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Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.12 21:04:00 - [31]
 

At least the development time spent on Incarna didn't interfere with the normal development resources allocated to internet spaceships.

Shakon
Posted - 2010.07.12 21:59:00 - [32]
 

2 things come to mind reading that.
Sounds like a jita scammer!
Or a used car salesman on the interweb selling a clunker!


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.12 22:11:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Hertford
At least the development time spent on Incarna didn't interfere with the normal development resources allocated to internet spaceships.


Yeah I'm really pleased that CCP flat-out lied to us about that.

Incarna as a low-resource bonus from WoD development? Sweet, nice thinking. Good synergy there.

Incarna as a giant dev-guzzling resource hog that leaves the game mired in rotting pig-**** for 18 months? Not so nice, you ****ing morons. What the **** were you thinking? You took a giant **** all over your core game, then lied to your customers about how much it cost. Who's short-bus genius strategy was that?

(1) **** over the veteran playerbase who run multiple accounts for a long time
(2) In favour of new players who run one account for a few months
(3) ...?
(4) Profit?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.12 22:28:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/07/2010 22:30:25
This.... is really ****ing depressing.

"Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isn’t committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment."
No... it really isn't. It's a sign that you do more development, not put more polish on that development.

"It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features."
Indeed. Unfortunately word of mouth sells even better - and they're running grave risks with that.

"A specific Low Sec expansion is not on the 18 month plan"
#fail. It doesn't even have to be "focused on low sec"... there's a lot that can be done without making a whole goddamn expansion.

"The CSM suggested a dedicated ”polish team“ to be established, with players being informed as to what they intend to work on during each expansion. CCP ́s answer to that is that there will be no polish patrol team for the next 2-3 expansions even though players feel there should be."
#fail. This is what you need most, honestly.

"CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust."
#fail. So many things that can be fixed, so little incentive to do it. Just another CCP #failure.


I am *SO TEMPTED* to offer to work on Eve *for free* in my spare time. But I don't know that I want to work on a MMO that seems determined to wallow in pig **** until it dies a diseased husk. Why is CCP so determined to fail?

-Liang

Ed: Formatting.

Milo Caman
Gallente
Anshar Incorporated
Posted - 2010.07.12 22:55:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/07/2010 22:30:25
This.... is really ****ing depressing.



Seconded. What's the ****ing point of the CSM if CCP are just going to ignore everything thrown at them, deny anything's wrong, and bulldoze ahead with a gamebreaking (or in this case not even game-related) schedule anyway?

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:01:00 - [36]
 

The content of the meetings minutes is disappointing. CCP gave CSM4 the same "18 month" time frame which means they added stuff in that ignored CSM's stakeholder input or it was just a smoke screen in the first place. Incarna taking dev resources is a new line, a definite departure from their earlier statements that no EVE development resources were being diverted to it. There's a possible upside in that the Incarna release will be that much better for it, but given post-Apocrypha history and CCP's tone I'm not hopeful that's the case.

On the minutes format: Action Points are an awesome addition to these things on a lot of levels (CSM transparency, CCP accountability, adding content to the document itself)

On the process: CSM's stakeholder status is clearly in name only and least until DUST and Incarna are released. The next test of it will be if CCP actually includes them, their at that time 3+ year backlog, and their feedback on those releases properly once those major products have cleared the pipe. Never the less, CSM does provide some valuble services to the community, not in the least getting more dev blogs out about things important to us and being able to provide quality feedback of opportunity like pointing the devs to the fleet interface for lag reduction (CSM4) and the 100k skillpoint reimbursement (CSM5) among many other instances.

And finally, I find it to continue to be funny that CCP knows it has a forum problem (in that it feels like it was made in the 1990's) but refuses to fix it. This is, of course, despite their quantity-of-excellence-dev-budget and the fact that there are several FREE forums that are unbelievably better than the current one.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:11:00 - [37]
 

Hrm.

The CSM was made up of members who were, with one exception, quality representatives dedicated to their constituents and improving the game. Hopefully recent events will allow the CSM to refocus on getting **** done without impact from one member's personality disorder. Because, honestly, we really, really need something like that now.
CCP has steadily been harming the game over the last short while, from breaking fleet combat with Dominion to churning out a slew of half-baked releases that are never touched again. They seem to, well, simply not get it.

Rational folks don't expect miracles from the CSM, and we understand that you'll be shut down and handwaved away as long as CCP is determined to behave in such a manner. We accept that and won't fault you for it. But we do expect that you'll take the opportunity that CCP has given you and keep hammering into the breach until the CSM really has enough heft to make sure that CCP understands that a "commitment to excellence" doesn't mean "commitment to releasing lots of broken crap". EVE is currently running on the Chinese industry model, and someone has to be there to point out that maybe cutting corners isn't worth it in the long run.

The CSM has their work cut out for 'em, and it may take this entire term plus several others, but something has to be done. Best of luck to the CSM, because they'll need it.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:33:00 - [38]
 

Hooray! I am reading them right now. Here are some things of interest (to me):

Originally by: Minutes
The CSM inquired about CCP’s definition of the “stakeholder” [...] it was the status of having the right to submit design requests to the official game design process and having it evaluated [...]
This is disappointing because this is very little benefit over people putting together proposals and posting them into the Ideas and Features forum, other than forcing a response from CCP. Of course I don't expect CCP to hand CSM the ability to change anything at a whim - it's CCP's product - but at the same time it's very disappointing.

Originally by: Minutes
The CSM would like the prioritization of the backlog—particularly CSM-raised issues--to be visible to everyone.
This, however, would be really nice IF the items in the backlog actually get development time. How often are items in the backlog worked on? If the backlog was made available, would it be possible to see which items are being actively developed? That would be really great.

Originally by: Minutes
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isn’t committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.
While I can see Nathan's point here, I disagree. It isn't Excellence when features are released buggy and fell unfinished, and then left to linger. I would rather have fewer features added each expansion and have the time spent on polish and maintenance. Eve is a great game, but when you hear about features that have been broken and unfinished for YEARS it's disheartening.

Originally by: Minutes
Magnetometric exploration sites are so much less valuable than Radar and Ladar sites [...] The content team stated that they intend to rebalance that but could not give a definite timetable for it.
This is GREAT news to me, as I do low sec exploration quite a bit. Even if there isn't a definite schedule for this kind of thing, knowing that they're already aware of the issue and intend on fixing it is a good thing.

Originally by: Minutes
[...] the current PI is not the end product [...] CCP devs present agreed that [competition] was in the spirit of EVE and that they would look for opportunities to incorporate it [...]
Also excellent. To be honest, PI doesn't thrill me at all, but I do dabble and I'm hoping that it is improved upon. The dedicated resources are good as well, though I do wonder about priorities - why isn't there a dedicated FW resource or Backlog resource, for example? I know PI will be linked to Dust, but...

Originally by: Minutes
Action Point: Incarna “State of the Situation” dev blog.
Yes, yes, yes. The Eve dev blogs are one of my favorite things because it gives us a lot of great information about what is going on behind the scenes and they're almost always interesting.

Originally by: Minutes
[...] they are still banning RMT-ers, banning at least 1000 accounts a month.
Woohoo! Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy Go get 'em!

Originally by: Minutes
A specific Low Sec expansion is not on the 18 month plan; however CCP is looking into a combat expansion [...]
And this helps low-sec become unique, interesting, and desirable how? Knowing that there's no plans at all for Low Sec for over a year and a half is extremely disappointing to me. There is so much potential here, so many great ideas, low sec is a large part of Eve territory-wise, and there's no interest?

Crying or Very sad

Originally by: Minutes
CSM was urged to put together a Low Sec foundation story with essential elements defined, then submit it as a proposal for future consideration.
Well, let's get crankin'. Any information on how you guys would like to go about doing this, and how the community will be involved?

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Well, let's get crankin'. Any information on how you guys would like to go about doing this, and how the community will be involved?


Did you miss the part where they said "we're not fixing anything for the next 18 months minimum, and lowsec not for the nexrt 2-3 expansions" ?

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:52:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Minutes
CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust. The CSM is very unhappy with this and urged CCP to at least fix trivial issues which have a major impact on the player experience.
This really irks me. There's a lot of problems with FW. Fixing even some of the minor issues would be a huge boon. FW is a fantastic feature for all the reasons mentioned and I know that I had a heavy interest in FW (Amarr Victor, Minmatards! Wink) - until I experienced how broken it was.

THIS is the kind of thing that makes the player base question CCP's commitment to excellence.

Originally by: Minutes
Action Point: CCP will publish a dev blog on MMO scaling issues.
Hell yes! I'm really looking forward to this one! Very Happy The tech dev blogs are the BEST of them all - I always learn something.

Originally by: Minutes
The CSM asked about CCP’s plans to incorporate emerging interaction technologies like touchpads [...] CCP stated that at this time there is no plan to evolve [...] in that direction.
And I agree with them on this. I don't see why it would be worth their time to work on something that a very small minority of the player base would be using.

Originally by: Minutes
CCP stated it is currently designing a new font.
Yay! Cheer! Victory! Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy Looking forward to this!

Originally by: Minutes
CCP stated that there have been several reprioritizations of role management and reviews of them.
This is great, but I wasn't sure if this meant that roles were going to be revamped any time soon or what it may look like. Can you provide more details? A new role system is something I have wanted for a long, long, long time and it would benefit EVERY corporation in Eve equally.

Originally by: Minutes
Some CSM members feel that CCP should focus more on the core game play of EVE that is spaceships. They feel that while other features such as PI and FW can be cool, CCP should consider the accumulating impacts of every expansion on the balance of EVE’s core game play.
Eve is more than space ships though. It is the market, it is production, it is social networking, it is crime and punishment. Space ships are a big part of Eve, yes, but not the only part. It seems that CCP's Big Vision is a Universe Simulation Game. Someone has a bigger vision here and I think it's cool and has a LOT of potential - if it is released and polished and not neglected.

Originally by: Minutes
Improve POS missile batteries.
But I LIKE tanking multiple torpedo batteries in my stealth bomber...

Originally by: Minutes
The CSM Chairwoman stated she would be publicly tracking the status of CCP’s deliverables so that the player base would remain informed about progress in getting these items from CCP.
Also great.

Overall, I hope that CCP and Nathan in particular don't feel like we're attacking them and trying to put them down. As players, we put a lot of time and effort into Eve and we care about it. We just want it to be as best as it can be.

Thanks for the Minutes!

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:57:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Well, let's get crankin'. Any information on how you guys would like to go about doing this, and how the community will be involved?
Did you miss the part where they said "we're not fixing anything for the next 18 months minimum, and lowsec not for the nexrt 2-3 expansions" ?
No, I didn't. I also didn't miss the part where CCP asked the CSM to start putting something together now, implying that the proposal will get some attention once they have their current priorities finished. CCP wouldn't have asked the CSM to do something if they weren't even mildly interested in the results:

Originally by: Minutes
CSM was urged to put together a Low Sec foundation story with essential elements defined, then submit it as a proposal for future consideration.
Just because they don't have time now doesn't mean that we should just throw up our arms and give up - but perhaps I'm just not quite so focused on defeat and cynicism.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.13 01:08:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 13/07/2010 01:12:41
Quote:

Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isn’t committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.

The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction.



http://www.ruderfinn.co.uk/blogs/dotcom/files/2009/06/enviromental-head-in-the-sand.jpg

So they're fine if we all stop playing until after they pull their head outta the sand?

Exodus from Eve anyone?

Hilmar wake and fix your company before we all leave you.

No we won't wait another 2 years to have the last 2 years of code bug fixed.

New customers account for more revenue then old?
How many new customers do you think you'll attract with no customers at all?


Originally by: Andrea Griffin

Just because they don't have time now doesn't mean that we should just throw up our arms and give up - but perhaps I'm just not quite so focused on defeat and cynicism.




They've miss-calculated how long people will wait while they go off on a tangent to develop other games.

The defeat and cynicism from the CSM is directly proportional to their understanding that Eve is on the crux of a fail cascade.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:30:00 - [43]
 

All you guys are so selfish, the players always whine but CCP tries its hardest to keep everybody happy, and they have a clear view of their prioritieeaahaha I'm just screwing with you they've got their heads up their ass.

It's going to be a long couple of years.

Elsymir Crystalblood
Posted - 2010.07.13 03:15:00 - [44]
 

These minutes are a fine example of basic economics.

When you possess a monopoly on the supply of a product (in this case, internet spaceship MMOs), you are allowed to do as you please without risking significant changes in the level of demand you're faced with.

One can only hope another internet spaceship MMO of sufficient quality makes an appearance on the market soon, if only to give CCP the kick in the ass they so sorely require.

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.07.13 03:51:00 - [45]
 

Dust 514 what a Joke. A shooter that will be played for a few weeks then never played again. CCP expects a fly by night consle game to be a permanent feature of eve online? I dont think so.

CeneUJiti
Posted - 2010.07.13 07:55:00 - [46]
 

I'm amazed at how little player reaction is to this scandalous results. OK, maybe the economists and marketing people are telling them that $100 invested in new features and commercials gives them far more customers than fixing crippling bugs and issues, but even if that was true, if they abandon EVE for 18 months (which they wont, they wont fix anything but they will shove in new features that no one wants and will also be abandoned and broken) that "EVE is dying" joke might stop being a joke.

And what other MMOs does that "$100 invested there does that" analysis? From pretty much polished and bug free WOW? Where any major bug is fixed in a couple of months at worst? I don't think all that talk about "how much money invested into new shines and commercials you need to retain customers over 18-22 month period" can come from all the other MMOs that died in fire long before they were a year and a half old.

I honestly believe that "lifycycle" of EVE player is much longer than average generic MMO, simply because you need first 6-9 months of skill learning to get into most basic stuff. And if someone has been stubborn to keep in game that long, he wont quite in next 6-10 months. And second, EVE spreads a lot by word of mouth.


If CCP stays true to their word and abandons EVE for next 18 months it will be horrible. If they continue piling new features without fixing anything, it will be much worse, as 18 months from now we will have several new features that need dev attention and that have introduced dozens of new bugs and performance issues upon servers.

While we as EVE players can't influence CCP a least bit about Dust as its separate game for a completely different platform, we must take a strong voice and demand Incarna do be delayed indefinitely until at least some of current major issues with EVE are fixed.

LowSec situation was iffy for years and new probing system was pretty much a nail in the coffin.

FW was bugged and broken from the start, it has been 2 years now, and CCP tells us we need to wait at least 2 more for anything to be fixed there?! :(

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:24:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: CeneUJiti
If CCP stays true to their word and abandons EVE for next 18 months it will be horrible. If they continue piling new features without fixing anything, it will be much worse, as 18 months from now we will have several new features that need dev attention and that have introduced dozens of new bugs and performance issues upon servers.

While we as EVE players can't influence CCP a least bit about Dust as its separate game for a completely different platform, we must take a strong voice and demand Incarna do be delayed indefinitely until at least some of current major issues with EVE are fixed.

LowSec situation was iffy for years and new probing system was pretty much a nail in the coffin.

FW was bugged and broken from the start, it has been 2 years now, and CCP tells us we need to wait at least 2 more for anything to be fixed there?! :(


Did you even read the minutes?

CeneUJiti
Posted - 2010.07.13 11:04:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Svarty II
Originally by: CeneUJiti
If CCP stays true to their word and abandons EVE for next 18 months it will be horrible. If they continue piling new features without fixing anything, it will be much worse, as 18 months from now we will have several new features that need dev attention and that have introduced dozens of new bugs and performance issues upon servers.

While we as EVE players can't influence CCP a least bit about Dust as its separate game for a completely different platform, we must take a strong voice and demand Incarna do be delayed indefinitely until at least some of current major issues with EVE are fixed.

LowSec situation was iffy for years and new probing system was pretty much a nail in the coffin.

FW was bugged and broken from the start, it has been 2 years now, and CCP tells us we need to wait at least 2 more for anything to be fixed there?! :(


Did you even read the minutes?


Yes I have.

And in them I read that CCP rejected every CSM proposal and dismissed every CSM concern. That they said that they will do no work on lowsec or FW in next 18 moths. That UI change is too difficult and also cant be done in that timeframe. That even CCP forming a small team that will fix a minor bug or two every moths is impossible with CCPs allocation of resources until Incarna and Dust are shipped.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.13 11:14:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Svarty II
Did you even read the minutes?


Did you? Where exactly are you disagreeing with him?

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2010.07.13 12:21:00 - [50]
 

It must have been a tense affair once the CSM heard that the next 18 months or so of dev time is already accounted for it could very well mean that CSM 5 and 6 achieve nothing but making CCP aware of things they already know about and have already decided on whether to ignore it, develop it or scrap it altogether and of course the time line on which it all happens.

If it wasn't tense I would feel done in, from that comment alone no matter how much time, energy and valid points the CSM brings to the table it won't change CCP's attitude and their agenda. Less than 10% of accounts voted in the CSM 5 project, if it stands true of not fixing the fixable in the next two/three updates that figure will be actually lower, assuming the account numbers are relative.

END OF WHINE

Now for the good bit, the positive.

What should CSM 5 be focusing on this term?

CSM 5, has to focus on bringing CCP to task on it's "Commitment of Excellence" programme, and ensuring the Dev blogs and action points are completed, why there are more action points that the CSM has to carry out I'm not sure of, but of course they should be done in as timely a matter as possible.

To save time at the meetings don't discuss ANY game mechanic changes for the rest of the year, it's evident that CCP has their own schedule and the CSM didn't get a look in, rather bring them an overview of what the players believe the CSM SHOULD be, and how it can obtain it's own sprint team for backlog issues and future items that can bring measurable items within the CSM cyle or of course 6 months in to the CSM after

With the backlog as big as it is, please don't let CCP "forget" to provide all that you asked for in terms of accountability and progress updates.

tl:dr - if you play eve, you should be used to reading long passages of text, or do you grind missions for the isk/lp/standings/loot?


Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.13 14:36:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Sidrat Flush
sLess than 10% of accounts voted in the CSM 5 projects

Get your facts straight.

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:01:00 - [52]
 

12.67% voted. Ok that is over 10%. a little Rolling Eyes

Riflin' Betty
Perfunctory
Posted - 2010.07.13 16:16:00 - [53]
 

Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.

ThisIsNotMyAlt
Posted - 2010.07.13 16:28:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.


did you really fall for that ? haha niceVery Happy

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.13 16:53:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.


Isn't Scrapheap owned by a CCP dev?

Riflin' Betty
Perfunctory
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:00:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.


did you really fall for that ? haha niceVery Happy


Nope, but you just fell for my trap quite well. We know who you are now.


Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:01:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.


did you really fall for that ? haha niceVery Happy


hello employee, time to reskin, and learn a thing or two about entrapments :P

DogSlime
Caldari
Wilde Cards
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:01:00 - [58]
 

Look at it this way - CCP will resume work on lowsec, lag, UI, bugs and Faction Warfare etc when they've finished the other games they're working on at the moment.

That's only 12 to 18 months away (assuming they release on time). You only need to give them a few more hundred of whatever currency you use to pay your subscription, and they'll start working on your concerns.

They won't take the money and run. They won't just start work on the NEXT game after DUST/World of Darkness. They'll finally sit down and make EVE work properly. You won't have spent years WAITING and PAYING for a promised-land that was perpetually over-the-horizon.

Trust them. They've never let us down before.

Razz

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:12:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I am *SO TEMPTED* to offer to work on Eve *for free* in my spare time. But I don't know that I want to work on a MMO that seems determined to wallow in pig **** until it dies a diseased husk. Why is CCP so determined to fail?


Oh, please, you think they'd let you touch their baby? By all accounts, they don't let actual devs work on the game in their free time.

Riflin' Betty
Perfunctory
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:21:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I am *SO TEMPTED* to offer to work on Eve *for free* in my spare time. But I don't know that I want to work on a MMO that seems determined to wallow in pig **** until it dies a diseased husk. Why is CCP so determined to fail?


Oh, please, you think they'd let you touch their baby? By all accounts, they don't let actual devs work on the game in their free time.


Herschel, by all accounts from the CSM, they don't even let the Devs work on EVE in their paid time. not until they finish the dual abortions that are dust and incarna.



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