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blankseplocked CSM backfired on CCP creating a PR disaster?
 
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Rubikoner
Posted - 2010.07.15 11:21:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Rubikoner on 15/07/2010 11:21:52
That is my feeling seriously.
CSM was created as a PR tool mostly ( i am not saying it was the only reason)
After i read CSM minutes , private blogs of CSM members , threads on this forums i think that tool of ccp got out of hand and went "rogue".
After reading all of that I asked myself a question , do i get the impression that CCP is cooler company or not... well certanly _not_ ( i specificly say impression , coz ccp is probably a very cool company but CSM is not adding to that image)



ps
hint ,hint ...
such jewels from minutes do not help either (blunt lie)
"Lag will always be an issue however EVE, but EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been." SmileShockedLaughing


CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:13:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Rubikoner
Edited by: Rubikoner on 15/07/2010 11:21:52
That is my feeling seriously.
CSM was created as a PR tool mostly ( i am not saying it was the only reason)
After i read CSM minutes , private blogs of CSM members , threads on this forums i think that tool of ccp got out of hand and went "rogue".
After reading all of that I asked myself a question , do i get the impression that CCP is cooler company or not... well certanly _not_ ( i specificly say impression , coz ccp is probably a very cool company but CSM is not adding to that image)

ps
hint ,hint ...
such jewels from minutes do not help either (blunt lie)
"Lag will always be an issue however EVE, but EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been." SmileShockedLaughing


Please allow me to refer you to this thread, where I've commented on some of the things you are bringing up. Hope that helps a bit with your changing opinion.

You bring up an interesting point which I think shows one of the reasons why other developers I talk to think we are absolutely ridiculously insane for engaging in something like the CSM.

That being the possibility that they will vocally disagree with us. In fact, with EVE, that's more likely a probability instead of a possibility. EVE's complexity, metagame and very design lend it to so many various playstyles, opinions and social groups that representatives of each of those groups will almost necessarily clash to some degree. And, well, if they didn't have serious issues to bring to us, would they really be worthwhile? I've been amazed with each CSM the amount of preparation and thought they bring to the table. While they might not have represented "Pilot X" perfectly, they do represent the player base pretty well it turns out.

So yes, the CSM thrives on diversity and difference of opinion, like any good political body should. The members didn't go through elections and travel to Iceland just to play fanboi and get signatures on their copies of The Burning Life. Trust me, I had a sharpie ready! They, as players, have issues they think will improve EVE Online. Internet spaceships can be very serious business.

Expect dissent? Indeed. Kinda cringe every time they aren't giving us a high five? Instinctually :)


Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:55:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Dragon Greg on 15/07/2010 17:58:32
Manifest, did you read the feedback in that thread?

I mean, all due respect, and I think it is fair to say that after that CSM summit people have a new found respect for the actual devs, but you're confusing a few points. Mixing up a bunch of definitions. And missing the actual points in question.

I really am sorry, but this method is not going places, other to engage on and confirm a negative spiral. There are much better methods at the disposal.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:57:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 15/07/2010 17:57:55
Originally by: CCP Manifest

...other developers I talk to think we are absolutely ridiculously insane for engaging in something like the CSM.



I thought the same thing; either CCP is using the CSM as a PR front, or they're nuts.

Having suffered through SOE's many SWG snafus, I remember their attempt at having Class Leaders bring forward issues to the dev team. While the dev team was filling the Class Leaders with sunshine and rainbows to feed the players, management was pulling assets off of SWG to take things in another direction.

When the Class Leaders started making noises that management didn't like, they started dissapearing.

SOE Management was so focused on how to change their game to get new player numbers (like The Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned), that they failed to realize one simple thing. People that wanted to play TGTSNBM, already were. People that wanted to play SWG as it was, already were. In the end, they failed to get the new players, lost nearly all their current players, and ruined the company name in the process.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see that pattern come around again.

Only time will tell.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.15 18:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see that pattern come around again.


Read the Minutes about the "Combat Upgrade".
Read about the unannounced feature that CSM apparently didn't like.


What can be seen...

Em'phasis
Amarr
Grey Nomads
Posted - 2010.07.15 23:37:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see that pattern come around again.


Read the Minutes about the "Combat Upgrade".
Read about the unannounced feature that CSM apparently didn't like.


What can be seen...


Oh please say that there isn't going to be a CCP equivalent to the Combat Rebalance & the NGE!!!

Do we all get to be Jedi's this time around? Wink

Shakon
Posted - 2010.07.16 00:04:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:34
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:06
CCP and the CSM remind me of an old saying. You can tell when politicians are not telling the truth their lips are moving. Or in this case when they are on the forums typing.


mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.16 02:35:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Shakon
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:34
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:06
CCP and the CSM remind me of an old saying. You can tell when politicians are not telling the truth their lips are moving. Or in this case when they are on the forums typing.



I am currently not telling the truth.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.16 02:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
stuff


Players don't care about giving CCP feedback unless CCP acts on it.

Do you understand what this means?

The players have an interest in improving their state of living within the game. For the most part, the players don't give the sweat off of a rat's balls about the individual comfort of the developers and management. Some of us do, most of us don't.

As far as the players are concerned, if they give CCP feedback and CCP does not visibly adapt accordingly, giving the feedback was a waste of the player's time. If you then tell the players that you are in fact listening, that only serves to further irritate them, because as far as the playerbase is concerned, actions speak louder than words. Telling the players that they're being listened to and then acting counter to that is insult to injury. To word it more colourfully, players don't like being p!ssed on and then get told that it's raining.

This may not be directly your problem or responsibility. But it is somebody's problem and responsibility.

Creating the CSM created an expectation: That CCP would adapt (to a reasonable extent) to fit the desires of the players.

THIS is the expectation that's been broken here. Nothing else.

Dealeeo
Posted - 2010.07.16 03:23:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Shakon
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:34
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:06
CCP and the CSM remind me of an old saying. You can tell when politicians are not telling the truth their lips are moving. Or in this case when they are on the forums typing.



I am currently not telling the truth.


oh oh, liar's paradox. amirite?

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.16 03:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dealeeo
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Shakon
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:34
Edited by: Shakon on 16/07/2010 00:04:06
CCP and the CSM remind me of an old saying. You can tell when politicians are not telling the truth their lips are moving. Or in this case when they are on the forums typing.



I am currently not telling the truth.


oh oh, liar's paradox. amirite?

........no 8)

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.16 08:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Em'phasis
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see that pattern come around again.


Read the Minutes about the "Combat Upgrade".
Read about the unannounced feature that CSM apparently didn't like.


What can be seen...


Oh please say that there isn't going to be a CCP equivalent to the Combat Rebalance & the NGE!!!

Do we all get to be Jedi's this time around? Wink


Na, we'll get a full line of T3 ships instead.

farfrael
FP Enterprise
Posted - 2010.07.17 11:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest


That being the possibility that they will vocally disagree with us. In fact, with EVE, that's more likely a probability instead of a possibility. EVE's complexity, metagame and very design lend it to so many various playstyles, opinions and social groups that representatives of each of those groups will almost necessarily clash to some degree.




Nice trick trying to dilute the impact of the CSM message by claiming it is not representative of the player base but no dice (it's not working).

Please note most of the issues raised by the CSM have nothing to do with specific playstyles and social groups and a whole lot more with fundamental, core, gameplay mechanics which are broken and have been for a long time and the fact players want CCP to stop for a short while and focus on fixing these issues instead of allocating most of the resources to chasing after new subscribers

interestingly enough, this CSM appears to be one of the most united in its purpose ever: make you CCP realise that contrary to all your claims of excellence and wonderful state of the game this is not the case. You CANNOT ignore your existing playerbase and dedicate everythgin to potential new subscribers, this attitude will kill eve.

Terrigal
Posted - 2010.07.17 11:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Em'phasis
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see that pattern come around again.


Read the Minutes about the "Combat Upgrade".
Read about the unannounced feature that CSM apparently didn't like.


What can be seen...


Oh please say that there isn't going to be a CCP equivalent to the Combat Rebalance & the NGE!!!

Do we all get to be Jedi's this time around? Wink


Na, we'll get a full line of T3 ships instead.


You forgot + 40 new skills to go with the new T3 ships that take 2 years to get to lvl5.


 

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