forums, is far more significant then may seem at first.

Sure, there is the usual emo and rage, but that fits the normal patterns here. This thread does not stand out because of that, as it is (an unfortunate) regular pattern.

What does not fit the normal pattern, is that those external communities, sites and forums are even more active then ever before, but also start making a renewed entry in a thread like this. That is indicative of tresholds being met in customer respone and saturation patterns, as it's called in industry reports.

To reach back to an example given in a post many many pages ago, there is an external community known as SHC, basically the place where old people go to spin ships and be bitter and slag each other off over meaningless pixels. It's ran by a CCP staff member, if memory serves me right :P

In light of momentum building up over these years, and even the most bitter vets of all having a love or care for EVE, or at minimum remembering the old war stories they now tell to their grandkids, seeing such a community start exploring CCP, the product EVE, is surprising enough on its own.

Seeing them do this in a constructive, analytic and consistant manner, is quite honestly shocking. Akin to a revolution. Sure, in many other regards it remains the bitter vet home, but the momentum of analysis, care and constructive approach continues.

And now, they start to show up and bleed through to a thread like this. And their input, is among the most constructive visible in this thread.

And that, in terms of community management and customer response patterns, is highly indicative of a pattern shift. Those same fields of study tell us that such pattern shifts are very important to watch, because momentum built by such shifts is indicative to the direction of shifts.

SHC is no exception, you can see the same in many established alliance forums, language community forums, cross gaming guild sites, and so forth.



Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:02:00 - [974]
 

Originally by: Cergorach
Originally by: Pherusa Plumosa

How do you think CCP got these Web-Developers? Did they magically appear and now live on plain air and love? No. CCP decided Spacebook > Game Fixes and hired their employees according to their priorities, payed by our subscription money. Players are not critizising that Web-Developers can't fix lag, they critizise CCPs management decisions to put Eve-Development on halt and concentrate on Dust,Incarna,Spacebook, WoD and other things non relevant to space-ship-pew-pew.

Were was 'your' subscription money before 2003 (2000-2003), when EVE was developed. Or when EVE cost more then it brought in, or any other time CCP made investments that weren't paid with 'your' subscription...

CCP made it's investments, took all the risks and is reaping the benefits from profit, that's how businesses work. If they want to make in indoor beer pool at their headquarters for X million, they have earned that right. Your not an investor/owner...

Some players are indeed criticizing CCP on Dust514, Incarna, EVE Gate, WoD. Just as legion before them criticized anything CCP did, be it research, FW, WH, PI, etc. Other players still have fun riding the mechanical bull that is EVE, and would like their dose of Incarna/Dust514/WoD earlier rather then later, even at the cost of rocket explosion velocity...

What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.


Do you get paid per excuse or per hour?

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:05:00 - [975]
 

Originally by: CeneUJiti
Edited by: CeneUJiti on 19/07/2010 15:54:27
Perhaps it would be good compromise if CCP could have 5-10 people (who are qualified and appropriate for the job) spend maybe 30-40% of their time on bugfixes, while doing new features or Dust or Incarna or whatever the CCP wants them to do in main time.

And a similar sized team for game balance.

Bugfixing and game balance are different approaches to game/code so they really require separate teams. And a living MMO really needs to have bugfix and balance teams all the time, especially looking at some issues present in EVE atm.


We actually do constant maintenance of the game. All our developers working on future features have a certain % of their time allocated to fixing existing bugs. These requirements are pretty much constant, so you'll have a flow of fixes coming into the game. This is usually communicated through the patch notes, where a lot of the fixes are mentioned. They are ongoing all year though, so every release you'll get a load of fixes we have accumulated.

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:08:00 - [976]
 

Originally by: CCP Hellmar
Wonderful EVE community


Oh oh, we activated their trap card, Governor William J. Lepetomane has been brought into play, which whistleblower got banned for making Hilmar pull out a keyboard and switch off World of Warcraft? Come on... some lucky customer has to pay the price... who was it?

Get the New York Times on the blower... we're about to make some wild promises we have no intention of keeping.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:12:00 - [977]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We actually do constant maintenance of the game. All our developers working on future features have a certain % of their time allocated to fixing existing bugs. These requirements are pretty much constant, so you'll have a flow of fixes coming into the game. This is usually communicated through the patch notes, where a lot of the fixes are mentioned. They are ongoing all year though, so every release you'll get a load of fixes we have accumulated.


Out of curiosity, are bugs part of the backlog, or does the backlog consist just of potential changes?


Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:17:00 - [978]
 

Originally by: Sae Jabar
Originally by: Cergorach
What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CCP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.

Just because only a fraction of Americans vote in their elections doesn't mean the rest don't care about the outcome. The world must be very black and white to you if you believe that it's only a minority complaining about how CCP does its development due to the mere fact that only a relatively few number of people have been posting in this thread.


I don't know what country your from but in 2010 more then 75% of the Dutch (which are allowed to vote, 18+ citizen) showed up to vote for their government, and that was considered low, in 2006 it was more then 80% (I believe average).

If your allowed to vote, you should vote, whether through a ballot, raising your voice, or with your wallet. Anything else is irresponsible and should really exclude you from complaining about the situation you end up in.

Add to that, often the online forum community tends to be more vocal then your average customer. That doesn't mean that they by definition wrong, but they are also not by definition right. I dismiss the the few hundred souls complaining here as a minority, but VERY vocal (and sometimes just a tad unreasonable ;-).

My world is very black & white & brown & red & yellow & blue (smurfs are people too! ;-)

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:22:00 - [979]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 16:24:24
Originally by: Cergorach
Originally by: Sae Jabar
Originally by: Cergorach
What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CCP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.

Just because only a fraction of Americans vote in their elections doesn't mean the rest don't care about the outcome. The world must be very black and white to you if you believe that it's only a minority complaining about how CCP does its development due to the mere fact that only a relatively few number of people have been posting in this thread.


I don't know what country your from but in 2010 more then 75% of the Dutch (which are allowed to vote, 18+ citizen) showed up to vote for their government, and that was considered low, in 2006 it was more then 80% (I believe average).

If your allowed to vote, you should vote, whether through a ballot, raising your voice, or with your wallet. Anything else is irresponsible and should really exclude you from complaining about the situation you end up in.

Add to that, often the online forum community tends to be more vocal then your average customer. That doesn't mean that they by definition wrong, but they are also not by definition right. I dismiss the the few hundred souls complaining here as a minority, but VERY vocal (and sometimes just a tad unreasonable ;-).

My world is very black & white & brown & red & yellow & blue (smurfs are people too! ;-)


You're still working on a detail level here, besides, the vocal minority point is simply incorrect. Even Tweakers.net today has a decently active and discussing sub community on EVE, see my post a few ones up. Also, there you two are touching on cultural elements, keep in mind that is getting to the point of comparing apples and oranges for relevance at a butcher shop. EVE is a very diverse collection of different cultural backgrounds in these things :P

Also, for the love of god do not ever mention Smurfs. Some Dutch Dev might just smuggle them in as Easter Eggs in Incarna :P

Millard Wilson
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:24:00 - [980]
 

Originally by: Cergorach
What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum. They might sound they are many, but not even one thousandth of the accounts has responded in this forum thread.


John Smedley called the people *****ing about SWG's NGE a vocal minority. Look where that got them.

"With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again."

Sorry, someone had to post it ;).

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:24:00 - [981]
 

"I don't know what country your from but in 2010 more then 75% of the Dutch (which are allowed to vote, 18+ citizen) showed up to vote for their government, and that was considered low, in 2006 it was more then 80% (I believe average)."


i bet you're leaving out the legions of Dutch nationals who are fleeing Holland for other countries because they don't like the direction the country is headed

the comparison is more apt to eve if you throw that bit in there

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:26:00 - [982]
 

Originally by: Jason1138
"What I'm trying to point out is that not all players criticize CP for their management decisions, it's a rather vocal minority on the forum."

these forums are dead precisely because of CCP apathy towards player issues. The people posting here are the vocal minority but they DO represent the larger player base's opinions on most of these issues

for instance NO ONE that i have talked to on TQ or Sisi has any faith at all that CCP is on the right track regarding lag or that they will actually meet their published deadline on anything, not patches, not expansions, not DT, not anything

this isn't a case of forum folk being negative while really the game is peachy keen. its a case of 99% of the players realizing that nothing they say or do will matter to CCP so they don't bother posting

exactly the same case with CCP's bizarre 'our feedback on petitions looks great so there's no problem!' thing. it looks great cause no one bothers anymore

The reason these forums are 'empty' is because a certain VOCAL minority drives them away. I only frequent MD and sometimes S&I because places like GD are pretty much a cesspool imho. Even in MD there is now far more hostility and anti social behavior then a couple of years ago.

The reality of the situation IS that CCP won't do anything we voice our concerns about if the don't want to or are forced to. No company does that.

If indeed 99% of the posters don't care or trust the folks behind EVE, I would have expected a steady decline of subscriptions. Or are all the customers EVE junkies that complain about the quality of their fix, but keep on paying for that monthly fix?

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:28:00 - [983]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 16:34:19
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 16:30:31
Originally by: Cergorach

The reason these forums are 'empty' is because a certain VOCAL minority drives them away. I only frequent MD and sometimes S&I because places like GD are pretty much a cesspool imho. Even in MD there is now far more hostility and anti social behavior then a couple of years ago.

The reality of the situation IS that CCP won't do anything we voice our concerns about if the don't want to or are forced to. No company does that.

If indeed 99% of the posters don't care or trust the folks behind EVE, I would have expected a steady decline of subscriptions. Or are all the customers EVE junkies that complain about the quality of their fix, but keep on paying for that monthly fix?


You don't seem to "get" EVE. Like CCP, it is different from what is common. We do not vote with our feet, instead we engage. The patterns in which and where, are significant to the significance of engaging in discussion.

Once again, have a look at my post a little bit up :-)

Where it comes to players driving developers away from posting on the forums, well, yeah that has happened in the past, but that is only one side of the picture. There were plenty times where CCP would slam down on people taking the ****, and rightly so. I mean, there were times when CCP board Concord ships even to deal with pesky players. Always put things in perspective.

Where it comes to forum participation however, you also need to account for some very simple and basic things. CCP has grown very, very hard. These guys started to work on their magic tree and saw every nook and cranny of it, and suddenly there was a whole forest around it. The workload is a definite factor. You could argue that it is a serious shame CCP does not consider alternate business development and HR doctrines, for example similar to Google's 20% rule, but that IS their choice.


Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:34:00 - [984]
 

"If indeed 99% of the posters don't care or trust the folks behind EVE, I would have expected a steady decline of subscriptions."


and what evidence do you have that there is not a decline in the number of subscriptions?





Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:35:00 - [985]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo

You're still working on a detail level here, besides, the vocal minority point is simply incorrect. Even Tweakers.net today has a decently active and discussing sub community on EVE, see my post a few ones up. Also, there you two are touching on cultural elements, keep in mind that is getting to the point of comparing apples and oranges for relevance at a butcher shop. EVE is a very diverse collection of different cultural backgrounds in these things :P

Also, for the love of god do not ever mention Smurfs. Some Dutch Dev might just smuggle them in as Easter Eggs in Incarna :P


How large is the EVE 'sub community' on Tweakers.net? If you have a 100 active posters I would be shocked sir! I've posted a few times in those threads, but I wouldn't exactly call myself an active poster in those threads.

I've certainly noticed a cultural difference, I can see that pop up when and who posts in this thread. But keep in mind that Iceland is a European country...

As for smurfs, I want my blue and white Dominix and maybe eventually a blue and red Faction Dominix ;-)

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:36:00 - [986]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 16:53:33
Originally by: CCP Hellmar
Wonderful EVE community,

I realize there are many good points raised in this thread which I could comment on but I wanted to help a bit by putting some clarifications and perspective out there quickly.


Well hello there Mr. Big Boss.

It is nice to finally see someone with more responsiblity then "sorry-not-my-field-of-work" and I, as well as most of my fellow players, appreciate your answering-attempt. So... Will you actually read this whole thread and eventually the "Excellence" poll in the Assembly Hall, too? Will you please answer some of the questions raised in this thread, which are not related to technical issues but organizational? Like...

    When can we expect the backlog- and CSM-raised issues getting the proper attention?

    How far down the development-road are Incarna and Dust?

    What can we, as the players, expect from the initial and subsequent Incarna-releases?

    Why is it not possible to assign even a single team solely to the backlog- and CSM-raised issues?

    Is there a realistic chance, to actually get some sort of public bug-tracker (no need to include the step-by-steps into the public data) and an official backlog as well as a proper documentation of the efforts made to resolve these issues?

    Will you take note of us not critizicing or adressing your technical data and informations, but seeing problems in your organizational patterns, especially in regard about prioritizing issues?

    *several more* ?


We and I are looking forward to your answers to these nontechnical but organizational questions. Thank you in advance, for both the clear and direct answers to these questions and not bringing in scalability, technical or SCRUM-based buzzword-answers.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:37:00 - [987]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 16:38:47
Originally by: Jason1138
"If indeed 99% of the posters don't care or trust the folks behind EVE, I would have expected a steady decline of subscriptions."


and what evidence do you have that there is not a decline in the number of subscriptions?




Study the QEN, while total subscriptions goes up, account creation stays steady, but people stay less long. The curve is flattening somewhat, extrapolate over time, introduce the iteration/expansion/feature introduction cycles, and you can see interesting patterns on a shift from steady growth to a much more cyclic growth.

But, remember, you have lies, damn lies, and statistics. Sometimes I think the Dutch invented statistics :P


Originally by: Cergorach
Originally by: Virtuozzo

You're still working on a detail level here, besides, the vocal minority point is simply incorrect. Even Tweakers.net today has a decently active and discussing sub community on EVE, see my post a few ones up. Also, there you two are touching on cultural elements, keep in mind that is getting to the point of comparing apples and oranges for relevance at a butcher shop. EVE is a very diverse collection of different cultural backgrounds in these things :P

Also, for the love of god do not ever mention Smurfs. Some Dutch Dev might just smuggle them in as Easter Eggs in Incarna :P


How large is the EVE 'sub community' on Tweakers.net? If you have a 100 active posters I would be shocked sir! I've posted a few times in those threads, but I wouldn't exactly call myself an active poster in those threads.

I've certainly noticed a cultural difference, I can see that pop up when and who posts in this thread. But keep in mind that Iceland is a European country...

As for smurfs, I want my blue and white Dominix and maybe eventually a blue and red Faction Dominix ;-)


Hey, if you're interested in an actually constructive discussion, never fall prey to selective application of context, look at the post I linked you :-)

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:40:00 - [988]
 

Originally by: Millard Wilson

John Smedley called the people *****ing about SWG's NGE a vocal minority. Look where that got them.

"With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made," he told us. "We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have, and it's not a mistake we're going to make again."

Sorry, someone had to post it ;).


The boy who cried wolf, was right once to...

Originally by: Jason1138

i bet you're leaving out the legions of Dutch nationals who are fleeing Holland for other countries because they don't like the direction the country is headed

the comparison is more apt to eve if you throw that bit in there

Do you know something I don't, don't know of 'legions' of Dutch leaving the country? Is this a not so veiled attempt at Trolling? I don't know, your not doing it very well ;-)

Originally by: Jason1138

and what evidence do you have that there is not a decline in the number of subscriptions?


Last QEN Q1 2010.

Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:40:00 - [989]
 

"And that‘s that."

Is anyone remotely interested in the roadmap you have just posted? I can honestly tell you that it harbours absolutely no interest to me and confirms there is nothing to look forward to for the forseeable future. As a long-term customer its difficult to justify continued investment into a product which seems to be going in the wrong direction.

Peripheral features such as Incarna are of course great additions for increasing immersion, but fundamentally there is no evidence you are doing anything to fix the core issues of the game; unplayable lag, broken sov warfare, the technetium scandal, useless ship classes etc...

Listen to your customers before they finally summon up the courage to leave behind something they have invested in for many years

Psihius
Caldari
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:42:00 - [990]
 

Edited by: Psihius on 19/07/2010 16:42:39
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Yes, we use .NET for the rest of our web sites and had experience, tools, components, build and deployment processes and in-house skills to build EVE Gate using .NET.

Maybe some really deep insight into the development world of EVE sometime later? Something programmer style with lots of details? Really would love to read something like that.
Only donwside is - not many will understand. Well, they should HTFU! :D


Pages: first : previous : ... 29 30 31 32 [33] 34 35 36 37 ... : last (66)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only