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Walayden Obsidia
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:04:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
note that PLEX neither has real money value attached. you can't legally sell PLEX for money, same way you can't legally sell non-PLEX items for money. same way, their ISK value is what players are willing to pay.

You're not wrong, but this is what I meant about perception. It's impossible to argue that one position is right and the other is wrong, because what we're dealing with is the intangible 'what is this worth?'.

The PLEX was worth something in real currency at one point. The same cannot be said for any virtual made items on the server. It thus has an associated value, in the same way that today $1 has an associated value of 66 UK pence. Nobody defined that except as the collective perception of a lot of people trading it.

Bear in mind that currency is effectively a sophisticated barter system, and the idea that somewhere along the lines the barter is allowed to become 'and you give me that, and I'll give you nothing' doesn't fit that well. In the real world, done directly between two individuals who agreed something different, that is called fraud - so I can understand and empathise with those attaching real monetary value to PLEXes and expressing some concern.


Your last paragraph doesn't present a good example, because the trade isn't "you give me that, and I'll give you nothing." It is "you give me that, and I'll give you this, and you have the ability to risk destroying it, at your discretion". It's like when you order a burger, then after the burger is delivered to you, you accidentally drop it in a toilet. The fact that you can no longer use what you bought does not change the fact that what you bought, was in fact delivered to you.

When someone buys a G/ETC, the purchase agreement is that for the buyer's money, the seller gives someone the right to play the game for another month. The seller then voluntarily converts this "right to play" IRL into a commodity in-game. When the buyer does this, they accept that they are giving up their "right to play for a month" and getting in return an in-game item that the player base has now been informed can be destroyed. Because the player base knows everything they need to know, in order to make a rational decision, CCP is not responsible for the ramifications of the decision the player makes.

Consider this analogy: You are in my house, and I tell you "if you sit on my couch, there is a chance that I'll slap you across the face", and you agree to these terms, and then sit on my couch, you have no basis for complaint if I do, in fact, slap you in the face.

Or this one: You buy a physical GTC and then throw it into a container that you know could contain a substance that would destroy it. If the card does in fact get destroyed, you have no basis for complaint.

Because every action regarding G/ETC's and PLEX's are entirely voluntary on the part of the buyer/player, and the buyer/player has complete information, there is no basis for anyone to complain.

Yamato Gasaraki
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:07:00 - [152]
 

I wonder, can you still use it from anywhere in the galaxy from your assets?

Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:08:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Walayden Obsidia
It's like when you order a burger, then after the burger is delivered to you, you accidentally drop it in a toilet. The fact that you can no longer use what you bought does not change the fact that what you bought, was in fact delivered to you.


So in this example, CCP is like McDonald's saying, "You are now allowed to eat your burgers in the bathroom."

Some Advisor
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:10:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Some Advisor on 09/07/2010 20:10:42
Originally by: Yamato Gasaraki
I wonder, can you still use it from anywhere in the galaxy from your assets?


yes

but of course you could have found it out yourself when you would actually READ *THIS* thread from the beginning. it was said twice or three times ^^

Mortis Aguila
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:28:00 - [155]
 

Should be entertaining to see how orgasmically happy you make the RL criminal element with this change.

Cain m
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:40:00 - [156]
 

In all honesty, Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) should never pop when their containing ship is destroyed. Keeping PLEX from being destroyed could decrease the demand of PLEX while not lowering the price. The average player on the receiving end of a dropped PLEX is significantly less likely to buy an ETC/GTC/PLEX from CCP than an empire carebear, and as such a change would not affect CCP's profits in any significant way. However, having dropped or not is unlikely to have an affect on the player who was killed. Either they would accept the loss, or they would buy another one. One thing that would have a significant effect from this proposed change is the possible decreased demand of PLEX. This would likely decrease the price of PLEX, increasing the money one would spend for a set amount of ISK. This could also stimulate the PLEX economy, by lowering prices. This effect would function similarly to Wal-Mart or one of the GOP's tax cuts (lacking the corrupted and generally ****ed-over parts stuck in by senators to favor the companies that will hire them after they leave office). Of course could all happen without the change, but much less so.

- Stuff
YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!

Kenz Rider
J Club
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:40:00 - [157]
 

Most buyers of plex are pretty sophisticated so I think they'll know what they are getting into.

Most sellers of plex are probably wise enough to create the item where they intend to sell it. Doing it any other way would probably take more thought.

People moving PLEX during the first couple weeks could be interesting.

I don't think this will change pricing discrepancies between areas. There is already a strong incentive to create the item where it is highest priced. Most regular buyers and sellers of PLEX are smart enough to have an alt for that job permanently in 4-4.

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:49:00 - [158]
 

It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

You buy a GTC. This is now your 'property'. You own the code and can redeem it for play time, sell it for ISK on the forums, give it to a friend, sell it for cash somewhere or redeem it for PLEX.

If you redeem it for 2xPLEX these are now in game items and become the property of CCP, they can be scammed, traded, trashed and very soon popped by nefarious pirates/gankers/psychotic virgins. Whatever happens to it once you turn it into that little golden ticket, it belongs to CCP.

Simples.

Allus Nova
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:56:00 - [159]
 

One suggestion I would make is to provide a popup warning when someone tries to leave a station with a Plex in tow, nothing super intrusive, just a box to click Yes or Cancel to.



Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:00:00 - [160]
 

I am LOL at the people whining that CCP might *gasp* sell a plex they don't have to honor because it died in a spaceship fire, making them greedy nefarious bastards.

Newsflash: CCP is in Iceland. Iceland, loosely speaking, is a nation of hardscrabble North Sea fishermen, descended from Vikings and pirates and, uh, traders, yes, let's call them traders shan't we?

It neither surprises nor bothers me that CCP has instituted a feature by which they can sell an ingame item that is capable of going kaboomski before the dollars or Euros have even had time to be banked. Indeed, I view it as a sort of performance art, a sort that makes me chortle. Note that CCP's stated reason for doing this is grounded in aesthetics. Looking at the game as a whole, I believe them 100%. It probably bothered them to have carebear fluffy bunny bumpers on the plex items. I understand how it could have.

Yarr! YARRRR!!

egegergergsdgedgege
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:12:00 - [161]
 

If a PLEX is only an ingame item that has no real value irl what would you say if CCP did choose to remove that item from the game by just deleting every PLEX?

Simon Victor
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:21:00 - [162]
 

I think it's a great change. They're absolutely right in saying that PLEX shouldn't be treated differently from other items. Sure, we'll all be ****ed if we lose a PLEX to gankers or something, but that's the case with anything we lose in-game. I don't see any argument against this "losing RL money in-game" to be a legal risk for CCP either. For one, you're not losing RL money in the game... You're losing an item that you bought with RL money. Move your PLEX at your own risk, and I think this will be an even bigger in-game trade commodity than it has been.

Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:23:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege
If a PLEX is only an ingame item that has no real value irl what would you say if CCP did choose to remove that item from the game by just deleting every PLEX?


That's kind of a dumb question.
What do you think people would say if they decided they didn't like Battleships and deleted every one from the game? People would be ****ed, obviously. That doesn't mean you can sell a battleship for RL cash, just like you can't sell a PLEX for RL cash.

Death Stab
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:25:00 - [164]
 

Changes to PLEX don't matter - you can activate PLEX from a distance :) So there is no need to put it in a cargohold.

Toldain
Gallente
Skyforger
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:29:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Marlenus


It neither surprises nor bothers me that CCP has instituted a feature by which they can sell an ingame item that is capable of going kaboomski before the dollars or Euros have even had time to be banked. Indeed, I view it as a sort of performance art, a sort that makes me chortle. Note that CCP's stated reason for doing this is grounded in aesthetics. Looking at the game as a whole, I believe them 100%. It probably bothered them to have carebear fluffy bunny bumpers on the plex items. I understand how it could have.

Yarr! YARRRR!!


There's in fact a long-standing retail construct that has a very similar pattern: the gift certificate. Something like half of them are never redeemed, making them highly profitable. And if someone steals your gift certificate from Target, nobody expects Target to make good on it.

Denzien Omega
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:32:00 - [166]
 

ok so they're adding mobility to the plex...no big deal...doesnt mean you cant use it the same way you used to...sounds good to me...just dont leave station with it.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:37:00 - [167]
 


Ok...

So CCP, you want to remove the "special status" that players gave to Plexes. Well, I don't care. But as long than Plexes are the ONLY item who can be bought using real money to a GTC in this game, and also the only one who can be "redeemed", they will KEEP their "special status", whatever you do.

Live with it.

But apparently, it is more interesting than expected... After all, you successed to find maybe like one hour to (try to) change the "special status" of an item, and write a dev blog about it. But YOU STILL FAIL TO FIND FIVE FRAKKING MINUTES TO CORRECT ROCKETS who are screwed since 22 MONTHS ?

Are you just stubborn to refuse to correct them, or dumb to prefer to change secondary stuff only for the sake of change ?

Some Advisor
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:43:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Sky Marshal

But YOU STILL FAIL TO FIND FIVE FRAKKING MINUTES TO CORRECT ROCKETS who are screwed since 22 MONTHS ?



i see you have no clue (like most capslock whiners)

give us your insight how that 5 min rocket fix would be made?

"just add the right codes" ? " just fix it?"

there are *ALOT* of variables involved with that sort of stuff, its not a 5 min thing

Live with it

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:45:00 - [169]
 

I didn't read the entire thread.

I wonder (read: speculate) if this change in status is driven in any way by tax concerns.

PLEX's prior "special" treatment, and its intimate connection to real cash, might tempt a government entity to consider the transfer of a PLEX as a sale of goods/services, and thus a taxable event.

By making PLEX behave like all other items in game, CCP has certainly bolstered what I assume is their position: That the only 'sale' of any service is the initial purchase of the PLEX.

Naked speculation, admittedly. But its an interesting cutting-edge area of taxation and tax law.

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:45:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 09/07/2010 21:46:32
Originally by: Sky Marshal

Ok...

So CCP, you want to remove the "special status" that players gave to Plexes. Well, I don't care. But as long than Plexes are the ONLY item who can be bought using real money to a GTC in this game, and also the only one who can be "redeemed", they will KEEP their "special status", whatever you do.

Live with it.

But apparently, it is more interesting than expected... After all, you successed to find maybe like one hour to (try to) change the "special status" of an item, and write a dev blog about it. But YOU STILL FAIL TO FIND FIVE FRAKKING MINUTES TO CORRECT ROCKETS who are screwed since 22 MONTHS ?

Are you just stubborn to refuse to correct them, or dumb to prefer to change secondary stuff only for the sake of change ?


Hi, you must be new here. There's a lot more to balancing rockets than tweaking some stats and hoping for the best... Substantially more time than 5 minutes it will take. I suggest you:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Matalino
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:49:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Some Advisor
Originally by: Sky Marshal

But YOU STILL FAIL TO FIND FIVE FRAKKING MINUTES TO CORRECT ROCKETS who are screwed since 22 MONTHS ?



i see you have no clue (like most capslock whiners)

give us your insight how that 5 min rocket fix would be made?

"just add the right codes" ? " just fix it?"

there are *ALOT* of variables involved with that sort of stuff, its not a 5 min thing

Live with it

I am sure that the five minute fix to missiles that he was hoping for was something like:


if (target.Name != "Sky Marshall")
{
target.Destroy();
}


After all, isn't that the standard fix suggested by capslock whiners.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:54:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 09/07/2010 22:09:12

Originally by: Some Advisor
there are *ALOT* of variables involved with that sort of stuff, its not a 5 min thing

Live with it



Sure, but if you read sometimes the Test Server Feedback forum, you can find a long topic about all suggestions on the rocket problem, who is upped as much as possible.

CCP can just use it. Even without that, 22 months should be enough...

And for Matalino, you made a dev error. It is Sky Marshal with ONLY one L. It will not be efficient Laughing

Suntzu88
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.07.09 22:07:00 - [173]
 

"If you blow up a ship that happens to be carrying PLEX, it may drop the PLEX as loot or it may be destroyed in the conflagration (much like any other item in a ship's cargo hold). The refund policies for PLEX will not be any different from any other item." I believe you should almost ALWAYS get the plex from someone you blow up. Its a card for goodness sake, i believe there should be only a 1% chance that a plex is lost due to ship explosion. In other words, if you gank me and im flying a plex somewhere, 99% of the time that plex will be in my loot. It isnt fair to players in general if nobody gets the plex at all when a ship is lost carrying one. They aren't the most expensive items in game but they are very valuable little cards, make them indestructible at very least!

Jason W0rthing
Posted - 2010.07.09 22:17:00 - [174]
 

I squealed with glee when I read this dev blog. I always wondered why the special restrictions on plex were in place. Not that I'd ever be stupid enough to undock with one in my hold anyway. Rolling Eyes

Oftherocks
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
Posted - 2010.07.09 22:57:00 - [175]
 

I can only assume you have too many interns, 'cause this is just asking for a ton of stupid petitions for no real reason.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being brilliant and 10 being total stupidity, you have scored an impressive 472!

Sniffy McJiggles
Posted - 2010.07.09 22:58:00 - [176]
 

It makes little difference to me..But, why are you even concerned with this. With all thats going on within eve you take the time to fool around with the way plexes have "special item" status.. Post your priority list so we can all have a good chuckle.

Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
Posted - 2010.07.09 23:13:00 - [177]
 

No tl;dr?

How about: "We're removing the restrictions on Plexes and making them the same as other trade goods."

Joe Censored
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Frater Adhuc Excessum
Posted - 2010.07.09 23:13:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Cain m
In all honesty, Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) should never pop when their containing ship is destroyed. Keeping PLEX from being destroyed could decrease the demand of PLEX while not lowering the price. The average player on the receiving end of a dropped PLEX is significantly less likely to buy an ETC/GTC/PLEX from CCP than an empire carebear, and as such a change would not affect CCP's profits in any significant way. However, having dropped or not is unlikely to have an affect on the player who was killed. Either they would accept the loss, or they would buy another one. One thing that would have a significant effect from this proposed change is the possible decreased demand of PLEX. This would likely decrease the price of PLEX, increasing the money one would spend for a set amount of ISK. This could also stimulate the PLEX economy, by lowering prices. This effect would function similarly to Wal-Mart or one of the GOP's tax cuts (lacking the corrupted and generally ****ed-over parts stuck in by senators to favor the companies that will hire them after they leave office). Of course could all happen without the change, but much less so.

- Stuff
YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!YARRRR!!



I'm not sure I agree with this. First of all this change is going to result in some number of PLEX's being destroyed on a regular basis (they aren't going to make any item immune to destruction but movable in a ship, that's just stupid to suggest). This by itself decreases supply of PLEX relative to demand so would put upward pressure on isk cost per PLEX. The higher isk value of PLEX then promotes more purchases of PLEX/GTC's with USD, which means CCP make $$$ off the lost PLEX and more $$$ off the increased demand for PLEX using RL money.

glas mir
Reaction Scientific
Posted - 2010.07.09 23:15:00 - [179]
 

It should have been this way since the introduction of the "item"

Also too many simpletons and trolls itt.

Joe Censored
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Frater Adhuc Excessum
Posted - 2010.07.09 23:19:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
But YOU STILL FAIL TO FIND FIVE FRAKKING MINUTES TO CORRECT ROCKETS who are screwed since 22 MONTHS ?


LOL, you think anyone cares about rockets? :p Leave rockets broken, I want plex lootz!


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