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blankseplocked 100% skill training bonus is utter **** CCP
 
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Zergliing
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:29:00 - [1]
 

I recently pick up eve off of steam. I read around these forums, to find out how to improve my character. Alot of people said to use eve-mon, and plan for what I want to do. So put in a plan to use the tempest, with large guns and drones and some other things.

The plan according to eft was to take 135 days or so, but it said i could speed up the training to 70-something days with these learning skills, so i told evemon to add them. But for them to be effective i need to do them first.


So if i were to train this plan all of my 'training bonus' would go to these learning skills, and if i were to leave out the learning skills it would take almost twice as long to get where i want to be. SO really it seems that the 100% bonus doesnt help you get into ships at all, its there so i can train these goddamn learning skills for 2-3 weeks (well half that with this stupid 'bonus').

So my first 2 weeks in game I can train a few skills fast and then have to wait twice as long to get into what i want, or I can just sit on my hands for 2 weeks while my traning speed gets up to 100%.


So IMO the 'training bonus' is there so we can train the learning skills, so after the 'bonus' is up we can train at normal speed

SO its not a bonus, it just lets you train at your normal speed as if you already had trained the learning skills, so you can train the learning skills at a somewhat faster pace. Which really doent help much, as your first 2 weeks you are left sitting on your hands.


I petitioned CCP about this, and they suggested I train ship skills or something. Which was just insulting. I pay for time in this game, why would I want to waste my paid for time training things twice as slow, I mean its good for ccp if i train ships and dont do learning, i effectively have to pay double for each skill I train. If i do learning I get to sit on my hands and do almost nothing for 2 weeks. Either way CCP wins, and I lose.


So just as a warining to any new player:
"The 100% bonus is NOT a bonus, you start the game training at 50% speed, which CCP make 100% until you can get your character to train at its full speed, that means a full two weeks of sitting on your hands while paying CCP"

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:38:00 - [2]
 

How many SP does it take to train basics to 4, advanced to 3?

(Hint: less than 1.6M - enough less that you can skill up to fly a rifter well enough to start making ISK...)

Talonyc a'Tsuj
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:38:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Talonyc a''Tsuj on 01/07/2010 18:38:37

Unfortunately there's little could be done now, I guess. I also consider the Learning skills serious deterrents.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:41:00 - [4]
 

Keep subscribing, login every few days to update your learning skills, come play after 2 months or so.

Zergliing
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:49:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
How many SP does it take to train basics to 4, advanced to 3?

(Hint: less than 1.6M - enough less that you can skill up to fly a rifter well enough to start making ISK...)


It would probably take a week, but only an idiot would waste their time training skills at a slower speed, and even if you spent your first days towards ship stuff the learning skills would just be a speed bump to hit later, that you have to hit before your 'training bonus' ends.

Either way you have a week or so worth of time in your first month where you have to dedicate the time to goddamn learning skills. Thats a week of game time ive paid for that Im forced to waste, and really who the **** is going to train everything at base or near base attribs after the 'bonus' ends. Nobody.

The learning skills are forced down our throats, and CCP doesn't give a **** if we have to wait or not, they already have our money so they dont give a ****. You would think they would want new players to get into the game quickly, and stay in for the long term. But they setup a huge speedbump, which any new player has to go over, or just leave. But CCP doesn't care either way they got your money for at least a month

Zergliing
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:59:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Talonyc a'Tsuj
Edited by: Talonyc a''Tsuj on 01/07/2010 18:38:37

Unfortunately there's little could be done now, I guess. I also consider the Learning skills serious deterrents.


Little that can be done? More like little that CCP can be ****ed to do.

Why cant they just give us the skills at the start? I know they can do it because my toon started with a few skills, but they cant be ****ed.

They could also stop lying about the skill 'bonus' and just put it plainly "Players starting the game will get x amount of normal speed training time to train the l;earning skills so they can train at normal speed" or something. I mean its more insulting to hear them call it a bonus, when you know that 'bonus' speed is just the regualr speed with learning skills trained.


There alot that CCP can do, and can do easily. And the problem just speaks of laziness on CCP part to fix the issue, I mean who cares about 'n00bs' right? We will just add some more shiny stuff to keep them coming, they are paying us anyways right? If they get ****ed off give them a special shuttle or something, that will make them stfu.

Glyph Stex
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Glyph Stex on 01/07/2010 19:21:42
To OP.

Dude, stop *****ing. Eve-online is Eve-online. Take it or leave it. You paid what? 1.99 for the game account and a month of playtime? That's what I did on Steam. Even if you paid the normal 19.99, the game has things to keep you entertained until your learning skills are done.

I've been playing my Steam bought account for 3 days and I've got half of them to level 3 or 4.

Edit: Them as in my learning skills.

Seriously. Stop ****ting.

~Glyph

DoAe
Caldari
Omega Engineering Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:34:00 - [8]
 

You are missing something in your hate-speach towards ccp =P

The 100% bonus is for 1.6 mil sp.
The learning skills if you skip charisma will give your char a total around 1.7 mil sp.

This takes with 100% bonus around a lot less then 2 weeks to train.
You just have to fly some lvl 1 mission to earn the more expensive skill books (or ask friend to buy them for you)

CCP gives you a free trial period for 2 weeks, in wich, all the learning skills can be trained if u put some effort in to it.
What ccp really is doing, if you look at it, is letting you train the learning skills during a free period of time.
So when the time comes for you to start paying for your account you are done with the learning skills and can start going off in whatever branch you want.

So don't go around saying that CCP are stealing ur money for the first 2 weeks when they have given you a choice to use the trial period.

But i can agree with you to this: That if the trial is somewhat only for the learning skills then they could just skip the learning skills and set all attributes to a higher base (or lower the skills needed sp / level)

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:50:00 - [9]
 

Yes, learning skills suck, and they are a terrible deterrent to new players. Hope CCP does something about this, and better sooner than later.

ROXGenghis
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:01:00 - [10]
 

Troll successful.

Sable Moran
Gallente
Moran Light Industries
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:16:00 - [11]
 

I was about to write a post to explain how we have ended in the current model of character creation and early development and how to use the 100% bonus system wisely and everything.

But then I realised that I can sum all that up with one easily remembered phrase:

Don't never ever let the skill points come between you and the fun. Ever.

There, problem solved.

Zergliing
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:24:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Sable Moran
I was about to write a post to explain how we have ended in the current model of character creation and early development and how to use the 100% bonus system wisely and everything.

But then I realised that I can sum all that up with one easily remembered phrase:

Don't never ever let the skill points come between you and the fun. Ever.

There, problem solved.


I havent found anything like I really like yet, but I love getting into new ships, and if new toys are your fun then you are limited by SP, and training skills slower means fewer toys that I can fly. So skills points are the barrier between me and the 'fun'.

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:26:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Sable Moran
I was about to write a post to explain how we have ended in the current model of character creation and early development and how to use the 100% bonus system wisely and everything.

But then I realised that I can sum all that up with one easily remembered phrase:

Don't never ever let the skill points come between you and the fun. Ever.

There, problem solved.

The reason we are here now is because people ***** too much.

Luru Parz
Dark Guard Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
Yes, learning skills suck, and they are a terrible deterrent to new players. Hope CCP does something about this, and better sooner than later.


Guess what, they're not compulsory. If you don't want to train them don't.

Zergliing
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:40:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Luru Parz
Originally by: Party Scout
Yes, learning skills suck, and they are a terrible deterrent to new players. Hope CCP does something about this, and better sooner than later.


Guess what, they're not compulsory. If you don't want to train them don't.


They are compulsory, unless you have some kind of mental deficiency, Seriously there is too much waiting in this game as it is, why would you want to force yourself to have to wait even longer to be able to do anything.

Brutus Armani
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:45:00 - [16]
 

Cheese with your whine?

JTDaBeast
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:57:00 - [17]
 

Training at Normal Speed? That's funny. IMO there is no "normal speed". It's an RPG, everyone is different and will learn at his/her own speed as they see fit. It think you're being a bit dramatic (understatement). If you don't want to waste a whole lot of time with learning skills. . . get them to 4/3 and forget about them. I've been playing for just about 3 months now. . . and though I can't T2 the ship I'm piloting. . . . I'm still having fun. If you're not "having fun", then play another game. Sorry bro.

Sable Moran
Gallente
Moran Light Industries
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Zergliing
Originally by: Luru Parz
Originally by: Party Scout
Yes, learning skills suck, and they are a terrible deterrent to new players. Hope CCP does something about this, and better sooner than later.


Guess what, they're not compulsory. If you don't want to train them don't.


They are compulsory, unless you have some kind of mental deficiency, Seriously there is too much waiting in this game as it is, why would you want to force yourself to have to wait even longer to be able to do anything.


LulZ?

Perhaps it's time for you to consider the fact that eve just might not be the game for you and move on?

Why cause yourself more mental anguish when there is an easy solution to the problem?

Sable Moran
Gallente
Moran Light Industries
Posted - 2010.07.01 21:11:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Sable Moran on 01/07/2010 21:11:46
Originally by: Zergliing
Originally by: Sable Moran
I was about to write a post to explain how we have ended in the current model of character creation and early development and how to use the 100% bonus system wisely and everything.

But then I realised that I can sum all that up with one easily remembered phrase:

Don't never ever let the skill points come between you and the fun. Ever.

There, problem solved.


I havent found anything like I really like yet, but I love getting into new ships, and if new toys are your fun then you are limited by SP, and training skills slower means fewer toys that I can fly. So skills points are the barrier between me and the 'fun'.


OK, let's try to be a bit more constructive here.

I can understand the allure of new shiny, I do indulge on it myself now and again. But that wears out quick, then you'll want new shiny and you're in an endless loop. You better break out now while you still can.

I suggest you try finding out what you can do with the stuff you all ready have the skills for. One big step towards that is joining a corp. Don't know which one? Just shop around. Or if that isn't for you try Eve University or maybe Agony.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.01 22:19:00 - [20]
 

So, train what you want to train at really slow speed because your stats suck, or train for 2 months or so to get your stats up to spec so you can train what you want at reasonable speed.

Choose between getting stuff really slow, or get nothing for a long time so you can then get your stuff faster...

That is not a choice that new players should be forced to make. Say what you want, but no, that is not the way to design a game.

And yes, I have 5-4 on my training skills and learning to 5, and I still feel for the new players. I cannot find it in my heart to tell them to "suck it up". Why? Because I remember the boring grind it was training for those learning skills and being there able to do squat while those things get trained.

Bad game mechanic is bad.

Gerrards
Posted - 2010.07.01 22:42:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Zergliing

I petitioned CCP about this


Rolling Eyes

Vynel Mortes
Posted - 2010.07.01 22:43:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Vynel Mortes on 01/07/2010 22:44:03
So by learning the learning skills to the appropraite level you end up saving half the time on the skills you want to learn. Wow that sounds like an excellent use of points in the early stages. 50-100% return on your time investiment the only thing you can't grind in eve.

So what's the issue?

Vargas Blackburn
Gallente
EVE University
Posted - 2010.07.02 00:24:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Vargas Blackburn on 02/07/2010 01:16:04
I do have to agree with the OP to a certain extent. According to EveMon, it's going to take around ~40 days for me to get all the learning skills up to 5/4. To a newer player, this is quite the deterrent. I tried this game out last year and quit once I started doing the calculations - I simply found another game to play, got addicted and started wondering why I should pay $15 a month to just train useless, uninteresting skills for the first 2 months or so. The only reason I am putting up with it this time around is a few of my family members are playing...the monotony is more bearable that way I guess.

CCP would benefit from removing the learning skills and just adding +10 to all attributes. Those that already trained these skills could get refunded their full SP. This would make 90% of the playerbase, both old and new, happy. The other 10% that make up most MMORPGS will complain about any change regardless of whether it benefits them or not.

And yes, not deterring newer players is the only way an MMORPG can grow. More new players = more subscriptions = more content for everyone that's playing. I am not saying change the game at all - just the learning skills.

Looby Loo
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.02 02:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Zergliing
Originally by: Sable Moran
I was about to write a post to explain how we have ended in the current model of character creation and early development and how to use the 100% bonus system wisely and everything.

But then I realised that I can sum all that up with one easily remembered phrase:

Don't never ever let the skill points come between you and the fun. Ever.

There, problem solved.


I havent found anything like I really like yet, but I love getting into new ships, and if new toys are your fun then you are limited by SP, and training skills slower means fewer toys that I can fly. So skills points are the barrier between me and the 'fun'.


Most of us had to grind all that crap without the 100% speed bonus so it really is a bonus. Also I noticed the other night that I still don't have learning 4 on a 30mill SP char. Seeing as it will only actually save me 9 hours on a 50 day plan I'm not that fussed.
Your battleship plan will need a neural remap halfway through to pick up the necessary support skills anyway.
Spend the first couple of weeks training things that mean you can get out and have fun, then set the plan and do the learning skills it advises.

Hack Harrison
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.02 03:30:00 - [25]
 

Waaaahhh...

1) You should be using the time early on to LEARN about Eve - so you know how to play the game

2) You can train the learning skill and rank 1s to 4, the rank 3s to 3 and cybernetics so you can get an implant set in your head and still have 100% bonus left for some other stuff. It's up to you if you want to push your SP per hour over 2000 (assuming an even remap) or not. You trade off something better now for better long term.

3) How about you plan to use something a bit smaller and work your way up. I would bet that just because evemon says you can use the ship and modules you selected, you won't be able to fly it anyway due to fitting requirements (CPU/PG) and cap stability issues anyway!!!

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.07.02 05:59:00 - [26]
 

Whne I started 3 or was it 4 years ago (with trinity anyway) all we had was 800k of skills picked by race, bloodline and profession (gallente gallente, immigrant, black ops in my case) and none of this 100% speed and remapping crap and attributed had to be decided on the spot when you made the character.

XIII'th
Posted - 2010.07.02 06:28:00 - [27]
 

It's not 100% bonus what is broken, whole conception of learning skill stinks.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.02 06:44:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Zergliing
Originally by: Malcanis
How many SP does it take to train basics to 4, advanced to 3?

(Hint: less than 1.6M - enough less that you can skill up to fly a rifter well enough to start making ISK...)


It would probably take a week, but only an idiot would waste their time training skills at a slower speed, and even if you spent your first days towards ship stuff the learning skills would just be a speed bump to hit later, that you have to hit before your 'training bonus' ends.


Well I guess one benefit of being an idiot is that you get to have fun right away, instead of being furiously angry like you. The idiots spend, say, 50% of their training time on learning skills and 50% on other stuff. After a week, they're learning at a decent rate, and also making ISK, gaining experience, making friends, acquiring assets, improving their game knowledge and most importantly enjoying themselves - all of which are far more important than that last 5 or 10% training rate.

Meanwhile the non-idiots like you sit in a station, hugging the few percent more total SP you get from your "efficient" skillplan and seething in impotent fury as the "idiots" leave you ever further behind in game progress.

Look like the idiot filter is working well and you're on the wrong side of it, mi amigo. It's probably for the best - someone like you is going to have it even rougher when you actually undock.


Creiter
Posted - 2010.07.02 07:13:00 - [29]
 

I am currently on the fence of canceling this alt account or not. EVE has a huge time investment, which is fine. But to actually play the game on a new account while I buckle down and let the main finish at least another 4-5 months of basic stuff (about to finish the final capacitor skill then hull and back to shield followed by 1.5 months of gun stuff ugh), I need to invest alot of time retraining basic stuff like +cap/PG/CPU/navigation/tank all over again on the alt account (which I wanted to divert my attention). It is boring the first time, another 3 months of logging in to add +targeting after AB 5, then a few more days for social 5, and then a week vaction to finish cap recharge with an extended 1.5 weeks for +cap size. EVE has like 30 years of worth of skills, but even looking at the first six months of that for basic stuff that affect any ship is just burning me out (not that all skills to 5 was the goal Rolling Eyes). I hope CCP sees the light and actually sales SP straight up with the next Power of Two to be "New account, 3 months sub with 3 months worth SP to allocate) (no six month duration) instead of getting an extra 3 free months worth of SP training for the price of 3 months (current form of Power of 2). Basicly 6 months squeezed into 3, still paying the same amount without the extra long duration of being bored on the main and alt account, I might actually keep a second account going if I wasn't so burned out with the basics Confused.

Scyyy
Posted - 2010.07.02 07:30:00 - [30]
 

I really don't understand how people can be so angry about this. Yes they are important to train early on but since the initial bonus is so small there is no problem with putting some skills in between each level and you maybe lose half a day to a day and are able to fly a cruiser well within the first week and able to do level 2 missions while waiting for the last of the learning skills to train and actually gaining standing and isk, as opposed to sitting in the station watching your skills train for a month and end up being a day or two ahead in skills but a month behind in everything else.


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