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Diablo Ex
Caldari
The Devil's Reject's
Posted - 2010.07.04 01:44:00 - [1]
 

I have seen alot of opinion voiced lately over the learning skills and the long time sink involved before a toon becomes "viable" (whatever that means).

I have a slightly different issue with it. The method of skill training is not in sync with player immersion. Example; I'm currently training Covert Ops IV, after training to Cloaking V, yet I have Frigate III and could in no way fly anything that I apparently am quite good at operating. It makes no sense to me. As immersion requires IMHO some commonality with RL, and learning should involve some form of "hands on" experience, I see the training system as broken. What should be happening is you gain SP's in whatever activity you are currently involved in, and over time you get better at it.


Clueless Alt
Posted - 2010.07.04 01:50:00 - [2]
 

It make sense to 300000 users, so I guess you're the broken one.

Caphelo
Posted - 2010.07.04 01:58:00 - [3]
 

Really the thing that doesn't make sense is why you trained cloaking to V.

Hromodox
Dreddit
Posted - 2010.07.04 02:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Caphelo
Really the thing that doesn't make sense is why you trained cloaking to V.

FireT
Gallente
Royal Advanced Industries
Imperial Crimson Legion
Posted - 2010.07.04 03:52:00 - [5]
 

Terrible troll is terrible

Honestly, this is a resurrected zombie horse that is getting beaten to death again.

Also please be two things:
1) Original. because training Covert Ops 4 and having frigs 3 gets you nowhere fast. You need your faction frigate skill 5 to fly covert ops ships. So your claim makes you a poor liar.
2) Immersion comes from the fact that CCP is generous in not making you grind stuff like you seemed to enjoy in other MMOs. In that case World off Whinecraft is definitely for you. It gives your grinding inverse proportional raises to your real life interaction.

Honestly, can we just have people that make these topics just get banned?

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.04 05:27:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: FireT
Immersion comes from the fact that CCP is generous in not making you grind stuff like you seemed to enjoy in other MMOs

CCP is sadisticly mean. There are way to many basic ship skills and most aspects of a ship have at least 3 skills with increasing ranks(Targeting, Targeting Distance, Lock Strength, Multitasking Rolling Eyes). I think alot of people get put off after the learning skill grind and quit EVE after a few months, I know I almost did several times until I found myself a ship to train for (CCP would do better if they didn't rely on quick turn around new players and a small cadre of vets with multiple accounts). EVE is harsh, but RL humans need some sense of quick gratification (not the instant Titan pilot conceptShocked)and if you need to train one more stupid 3 week skill after queing 2 other 3 week plus the slew other skills you spent 3 months training just before the skill book for ship unlocks...ARGG! RAGEPUNCHWALL I NEED SOMETHING TO DO! Evil or Very Mad STUPID JEOPARDY THEME SONG WITH THE QUE! WISH I COULD TRAIN SECOND CHARACTER TO **** AROUND ON SAME ACCOUNT WHILE MAIN FINISHES MARAUDER 5 OFF!!!!

If EVE had less grind just to fly a ship well (almost done with the last "upgrade skill", might be able to install a meta 4 cup holder with that extra .25 PG on the ship now Laughing), we might see less kvetching on the forums about moving level 4s to lowsec and see more T2 ships getting destroyed instead of a bunch of risk adverse players flying POS throw away ships (pirates ganking ships with destroyers or carebears refusing to fly their pimp mobiles in lulsec while calling each other a *****. Both are not risking anything when they fly cheap ships!).

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.04 08:46:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 04/07/2010 10:05:28
Originally by: FireT

2) Immersion comes from the fact that CCP is generous in not making you grind stuff like you seemed to enjoy in other MMOs. In that case World off Whinecraft is definitely for you. It gives your grinding inverse proportional raises to your real life interaction.

You must be joking. Why then are people grinding L4s and mining en masse? Because it's so fun and challenging and immersive?

The only difference is that while standings gain, LP, earning money and skilltraining can be done in one action in other games, skilltraining is seperate, fixed and 20 times as slow in EVE.
People still grind for standings gain and earning money and LP, taking away the skilltraining part of it doesn't suddenly make it a grindless game.

It's other things that make EVE a good game, but don't come with this "grindless" nonsense.

Originally by: Clueless Alt
It make sense to 300000 users, so I guess you're the broken one.

Numbers don't necessarily make things good. There may be 6 million statanists around, doesn't make it great just because of those numbers. Not saying you're wrong, but your argument is invalid.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.07.04 10:47:00 - [8]
 

This is exactly what Eve is not and what a lot of people found appealing about it: a grind for xp. Sure you CAN grind for isk if you wanted to, but that doesn't make your character more skilled.
It's fine the way it is. Making it like the OP has mentioned would really make **** hit the fan anyway 'cause writing a bot to farm xp is pretty easy.

Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
Posted - 2010.07.04 14:07:00 - [9]
 

op is a ***got

Skanthra
Minmatar
Bath and Body Works
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.07.04 15:27:00 - [10]
 

OP should go get W***d of W******t

Clueless Alt
Posted - 2010.07.04 15:51:00 - [11]
 

Satanists are great & right.

Harkwyth Mist
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.04 19:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Drykor
This is exactly what Eve is not and what a lot of people found appealing about it: a grind for xp.


Not strictly true.

SP in Eve accomplishes the same task as XP in most other MMO's, which is Character Progression. CCP just used a different mechanic for the process of player improvement.

XP involves grinding mobs and/or quests in other MMO's.
SP involves grinding real life time.


In other MMO's [Mob Grinding] & [Quests] give Gold, Equipment and XP. Gold just lets you buy 'Stuff', Equipment is the 'Stuff' that you equip and/or sell. XP is the linked character progression method that is used to control and restrict where you can go and what you can do.

In Eve, the same tasks, [Ratting] & [Missions] give ISK, LP and Loot/Salvage. ISK & LP are just used to buy 'Stuff', Loot & Salvage is the 'Stuff' that you equip, use and/or sell. SP is used only to restrict "What you can do" using realtime as a restriction on what a player can accomplish.

It may not appear as a huge difference, but it's a massive fundamental shift in the underlying process of Character Progression.

Killstealing
Posted - 2010.07.04 20:31:00 - [13]
 

Only difference between XP in WoW and SP in EVE is that in EVE you will never be able to catch up with another, older player in terms of SP. You don't need to grind XP but by giving up that you also give up the ability to grind more XP than others.
I'm perfectly fine with that because the bonuses from more SP are minute compared to strategy, ship type and maybe even ammo type.
If you really dislike EVE then it's really too bad because it is a major factor that makes EVE EVE and not say, WoW in space.
Also, what's bad about being able to do some ganking or roam around, explore a bit while knowing you're gaining SP at the max rate possible? In WoW I'd have to optimise my farming and grindgrindgrind all the time which really wasn't fun. In EVE I can fly around acting stupid in my rifter knowing I'll be just as far training that frigate V than that miner or ratter farming it up.

Tarasina
Posted - 2010.07.05 04:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Killstealing
Only difference between XP in WoW and SP in EVE is that in EVE you will never be able to catch up with another, older player in terms of SP. You don't need to grind XP but by giving up that you also give up the ability to grind more XP than others.
I'm perfectly fine with that because the bonuses from more SP are minute compared to strategy, ship type and maybe even ammo type.
If you really dislike EVE then it's really too bad because it is a major factor that makes EVE EVE and not say, WoW in space.
Also, what's bad about being able to do some ganking or roam around, explore a bit while knowing you're gaining SP at the max rate possible? In WoW I'd have to optimise my farming and grindgrindgrind all the time which really wasn't fun. In EVE I can fly around acting stupid in my rifter knowing I'll be just as far training that frigate V than that miner or ratter farming it up.


That is my main gripe with the skilltraining system, there is no way to speed it up (besides implants and stats). No matter what I do ingame, whatever challenges I overcome...doesn't matter.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.05 09:25:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tarasina
That is my main gripe with the skilltraining system, there is no way to speed it up (besides implants and stats). No matter what I do ingame, whatever challenges I overcome...doesn't matter.

Actually, make a lot of ISK, buy a 120m+ SP character and enjoy the expensive clones.

James Hawkins
Posted - 2010.07.05 10:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hromodox
Originally by: Caphelo
Really the thing that doesn't make sense is why you trained cloaking to V.


Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2010.07.05 10:55:00 - [17]
 

Not being able to catch up is the biggest fallacy Eve has to battle. Everyone in Eve can train anything, skills only go to level 5 and if you're adventurous you can buy a character with a massive amount of skillpoints. A ship can only draw upon a set amount of skills (ea. Large Projectile Turret V is no use for a Zealot even though you've trained it).

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.05 11:07:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Grarr Dexx
A ship can only draw upon a set amount of skills (ea. Large Projectile Turret V is no use for a Zealot even though you've trained it).

Second hand characters, bah!

Who knows what the former owner may have done with them! ugh

Maximillian Dragonard
Posted - 2010.07.05 11:12:00 - [19]
 

This whole xp v sp issue boils down to one thing, and that's newer players, with the time to powergame, wanting the ability to hose those who have been around for years. Frankly, I have little time to play, so I love the ability to train over time rather than grinding. RL > game for most adults. Fortunately, Eve is much more of an adult game than most!

Solistalia
Posted - 2010.07.06 07:09:00 - [20]
 

The one thing EVE brings to the table for power gamers or "hardcore" players as some like to call themselves...Free to Play. These power gamers will come along, get some skills where they need to be and farm the ISK to play for free before mom n dad notice the CC charge or they need to relocate those funds from the game to RL.

This then translates into slowly making 600m+ ISK monthly and making a 2nd account and so on and so forth.

I am a "power gamer" as it were for the fact of this thread. I can sit here and kill rats all day long or go and mine all day long or even play taxi cab for materials til my eyes bleed and my feet fall off due to lack of blood. The hell if I do but I could.


Simple fact though to any and all power gamers or self proclaimed "Hardcore" gamers. EVE takes Real Life Time far more seriously than the previous games most play. And I like that fact. It actually says "I can log out and take my dog for a walk and not think of how to increase my XP/Hour" or go to a bar with friends!! yay! new idea that...aka im gonna try to use EVE to get a bit of my life back that the multitudes of MMOs iv played and bounced around through the last six years devoured by my obsession of best xp/hour >_<

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.06 10:02:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/07/2010 10:08:19
Originally by: Killstealing
Only difference between XP in WoW and SP in EVE is that in EVE you will never be able to catch up with another, older player in terms of SP.
No, that's not the only difference. Another important one is that "catching up" is entirely irrelevant.

SP aren't XP.

SP are poured into skills that give you bonuses, and these skills max out at lvl V. Once you have that level, you are the best in the game at that particular skill, along with everyone else who has trained it to the same level. You then have to start from zero at a new skill. Once you reach lvl V with that one, you are once again top dog on the server (or, well… at least a part of the top kennel) in that particular area, and now you have to start from zero again.

XP are usually poured into your character, and it maxes out at lvl 50/80/250/whatever. Along the way, you pick up skills that depend on whichever level you are at the moment. When you have maxed out, you have the same amount of skills and everyone else at the same level and you just have to hope that you have picked them sensibly (or that the game offers remaps).

The key difference here is that the amount of SP a character has in EVE says nothing about his abilities, his "power level", his strength, or about… anything really, except for how expensive a clone he must maintain. Off the top of my head (and while I would expect there to be some exceptons), I can't think of a single game where you can't directly map XP → Level → Power.

You can't do the same for SP because there is no connection between these concepts. You can almost do it for individual skills, but since the rank and bonuses for those skills vary so much, it's nigh impossible to make a useful comparison even between them.

Eg.
For one skill, we have 256,000 SP → Level V → 25% bonus.
For another we have 256,000 SP → Level V → 50% bonus + 10% bonus.
For a third, we have 256,000 SP → Level IV → 8% bonus.

…but this still tells us squat about what that much-maligned "total SP" score means, and it's only in terms of total SP that new players have problems catching up (and I say "have problems", since the existance of variable SP speeds and of SP loss means that it's always a possibility). As a result, if you want to talk about "catching up" in any kind of useful sense in EVE, SP — in particular total SP — no longer becomes a factor. It's almost entirely irrelevant to the conversation. What's left are things like applicable skill levels, experience, pre-planning, co-ordination and combination with complementary skill sets etc etc etc. All of which can be "caught up" with.

If you want to talk about catching up in relation to SP, then the ground rules are simple: you max out at lvl V. This costs you 256k × Rank. This is a finite (and most of the time quite low) number. You can always catch up to it.
Originally by: Tarasina
That is my main gripe with the skilltraining system, there is no way to speed it up (besides implants and stats). No matter what I do ingame, whatever challenges I overcome...doesn't matter.
That's because EVE is designed so that you can play the game, and at the same time have your skills advance, rather than letting the advancement of skills be the game (or even worse, forcing you to grind skill advancement before you can even begin to actually play the game).

The heart of the matter is really one of personal goals and perspectives: if you consider the building of your character and watching his/her stats to pile up to be "the game", then sure, EVE won't be your cup of tea. If you consider "the game" to be everything you can do with your character, then EVE awards you with a suh-weet mechanic where you don't have to worry that much about character development because the game does it all for you, quietly in the background.

Moist Onions
Gallente
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.07.06 13:52:00 - [22]
 

lol! You really training Cloaking V! lol!

MordebeFremon
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:49:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Diablo Ex
I have seen alot of opinion voiced lately over the learning skills and the long time sink involved before a toon becomes "viable" (whatever that means).

I have a slightly different issue with it. The method of skill training is not in sync with player immersion. Example; I'm currently training Covert Ops IV, after training to Cloaking V, yet I have Frigate III and could in no way fly anything that I apparently am quite good at operating. It makes no sense to me. As immersion requires IMHO some commonality with RL, and learning should involve some form of "hands on" experience, I see the training system as broken. What should be happening is you gain SP's in whatever activity you are currently involved in, and over time you get better at it.


interesting idea but not really practical ,as we have seen CCP can if they wish give out skill points when they want too , lets take this idea one step further and perhaps they could start selling skill points too players therefore accelerating skill training for those who wish too gain SP quickly for a more enjoyable experience within EVE instead of getting bored and leaving the game!Twisted Evil YARRRR!! Laughing

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:02:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/07/2010 17:02:49
Originally by: Diablo Ex
Example; I'm currently training Covert Ops IV, after training to Cloaking V, yet I have Frigate III and could in no way fly anything that I apparently am quite good at operating. It makes no sense to me.

It would make sense if you trained Frigate 5 and Cloaking 4.

Training Cloaking 5 (a rank 6 skill) really doesn't get you much compared to the faster training Frigate 5 (a rank 2 skill). In fact, Cruiser 5 (a rank 5 skill) is also faster to train and much more useful.

Mael Sechnaill
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:25:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring

Numbers don't necessarily make things good. There may be 6 million statanists around, doesn't make it great just because of those numbers. Not saying you're wrong, but your argument is invalid.


I agree with this fully, although I never met a statanist. Not even a satanist, if I come to think of it ...

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.06 23:25:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 06/07/2010 23:25:41
Originally by: Tippia
"catching up" is entirely irrelevant.
SP aren't XP.

SP are poured into skills that give you bonuses, and these skills max out at lvl V. Once you have that level, you are the best in the game at that particular skill, along with everyone else who has trained it to the same level.

... only that it takes a lot of time to get even all the relevant skills to lvl IV or V.

Yes EVE doesn't know "levels" as such but it does have, let's call it, "efficiency for a certain ship".
If we take combat ships as example, it takes over a year to get all the relevant navigation, science, mechanic, learning, gunnery, missile, starship command, electronics and engineering skills to IV or V. Training to battlecruiser takes a week. Flying it at 95% efficiency takes, say 14 months.

Now 14 months isn't that long but it until then it still matters if you have enough relevant SP. Because else your speed, defense and DPS will be at 50% of an average 3 years old combat pilot.

Now of course EVE is all about numbers and a blob of frigates can destroy a battleship. Doesn´t take away the fact that time thus SP is still very important.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.07 06:23:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
... only that it takes a lot of time to get even all the relevant skills to lvl IV or V.
…which is what makes the whole SP comparing competition even more silly. The benefits you get for all that time is very very low, and yet you have to pour a ton of SP (aka time) into it. That SP/time is far better placed elsewhere.

For instance, would you rather spend 1 month getting from a 20% bonus to a total of 25%, or would you prefer to spend it getting a (20%+20%+20%+20%+20%) = 150% bonus?

Or, more importantly, given the second choice, how long would it take you to get the same 25% as the first guy is getting? How long would it take to "catch up"? While he's pursuing lvl V:s, you go after lvl IV:s at 1/5 the time/SP requirement, and after doing just two of those (taking, say, a week for each), you are already at +44%, while he's not even half-way towards getting that last 5%. In less than half the time (< half the SP), you are already ahead of him.

So again, counting SP tells you absolutely nothing. Going for lvl V:s is, to begin with, a complete waste of time and SP for the benefit it brings unless it unlocks some particularly useful piece of equipment. "Catching up" is not only possible, but also very very easy and rather quick, but to see that you have to forget about the SP and look at what they actually give you.
Quote:
If we take combat ships as example, it takes over a year to get all the relevant navigation, science, mechanic, learning, gunnery, missile, starship command, electronics and engineering skills to IV or V. Training to battlecruiser takes a week. Flying it at 95% efficiency takes, say 14 months.
But that's just it: if you already have everything at IV, you are already at 95% efficiency. In the (supposed) 14 months it takes to get it to 100%, you could get a whole set of different ships to the same 95%, and somewhere among them, you'll find a different ship setup that will handily beat that 100%-efficient ship the other guy is chasing after, and which only requires 40% efficiency to do so.

Wolfcheck
The Ice Cartel
Posted - 2010.07.09 12:16:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
You must be joking. Why then are people grinding L4s and mining en masse? Because it's so fun and challenging and immersive?


You CAN avoid grinding in EVE. Move the SP training to grinding and you'll just have a WoW-in-funny-clothes.
Well, a lot more fun than that but you get my point.

I can mine today and rat tomorrow and go pvp the next day and mission the day and I don't need to play 30 hours a day (yes, it's a joke) to be able to be competitive. I just need some skills as a player and some patience.

Quote:
skilltraining is seperate, fixed and 20 times as slow in EVE.


Yah, maybe for you it's slower. But for people who can't play as much as they'd like, like me, it's faster this way.

Quote:
Originally by: Clueless Alt
It make sense to 300000 users, so I guess you're the broken one.

Numbers don't necessarily make things good. There may be 6 million statanists around, doesn't make it great just because of those numbers. Not saying you're wrong, but your argument is invalid.


Uhm. Yours is logically flawed as well - it's not numbers, it's percentage. 6 millions satanists in the world are 0.1%, 300k eve players are roughly 99%?
If the OP doesn't like it, there's plenty of other games around. Beyond Protocol is great (if it's still around).
But... I find eve is better, just like it is :)

Bernard Schuyler
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:55:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Diablo Ex
I have seen alot of opinion voiced lately over the learning skills and the long time sink involved before a toon becomes "viable" (whatever that means).

I have a slightly different issue with it. The method of skill training is not in sync with player immersion. Example; I'm currently training Covert Ops IV, after training to Cloaking V, yet I have Frigate III and could in no way fly anything that I apparently am quite good at operating. It makes no sense to me. As immersion requires IMHO some commonality with RL, and learning should involve some form of "hands on" experience, I see the training system as broken. What should be happening is you gain SP's in whatever activity you are currently involved in, and over time you get better at it.




Where you are going wrong is you assume that there is must be a direct link between ships and skills. For instance you example about being able to get Cloaking and Covert Ops yet lack the Frigate skill needed to actually fly said ship.

Not every skill is entirely linear. Taking Cloaking for example. While it is true that Level 4 "unlocks" the cloak for covert ops ships, previous levels opened up the basic cloak usable on any ship, and Cloaking 5 opens up the rare CONCORD modified cloaking device, also for use on non-covops ships. Only non-covops type ships would ever need Cloaking 5.

Additionally, some skills that are connected are on different "career vectors." For example, you need Hacking to open up access to Codebreaker Modules used by Explorer types, but you also need that skill to open up access to the racial Encryption skills which are used to be able to access certain Blueprints for use by Industry types.

Bottom line is you can't look at those skills in a vaccuum. Different people might require the same skills, but never use them in the same way, as in my example of an Explorer and Manufacturer both having the Hacking skill.

However, your second point which is that you think the training system should mimic every other MMO out there, in that you gain skill-ups via repetition while playing... Umm... Sorry that would fundamentally break Eve. There is no way such a system couyld be incorporated into Eve at this date without redesigning it from scratch. Probably the best you could hope for is hybridize it, where actually "doing" something in game could provide some kind of boost to SP speed while you were doing it, but even that would be pretty iffy and probably impossible to balance.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.15 21:30:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
People still grind for standings gain and earning money and LP, taking away the skilltraining part of it doesn't suddenly make it a grindless game.

You don't really ever have to "grind" at all to make heavy-duty ISK : not one single mission done, not a single unit of ore mined, and you can still make billions of ISK if you _WANT_ to do it that way.
Hell, you don't even have to UNDOCK from the station you're first spawned in (if you selected to start in the station) before you reach several billion in ISK.
If you don't want any grind in EVE, you can play it completely grindless too.


 

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