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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2010.08.04 06:12:00 - [61]
 

The learning skills made sense to me. You could learn to get better at learning.

There is also no force in EVE that forces you to learn the learning skills so all these precious tears that by now form a really big bowl of fail go absolutely nowhere.

You don't like the learning skills? Fine. Don't learn them. How hard was that as a mental exercise?

Not supported.

Emo Dodo
Posted - 2010.08.04 10:06:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
They add nothing to the game, just forcing you to chose between a slow start of the game, or a slow advancement of the game...


The truth!

There's no other way to put it really.

NeoGee
Posted - 2010.08.04 11:13:00 - [63]
 

Learning skills are fine...they give you the idea that you are growing as a char. Without that feeling, Eve would get boring a lot sooner.
What i do suggest is that all characters gain sp no matter which one is training. So when you start with an alt you can divide all the built up sp. That would save time and you could specialize in something entirely different with your alt.

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.08.04 13:39:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: NeoGee
Learning skills are fine...they give you the idea that you are growing as a char. Without that feeling, Eve would get boring a lot sooner.
What i do suggest is that all characters gain sp no matter which one is training. So when you start with an alt you can divide all the built up sp. That would save time and you could specialize in something entirely different with your alt.

Would destroy the character market.

As well how are you going to calculate the rate at wich sp would build up if all 3 character slots have different attributes? And if you are asking for multiple toon training on the same account, I would suggest you look a bit harder on these forums as it has been discussed earlier as well.

Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2010.08.04 15:53:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Vargas Blackburn
Originally by: Miika Finsa
Edited by: Miika Finsa on 03/07/2010 05:19:27
a new character can get all of the learning skills to 4/3 within a week training at double speed.

oh noes.. the horror


Oh yes, training skills that don't add to the enjoyment of the game are a *great* advertisement for the game and not a deterrent for a new player in the least.


That ^^^ and the UI. One chance to make a good impression...

Of the 6 friends I tried to recruit, not one stayed past the trial for two reasons : the perceived necessity of learning skills, and the garbage we call the UI. (Loot windows that inherit their setting from station containers and reposition themselves automagically after being pinned.) Aspects of the game like these really make new players think this game was coded by morons, and my friends stated fairly unanimously that they had no confidence that the back end code was functioning as advertised based upon WYSIWYG factors.

How many more new player detractors does this game need? I know, we don't really want new players, they only cause server lag for existing players...

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2010.08.06 15:31:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 06/08/2010 15:32:57
Quote:
a new character can get all of the learning skills to 4/3 within a week training at double speed.


A week is a long time to a new player. Long-time EVE players seem to forget that most of the people playing MMOs on the internet are used to doing things in internet time. When they realize that they have to wait an entire week before they can even start training anything that adds gameplay, the horror is completely evident.

Learning skills add nothing to the game but "you must wait X days to actually start playing" requirement. It's stupid. Nobody who doesn't want to severely hurt themselves in the long term can avoid getting them, but they delay you being able to get to training things that are fun.

I've been watching dozens of complete newbies to EVE start playing in my corp over the last few weeks, and it's obvious that removing learning would make the starting experience far, far better.

Hysu T'soni
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:25:00 - [67]
 

/signed
Get rid of them.

Amanda Tapping
Posted - 2010.08.06 20:58:00 - [68]
 

You do not have to learn learning skills to play the game. They do not hurt you. What they do offer is additional strategy - I spent the first 3 months of gameplay training them up and now I have a lot more SP because I did it. Another player who started the same time I did considered spaceship skills more important, and he doesn't have as much SP as I do now. This is a good thing, I like games that offer different methods of gameplay with consequences for your actions. If CCP does decide to remove learning skills, they will have made a decision to cater to the stupid - and I will have to find a more intelligent game to play.

Mallui Mallard
Posted - 2010.08.06 22:20:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Amanda Tapping
You do not have to learn learning skills to play the game. They do not hurt you. What they do offer is additional strategy - I spent the first 3 months of gameplay training them up and now I have a lot more SP because I did it. Another player who started the same time I did considered spaceship skills more important, and he doesn't have as much SP as I do now. This is a good thing, I like games that offer different methods of gameplay with consequences for your actions. If CCP does decide to remove learning skills, they will have made a decision to cater to the stupid - and I will have to find a more intelligent game to play.

This sounds just like excuses Creationists use to cover some of the biggest holes on their whole theology. Thinking that God gave you free will so you can choose between loving him and go to heaven and not loving him and going to hell isn't really a choice is it? Choosing between something that benefits you and something that hurts you isn't a choice because humans are hardwired to not hurt themselves.

Don't be silly, there is no 'strategy' on learning skills and it's definitely not a trap to catch stupid. You either learn them or you learn them, there's no two ways about it and as time passes not learning them just hurts you more and more. I'd argue that the most stupid people are the ones who don't see the learning skills as a unnecessary time sink and even try to defend them. You have to be a major league ****** to pay someone in order to receive approval so you can do nothing.

Amanda Tapping
Posted - 2010.08.06 22:44:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Mallui Mallard
Originally by: Amanda Tapping
You do not have to learn learning skills to play the game. They do not hurt you. What they do offer is additional strategy - I spent the first 3 months of gameplay training them up and now I have a lot more SP because I did it. Another player who started the same time I did considered spaceship skills more important, and he doesn't have as much SP as I do now. This is a good thing, I like games that offer different methods of gameplay with consequences for your actions. If CCP does decide to remove learning skills, they will have made a decision to cater to the stupid - and I will have to find a more intelligent game to play.

This sounds just like excuses Creationists use to cover some of the biggest holes on their whole theology. Thinking that God gave you free will so you can choose between loving him and go to heaven and not loving him and going to hell isn't really a choice is it? Choosing between something that benefits you and something that hurts you isn't a choice because humans are hardwired to not hurt themselves.

Don't be silly, there is no 'strategy' on learning skills and it's definitely not a trap to catch stupid. You either learn them or you learn them, there's no two ways about it and as time passes not learning them just hurts you more and more. I'd argue that the most stupid people are the ones who don't see the learning skills as a unnecessary time sink and even try to defend them. You have to be a major league ****** to pay someone in order to receive approval so you can do nothing.


I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve?

No one put a gun to my head and forced me to train up learning skills. Nor did that happen to any of you. Learning skills DO provide strategy to the game, it provides you with a choice to favor long-term rewards over short-term ones. It sounds to me you all want to ***** about not having your skills right now. Go play WoW or watch some **** if you want immediate reward.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.08.06 23:36:00 - [71]
 

No. Leave them.

Morcam
Posted - 2010.08.07 00:58:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Morcam on 07/08/2010 00:59:08
Originally by: Amanda Tapping
I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve?

No one put a gun to my head and forced me to train up learning skills. Nor did that happen to any of you. Learning skills DO provide strategy to the game, it provides you with a choice to favor long-term rewards over short-term ones. It sounds to me you all want to ***** about not having your skills right now. Go play WoW or watch some **** if you want immediate reward.


That's quite a leap of logic. Let me put this very simply. Only short-sighted morons don't train learning skills. Thus they're a waste of time for everyone in EvE. The only people who are actually against this seem to be people who think that because they wasted a month of their time, everyone else should have to too. Not in the slightest. Older players already have an advantage because they're older players. Learning skills shouldn't factor into that. Yeah, I've already got a couple learning at five and all the rest at four. It was a spectacular waste of time for a new player who actually wanted to play the game and advance in it.

Mongo Travler
Posted - 2010.08.07 01:09:00 - [73]
 

as a disclaimer this is not my first account

tl;dr Learning every learning skill to +5 is not optimal and while learning skills do detract some from the new player experience they aren't a huge burden. Telling people to only learn learning I think kills more accounts then the skills themselves.

My new player experience started by me remapping my character to even intel and mem then by doing the beginning tutorial (I know not necessary for me but meh it helps me in creating this characters personality) while I learned cybernetic 1 and filled up the next few hours with learning skills (cause I "didn't" know what I wanted to do yet) then I bought 2 +3 implants and set my character to train minnie industrials 1 and learning. After 1 day I could fly an industrial and had learning, instant recall, and analytic mind to lvl 3. Then I started mining and manufacturing things and after 2 days I had the tier 1 skills at 4 and logic cooking to lvl 3. While at the same time I was having fun exploring the market and doing the carebear missions. By the end of the 1st week I was working on learning 5 and still able to play the game. Learning skills actually helped me stay focused and not waste training time on things I didn't need while I explored what I wanted to do in the game with this character.

As it stands right now I'm almost finished with my skill point boost and am working on engineering skills since with how my character is mapped out I lose time by spending all 1.6 million sp on learning. In about a month I will have most of my science and industry skills leaned as well as a fair amount of engineering and electronics. Then I can remap into a less specialized setting and learn everything else I want in the other areas at a decent pace.

I spent like 9 days doing learning skills & 4 others and I'm doing small time industrial stuff which I can continue to do and grow in without gimping myself too much. TBH it is better to sell a plex and train cybernetics 5 and buy +5's before you ever learn a tier 3 learning skill to +5 I'd rather learn 1 tier 3 to 5 then 5 tier 3's to 5 to get less benefit.

Side note: I would say that anyone who advocates learning all learning skills to +5 before anything else needs to pull their head back from EVEmon and break out the paper and pencil (maybe the math text book if it has been a while) and crunch some numbers and they will quickly find out that they aren't optimizing their time. So please stop scaring off new people even if you don't do what I did you can still play the game in your 1st month without falling too far behind the best skill progression for whatever it is you want to do (which I'm not doing cause I would spend many months learning only engineering, mechanic, and electronics skills instead of doing what I want to do in the game).

Amanda Tapping
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:10:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Morcam
Edited by: Morcam on 07/08/2010 00:59:08
Originally by: Amanda Tapping
I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve?

No one put a gun to my head and forced me to train up learning skills. Nor did that happen to any of you. Learning skills DO provide strategy to the game, it provides you with a choice to favor long-term rewards over short-term ones. It sounds to me you all want to ***** about not having your skills right now. Go play WoW or watch some **** if you want immediate reward.


That's quite a leap of logic. Let me put this very simply. Only short-sighted morons don't train learning skills. Thus they're a waste of time for everyone in EvE. The only people who are actually against this seem to be people who think that because they wasted a month of their time, everyone else should have to too. Not in the slightest. Older players already have an advantage because they're older players. Learning skills shouldn't factor into that. Yeah, I've already got a couple learning at five and all the rest at four. It was a spectacular waste of time for a new player who actually wanted to play the game and advance in it.


If they are a waste of time, why did you train them? Again, no one is forcing you to do anything. The skills are there, train them or don't. The skills do factor into whether or not old players have more SP or not. You will never have the ability or power that a 5 year old player does. No matter how much you whine or nerf the system nothing will ever change that. I think what you all are trying to do is set up a system where everyone gains SP at the same rate. That's stupid. Go play a carebear game. Not only do I enjoy playing this game the way it is, but it's the only one of it's kind. Stop trying to break it.

Amanda Tapping
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:18:00 - [75]
 

Maybe they could make a seperate game server for you guys. They could call it "Soviet Socialist EVE". Everyone has the same attributes and SP gain. There would be a mandatory tax on all players which is redistributed to the poor at the end of every month, and everyone gets a free hulk as their first ship.

Skarfase
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:51:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Skarfase on 07/08/2010 02:51:53
I'm just glad I did my learnings. Don't care much about new players.

Morcam
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:59:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Amanda Tapping

If they are a waste of time, why did you train them? Again, no one is forcing you to do anything. The skills are there, train them or don't. The skills do factor into whether or not old players have more SP or not. You will never have the ability or power that a 5 year old player does. No matter how much you whine or nerf the system nothing will ever change that. I think what you all are trying to do is set up a system where everyone gains SP at the same rate. That's stupid. Go play a carebear game. Not only do I enjoy playing this game the way it is, but it's the only one of it's kind. Stop trying to break it.

The funniest part of this post is that I'm a five year old player.

You keep putting learnings up like they're some kind of option. Every new player has to train learnings if they want to compete in EvE in some reasonable amount of time. And since new players will never have the same SP as an old player, what's the problem with getting rid of learnings? The old players have all trained them, and the new players are just having to waste a week on nothing productive.

Your statement about "I think what you all are trying to do is set up a system where everyone gains SP at the same rate." is exceptionally ironic. Players a month old and players five years old already gain SP at the same rate.

Apparently wanting to prevent new players from having to sit around not training anything useful makes me a soviet **** neo-communist. Or maybe you're just trolling.

Amanda Tapping
Posted - 2010.08.07 03:14:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Morcam
Originally by: Amanda Tapping

If they are a waste of time, why did you train them? Again, no one is forcing you to do anything. The skills are there, train them or don't. The skills do factor into whether or not old players have more SP or not. You will never have the ability or power that a 5 year old player does. No matter how much you whine or nerf the system nothing will ever change that. I think what you all are trying to do is set up a system where everyone gains SP at the same rate. That's stupid. Go play a carebear game. Not only do I enjoy playing this game the way it is, but it's the only one of it's kind. Stop trying to break it.

The funniest part of this post is that I'm a five year old player.

You keep putting learnings up like they're some kind of option. Every new player has to train learnings if they want to compete in EvE in some reasonable amount of time. And since new players will never have the same SP as an old player, what's the problem with getting rid of learnings? The old players have all trained them, and the new players are just having to waste a week on nothing productive.

Your statement about "I think what you all are trying to do is set up a system where everyone gains SP at the same rate." is exceptionally ironic. Players a month old and players five years old already gain SP at the same rate.

Apparently wanting to prevent new players from having to sit around not training anything useful makes me a soviet **** neo-communist. Or maybe you're just trolling.


No one month player gains SP at the same rate as a 5 year old player because they cant train all the learning skills to 5 that fast.

Unless the 5 year old player is a ****** that never trained learning skills.

Sir, you are a moron. I am ending this conversation. For a time, I thought I was playing a game designed for intelligent people. I guess I was wrong. If all of you want to **** it up, go ahead.

Happy Lady
Posted - 2010.08.07 05:18:00 - [79]
 

I'm not against learning skills, but maybe reducing them to 1 tier would be good. Drop the first tier entirely and make tier 2 a 2x skill not 3x.

There is a huge disparity between 0/0 and 5/4 that I think could warrant a change.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.08.07 06:03:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Amanda Tapping
Maybe they could make a seperate game server for you guys. They could call it "Soviet Socialist EVE". Everyone has the same attributes and SP gain. There would be a mandatory tax on all players which is redistributed to the poor at the end of every month, and everyone gets a free hulk as their first ship.


Best commentary I've seen in a long time on the "remove learning skills" crowd. The demands for compensation like improved stats confirm the "entitled yet equal" mentality. Please continue to resist this nonsense CCP.

Gray Pawn
Posted - 2010.08.07 10:05:00 - [81]
 

I got 5/5/5 across all my characters so I don't really care either way.

I'm sure the Devs can ask the DB people how many characters over 3 months old still don't have the learning skills well trained. If there's a large number who don't, then keep learning skills. If that number is very small, then get rid of them...for obvious reasons.

I'm more interested in finding out why people get so heated over this topic. "OMG taking away learning skills is socialism!!!" Yeah, and distributing asteroids in every system is socialism too. Give me a break. Rolling Eyes

Theron Khan
Viziam
Posted - 2010.08.07 10:10:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Theron Khan on 07/08/2010 10:11:27
My vote:
-Learning skills out
-Attributes added by default (in character creation) as if you had all learning skills to 5.

The bonus from the skill "Learning" would be gone, however the time you'd save not training the others would outweigh it.

Melech Firesnake
Posted - 2010.08.08 06:13:00 - [83]
 

Learning Skills are useless.
They are only here for frsutration.
You must train them but they are useless.
I think there is already enough difficulty to choose what to level up at first in this game without learnng skills.

Morcam
Posted - 2010.08.09 00:49:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Morcam on 09/08/2010 00:50:16
Originally by: Amanda Tapping
No one month player gains SP at the same rate as a 5 year old player because they cant train all the learning skills to 5 that fast.

Unless the 5 year old player is a ****** that never trained learning skills.

Sir, you are a moron. I am ending this conversation. For a time, I thought I was playing a game designed for intelligent people. I guess I was wrong. If all of you want to **** it up, go ahead.

The difference between learnings at five and learnings at four is minimal. It takes years to make up the time anyways. So yeah, month-old players and five year old players already train at essentially the same rate. Implants might make a difference, but with the LP stores it's not very large.

Learnings are an outdated mechanic for a time gone by. Stop trying to drag new players down. EvE has advanced along with its players, and learning skills are no exception.

China Chinchin
Posted - 2010.08.09 00:54:00 - [85]
 

I love it how there is never any evidence that CCP even reads the suggestions forum.

Avion Saberis
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.10 09:44:00 - [86]
 

ya know maybe i'm the odd ball, but when i do the skill training for learning, i don't go all out. Instead i do some of the skill training while doing some other skills in the mix. Whats really keeping most ppl from enjoying the game with learning skills is actually that they believe that they have to max them out early on, which is not true. Do it over time, get some nice ships and modules in the process but don't kill yourself over it. Maybe i am the odd ball but hey, if you want to grind you brain into the wall, thats your choice.


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