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Cromo Effect
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.07.07 03:56:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cromo Effect on 08/07/2010 01:29:52
Edited by: Cromo Effect on 07/07/2010 04:15:11
Something has got to be done. Right now there is the Dramiel, and then there is everything else as far as frigs go.

Why fly any other frigate when a Dramiel can do everything better??

I propose the Dramiel be balanced.

Lower the power grid my 20%!

ihcn
Posted - 2010.07.07 04:05:00 - [2]
 

Usually topics like this get more support when there's an actual proposal involved. some sort of evidence that you've put thought into the idea and how it'll affect eve. A good start would be exactly what about the dramiel you think is overpowered, and specifically how to fix it.

Cromo Effect
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.07.07 04:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: ihcn
Usually topics like this get more support when there's an actual proposal involved. some sort of evidence that you've put thought into the idea and how it'll affect eve. A good start would be exactly what about the dramiel you think is overpowered, and specifically how to fix it.


Fair enough, I'll edit my OP then.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.07 06:07:00 - [4]
 

There are many things that can be used to counter the Dramiel. Get an imagination FFS. Wink

Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2010.07.07 07:10:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Slimy Worm on 07/07/2010 07:12:06
Supported, other frigates need to be viable. Right now it's either Dramiel or gtfo.

Specifically, lowering the powergrid is a good idea since it wouldn't take away what makes Dramiels special (their speed and agility, though they should be made reasonable too) but it would mean that they couldn't fit a Medium Shield Extender and use dual propulsion at the same time.

Their tank should be their speed, not their hitpoints.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.07.07 09:17:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cromo Effect
Edited by: Cromo Effect on 07/07/2010 04:15:11
Something has got to be done. Right now there is the Dramiel, and then there is everything else as far as frigs go.

Why fly any other frigate when a Dramiel can do everything better??

I propose the Dramiel be balanced.

Lower the power grid my 15%!


So people kill dramiels solo in:
- frigates(Shocked)
- cruisers (bellicose lol)
- battlecruisers (even with blasters!)
- battleships (Shocked).

Doesnt look that overpowered for me. maybe you should get creative and think about how you can beat them instead of trying to nerf them?

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.07.07 10:24:00 - [7]
 

The Dram isn't that hard to counter tbh. Sure it's good, but it's also quite expensive. It's greatest ability is getting out of a fight that's not going well. My only concern was that it was a little too fast - overloaded & with snakes it can past 10km/sec which, as I understand it, was a problem a while back (hence the speed nerf).

Perhaps just lower it's base speed by 5%.

Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.07 14:19:00 - [8]
 

Your just jellin cuz u dont have 80 mil for a dram

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.07.07 16:28:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 07/07/2010 16:37:47
Originally by: Marlona Sky
There are many things that can be used to counter the Dramiel. Get an imagination FFS. Wink


Like a badger.

Seriously though, a curse is the end of a dramiel. I've escaped dramiels with neuts on various ships. It really isn't that hard. They usually don't have much cap to spare.

There are other ships with crazy speed besides the dramiel... the daredevil (4 low slots) is one. The firetail is another. The succubus is slower, but it does more damage and can fit two neuts up top to shut down faster frigates.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.07.07 17:12:00 - [10]
 

dont forget. cruors, comets. both can even kill dramiels, if piloted correctly.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2010.07.07 19:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite on 08/07/2010 16:34:31
A couple of thoughts.... Yes, the dramiel can be countered and killed. That doesn't change the balance issue with the dramiel:

Given a dramiel w/ a vanilla fit:
[Dramiel, Dramiel - Vanilla]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S

Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x3
Hobgoblin II x1

1.) Its a faction frigate that is faster and more agile than an interceptor. Even non-faction fit, a typical dramiel will go just under 1900 m/s w/ ab and 5400 m/s w/ a mwd. Alone, this is not a problem. Coupled with the folowing benefits is where the dramiel becomes overpowered.
2.) Its a faction frigate that is NOT gimped on dps. While I don't have eft in front of me, this fit can do over 150 dps (w/ RF Emp). There are several assault frigates that can't put this much dps out!
3.) It is NOT gimped on tank. This frigate has over 6000 EHP, as it can fit a MSE and a DCU.

With faction fittings, everything is improved (you can fit bigger guns, similar tank, and go much faster!).

Ships are typically balanced amoung these three attributes, and the dramiel is just good or amazing at all of them!

To balance it, one of these things needs to be hindered a bit. Lowering the power grid so it can't fit dual prop and a MSE seems a reasonable change in my opinion!

*Edit*
Before I support such an idea, I would want to see some thought as to how much is reasonable, etc. Also, if other ships are getting a boost, (t3 frigates, ab boost to af, etc) then the dramiel might be perfect as is.

The DRUDGE
Posted - 2010.07.07 19:34:00 - [12]
 

FFS, I don't think people seem to get the point of a "FACTION" frigate. Its a powerful frigate hull that comes with a pretty pricey tag (80 mil isk)...If anything, they should boost the other faction frigs so they can counter the dramiel better. That would make the game a lot funner instead of just nerfing everything.

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.07.07 20:44:00 - [13]
 

Dramiel doesn't need to be nerfed, gtfo with your nonsense.

Also, go ahead and drop the PG by 15%. I'll just downgrade to best named stuff and a navy MAPC, and fly it just as I always have.

Cromo Effect
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.07.08 01:31:00 - [14]
 

I changed the proposal to be a reduction of 20%

Being able to have a medium shield extender, scram, and dual propulsion an a frigate is game breaking.

Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
Original Sin.

Posted - 2010.07.08 05:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Cromo Effect
I changed the proposal to be a reduction of 20%

Being able to have a medium shield extender, scram, and dual propulsion an a frigate is game breaking.


I have to agree with this.

Gaven Darklighter
Gallente
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.07.08 07:36:00 - [16]
 

Ever heard of a Daredevil?

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.07.08 09:25:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Cromo Effect
I changed the proposal to be a reduction of 20%

Being able to have a medium shield extender, scram, and dual propulsion an a frigate is game breaking.


maybe you should think this through before starting a proposal. changing the content of the proposal every few replies isnt really good.

Ecoskii
Posted - 2010.08.04 17:05:00 - [18]
 

Everything better than interceptors + everything better than frigates + higher dps than some AFs = needs 'balanced'.

Killed a bunch of them solo in specifically fit T1 cruisers

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:40:00 - [19]
 

http://doubletap.killmail.org/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7166161


you were saying....?



now add daredevil, ishkur and others to the mix of being capable of soloing drams Cool


Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.04 19:30:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite
points


Half the ship's dps comes from its drones and those can be removed easily, they are not bonused. In fact you should view the Dramiel as the Vagabond of frigates. Over average survivability with a specific list of targets. If you want to counter and kill one instead of just chasing it away you need to force its pilot in an unfavourable situation by playing on his over confidence.

If anything should be contested about it is how well this Vaga-like role scales within the ship class. Comparing the Dramiel to other frigates is hard when the only viable T2 face to face combat frigates are the interceptors.

tl;dr adapt or die htfu etc

Prof Fail
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.04 21:28:00 - [21]
 

You can look at any pirate faction frigate: Dramiel, Succubus, Daredevil. Theyre all exceptional in certain fields. Dramiel is not special in that view. A Succubus or Daredevil can beat a Dramiel easily, if they get a tackle.

Daredevil is gallente style (pure Blasterdps), Succubus represents the amarrian way (dps/neuts), finally the Dramiel is fast and agile like Minmatar are supposed to be.

Also pirate faction battleships like Machariel, Vindicator, Bhaalgorn are alot stronger or have better boni than other ships of that class. They all have their special field theyre good at. Blasterdps, neuts, webs, speed and agility.

We can also play this game with Vigilants, Cynabals, Ashimmus for pirate faction cruisers. Its exactly the same.

Those pirate-ships are just better than their common counterparts. They have higher boni, more hitpoints, more fitting slots and more fitting resources to use the additional slots. Ccp stated shipquality in eve is like this:

T1 Ships < Navy faction ships < T2 ships < pirate faction ships


And thats it. Dramiels and nearly all other pirate ships fit in this sceme. Also the price reflects this^^ If you pay 90 mill for a frigate, 200 mill for a cruiser or 700-800 mill for a BS, it must be good. And still: If you fit a cheaper ship as a counter you can still beat Dramiels and stuff. Its not like youre unvulnerable. I dont understand why everybody wants to nerf Dramiels....maybe ppl are angry they cant kill it with their crows and rifters^^

Goose99
Posted - 2010.08.04 23:19:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Prof Fail
You can look at any pirate faction frigate: Dramiel, Succubus, Daredevil. Theyre all exceptional in certain fields. Dramiel is not special in that view. A Succubus or Daredevil can beat a Dramiel easily, if they get a tackle.

Daredevil is gallente style (pure Blasterdps), Succubus represents the amarrian way (dps/neuts), finally the Dramiel is fast and agile like Minmatar are supposed to be.

Also pirate faction battleships like Machariel, Vindicator, Bhaalgorn are alot stronger or have better boni than other ships of that class. They all have their special field theyre good at. Blasterdps, neuts, webs, speed and agility.

We can also play this game with Vigilants, Cynabals, Ashimmus for pirate faction cruisers. Its exactly the same.

Those pirate-ships are just better than their common counterparts. They have higher boni, more hitpoints, more fitting slots and more fitting resources to use the additional slots. Ccp stated shipquality in eve is like this:

T1 Ships < Navy faction ships < T2 ships < pirate faction ships


And thats it. Dramiels and nearly all other pirate ships fit in this sceme. Also the price reflects this^^ If you pay 90 mill for a frigate, 200 mill for a cruiser or 700-800 mill for a BS, it must be good. And still: If you fit a cheaper ship as a counter you can still beat Dramiels and stuff. Its not like youre unvulnerable. I dont understand why everybody wants to nerf Dramiels....maybe ppl are angry they cant kill it with their crows and rifters^^


The problem is, at the frigate level, speed is by far the most important. Daredevil's blaster dps can't compare to bigger ships dps, neither can Succubus' small neuts compare to large neuts. Seriously, what's the point? They don't even track. But Dramiel's forte, speed, obviously beats larger ships. It just so happens that Dramiel's speciality is OP when in frigate form, while all other frig's are pointless.

It's not that Dramiel can't be popped, but rather that other frigs need a reason to exist. And no, small neuts and loldps out of small blasters don't cut it.Razz

Mongo Edwards
Posted - 2010.08.04 23:33:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Prof Fail
You can look at any pirate faction frigate: Dramiel, Succubus, Daredevil. Theyre all exceptional in certain fields.



Forgot one the worm and its not terribly exceptional at anything

To the original comment about faction frigs being exceptional in certain fields why should a Dramiel be able to tank, dps, and burn faster then inty's at the same time? It needs to be gimped so that you can make it great at one or two of the above not all three.

Mongo

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.05 02:13:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Goose99
The problem is, at the frigate level, speed is by far the most important. Daredevil's blaster dps can't compare to bigger ships dps, neither can Succubus' small neuts compare to large neuts. Seriously, what's the point? They don't even track. But Dramiel's forte, speed, obviously beats larger ships. It just so happens that Dramiel's speciality is OP when in frigate form, while all other frig's are pointless.

It's not that Dramiel can't be popped, but rather that other frigs need a reason to exist. And no, small neuts and loldps out of small blasters don't cut it.Razz


The Machariel is slower than a self-respecting AB frig, whereas a Vindicator does far better DPS than any other subcapital. By your logic, does this mean that the Vindicator is better than a Machariel, because its bonuses fit in well with its ship class?

Goose99
Posted - 2010.08.05 02:28:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Goose99
The problem is, at the frigate level, speed is by far the most important. Daredevil's blaster dps can't compare to bigger ships dps, neither can Succubus' small neuts compare to large neuts. Seriously, what's the point? They don't even track. But Dramiel's forte, speed, obviously beats larger ships. It just so happens that Dramiel's speciality is OP when in frigate form, while all other frig's are pointless.

It's not that Dramiel can't be popped, but rather that other frigs need a reason to exist. And no, small neuts and loldps out of small blasters don't cut it.Razz


The Machariel is slower than a self-respecting AB frig, whereas a Vindicator does far better DPS than any other subcapital. By your logic, does this mean that the Vindicator is better than a Machariel, because its bonuses fit in well with its ship class?


Mach's speed does not make all other BS obsolete. Dramiel's speed along with lack of weakness makes it flat out better than any other frig in such a way that they have no reason to exist.Razz

Prof Fail
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.05 09:33:00 - [26]
 

So now its the speed? Yes, speed is one key value for frigates. The Dramiel is an Angel (Minmatar/Gallente)pirate faction frigate with a very high price tag. Its must be the best ship in this field, following this definition.

Lets see how the MWD speed situation is (with like 3 Overdrives), no overheat:

T1 frig like rifter: around 3500 ms
T2 interceptor claw: around 5500 ms
pirate frig Dramiel: around 7500 ms

Values might differ a bit, but not much. Thats how its is: From every shipclass to the next best is a difference of about 2000ms. For me it looks logical. For the expense of 80-90 million, you have to be faster than a trashy 10 million Intie. Of course you might state that other frigs are pointless then, but this is not the case. Following that logic would also mean that all BS beside pirate BS are unneccesary since those pirate Faction BS perfom better than standard BS. But obviously thats not the case..... since not everyone can expense the isk regularly...same for Dramiels. Its a superior toy for alot of money. It will never replace Interceptors.

Also Dramiel isnt really better in all fields than a ceptor: Interceptors have a better tackling range (shipbonus)and alot more warpspeed. So if you want to "intercept" a hostile gang, Intie is still better .)

And now stop whining. Just pay the price and buy a pirate frig. Nerfing this ships would make them pointless. Remember how silly faction frigs where in the past...there was no market since they were just not good enough for their price. Now ccp buffed them to fit in their sceme again and everybody wants to nerf it^^ This makes no sense.

Laurew
Posted - 2010.08.05 12:27:00 - [27]
 

Not supported. Dramiel is fine

LiMu Bai
Posted - 2010.08.05 14:14:00 - [28]
 

Not supported.

Dramiel is a extremly expensive Angel ship. Since its mainly Minmatar and secondary Gallente: It should focus speed and damage. For this crazy price and the amount of skills you need it must be faster than an average ceptor worth 1/9th of a Dram. Everything else makes no sense.

Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave
Posted - 2010.08.06 09:33:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
There are many things that can be used to counter the Dramiel. Get an imagination FFS. Wink


Yeah, there are, but that's not the point.
Point is that it's the best frigate (even faction) and no one considers buying the others because the Dramiel outperforms it.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.08.06 15:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Sepheir Sepheron
Originally by: Marlona Sky
There are many things that can be used to counter the Dramiel. Get an imagination FFS. Wink


Yeah, there are, but that's not the point.
Point is that it's the best frigate (even faction) and no one considers buying the others because the Dramiel outperforms it.



see my post higher up.. a taranis is capable of doing it... Wink



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