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blankseplocked Learning skills: the end is near, at last!
 
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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:49:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Ghaylenty

this. i got a friend into this recently and all he can do is afk and wait for learning skills to finish til he can pvp.



You are a terrible friend for telling him to do this.


I would tend to agree, but only because the game requires a certain amount of inefficiency in order to actually enjoy the time when you're supposed to be the *MOST* pumped up about the game. Like we've been saying: a game mechanic that rewards people for not playing in that time period is ****ING STUPID. I personally don't even care if CCP gives learning skills back to the "oldies" like me - but I damn sure want to ensure that no noobs ever have to train them again.

-Liang

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:56:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 18:04:23
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Ranger 1

Now things become crystal clear, you don't understand the strategy behind learning skills so you claim there is none.

If you are trying out the game but aren't sure if it is for you, train the skills that help you immediately.
If you decide you are going to stick with the game, start picking off learning skills here and there to help you long term.
If you are familiar with the game and want a quick specialty alt, forget learning skills on that alt.
If you are familiar with the game and are building up what will be a long term character on another account or possibly a cap ship alt with other support skills, train learning skills first.



Deciding if I'm going to sit down and play a game of chess is not a strategy for playing a game of chess.



Actually, a great deal of the strategy that goes into high level chess matches is formulated before the game ever starts.

I would avoid using analogies that refer to games that require forethought and planning... apparently they are not your forte.


Edit:
Quote:
Like we've been saying: a game mechanic that rewards people for not playing in that time period is ****ING STUPID.


Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?

Training does not equal playing.

Playing does not equal training.

A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).

People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature.

Ghaylenty
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:56:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Ghaylenty

this. i got a friend into this recently and all he can do is afk and wait for learning skills to finish til he can pvp.



You are a terrible friend for telling him to do this.


I would tend to agree, but only because the game requires a certain amount of inefficiency in order to actually enjoy the time when you're supposed to be the *MOST* pumped up about the game. Like we've been saying: a game mechanic that rewards people for not playing in that time period is ****ING STUPID. I personally don't even care if CCP gives learning skills back to the "oldies" like me - but I damn sure want to ensure that no noobs ever have to train them again.

-Liang


I did not tell him to train learning skills. He is a hardcore player of past MMO's and as such can research much of the information on his own, and does not need someone to hold his hand.

It is that very same drive that also compels him to stay docked or mine in a noob ship until he reaches 4/4.. not even 5/5. I tried to get him to come out to low sec and gank some fools but I sympathize with the desire to 'ready oneself' due to the way the learning system is currently setup.

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:59:00 - [214]
 

So your friend is a min/maxer who is choosing not to have fun then. It's not the game's fault.

Ghaylenty
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:11:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Ghaylenty on 01/07/2010 18:12:06
Originally by: Felix Esperium
So your friend is a min/maxer who is choosing not to have fun then. It's not the game's fault.


Wrong. It is the game's fault for rewarding min/maxing more than actual playing during the time the new player is most excited and wanting to play the game.

Let me guess. You trained all your learning skills to 5, and your toon ISNT 4 1/2 years old yet. Outside of that, the only reason for you to be bitter is simple: You're a d-bag.

So which one is it?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:13:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?


When was the last time you started an alt, Ranger? Seriously - you will not play the game if you make the "optimal" decision that yields the greatest result in the long run. It's really hard to "play" the game with 20K SP.... so hard in fact that you cannot complete the new player tutorial.

Quote:
A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).


I tend to agree, but that player is penalized next to a player who plays it "smart" and burns their 1.6M SP on learning.

Quote:
People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature.


People, this is not a difficult concept. Skills which reward not playing the game and penalize playing the game - especially in the trial period - are poor game design. Learning skills are of this nature.

-Liang

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:13:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
So your friend is a min/maxer who is choosing not to have fun then. It's not the game's fault.


It's partially the game's job to steer players into having fun. Learning skills do the opposite.

Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:22:00 - [218]
 

Only if people with 20-30+ million skillpoints get some kind of bonus because not everybody trained all advanced skills to 5 Rolling Eyes

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:25:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Felix Esperium on 01/07/2010 18:29:26
Originally by: Ghaylenty

Wrong. It is the game's fault for rewarding min/maxing more than actual playing during the time the new player is most excited and wanting to play the game.

Let me guess. You trained all your learning skills to 5, and your toon ISNT 4 1/2 years old yet. Outside of that, the only reason for you to be bitter is simple: You're a d-bag.

So which one is it?



Actually both my accounts are at 5/4 so any sort of free +10 attribute handouts would be a direct buff to me. I have said that I don't necessarily disagree with removing the learning skills. I don't agree with free attributes for everyone. I also don't agree with the notion that everyone MUST train learning skills above all else in their first weeks. You are assuming that everyone measure the value and rewards of a game the same way.

Edit: also I forgot to add, ad hominem arguments are cool. Maybe I could say that the only way for you to support this idea is if you're a complete douche as well.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:34:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ranger 1
Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?


When was the last time you started an alt, Ranger? Seriously - you will not play the game if you make the "optimal" decision that yields the greatest result in the long run. It's really hard to "play" the game with 20K SP.... so hard in fact that you cannot complete the new player tutorial.

Quote:
A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).


I tend to agree, but that player is penalized next to a player who plays it "smart" and burns their 1.6M SP on learning.

Quote:
People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature.


People, this is not a difficult concept. Skills which reward not playing the game and penalize playing the game - especially in the trial period - are poor game design. Learning skills are of this nature.

-Liang


I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not.

This was a decision based on my plan for the character.

You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.

I prefer to build my characters and alts around my own decisions, and prefer not to have the advantages/disadvantages of each approach removed because someone else would rather not be bothered.

In the example given a couple of posts above, the experienced MMO player (new to EVE however) has made his decision. That decision being to give up some short term gains to have a long term advantage. This decision was his to make, and you wish to take that choice away from him.

This is somewhat akin to removing all mining skills from the game, and just having everyone train a generic skill called mining, because many people do not enjoy mining and think training all of those skills are simply a waste of time. Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.

That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:36:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).



Close. A new player (who has no sugar daddy) should use the accelerated training and remaps to optimize his ISK generation and otherwise get to a level where they can have a bit of fun. Then they stop their skill queue, create a 2nd toon on the same account and set that new toon on the month+ long journey that is 5/4 learning skills. (And, if a combat pilot, should probably throw in T2 Drone skills too in order to squeeze the most out of the mem/int attribute remap used to train the learning skills.)

The first toon runs around generating the isk for the advanced learning skillbooks. Once the second toon is done with the learning skills (35 days) and has enough skills to be fun, the first toon is abandoned.


Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:39:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium

Actually both my accounts are at 5/4 so any sort of free +10 attribute handouts would be a direct buff to me. I have said that I don't necessarily disagree with removing the learning skills. I don't agree with free attributes for everyone. I also don't agree with the notion that everyone MUST train learning skills above all else in their first weeks. You are assuming that everyone measure the value and rewards of a game the same way.


Your point seems to be that "Maybe some people are deciding to not train the learning skills because they want to train something that's actually fun for them." First, almost no one does that, because they know they'll be screwing themselves if they stay more than a month, and second, even if they are, SO WHAT?! If you remove learning, those people would be happier because they'll advance at the normal rate even though they didn't want to train learning. The people who would train learning would be happier because they don't need to train it and can train something else. Everyone wins. The only thing that you seem to be applauding the learning skills for is that they are a way to punish the first group of people for daring to train something they find fun in the first few weeks of the game instead of training the boring learning skills like you're supposed to. Seriously, what in the hell is good about that? "Oh, hello new player, you decided to train something fun instead of choosing the most boring skill in the game. You need to be punished." No, that's a stupid system, and I can't believe that some people think that way.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:41:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Ranger 1

A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).



Close. A new player (who has no sugar daddy) should use the accelerated training and remaps to optimize his ISK generation and otherwise get to a level where they can have a bit of fun. Then they stop their skill queue, create a 2nd toon on the same account and set that new toon on the month+ long journey that is 5/4 learning skills. (And, if a combat pilot, should probably throw in T2 Drone skills too in order to squeeze the most out of the mem/int attribute remap used to train the learning skills.)

The first toon runs around generating the isk for the advanced learning skillbooks. Once the second toon is done with the learning skills (35 days) and has enough skills to be fun, the first toon is abandoned.




But wait, I was told there is no strategy involved with learning skills. Very Happy

I don't believe you even have to train the basic learning skills to 5 anymore to be able to progress to the upper tier, but I am old and somewhat senile so I could be mistaken.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:42:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not. This was a decision based on my plan for the character. You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.


It's hardly a "choice" to do learning skills. The reality of the situation is that learning skills remove the ability of people to efficiently make use of their double time period. You even get to the crux of the issue here:

Quote:
Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.


I'll neglect the implication that you think mining isn't a thing to do in the game. But ultimately, right there, you just hit the nail on the head. They cut into the time that the new player should be devoting to being and feeling productive in the game - whatever path they choose.

Quote:
That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.


It is poor game design and needs to be removed. Period. End of subject - no matter how much you attempt to justify the "depth" it adds removes from the game.

-Liang

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:45:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black


Your point seems to be that "Maybe some people are deciding to not train the learning skills because they want to train something that's actually fun for them." First, almost no one does that, because they know they'll be screwing themselves if they stay more than a month, and second, even if they are, SO WHAT?! If you remove learning, those people would be happier because they'll advance at the normal rate even though they didn't want to train learning. The people who would train learning would be happier because they don't need to train it and can train something else. Everyone wins. The only thing that you seem to be applauding the learning skills for is that they are a way to punish the first group of people for daring to train something they find fun in the first few weeks of the game instead of training the boring learning skills like you're supposed to. Seriously, what in the hell is good about that? "Oh, hello new player, you decided to train something fun instead of choosing the most boring skill in the game. You need to be punished." No, that's a stupid system, and I can't believe that some people think that way.


Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:59:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Mathias Black on 01/07/2010 19:10:46
Originally by: Ranger 1

I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not.

This was a decision based on my plan for the character.

You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.

I prefer to build my characters and alts around my own decisions, and prefer not to have the advantages/disadvantages of each approach removed because someone else would rather not be bothered.


First, YOU CHOSE WRONG. No matter what sort of alt you made, if you were training anything at all for more than a day or so, you would have done it faster by training some learning skills first. If you were training for a few weeks or months, you would have done it faster with learning skills. There is no "advantage" to not taking the learning skills when they would have helped you hit your goal with the alt faster, it is always a disadvantage.

Quote:
In the example given a couple of posts above, the experienced MMO player (new to EVE however) has made his decision. That decision being to give up some short term gains to have a long term advantage. This decision was his to make, and you wish to take that choice away from him.

No one in their right mind chooses a tiny short term gain in exchange for a crippling long term advantage. EVERYONE trains the learning skills. Everyone in this thread, everyone you see flying around in space, everyone who has played this game for more than a few months. Everyone. If everyone makes the same exact choice, it's not really an interesting choice. Seriously if you're that enthralled with the strategy and depth of whether or not to take the learning skills, you're probably even more enthralled with the strategy and depth of figuring out how to put your pants on every morning.

Quote:

This is somewhat akin to removing all mining skills from the game, and just having everyone train a generic skill called mining, because many people do not enjoy mining and think training all of those skills are simply a waste of time. Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.


No, because choosing to specialize in mining or combat is an interesting choice. It allows two characters to differentiate themselves, and focus on different parts of the game that they enjoy. Learning skills are not like that - they are a requirement for every single type of character you can possibly come up with other than "dude who quits eve after a month", and are necessary to advance at the normal rate in any other skill in the entire game. This is not a valid or interesting choice. The choice is "normal character" or "terrible character", and no one willingly chooses a terrible character. The only people who make that "choice" are the people who don't understand that they're making that choice, ie, new players who haven't figured out how the learning skills work yet. Keeping something in the game just to try to trick new players into making the bad choice is a really dumb idea.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:59:00 - [227]
 

I spent the time to learn these skills (to 5/4 at least, learning 5) and removing them is still a great idea. The first time I ever seriously burned out of EVE was when I finally sat down to train learning skills (in the first weeks I trained the basics to 2 or 3 and left them there). I was six months into the game and they really put me off after a month of training "nothing".

This is in contrast to the awful "I did it, so everyone else should have to" argument, because I did it and wouldn't wish it on anybody else. I even did the smart thing and trained essential/fun skills before settling into the learning path. They were still boring when I got around to it.

Would love to see them go. They do no good for the game.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:02:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 19:05:02
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.

What a silly argument.

Don't forget that YOU will ALSO get free skills and skillpoints, so it doesn't make any difference - basically every player, new or old, will get 2 months of skilltraining for free. I don't see why people so foolishly object to that.

Personally I still think 5/5 learning and +5 implants is still an abnormal rate just in case you want to know. 2,770/hour is still quite sluggish; I'd say 4,000 would be a more decent rate with the increasing number of skills worth a handful extra months of training that every expansion offered us.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:04:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 19:05:18
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ranger 1
I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not. This was a decision based on my plan for the character. You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.


It's hardly a "choice" to do learning skills. The reality of the situation is that learning skills remove the ability of people to efficiently make use of their double time period.


Actually people train characters all the time that do not have any learning skills, usually for very specific purposes. For that matter many new players don't even give them a second glance until well past their first few weeks of play and instead work on thier combat or industry basics during thier double time period. Your assumption has no basis in fact.

Quote:
Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.


I'll neglect the implication that you think mining isn't a thing to do in the game. But ultimately, right there, you just hit the nail on the head. They cut into the time that the new player should be devoting to being and feeling productive in the game - whatever path they choose.


I implied no such thing. I stated that your stance on learning skills makes no more sense than the removal of (insert whatever bores you personally in EVE) skills. You do realize that many people consider preparing themselvs for rapid training later on is in fact time spent productively, and don't feel that they have to currently be training combat skills to start PVP, or mining skills to start mining. Apparently the nail you are trying to drive home is actually a screw.

Quote:
That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.


It is poor game design and needs to be removed. Period. End of subject - no matter how much you attempt to justify the "depth" it adds removes from the game.

-Liang


Because you do not see any value in it does not automatically make it so. In fact, the responses in this thread should show you that it is far from the "End of Subject", no matter how much you try to assert otherwise.

If a better system is created that REPLACES learning skills with another mechanic that requires choices to be made in creating your character... and does not automatically reduce everyones learning time (lets face it, that IS the underlying point here now isn't it... see the post above if you have any doubt) then thats fine. Worming your way into chopping the amount of time necessary to attain high skill levels in EVE, and minimizing the need to think about what you train, is NOT going to fly. Period. End of Story. Wink




Lefty Twotimes
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:07:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium

Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.


Your the one talking about the "normal rate" the rest of us have been talking about the max rate. I thought it was safe to assume that no one here is trying to get the max rate decreased so if they removed learning skills everyone would have to be set at the max rate or it would be decreased.

Cybernetics does not just affect you stats, it is not a learning skill, it gives 5x the possible stat increase for the same training time as just one advanced learning skills,the primary barrier to implant use is cost not trying time, and CCP has never said adding implants was a mistake. What i am trying to get across here is that almost every person bring up removing cybernetics are the people against removing training skills. Stop trying to pull other random crap (like cybernetics) into the discussion as example of why you can't remove almost completely unrelated skills (learning skills that only effect stats and nothing else).

Learning skills that effect stats and learning speed are not the same thing that Cybernetics that allows usage of in game items that effect stats, shields, damage, research, salvaging, propulsion, etc...

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:15:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
In fact, the responses in this thread should show you that it is far from the "End of Subject", no matter how much you try to assert otherwise.

If a better system is created that REPLACES learning skills with another mechanic that requires choices to be made in creating your character... and does not automatically reduce everyones learning time (lets face it, that IS the underlying point here now isn't it... see the post above if you have any doubt) then thats fine. Worming your way into chopping the amount of time necessary to attain high skill levels in EVE, and minimizing the need to think about what you train, is NOT going to fly. Period. End of Story.

There will always be conservatives that stand in the way of progression. Doesn't mean it should stop it.

"Thinking about what you train" is quite nonsensic. Everyone knows that you'll need all attributes for your skilltraining so you better train all related learning skills (perhaps charisma excepted). 90% of the skills are int/mem or per/wil. It's not that difficult. And getting to see that and investing 6 weeks of training into it - I don't see the added value, especially if some players will walk away from the game because they think 6 weeks of subscription for silly learning skills training is a bit over the top while the other skills already take 30 years.

It's not what you'd call a strategic challenge, it's just a test of patience or perhaps more accurate: tedium.

And if they're removed - who cares? As I said before: EVERYONE basically gets 2 months of free skilltime, why shouldn't you be happy?

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:17:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black


Your point seems to be that "Maybe some people are deciding to not train the learning skills because they want to train something that's actually fun for them." First, almost no one does that, because they know they'll be screwing themselves if they stay more than a month, and second, even if they are, SO WHAT?! If you remove learning, those people would be happier because they'll advance at the normal rate even though they didn't want to train learning. The people who would train learning would be happier because they don't need to train it and can train something else. Everyone wins. The only thing that you seem to be applauding the learning skills for is that they are a way to punish the first group of people for daring to train something they find fun in the first few weeks of the game instead of training the boring learning skills like you're supposed to. Seriously, what in the hell is good about that? "Oh, hello new player, you decided to train something fun instead of choosing the most boring skill in the game. You need to be punished." No, that's a stupid system, and I can't believe that some people think that way.


Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.


It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi. The point is that if you have a skill that you have to train in order to advance at a faster rate, everyone is going to train those skills to whatever the optimal level is. I don't think 5/5 is "normal" personally, I think 5/4 is much more common, but if they are going to get rid of the skills they'll have to set the attributes to the current max, otherwise they'd be taking away points from the bitter vets who would cry and scream about losing their extra attribute point even though they simultaneously make grandiose points about how attribute points aren't really that important and that the game is really about "player skill". I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.

Obyrith
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:21:00 - [233]
 

Having read most of this thread, my view of this has gone from "Learning skills were a bad idea and should probably be gotten rid of" to "OMG FFS CCP WHY DID YOU NOT FIX THIS LIKE YESTERDAY GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS NAO ARRRGGHH?!?!?!?!?!"

Thing is, people forget how utterly stupid the waiting period is. It can feel sort of tactical at the time, like you're making a wise investment. But really I'd just have more fun stuff to do now (and have been doing it for longer) if learning skills had simply never been implemented in the first place.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:25:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 01/07/2010 19:34:41
Edited by: stoicfaux on 01/07/2010 19:30:49

This is for the 'play the game now' and 'train the learning skills as you need them' crowd.

The main reason to rush the training of all the learning skills is to take the most advantage of the accelerated training bonus and the free remaps. So how about we do away with the accelerated training bonus and eliminate the need to use one of the remaps on the learning skills?

Alternative Solution to Removing the Learning Skills:
* Get rid of the accelerated training skill bonus. Give new chars the 800k bonus skill points straight up. This gives them accelerated training bonus up front. These bonus points cannot be used on learning skills.

* Learning skills no longer have primary/secondary attributes. They train at a constant rate. This rate should match what a new character with optimized attributes would train at.


Benefits:
* Folks can train the attributes they need now, instead of all attributes to 5/4 at once. If I'm training a PvP Rifter, I can focus on Int/Perc for fitting and flying and skip training Charisma until much later. I can also run Int/Perc up to less than 5/4 because Rifter skills don't have a huge time multiplier. I'll probably want to get up to 5/4 when the longer advanced skills are needed. This smooths out the learning skill curve and makes it less front loaded.
* Folks don't have to worry about wasting a remap on the learning skills.
* We keep the learning skills. (Yes, that's a disadvantage to some.)
* With 800k, it's easier to create an alt to try out other aspects of the game.
* You never have to train Charisma if you don't want to, but if you suddenly want to fly a Nighthawk, you still have the option to train Charisma without penalty.

Disadvantages:
* 800k of instant gratification. Could lead to quickie one-shot throw away alts. (Quick and cheap Hulkageddon pilots.)
* Probably a pain for CCP to implement.
* Even though greatly reduced, 'sitting on hands while training learning skills' still exists.
* Still doesn't fix the 4/3 'hump' of having basic and advanced skills. Meaning, if I get the basic learning to 4, I can almost immediately get 3 extra quick points from the advanced skill to 3. (i.e. It's not a smooth upward curve to get the 10 bonus attribute points.)


Side note: This idea is probably similar to the 'create a second training queue just for learning skills' that I've seen mentioned before.



Janjan Jansen
Amarr
Janjan Incorperated GmbH
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:25:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Obyrith
Having read most of this thread, my view of this has gone from "Learning skills were a bad idea and should probably be gotten rid of" to "OMG FFS CCP WHY DID YOU NOT FIX THIS LIKE YESTERDAY GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS NAO ARRRGGHH?!?!?!?!?!"

Thing is, people forget how utterly stupid the waiting period is. It can feel sort of tactical at the time, like you're making a wise investment. But really I'd just have more fun stuff to do now (and have been doing it for longer) if learning skills had simply never been implemented in the first place.


So you think it's a good plan to have 2 month time sink on all characters, it seems like a bad business model to me. But it's harder to solve this legacy thing then you might think eve is a complicated game.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:42:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 19:44:41
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Ranger 1
In fact, the responses in this thread should show you that it is far from the "End of Subject", no matter how much you try to assert otherwise.

If a better system is created that REPLACES learning skills with another mechanic that requires choices to be made in creating your character... and does not automatically reduce everyones learning time (lets face it, that IS the underlying point here now isn't it... see the post above if you have any doubt) then thats fine. Worming your way into chopping the amount of time necessary to attain high skill levels in EVE, and minimizing the need to think about what you train, is NOT going to fly. Period. End of Story.

There will always be conservatives that stand in the way of progression. Doesn't mean it should stop it.

"Thinking about what you train" is quite nonsensic. Everyone knows that you'll need all attributes for your skilltraining so you better train all related learning skills (perhaps charisma excepted). 90% of the skills are int/mem or per/wil. It's not that difficult. And getting to see that and investing 6 weeks of training into it - I don't see the added value, especially if some players will walk away from the game because they think 6 weeks of subscription for silly learning skills training is a bit over the top while the other skills already take 30 years.

It's not what you'd call a strategic challenge, it's just a test of patience or perhaps more accurate: tedium.

And if they're removed - who cares? As I said before: EVERYONE basically gets 2 months of free skilltime, why shouldn't you be happy?


Perhaps you should re-read the part of my post you quoted, especially the "a differnt mechanic would be acceptable if" section before you slap that conservative label on me (apparently you think that conservative is the opposite of progress, which is an interesting if remarkably childlike view of reality). Change for the sake of change often does not equate to progress.

You might also take a moment to read the sections of this thread that discuss all of the various methods/schemes/plans others have put thought into on how/when/if they are going to train learning skills. What you assume to be a simple decision is, in fact, far from it. There are many cases where you would not train learning skills on a particular character, or delay it until after your initial training spurt is over. You assume everybody trains their characters in the same way, for the same purposes as you do. This is incorrect. You assume far too much.


Leisen
Caldari
Interrobang Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:45:00 - [237]
 

While training learning skills is universally hated, it rewards patience. Also, if they removed learning skills, I would want my fkn 2-3 months of training back!

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:48:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black


It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....

...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.


So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:52:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black


It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....

...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.


So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.


That'd be pretty awesome because I'd have a ridiculous amount of SP and it'd be really hard for anyone to ever catch me! It'd like quintuple the amount of time it would take to get into a properly skilled BS! NOOB KILLIN TIME BABY! Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Rolling Eyes

The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4. Note that I have 5/5s so I'm actually suggesting nerfing my own training times.

-Liang

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:56:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 19:59:00
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black


It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....

...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.


So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.


Indeed.

If you were "forced" to train the skills, you were also "forced" to accept the +10 attribute points that came with them.

Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.

Everyone would then be training at the same rate, no temptation to "waste" that time and "not play". A level playing field.

... Or is the idea of everyone automatically getting a huge boost to their attributes really the whole point after all? If it is not, then you should have no objection.


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