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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.16 08:21:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 16/07/2010 10:24:50
No I am not botting, I never have and never will, but I am deeply worried about the direction the game is taking.

With Tyrannis a boring clickfest was introduced, but with products that are of vital interest of the economy. Also a very important aspect of this mechanic is, aside from the fact that it is boring, stupid and hand-strain introducing, is that short extraction cycles have in the long run a higher output, but have to be restarted again and again, forcing players to do the same stupid things over and over. There are also the constraints of time, since not many can really afford to dedicate a lot of personal time to the same clickfests.

Automated macros do not suffer from the same issues. they can easily execute the same commands, much faster then any human, so if PI macros do not yet exist, it will not be a long time before they do and as it happened before, they will soon flood the market and destroy any profit for legitimate players while still providing a nice 'passive' income for the macroer.

This is were you failed CCP. Calling Planetary Interaction gameplay would be to flattering, since there is no 'game' inside.

Since PI is totally messed up the only sensible thing to do is to remove this mechanic. Reintroduce the NPC market orders and shut down and lock any PI installation and perhaps reimburse the legitimate players who wasted their time on this. Then I recommend to scrap the whole effort and start over, hopefully with a new team of developers and without a completely unrealistic release deadline.


Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.16 08:40:00 - [2]
 

But if you macro, people can see you doing it.

Oh wait, that's mining and ratting... not sat in a station spinning planets... ohhh.... nobody can see you macro mining therefore nobody can report it.... ohhhhh....

It's almost like they had that planned in from day one.....
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.07.16 09:04:00 - [3]
 

People must be making 1s of millions doing this

Cynn O'Shurall
Posted - 2010.07.16 09:31:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Spurty
People must be making 1s of millions doing this

Yes there's a delicate balance between payers who sell plexes and timecards on the one hand and macro miners who have the money to buy them and play for free on the other. I hope PI macros won't drive up the plex prices becaue you can't farm more than 23/7 of course.

It's a great system, never seen it in other game before!

Depili
Blood Works Inc.
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2010.07.16 11:25:00 - [5]
 

Well, just wait 18 months and CCP will get to fixing it!

And bear in mind that with the unamed-snake-species injections it would be really easy to script PI...

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.16 12:17:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 16/07/2010 12:17:20
I enjoy PI. I don't find it boring, stupid or a 'click fest'. So no OP I don't agree with you or your recommendation.

C.


Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2010.07.16 12:44:00 - [7]
 

It is a click fest, and it is really boring. The only adventure would happen when moving materials off planets and around the region while in Low/Null sec. But the PI itself = massive boredom.

Passive income? Not really; not if you want to garner any real profits. I set up on four planets, and I find I DO NOT want to spend time, even the small extractor fire up time, on these units. It is the opposite of fun, and it feels like work. Since I already have a job IRL, I don't need the boring job of Extractor Tech in the game. And people say they actually enjoy PI !?!? OMG... watch the moving dashed lines ... not even any occasional ratz to disturb your wandering mind...

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:07:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 16/07/2010 13:07:46



If it were not for the silly click fest I'd really like PI as the rest of it is good. It's the only game mechanic where I willingly go to low and nul sec in a PVE ship.

But I'd rather save my hand aching and let the extractors stay inactive. It's the same reason I don't mission in low sec, the constant clicking is not something I have any interest in doing. RSI is a serious consideration for those of us who use computers constantly for work and have been doing so for years. No amount of game income replaces my health.

Hopefully they will either allow group select or introduce another mechanic which requires more thought but less click.

Once set up it's a bot activity. I'm not sure if this was intended but it's the effect.

Wintron Auto
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:45:00 - [9]
 

planetary interaction worst interaction

instead i'm going to shoot 1 rat per hour and make more money, thanks for the SUPER COOL FEATURE CCP, i hope you spend the next year or two making things that are as cool as this... OWAI-

Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:50:00 - [10]
 

It takes 60+ clicks just to reset the extractors on one planet, 15 extractors, 4 clicks for each - Select extractor, select survey, select deposit, select extract. Then once you've done all of them, press "submit" button.

To export something, it takes 1 click to select the customs office, right click, then left click to access it. Click "export", because it always wants to import by default. Click to select each commodity being exported. Click to add them to transfers. Click transfer. Click customs office again, click "open hold" to get your products, then drag them to your cargohold.

So, maybe 70 clicks to reset extractors and collect your planet goop. Per planet.

I think there's a lot of room for improvement. Keyboard shortcuts or something, to "select next idle extractor" or something. Almost anything would be better.

Killstealing
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:56:00 - [11]
 

You know what would be awesome? Extractor grouping like weapon grouping. Hell, even make it take some more CPU or something.

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.16 14:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Spurty
People must be making 1s of millions doing this


lol

Malachi256
Posted - 2010.07.16 14:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
It takes 60+ clicks just to reset the extractors on one planet, 15 extractors, 4 clicks for each - Select extractor, select survey, select deposit, select extract. Then once you've done all of them, press "submit" button.

To export something, it takes 1 click to select the customs office, right click, then left click to access it. Click "export", because it always wants to import by default. Click to select each commodity being exported. Click to add them to transfers. Click transfer. Click customs office again, click "open hold" to get your products, then drag them to your cargohold.

So, maybe 70 clicks to reset extractors and collect your planet goop. Per planet.

I think there's a lot of room for improvement. Keyboard shortcuts or something, to "select next idle extractor" or something. Almost anything would be better.



It's worse than just number of clicks, too. Every extractor has a few seconds of wait... it's truly mind-numbing.

Novantco
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.07.16 14:25:00 - [14]
 

Don't know how anyone can stand PI, it makes me want to stab myself in the face.

RatKnight1
Gallente
Mahdi Followers
Posted - 2010.07.16 14:27:00 - [15]
 

My corp has been doing PI as a group for about a month now. We are averaging 400 mil a week off of it, just producing Enriched Uranium, and coolant, as well as other POS fuels (many of which fuel our own POS's).The leftover is 400 million ISK worth of profit. That isn't even from doing PI constantly.

Basically PI is sooo boring that noone wants to do it, so profits are ridiculously high.


Quetazal
Gallente
Clann Fian
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.07.16 14:52:00 - [16]
 

Making 24mil a day here, it pays for my sub :-)

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.16 15:00:00 - [17]
 

Maybe we should compare the supposed boredom of PI with some other EVE activities like ooooooh I dunno... mining.

Right click roid. Lock. Click mining laser. Wait. Right click station. Warp to station. Unload ore. Repeat.

Gosh! That was exciting!

I wonder if there are any other thrilling activities that just knock PI into a hat like that?!? There cant be can there?? Oh oh wait! What about salvaging!!? Or or Gas Harvesting!? OMG...what about...HAULING! *gasp*

Undock. Turn on autopilot. Wait. Dock.

You're right compared to these white knuckle edge of your seat adrenaline pumping tasks PI just cant compete!

C.



Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.16 16:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
It takes 60+ clicks just to reset the extractors on one planet, 15 extractors, 4 clicks for each - Select extractor, select survey, select deposit, select extract. Then once you've done all of them, press "submit" button.



Kathryn Dougans - programmable mouse buttons
Programmable mouse buttons - Kathryn Dougans

Now that you both are introduced, program one of the extra buttons to a double click and you have cut your clicking in half.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.16 16:37:00 - [19]
 

There is no interaction when managing planets. There is no challenge, no opposition, no choice. Once set up there is nothing to respond to, nothing to think about, no decisions to be made.

This means PI could feasibly run on automatic. To prevent it from running on automatic CCP has intentionally created artificial hurdles to make PI difficult by making them an irritating time-sink. Pointless confirmation clicks, artificial cycles (why must I need to restart a cycle each 23 hours? Why not just keep producing until all the storage is filled?).

It is a really, really poor game design to make a part of your game so boring that the participation threshold is raised significantly, and that only those that are able to withstand stand the mind-numbing click-fest can make some decent isk.

Just imagine monopoly having a rule that states if you roll the dice a 60 times after you pass go, you get a 50% extra. It would be a stupid and pointless rule.

Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
Posted - 2010.07.16 16:47:00 - [20]
 

It's only a "click fest" if you are running 30 minute cycles. Having to click 30 times every 5, 23 or 96 hours is not a "click fest." It can be macroed, but I doubt it's the highest rate of return for doing so. I would imagine someone willing to break the rules of the game would rather be running a mining or ratting macro.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.16 16:59:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mire Stoude
It's only a "click fest" if you are running 30 minute cycles. Having to click 30 times every 5, 23 or 96 hours is not a "click fest." It can be macroed, but I doubt it's the highest rate of return for doing so. I would imagine someone willing to break the rules of the game would rather be running a mining or ratting macro.


It is a clickfest. Clickfests are not defined solely as number of clicks, but number of pointless and boring clicks which don't require any user input.

Look at this very simple usability improvement:

1. Only make people click to activate extractors when they want to change extraction rates.
2. Make it possible to link all extractors on a planet, so that you can change extraction rates with on click.

These two changes will instantly remove 95% of the clicks, and many of the clicks that remain actually involve thought and decision making.

However, with lack of any interaction in PI, this would make PI a largely afk affair. So rather than creating actual interaction CCP increased the difficulty by introducing artificial hurdles in the form of requiring lots of mindless clicks at regular intervals.

Even a trained rat could do most of the active management of your planets if you give them food pellets for clicks.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.07.16 17:11:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Malachi256
It's worse than just number of clicks, too. Every extractor has a few seconds of wait... it's truly mind-numbing.


Seriously. I have just gotten into PI (not entirely by my initiative either), and I find that about a milion times more annoying than some clicking. Updating 100 market orders doesn't take less clicks, and I do it more often than once every 23 hours. But I don't have to wait 5 seconds between every click for absolutely no reason other than to slow me down.

I understand the delay in for example probing - you don't want people to scan you down in 20 seconds. Similar with anchoring POSes. But the extractors... no way. I'll stick to running reactions only, if even that.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.16 17:20:00 - [23]
 

Everyone talks about PI being a clickfest. Invention is just as bad if not worse with 8 clicks to start 1 job. So thats 80 clicks per character if you have advanced lab op 4. Now multiply that by the number of characters doing invention to actually get enough T2 BPCs to do anything with.

You're running 2 accounts doing invention at a POS. That comes out to 480 clicks every 1 hr and 15 minutes if you are doing modules.

Right-click
invention
select the location dropdown box
select current system
select the lab
select the slot in the lab
click accept
click accept again


So unless you are doing 30 minute extraction cycles invention is actually worse the PI.

Loki Nahat
Skyforger
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2010.07.16 17:39:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Breaker77
Sensible things


Most sensible rationale I've heard all week. Sadly few will listen. Good effort in the war against insane claims.

Loki

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.16 17:51:00 - [25]
 

If you suspect anyone of using macros to play please submit a petition to the GMs. They will investigate the situation.

DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:00:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
If you suspect anyone of using macros to play please submit a petition to the GMs. They will investigate the situation.


LOL, how would you know? There is no interaction between players in PI! You can do it all while docked in station!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:04:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Loki Nahat
Originally by: Breaker77
Sensible things
Most sensible rationale I've heard all week. Sadly few will listen. Good effort in the war against insane claims.
That's not a "rationale" or an "effort against insane claims" it's a demonstration that it's just as dreadful in other places as well.

Yes, PI is a clickfest by any measure.
Yes, invention is also a clickfest by any measure.

One does in no way excuse the other in fact, they rather reinforce each other to show that both suck teh big one1! from a UI standpoint.

John Ellsworth
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:33:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: John Ellsworth on 16/07/2010 18:33:54


I suspect that Pi will change drastically when Dust 514 is released. Why? because then we will have ground teams out to destroy your instilations... your basing your opinion on the (tip of the iceberg) Id say you need to wait until all the features are implemented . I also suspect some "new resources" will spring up around that time that will rival moon products. Just a hunch LaughingShockedCoolRolling EyesYARRRR!!ugh

arjun
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:34:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: arjun on 16/07/2010 18:51:41
wtf mr gm adida do u have a clue at all?

the main source of minerals now is the drone loot and in the drone regions are literally thousands of macros running semi permanently. ccp made their work even easier with the latest patch.
how large a percentage of them get banned per month? yeah...... exactly. will be the same with pi.

why is mining a job for bots? cklicking every couple minutes to carry over ore to a container or ship
why is ratting a botjob? horrible clickfest
why is mission running a botjob? mindnumbingly boring and repititive (with exceptions if you do them for the firsst time)
why will pi be a haven for bots? clickclickclick.

NO CLUE

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:40:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
If you suspect anyone of using macros to play please submit a petition to the GMs. They will investigate the situation.


How could we tell someone is macroing PI? Whether someone automated this clickfest or not is impossible to tell from an outside point of view. But still the central fact of PI remains, why is the core of the gameplay a daily repeat of lots of clicks?

Why was the core mechanic made so dull that additional strain introduing clickfests had to be introduced just to have players spent time on the planetary overview?

The only thing looking beautiful are the small holoviews of the structures but I doubt many people pay much attention to them.



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