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FDIC Agent
Posted - 2010.07.09 15:08:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Resigning would be the easy way out...but (imho) would have zero impact on CCP or the CSM process.


Apparently being in the CSM has zero impact on CCP or the CSM process too. Laughing

Originally by: Mynxee
Plus it would remove the the ability to report on matters from an inside perspective--which is vital to keeping players informed about realities of the CSM process.


HA! Too funny. The only thing the CSM tells the player base is one of three things:

1. Useless filler information that is of no importance or stuff we already know.

2. Some information about improvements that never happen.

3. Teases of knowing some inside information just to throw out the NDA in our face like some elitist pig.

Originally by: Mynxee
Besides...I am still hopeful that CSM5 can accomplish something useful (even if that something turns out to be very different from our "party line" charter).


The entire gaming community is waiting for the day the CSM accomplishes something useful. That day, from the looks of the way things are going will never come.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.09 15:11:00 - [32]
 

Mynxee
You should only have to send your revisions 1 time. If they post without the revisions you can create a thread about what they left out or mistated. Just because you let them publish the minutes without undue delay does not mean you agree they are complete or accurate.

Don't let them drag this out because no one will care about what happened 6 months ago.

Cortante
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:26:00 - [33]
 

Things that the money used on the CSM could be better used for:

- Bringing back EVE TV
- Redesigning and upgrading the forums
- Putting together more random polls and surveys of the actual EVE playerbase
- Improving the EVE store or adding more items to it
- Adding more to live events
- Improving the awful EVE correspondents reports
- Basically, anything else that would actually benefit far more players. You could take the budget for the CSM and buy each dev at CCP a bunch of cheetos bags and you'd be using the money in a better way for the people who pay for this game.

The CSM is a total social butterfly idiot-fest. Look at this thread, people don't vote because they give a damn or think the CSM actually does ANYTHING... but because of alliance favors and requests so they can get inside information. It's why you see the same old people being elected each cycle from the big alliances, so that they can get insider information about upcoming changes to the game and prepare for them early and so a few of them can get free trips to Iceland. They don't do any work, they don't have new ideas, it's the same old people getting the same old advantages.

The CSM is imbalancing, impotent and idiotic. Get rid of it! Put the resources to something else that actually benefits the playerbase.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:33:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Cortante
Things that the money used on the CSM could be better used for:

- Bringing back EVE TV
- Redesigning and upgrading the forums
- Putting together more random polls and surveys of the actual EVE playerbase
- Improving the EVE store or adding more items to it
- Adding more to live events
- Improving the awful EVE correspondents reports
- Basically, anything else that would actually benefit far more players. You could take the budget for the CSM and buy each dev at CCP a bunch of cheetos bags and you'd be using the money in a better way for the people who pay for this game.

The CSM is a total social butterfly idiot-fest. Look at this thread, people don't vote because they give a damn or think the CSM actually does ANYTHING... but because of alliance favors and requests so they can get inside information. It's why you see the same old people being elected each cycle from the big alliances, so that they can get insider information about upcoming changes to the game and prepare for them early and so a few of them can get free trips to Iceland. They don't do any work, they don't have new ideas, it's the same old people getting the same old advantages.

The CSM is imbalancing, impotent and idiotic. Get rid of it! Put the resources to something else that actually benefits the playerbase.


If you were to work out the total cost for the CSM on yearly basis you would probably find it to be laughably low compared the costs associated with assigning a scrum team to any of your suggested activities.

Brutoraa
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:49:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Brutoraa on 09/07/2010 16:50:31
COMMUNITY=CSM=CCP?
The topic on the banned CSM member at another place is sadening to read. Trolling, hate-messages, pettiness and all. But heh, capsuleers are what they are in RL. Thats the beauty of this game. It mirrors RL to the bone.

Most saddening is CSM itself. Many members dive into the trolling themselves, some of them get censored by CCP moderators. Well, CCP good luck with this CSM!
Finally we can conclude CSM is a real off-spring of the capsuleers. Democracy does work! They focus on details, more details and more replies, are driven by emotional discontent, and focuse on petty-self interest. The larger picture that should be the mindset of any democratically elected representative is gone for-ever.

Question to CCP top brass: did'nt you as CCP ask for this yourself? Answer: Big yes. Sure you have the 'right' not to disclose reasons. But with this kind of community you brought it all in the forums yourself.

Cortante
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:57:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Cortante on 09/07/2010 16:58:48
Edited by: Cortante on 09/07/2010 16:56:45
Quote:
"If you were to work out the total cost for the CSM on yearly basis you would probably find it to be laughably low compared the costs associated with assigning a scrum team to any of your suggested activities."


The cost in time and effort on CCP's part in maintaining this pointlessness that you so stridently defend is equal to, or more than, most of the things mentioned on that list.

It is no surprise that you defend the CSM so much, considering that you and your alliance use it to prepare for future changes to the game. Hell, it's the only reason you run for it. You have about as much credibility defending the CSM as the fox does in guarding the henhouse.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.09 17:49:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 09/07/2010 17:51:15

Originally by: Cortante

The cost in time and effort on CCP's part in maintaining this pointlessness that you so stridently defend is equal to, or more than, most of the things mentioned on that list.



[Citation Needed]

*edit* I'll add an estimate of my own. Cost of the CSM: plane tickets, hotels, salary for the hours that Ptur and Eyj spend on it: 50k a year? Cost of running a scrum team for a year: well over a million.


Originally by: Cortante

It is no surprise that you defend the CSM so much, considering that you and your alliance use it to prepare for future changes to the game. Hell, it's the only reason you run for it. You have about as much credibility defending the CSM as the fox does in guarding the henhouse.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh

rootimus maximus
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:01:00 - [38]
 

When I read the OP I spent five minutes trying to find the thumbs up icon to show I supported his post. Then I realised I was in the wrong sub-forum for that. :)

Originally by: Tiny Montgomery
Time to disband the forums


I'd love to reply to that, but, quite properly, discussion of forum moderation isn't permitted.

I don't really know what I think of the CSM. I know it exists, but it doesn't affect my gaming in any way. As things stand, were I to give it any real thought I'd likely conclude that it's primarily a free trip to Iceland for a small group of people.

That said, the onus is firmly on CCP. If they want the CSM to be a PR exercise, then of course they're going to continue to ignore anything that's said.

Analogies are always iffy, but the best one I can think of for the current situation is when the monarch was the real power in England, and parliment was only called to nod their heads when the monarch wanted to raise taxes.

While CCP aren't using the CSM to the full potential can you really blame people for taking the free holiday? We all love free stuff.

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:23:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz


*edit* I'll add an estimate of my own. Cost of the CSM: plane tickets, hotels, salary for the hours that Ptur and Eyj spend on it: 50k a year? Cost of running a scrum team for a year: well over a million.




Fixing rockets could be done for 50k. Probably a lot less.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:27:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Darth Vapour
Originally by: Sokratesz


*edit* I'll add an estimate of my own. Cost of the CSM: plane tickets, hotels, salary for the hours that Ptur and Eyj spend on it: 50k a year? Cost of running a scrum team for a year: well over a million.




Fixing rockets could be done for 50k. Probably a lot less.


Well OK but you get the idea. Many of the larger features cost millions in development, running the CSM is a relatively minor expense.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:43:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Cortante
Things that the money used on the CSM could be better used for:

- Bringing back EVE TV
- Redesigning and upgrading the forums
- Putting together more random polls and surveys of the actual EVE playerbase
- Improving the EVE store or adding more items to it
- Adding more to live events
- Improving the awful EVE correspondents reports
- Basically, anything else that would actually benefit far more players. You could take the budget for the CSM and buy each dev at CCP a bunch of cheetos bags and you'd be using the money in a better way for the people who pay for this game.

The CSM is a total social butterfly idiot-fest. Look at this thread, people don't vote because they give a damn or think the CSM actually does ANYTHING... but because of alliance favors and requests so they can get inside information. It's why you see the same old people being elected each cycle from the big alliances, so that they can get insider information about upcoming changes to the game and prepare for them early and so a few of them can get free trips to Iceland. They don't do any work, they don't have new ideas, it's the same old people getting the same old advantages.

The CSM is imbalancing, impotent and idiotic. Get rid of it! Put the resources to something else that actually benefits the playerbase.


If you were to work out the total cost for the CSM on yearly basis you would probably find it to be laughably low compared the costs associated with assigning a scrum team to any of your suggested activities.



Im not saying that the pr from csm is not worth it for ccp. It might be it might not I mind my business they can mind theirs. But as far as cost any of the ideas above could be outsourced and cost less than this csm stuff.

Dont forget that ccp employees do take time to deal with csm so its not just the cost of plane tickets and hotels. They need to practice the sincere looks they give you when they do their best Billy Clinton imitation and say I feel your pain.

It seems you guys are still going for that line. This is kind of sad. After 4 years of that same routine I would think you would have the devs resorting to saying things like It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. CSM has a long way to go. But good luck to you.

Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:11:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
One member of the CSM was acting out, and she's the one that's been removed. The rest of them are doing an excellent job.


Sez who? Seriously, what exactly has been accomplished, and what new inroads into CCP company/playerbase relations have been created? The job of CSM is to bring playerbase concerns to CCP; once that's done, then what? It's up to CCP to decide what's best for their business plan, and not a bunch of players incapable of either a) cooperating in an adult manner or b) sticking to participation agreements they agreed to (ie, the NDA issue). CSM can't and won't change CCP development direction, and as I've read from the minutes the "player representatives" (ie, Ankh) have their own agendas. So now what?

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.09 20:14:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Mynxee
You should only have to send your revisions 1 time. If they post without the revisions you can create a thread about what they left out or mistated. Just because you let them publish the minutes without undue delay does not mean you agree they are complete or accurate.

Don't let them drag this out because no one will care about what happened 6 months ago.


A 28 page document sometimes requires some back and forth collaboration. It's necessary that the official record of the meeting be accurate because threads are lost in the mists of time. Documents like Meeting Minutes, not so much.

In any event, I received CCP edits a couple of hours ago. Surprisingly few changes were made, so once I correlate CSM feedback this weekend, I can send a "CSM approved for publication" version (nlt Sunday). I believe CCP's goal is to get the Minutes out as early as possible next week...hopefully Monday.

Someone mentioned collaborating via Skype earlier in this thread. I had already suggested this to CCP but no traction on that front yet.


Global Comms
Posted - 2010.07.10 02:17:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Global Comms on 10/07/2010 02:22:56
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Cearain
Mynxee
You should only have to send your revisions 1 time. If they post without the revisions you can create a thread about what they left out or mistated. Just because you let them publish the minutes without undue delay does not mean you agree they are complete or accurate.

Don't let them drag this out because no one will care about what happened 6 months ago.


A 28 page document sometimes requires some back and forth collaboration. It's necessary that the official record of the meeting be accurate because threads are lost in the mists of time. Documents like Meeting Minutes, not so much.

In any event, I received CCP edits a couple of hours ago. Surprisingly few changes were made, so once I correlate CSM feedback this weekend, I can send a "CSM approved for publication" version (nlt Sunday). I believe CCP's goal is to get the Minutes out as early as possible next week...hopefully Monday.

Someone mentioned collaborating via Skype earlier in this thread. I had already suggested this to CCP but no traction on that front yet.




Just give it up. The CSM is a massive waste of time - demonstrabley so (300 issues outstanding and confirmation CCP are allocating no time to deal with them) - All your doing is adding to a big list of items CCP wont bother implementing for at least two - three years (if ever) whilst provind CCP some PR cover to wave at traditional media occasionaly.

Whilst your zealousness is to be applauded - The white elephant has bolted (to mix metaphores) - loooooong time ago. No mater how much effort you put in - the door aint worth shutting.

No one appreciates the work your doing - voters or CCP.

Persepoli
Posted - 2010.07.10 02:33:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Cearain
Mynxee
You should only have to send your revisions 1 time. If they post without the revisions you can create a thread about what they left out or mistated. Just because you let them publish the minutes without undue delay does not mean you agree they are complete or accurate.

Don't let them drag this out because no one will care about what happened 6 months ago.


A 28 page document sometimes requires some back and forth collaboration. It's necessary that the official record of the meeting be accurate because threads are lost in the mists of time. Documents like Meeting Minutes, not so much.

In any event, I received CCP edits a couple of hours ago. Surprisingly few changes were made, so once I correlate CSM feedback this weekend, I can send a "CSM approved for publication" version (nlt Sunday). I believe CCP's goal is to get the Minutes out as early as possible next week...hopefully Monday.

Someone mentioned collaborating via Skype earlier in this thread. I had already suggested this to CCP but no traction on that front yet.




And this 28 page document gets the player base what exactly? It'll get exactly the same as the other 28 page documents created in the past - a few folks will get all warm and fuzzy, the GM's will sit around and collectively go "well done, some good and valid points there", and then it gets filed away in a rubbish bin for the cleaners to take care of in the morning.

You may get lucky and hit on something that CCP was planning to release anyway, and bingo you get a credit against your names as having done something. But it's pretty much going to luck and not good work tbqh.

So kudos to you all for the hard work that has gone into this (and all the other) docs, I'm sure someone, somewhere may care.

Squat Hardpeck
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.07.10 02:36:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Squat Hardpeck on 10/07/2010 02:36:37
ITT: People thinking they know how to spend CCP's money better than CCP itself.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.10 03:17:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Squat Hardpeck

ITT: People thinking they know how to spend CCP's money better than CCP itself.


Yes, Yes they are. Like I could spend it on ice-cream instead of Eve.

Another failed expansion or 2 and we might all decide ice-cream is more valuable then Eve Online.

Terrigal
Posted - 2010.07.10 03:52:00 - [48]
 

What id like to see for the next CSM is for those elected to CSM6 take the free trip and upon return ALL promtly quit.

All you'd have to say to the EVE community we decided to take this action because eve players know nothing will be done nothing will be fixed or implemented by CCP. The eve community will aplaud you on this bold move.

Hey I might run on this platform for CSM6 hahaha.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:58:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Squat Hardpeck

ITT: People thinking they know how to spend CCP's money better than CCP itself.


Yes, Yes they are. Like I could spend it on ice-cream instead of Eve.

Another failed expansion or 2 and we might all decide ice-cream is more valuable then Eve Online.



Can I have your stuff when you (finally) leave?

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.10 09:52:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Camios on 10/07/2010 09:53:02
The people that want the CSM disbanded are just trolls.

First, CCP does not owe you anything. You pay for the game as it is, CCP does not owes you any change or fix.

Second, CCP decides to use the CSM as a mean to have structured feedback from the playerbase. Structuring feedback and prioritizing requests is the only thing that would give a somewhat accurate vision of the desires of the playerbase.

Then, you can decide to thank CCP for this, or STFU. This is, after all, their game.

All the forum whine cannot be seen as a coherent playerbase will, while the CSM goal is just to tell CCP what the playerbase wants in a coherent, structured, prioritized way. And I think they succeeded in this.

And last, to resume, the CSM is the only way players have to interact with CCP in a trustable way. Look at it as the least bad.
If you don't want the CSM, keep on complaining on the forums between troll threads, speculations, noobish or carebear cries and so on.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.10 09:54:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Camios
Edited by: Camios on 10/07/2010 09:53:02
The people that want the CSM disbanded are just trolls.

First, CCP does not owe you anything. You pay for the game as it is, CCP does not owes you any change or fix.

Second, CCP decides to use the CSM as a mean to have structured feedback from the playerbase. Structuring feedback and prioritizing requests is the only thing that would give a somewhat accurate vision of the desires of the playerbase.

Then, you can decide to thank CCP for this, or STFU. This is, after all, their game.

All the forum whine cannot be seen as a coherent playerbase will, while the CSM goal is just to tell CCP what the playerbase wants in a coherent, structured, prioritized way. And I think they succeeded in this.

And last, to resume, the CSM is the only way players have to interact with CCP in a trustable way. Look at it as the least bad.
If you don't want the CSM, keep on complaining on the forums between troll threads, speculations, noobish or carebear cries and so on.


Your perception of what these forums are for is clearly off. Please take your sense and reason elsewhere Sir.

Zathi Shaitan
Illiteracy Combatants
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:09:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

Your perception of what these forums are for is clearly off. Please take your sense and reason elsewhere Sir.


What a bold statement, from someone who said "cause does not matter, only consequence".

Stop waving that useless CSM badge and go harvest your plantation.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:33:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Zathi Shaitan
Originally by: Sokratesz

Your perception of what these forums are for is clearly off. Please take your sense and reason elsewhere Sir.


What a bold statement, from someone who said "cause does not matter, only consequence".

Stop waving that useless CSM badge and go harvest your plantation.


Now selling sarcasm detectors, starting at 29,99!

Azia Burgi
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.07.10 22:44:00 - [54]
 

The NDA hinders the operation of the CSM. For all the claims of transparency this is a major issue. Edited minutes only breed suspicion and distrust in the electorate.

The CSM cannot operate properly with an NDA.
CCP cannot operate properly without an NDA.

There is a huge conflict of interest here. It needs resolving sharpish. I've never voted in the elections, I cannot see the point. CCP would be better off selecting 15 players at random to be the CSM.

Perhaps another level needs to be introduced here. 200 players in an assembly to help funnel ideas to the CSM, the CSM will then negotiate with CCP on those issues.

Anyway my point is I don't see my tax ISK working here so time to shut down or refocus the project.

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.07.10 22:59:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Turdilious on 10/07/2010 23:09:48
If the CSM want to do something constructive to really grab CCPs and the players attention you should all resign preferably the same day. What do you think would happen if you did that?

Lord XSiV
Amarr
Kodar Innovations
Posted - 2010.07.10 23:29:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Cortante
Things that the money used on the CSM could be better used for:

- Bringing back EVE TV
- Redesigning and upgrading the forums
- Putting together more random polls and surveys of the actual EVE playerbase
- Improving the EVE store or adding more items to it
- Adding more to live events
- Improving the awful EVE correspondents reports
- Basically, anything else that would actually benefit far more players. You could take the budget for the CSM and buy each dev at CCP a bunch of cheetos bags and you'd be using the money in a better way for the people who pay for this game.

The CSM is a total social butterfly idiot-fest. Look at this thread, people don't vote because they give a damn or think the CSM actually does ANYTHING... but because of alliance favors and requests so they can get inside information. It's why you see the same old people being elected each cycle from the big alliances, so that they can get insider information about upcoming changes to the game and prepare for them early and so a few of them can get free trips to Iceland. They don't do any work, they don't have new ideas, it's the same old people getting the same old advantages.

The CSM is imbalancing, impotent and idiotic. Get rid of it! Put the resources to something else that actually benefits the playerbase.


If you were to work out the total cost for the CSM on yearly basis you would probably find it to be laughably low compared the costs associated with assigning a scrum team to any of your suggested activities.


Well after you made this statement, it is pretty obvious you are only interested in protecting your free trip to Iceland....

Maybe there is progress being made with some of the CSM members in actually acknowledging that it is only a free trip to Iceland and that they have no influence over CCP whatsoever.

Well they might provide some entertainment for CCP staff (akin to being a group of 'court jesters') in behaving like someone cares about what they say. However once the CSM figures that out it will most likely be the end of it as CCP will have lost the entertainment value of the CSM.

And seriously, if you thought CCP actually listened to this group of clowns you are sadly mistaken. No respectable software production house in the world takes its player base seriously for any suggestions - that in itself would be game breaking.



Mike Azariah
Posted - 2010.07.11 02:07:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Turdilious
Edited by: Turdilious on 10/07/2010 23:09:48
If the CSM want to do something constructive to really grab CCPs and the players attention you should all resign preferably the same day. What do you think would happen if you did that?


I'd be a tiny bit closer to actually serving? Two or three banks of resignations and I might see daylight.

Needless to say I think 'Obvious forum troll is obvious'

As I have said elsewhere . . . if success is your measure of worthiness to continue . . . how do you stand on AIDS research? Cancer?

No, I do not think that the CSM is on par with those . . . just applying reductio ad absurdum to the argument.

I DO support the current and past CSM members. I think they work way wayyy too hard for little thanks or recompense.

m

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.11 02:55:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV

Well after you made this statement, it is pretty obvious you are only interested in protecting your free trip to Iceland....



I like how people still view it as some sort of holiday while it is actually a whole lot of ****ing work.

Lord XSiV
Amarr
Kodar Innovations
Posted - 2010.07.11 05:12:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Lord XSiV on 11/07/2010 05:13:29
Edited by: Lord XSiV on 11/07/2010 05:12:26
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Lord XSiV

Well after you made this statement, it is pretty obvious you are only interested in protecting your free trip to Iceland....



I like how people still view it as some sort of holiday while it is actually a whole lot of ****ing work.


That's because it is a holiday. A paid one from the company who makes a game that you play.

And if you really think we are going to believe that sitting around in a room 'chatting' about the game with a few CCP representatives can be considered 'a lot of <expletive> work' you are going way too far in your estimation of the intelligence in the player base. Yes, the player base is generally stupid, but not that dumb.

That is of course unless you are stupid enough to actually put work like 'effort' into such an activity that has no meaning other than for a 'meet and greet'.


Loi Shaini
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.11 05:31:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Lord XSiV

Well after you made this statement, it is pretty obvious you are only interested in protecting your free trip to Iceland....



I like how people still view it as some sort of holiday while it is actually a whole lot of ****ing work.


Well you see, that's the nub of it. You all go to Iceland, get wined and dined, you sit around and yak about crap and go home. You accomplish nothing more than an inflated sense of self-importance - and call it f**king work *LOL*.

You obviously should look up the word "work" one day Laughing


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