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blankseplocked So why is everyone assuming learning skills are going away?
 
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KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.07.02 18:30:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Chir Ishi
Originally by: KaarBaak

That's 10 days of training.

All pilots enter the game with sufficient skills to fly a frigate and a mining ship. That seems sufficient free skills to begin the game. There's no reason for a new pilot to sit in station. CCP allows you to fly on minute 1.

I vote no.

KB



10 Day's of training skills... While many of us have grown to love spreadsheet's online, a new player may not find an increase from "980 to 1700" very interesting. This does not sell copies of the game.

How about 10 days of new modules, higher tech, awesome missions, cheep pvp.. 10 days of pure fun.

Chilling out in your tech 1 mining ship for 10 days is not fun (unless you are warped).


You missed something.

KB

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.07.02 19:21:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 02/07/2010 19:33:52
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Chir Ishi
Originally by: KaarBaak

That's 10 days of training.

All pilots enter the game with sufficient skills to fly a frigate and a mining ship. That seems sufficient free skills to begin the game. There's no reason for a new pilot to sit in station. CCP allows you to fly on minute 1.

I vote no.

KB



10 Day's of training skills... While many of us have grown to love spreadsheet's online, a new player may not find an increase from "980 to 1700" very interesting. This does not sell copies of the game.

How about 10 days of new modules, higher tech, awesome missions, cheep pvp.. 10 days of pure fun.

Chilling out in your tech 1 mining ship for 10 days is not fun (unless you are warped).


You missed something.

KB

Well if you mean he missed flying in the frigates then its no different than mining really. Granted the npc shoot back but its still as mind numbing as can be with the low bounties and such that a noobie in a frigate seeding learning skills into his queue can handle. And as far as pvp well a noob in a frigate is a dead noob in short order unless he is running with some blobby gang so noone bothers to primary him. Learning skills in no way add to the new player experience in a positive manner that the useful skills don't already cover.

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Magnus Orin
They serve an almost identical function to learning skills.

I don't really understand how you could be against learning skills, but not remaps and implants.

It seems to me that they either all go, or they all stay.
Remaps and implants are limited in other ways, and require all of one rank 3 skill between them (which you only need to train to lvl 1 to gain most of the benefits) a skill that also provides vast in-game benefits beyond the meta-game ones you get through the attribute implants.
Don't forget that new booster that was found in the sisi database that gives a +3 to all attributes. That could easily be the way for the pilots who feel that the learning skills are part of the overall pvp game to get their 'edge' in sp.

ZeJesus
Posted - 2010.07.02 19:24:00 - [63]
 

Cause it's obivous.

Aldee
Federated Holdings
Posted - 2010.07.02 20:31:00 - [64]
 

Best not to listen to every random comment CCP made at a fanfest or any other meeting because about 95% of the time it comes to nothing.

I dont mind the learning skills staying or going (though I would prefer them to stay). I wont cry if they go away as long as I get the sp back.

Frankly all this crying over 10 skills in game is silly cause they make up less then 2% of all the skills in game. If you dont like training skills then Eve isnt the game for you.

And before someone replys that they add nothing I would disagree.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.07.02 20:46:00 - [65]
 

There was another long debate thread so not too much rehash from me.

One point though...I played with eve mon and it looks like if the skills were replaced by base attributes 10 poionts higher to simulate 5-5 skills it would cut the training time of a nice disposable gank thrasher pilot(pertinent skills to 3's and 4's) from 10 days to about 6 ...

... i'm not sure how that type of high sec ganker pilot's thoughts work, but it would certainly help them.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.07.02 21:33:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Aldee
And before someone replys that they add nothing I would disagree.
They add nothing. You can read why I think so in this thread so why don't you go ahead and tell us in detail why you disagree.

RaWBLooD
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:32:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Aldee
And before someone replys that they add nothing I would disagree.
They add nothing. You can read why I think so in this thread so why don't you go ahead and tell us in detail why you disagree.

Can you give a short and clear reason why you don't believe planning learning skills is strategy?

In the first month you can train pretty far up with level 1-2 learning skills and no implants, how long do those take to get level 2? You can fly cruisers, retrievers, industrials, or even become a really good manufacturer, why would learning skills hinder you from getting those basics out of the way first?

You still haven't given an example of anything that let's you specialize without severe diminishing returns over a year in anything. Pirate battleships are about the only thing that come to mind and it hurts when you lose them.

Bodrul
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:34:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Chribba
Originally by: Zeba
So if ccp decides to remove learning skills then everyone is happy which is a pretty goddamn rare thing in eve.
Everyone happy? I seriously doubt that will ever happen. Pilots would go - "ffs I spent 2 months training Learning when I could have had FUN! Worst change ever!"


and taking into account the Millions and even billions of Isk spent on the skill books in the first place, i would be one of the people complaining O_o



CausticS0da
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:36:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Bodrul
Originally by: Chribba
Originally by: Zeba
So if ccp decides to remove learning skills then everyone is happy which is a pretty goddamn rare thing in eve.
Everyone happy? I seriously doubt that will ever happen. Pilots would go - "ffs I spent 2 months training Learning when I could have had FUN! Worst change ever!"


and taking into account the Millions and even billions of Isk spent on the skill books in the first place, i would be one of the people complaining O_o





Billions of isk on skillbooks? No. And it's a pretty weak attitude if you want others to suffer the initial boredom of training learning skills when they start the game. I almost quit when I started due to this and to call spending a month or so training that garbage 'strategic' is laughable- if you think this would 'dumb-down' eve then I'm sorry, you are too dumb yourself to be listened to.

Its purpose initially was most likely a time sink to 'pad out' the limited skills available when eve first shipped. We are getting to the stage now where they are no longer needed for this purpose:
Add +10 (or less) to all player atributes, refund the skillpoints and finally be done with it. The longer this remains unresolved the worse it will get.

CCP loses customers to the boredom of new players feeling obligated to learn learning skills. Remove this mechanic so we can bring in new people to shoot.

IF CCP does use this as a start of making the game 'easy' (akin to Blizzard's strategy) however, I will cancel my EVE subscription immediately. Learning skills aren't about that, they are just a relic of 'padding' that game designers were forced to include to give the game more immersion and longevity in its infancy.

Do it CCP!Razz

Aldee
Federated Holdings
Posted - 2010.07.03 02:33:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Aldee
And before someone replys that they add nothing I would disagree.
They add nothing. You can read why I think so in this thread so why don't you go ahead and tell us in detail why you disagree.


Easy they add to and improve your character like all skills do in game. The point behind skills in game is to improve your char over time and the learning skills do that.

Xzar Fyrarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:31:00 - [71]
 

So.... when does EvE die ?
Memorial service?
Fuzzy casket?

Zarioh
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:50:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Chribba
Originally by: Zeba
So if ccp decides to remove learning skills then everyone is happy which is a pretty goddamn rare thing in eve.
Everyone happy? I seriously doubt that will ever happen. Pilots would go - "ffs I spent 2 months training Learning when I could have had FUN! Worst change ever!"


That could be true,
But, they could reimburse the amount of skillpoints u used while u trained the skill , like they did to the last patch, when we all got 100K skillpoints , just to add to any skill

most ppl that has skilled their learning skill would be happy too, cause they get a great reward from it..., so it was worth their time and patience =)

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:00:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Mathias Black on 03/07/2010 06:00:30
Originally by: RaWBLooD

Can you give a short and clear reason why you don't believe planning learning skills is strategy?



It's not strategy because it's blindingly obvious that you HAVE to train them if you plan on staying more than a few months, and so everyone does it, all of them exactly the same. If every single player of a game is doing the exact same thing there's no strategy. If the only choices are "do this and be normal or don't do this and suck at everything" then there's no strategy. I don't see how you think there IS strategy. You say "you can train them with other stuff and it's not too terrible", but that has nothing to do with whether something is strategic or interesting.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:06:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
There was another long debate thread so not too much rehash from me.

One point though...I played with eve mon and it looks like if the skills were replaced by base attributes 10 poionts higher to simulate 5-5 skills it would cut the training time of a nice disposable gank thrasher pilot(pertinent skills to 3's and 4's) from 10 days to about 6 ...

... i'm not sure how that type of high sec ganker pilot's thoughts work, but it would certainly help them.


Eve's character creation has changed a bunch of times since it started. The number of skill points have changed, the races have changes, the skills have changed, they added the double time bonus, they added skill points, removed them, added more, buffed the races, added asian races, nerfed some races, made every race equal. Through all that time, nothing hugely terrible happened and the game went on as usual. So I don't think CCP is afraid of things like the exact number of days to make a particular alt, and I don't think it will affect the game nearly as much as some people seem to be worried about.

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:08:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black
and so everyone does it, all of them exactly the same. If every single player of a game is doing the exact same thing there's no strategy.


You have said repeatedly that you have 5/5 learning skills. I do not. We didn't choose to do things exactly the same. We obviously value those last attribute points differently. You like to speak for everyone a lot, don't you?

Yavanna Akallabeth
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:29:00 - [76]
 

I hated the time spent on learning skills and that was before Q

get rid of it asap and give me back my SP!

This is an alt, too lazy to login with the main.

Liam Fremen
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.03 13:23:00 - [77]
 


When i started playing back in 2004 adv learning were not existing, then the advanced learning arrived and they required lvl5 of the basic one, after some time they reduced the pre-requisite to lvl4 of the basic one.

All of these changes were welcomed by drama bombs.

In the end i look at a new player, i spent 6 years + of playing and skilling for reaching what i can do now with my toon, for a new player it's like a nightmare to think about spending 6 years for doing the same things i can do.

It's ok to remove the learning and give back the raw SP used, and at same time let's just give everyone +10 to all basic attributes, problem solved who cares.

You can't whine that "i spent 1 month there where i could had fun" who cares if they give back your SP and max your learning? you get 2/3/4m sp back to use in something else without training time, it means a free racial cruiser 5, or a boring carrier 5 or similar things coming out from no-where without waiting 1/3 months, for me is good.

Dr Lebroi
Posted - 2010.07.03 14:00:00 - [78]
 

All games/clubs etc need a good influx of new blood to replace the natural wasteage of people moving on. This is just to maintain equilibrium, in order to grow, even more players must be attracted. CCP is clearly trying to grow Eve, which I believe is a good thing.

They spend lots of money on expansions and associated marketing campaigns to grow the player base. At the moment a good chunk of this effort is wasted due to an outdated and unnecessary game mechanic i.e. learning skills. I'm guessing that a large percentage of the fresh 'footfall' (trial accounts and website visits) that are created by marketing are never converted into subscribers.

A good chunk of these potential customers may well be driven away by the concept of a month of training strange skills that unlock no fresh content for them and do not appear to improve their characters ability to interact with the Eve universe.

All this may please those with an elitist nature but be assured, Eve is hard core enough without the learning skills, it is still, by a mile, the deepest darkest game out there and learning skills really add nothing to the mix. All they do is drive off new blood.

At some point a new game is going to come along and vie for Eve's crown. All the developers of this game will need to do is steal Eve's strengths and avoid it's weaknesses. At that point Eve will surely die and the elitist few thousand who wanted to set stupidly high barriers to participation will be left floating around in space till they shut down the servers.

Embrace the future - Embrace Eve 2.0


Khin'charin
Incidental Damage
Posted - 2010.07.03 15:27:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: CausticS0da
CCP loses customers to the boredom of new players feeling obligated to learn learning skills. Remove this mechanic so we can bring in new people to shoot.

IF CCP does use this as a start of making the game 'easy' (akin to Blizzard's strategy) however, I will cancel my EVE subscription immediately. Learning skills aren't about that, they are just a relic of 'padding' that game designers were forced to include to give the game more immersion and longevity in its infancy.

Do it CCP!Razz


QFT

RaWBLooD
Posted - 2010.07.26 22:59:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black
Edited by: Mathias Black on 03/07/2010 06:00:30
Originally by: RaWBLooD

Can you give a short and clear reason why you don't believe planning learning skills is strategy?



It's not strategy because it's blindingly obvious that you HAVE to train them if you plan on staying more than a few months, and so everyone does it, all of them exactly the same. If every single player of a game is doing the exact same thing there's no strategy. If the only choices are "do this and be normal or don't do this and suck at everything" then there's no strategy. I don't see how you think there IS strategy. You say "you can train them with other stuff and it's not too terrible", but that has nothing to do with whether something is strategic or interesting.

Do you consider that training all the basic learning skills to 2 and training something to make isk right away or not training them at all and getting a lot of isk in that first month is not strategy?

Why should attributes not be removed absolutely?

Orimei
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:38:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: RaWBLooD

Why should attributes not be removed absolutely?


Why not indeed?
Another game which is in beta right now lets you accumulate SP over time which you use to buy skills with later.

So no "****, I forgot to queue a skill during downtime" ever.

This system is however even more detrimental to logging in at all cause there is no need to change skills.

Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:49:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Scott McClellan on 26/07/2010 23:49:48
Originally by: RaWBLooD
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Aldee
And before someone replys that they add nothing I would disagree.
They add nothing. You can read why I think so in this thread so why don't you go ahead and tell us in detail why you disagree.

Can you give a short and clear reason why you don't believe planning learning skills is strategy?



Because it is mandatory.

Here, I'll give you some examples of more "strategies"

Using drones on ships that have drone bays
Running missiles in a Drake
Using a MWD in fleet operations

It ceases being strategy when everyone is effectively forced to do it. The above three are just common sense, as is training the learnings. Which just means +2months to grind for everyone.

Viva Che
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:05:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Scott McClellan
Edited by: Scott McClellan on 26/07/2010 23:49:48
Originally by: RaWBLooD
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Aldee
And before someone replys that they add nothing I would disagree.
They add nothing. You can read why I think so in this thread so why don't you go ahead and tell us in detail why you disagree.

Can you give a short and clear reason why you don't believe planning learning skills is strategy?



Because it is mandatory.

Here, I'll give you some examples of more "strategies"

Using drones on ships that have drone bays
Running missiles in a Drake
Using a MWD in fleet operations

It ceases being strategy when everyone is effectively forced to do it. The above three are just common sense, as is training the learnings. Which just means +2months to grind for everyone.


Quoted for truth and justice.

Kill the learning skills please.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:11:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 27/07/2010 01:16:49
Originally by: Optical Illusion
Originally by: Obyrith
Originally by: Optical Illusion
The Skills are there, and until the day ccp remove them they will be. Deal with it.
X=1, except where X<>1. QED.


Obviously i have no idea what your talking about. After re reading my post i agree the grammer isnt brilliant, along with my spelling. however i will not be satisfying your troll with an edit.


I am pretty sure that pointing out tautological nonsense doesn't qualify as a "troll", in the strictest sense of the word.

With that said, now that there's apparently a way to refund SPs, count me in with the death-to-learning-skills crowd, and I'm saying that as someone with maxed learning skills. Go ahead and refund those SPs, adjust the baseline stats, and send me on my way. I will happily dump those SPs into something else.

They just don't provide the game with any real, appreciable value. All of the arguments for keeping them seem to bear a close resemblance to, "Oh yeah? Well I had to walk two miles, uphill both ways, with an onion on my belt!"

Yes, I had to suffer through them just like every other "veteran", but making the new players of today suffer through them does not grant any benefit to me. On the contrary, I think making new players suffer through them is very much to my personal detriment. More people = good.

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:44:00 - [85]
 

I can hardly wait until CCP lets us buy Skill Points...

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.07.27 02:19:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: BrundleMeth
I can hardly wait until CCP lets us buy Skill Points...


That expansion will be named "EvE: Ghost Town"

KB

Napro
Caldari
Simplistic Syndicate
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2010.07.27 02:28:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: BrundleMeth
I can hardly wait until CCP lets us buy Skill Points...


That expansion will be named "EvE: Ghost Town"

KB



but..but.. eve vets constantly harass noobies with the "SPs means nothing" troll

could it be that SPs do, in fact, mean something? IdeaIdeaIdeaQuestionQuestionQuestion

Viva Che
Posted - 2010.07.27 02:46:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: BrundleMeth
Hyperbolic staw-man...


Butthurt vet continues hyperbole




I see what you two did there.

Slick O'Hara
Morshu's Palace of Pain
Posted - 2010.07.27 05:01:00 - [89]
 

I hope this happens sooner than December dammit, I want that SP to put into some nice things.

Has anyone ever introduced someone to the game, told them about learning skills and heard them say 'wow that's a nice feature, a strategic gameplay element to keep me a head above the competition'. They typically want to blow stuff up and make some money, all of which is quicker and easier in a 21 day trial without mandatory learning skills.

Just remove the skills, refund the SP and let the bawwers baw as they always do.

democrities
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.07.27 05:17:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Slick O'Hara
I hope this happens sooner than December dammit, I want that SP to put into some nice things.

Has anyone ever introduced someone to the game, told them about learning skills and heard them say 'wow that's a nice feature, a strategic gameplay element to keep me a head above the competition'. They typically want to blow stuff up and make some money, all of which is quicker and easier in a 21 day trial without mandatory learning skills.

Just remove the skills, refund the SP and let the bawwers baw as they always do.



It isnt happening. Its nothing but baseless speculation. Learning skills arent going anywhere.


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