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blankseplocked Learning skills: the end is near, at last!
 
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Orimei
Posted - 2010.07.09 11:27:00 - [541]
 

Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:45:30
Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:41:17
Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:33:35
Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:26:59
Well, lets face it: it is just inconvenient to have to train learning skills before you can start on the fun skills.*

As a new player you get told pretty quickly to download Evemon. You plug in the stuff you want and it tells you what learning skills to train. It also can tell you how you should remap.
Lets face it: the decision to train learning skills isn't a hard one. You are not somehow a strategic genius because you trained em like every single other player.
And you didn't work hard for it, neither did it take effort.**

Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty.
It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.

Learning skills aren't bad for the players who post here in this thread cause they already have them. If I start a new alt today it won't matter to me to train them because I already have a char which I can use to actually play the game.

This argument is about the players who start their first trial tomorrow, or in a week, or a month from now on.
It's about bettering the new player experience.

No learning skills = more people might try this game = more stick with it after trial = more money for CCP = company grows = more manpower to fix the lag etc.

How can you honestly say that this is a bad thing?



Another point: A good compromise might actually be to let new chars start with learning 4/3/4. Extend the skilltime bonus to 2 mil SP (or rather 1.6 mil + the sp it would've taken to train learning to that levels) and give every char created before the patch whatever SP it takes to train learning to 4/3/4 (about 400k I guess).***


--
*Ye, sure you don't have to train them right from the start and I think noone staring this games does train them without interspersing other skills. However: two remaps at the start + the 100% skill time bonus make it so that it is even better to train them right at the start than in the olden times.

**well I guess it can take some effort for noobs to get the isk for the advanced skills. Personally I did the smart thing when I started the account: bought a 60 day timecard, converted to plex, used one on my account and sold the other in order to get implants and starting funds, so I could train fast right from the beginning.

***This solution has the following upsides:
-sufficiently fast skilltimes for short term skillplans.
-Decision making if it is better to train them now to higher levels or rather later (so you guys can keep your strategic choices Wink).
-Noobs dont need to aquire the isk for advanced learning skills.
-Less work for the database guys at CCP.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.09 13:57:00 - [542]
 

Originally by: democrities

Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?


Quote or it didn't happen.

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:59:00 - [543]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Whine some more please...you amuse me Very Happy

I like to amuse people so let me try:

I want what I want and I want it now !!!. If I don't get it for free it's just not fair. Others had to wait and have patience? So what I want what I want and I want it now!!! (How's that?).

This game is hilarious I can see both sides of the same issue. People are so afraid someone else might get something easy that they had to wait for so they come here and hollar and gripe.

CCP will do whatever they want that will make them more money. As in any business, customers and employees are nothing more than a necessary evil to help them to that end...


Quetazal
Gallente
Clann Fian
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.07.09 17:01:00 - [544]
 

I have had 4 RL friends recently start EVE.

They spent thier 1.6mil SP boost doing learning skills.

They were very bored.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.07.09 17:39:00 - [545]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black
Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 06:05:36
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Felix Esperium
quick tell him he's not a ~special snowflake~

That will show him.Idea


Dear AtteraX,

You're not a special snowflake.

Sincerely,
The tens of thousands of other players who also trained learning skills.


At least I am not whing about the removal of learning skills...based on thin air.


I assure you my air is quite fat.


I was really hoping someone would respond "The only thing fat around here is your mom!" so I could respond "OH NO YOU DIDN'T!" This thread fails to deliver.

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2010.07.09 17:54:00 - [546]
 

Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 09/07/2010 17:57:12
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 09/07/2010 17:56:24
Originally by: Jasdemi
Please remove the goddamn learning skills!

4 years old debate, i'm with you guys.

It's a pain in the ass for new players.

Originally by: BrundleMeth
Originally by: AterraX
Whine some more please...you amuse me Very Happy

I like to amuse people so let me try:

I want what I want and I want it now !!!. If I don't get it for free it's just not fair. Others had to wait and have patience? So what I want what I want and I want it now!!! (How's that?).

This game is hilarious I can see both sides of the same issue. People are so afraid someone else might get something easy that they had to wait for so they come here and hollar and gripe.

CCP will do whatever they want that will make them more money. As in any business, customers and employees are nothing more than a necessary evil to help them to that end...



So 2003.

Wake up. Battleships, T2 and stuff, you know.

IIIAsharakIII
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:55:00 - [547]
 

Ok first off,

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

Learning skill training is a great time to figure out WHAT you want to do with your time in the game, and honestly if you're not playing the game while the learning skills are training, what makes you think you'll play it while you're training your other skills? Oh and its more than possible to make 22 million in a month, especially if you're out there ratting, mining, missioning, hauling, trading, etc. Although I would be favorable to a price drop in the second tier, maybe half the price or something.

New characters get plenty of initial SP to do some light work in any of the above mentioned fields of recreation in this game. And frankly I feel the time bonus CCP already gave you is too much, and ought to be revoked. I'm not saying this because I need people to go through the same grueling process as myself, but because I feel that free handouts in eve (especially to new players) is an unhealthy habit to get into, and sets them up for failure.

democrities
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:16:00 - [548]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities

Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?


Quote or it didn't happen.



Quote or it didnt happen? Its in this very same thread on page 18! I am not going to requote something for someone so lazy they can't even look back a page to find it.

Oh look, also another devblog today...changes to the game.. Oh wait, no surprise, it has NOTHING to do with learning skills.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:29:00 - [549]
 

Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities

Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?


Quote or it didn't happen.



Quote or it didnt happen? Its in this very same thread on page 18! I am not going to requote something for someone so lazy they can't even look back a page to find it.

Oh look, also another devblog today...changes to the game.. Oh wait, no surprise, it has NOTHING to do with learning skills.

Come on, requote it for me. It's such a hot summer day.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:56:00 - [550]
 

New day, new hope, new bump, moar troll, moar selfish vets!

o/

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.10 09:19:00 - [551]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 10/07/2010 09:22:57
Originally by: Jasdemi
New day, new hope, new bump, moar troll, moar selfish vets!

o/

Will you be so kind and post a link to the Dev blog we were promised by the OP? Surely it must be out by now.

Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.07.10 11:54:00 - [552]
 

They could allow PLEX to be redeemed for SPs somehow while maintaining that SPs can't be bought with real money. After all, PLEX is just another in-game item, nothing special...

Or they could create a new just-another-item-item, call it the Cerebral Booster, something that can be traded, sold, looted, or applied for an in-game for SPs or increased skill training speed. Of course it would definitely not be something so crass as selling SPs for money.

Firebyrd
Gallente
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:03:00 - [553]
 

I'm one who has them 5/5 and have been since the advanced was released, i don't care about the SPs, as much as i would be about the Attribute points, I paid the money, and the time, so no half hearted fix with a mix of Imps, and Attributes to recover the 10 points will make me or anyone else happy....


CCP should just leave em alone, Players have a choice, train or not to train... and that's where it should stay... If new players don't like it, then don't play

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:12:00 - [554]
 

Originally by: Firebyrd
If new players don't like it, then don't play

That's the problem. Why shouldn't new players pay CCP money just due to learnings?

Orimei
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:23:00 - [555]
 

Originally by: Firebyrd
... If new players don't like it, then don't play


And that's the whole problem. Without constant influx of new players the game dies.

ZenSun
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:41:00 - [556]
 

I agree with getting rid of them, actually. Then give us pre-existing customers unallocated skillpoints to plot on our sheets, just like you did for the extended DT ;) (fighters V please deliver.)

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:45:00 - [557]
 

Originally by: Orimei
Originally by: Firebyrd
... If new players don't like it, then don't play


And that's the whole problem. Without constant influx of new players the game dies.


Perhaps CCP should concentrate on fixing numerous gaming issues to retain the old players...

Remina Hesto
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:50:00 - [558]
 

Originally by: Guttripper

Perhaps CCP should concentrate on fixing numerous gaming issues to retain the old players...


No, that's actually the problem. CCP has shown that they never will fix the numerous gaming issues they created in the past. Be glad that they're actually working on lag (if we are to believe their devlogs, of course). How long have assault ships and rockets been broken? Vets will keep playing and paying whatever they do, which is good, as they are the ones running the show in this game. Seeing how the average player usually has 2-3 alt accounts, a new player is worth a lot more then an old vet for the corporation.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.10 15:12:00 - [559]
 

Taking this from another thread, but this is just a brilliant quote

"I recommend getting one of the Frigate skills to V and the corresponding two small turret specialisations to IV"

This is a great thing to do as a beginner you won't be bored to your mind, and who the hell, sorry but this still ****es me off, why the hell do you RECOMMEND TAKING THE LEARNING SKILLS FIRST?! That's utter and complete bigotry and bull**** advice. Seriulsy do you want the newbie to be bored out of his mind from the day he starts or do you want him to get a feel for the game first?

Learning skills should come secondary AFTER GETTING THE FEEL FOR THE GAME, here's my conclusion, the fact that learning skills are so disliked is that beginners no matter where they go get told, train learning skilsl first, train learning skilsl first. That's just a recipe for disaster and making someone not stick to the game.

Instead it should sound like the quote i posted above, perhaps a player want to mine, then that is also a possible direection. My point is, new players should get a feel for the game first and get to be a part of the bigger picture , either in mission corps you can act as a salvager at first, in a pvp corp get frig 5 and t2 weapon systems to 4. Miner get into a retriever, trade i have no idea about but same deal goes here.

Meat of the matter is tho, learning skills are a tedium yes i agree, but i still support them as they give somewhat of a depht to the game. But they shouldn't be to emphasised to a new player just trying to learn the game, there's more important stuff.

Secondly, there appears to be a unwritten rule that all new players has to train learning skills first, why it exists i do not know, i've stated one of the possible explanations. I'm a fairly new player myself, and my time in the rookie chat i got recomended to train the learning skills, only thing was i had no clue how to find them(i was still a rookie). Also for a long time i had no idea they existed. During this time i trained a assortment of skills, like BC3 and some mining. This was great because it let med have a feel of how the game plays, i even got the chance to do some minor pvp, been through 5-6 pvp battles, i've done missions i've mined.

My point is still, with myself as an example a new player should experiment to get a feel for the game. Then they should train the learning skills relevant to what they want to do. My bet is also that a new player won't be able to afford to train the advanced learning skills right of the bat without taking out a loan or borrow isk from a friend. What kind of example does that set as a player, to begin playing a game you have to rely on others charity. Or you haev the option as a beginner to train learning skills 4/3

tl;dr
For those giving the advice to rookies to train the learning skilsl first, you miss a few important factors.
1. The learning skills they train might prove useless to them as they might not be relevant to what they do when they finally find out.
2. They most likely will not have the isk income to buy the advanved learning skills, 20 millions as a new player is alot of isk. So they might have to buy isk through selling plex or stuff or borrow from someone.
3. If they train their learning skilsl to 5/4 the first thing they do and get bored while they have borrowed money, it is likely that the one that borrowed them the money will go on a loss.

In my opinion, a player should firsthand prioritize being self sufficent in his/her income before getting into learning skills. By self sufficent i do not mean being able to buy plex, more being able to make a steady income of isk.

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.10 15:21:00 - [560]
 

Originally by: ZenSun
I agree with getting rid of them, actually. Then give us pre-existing customers unallocated skillpoints to plot on our sheets, just like you did for the extended DT ;) (fighters V please deliver.)


See this is the true cause...wanting the attribute points...but not wanting to do anything to get them.

/thread

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.10 15:47:00 - [561]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Orimei
Originally by: Firebyrd
... If new players don't like it, then don't play


And that's the whole problem. Without constant influx of new players the game dies.


Perhaps CCP should concentrate on fixing numerous gaming issues to retain the old players...


You'll never get 100% retention rate.

CCPs dark secret is that while the number of accounts keeps going up, the number of people is staying relatively stable.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 18:41:00 - [562]
 

So even if many old players stay, why shouldn't more newbies join? What's your purpose, learning lovers? This change will be better for EVERYONE.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.10 18:46:00 - [563]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
So even if many old players stay, why shouldn't more newbies join? What's your purpose, learning lovers? This change will be better for EVERYONE.


Not if it turns into some godforsaken welfare plan which many people against learning skills have suggested, +10 skill to all yeah right... improved training times by 10%... yeah right.

There need to be a compromise, and if that compromise is giving all new chars 4/3 it's not a welfare plan.

But then again, the ones opposing learning skills don't seem to be able to get to a compromise...

Znopi Kichi
Posted - 2010.07.10 18:50:00 - [564]
 

I don't understand why people like you have to write things like this. Just be quiet. Or go play wow where the creaters have no integrity and they listen to idiots like you.

CCP made this game and they made it good ..So leave it to them, to think about changes or not changes in this case!
I stand with ccp on everything, even when they make sweeping judgments about the market prices of minerals and dont bother to notice everything else thats dropped in value due to massive influx of new players in the last few years. lol

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 18:54:00 - [565]
 

Originally by: Znopi Kichi
I don't understand why people like you have to write things like this. Just be quiet. Or go play wow where the creaters have no integrity and they listen to idiots like you.

CCP made this game and they made it good ..So leave it to them, to think about changes or not changes in this case!
I stand with ccp on everything, even when they make sweeping judgments about the market prices of minerals and dont bother to notice everything else thats dropped in value due to massive influx of new players in the last few years. lol

CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. How do you think all this speculation started?

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.10 18:57:00 - [566]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Znopi Kichi
I don't understand why people like you have to write things like this. Just be quiet. Or go play wow where the creaters have no integrity and they listen to idiots like you.

CCP made this game and they made it good ..So leave it to them, to think about changes or not changes in this case!
I stand with ccp on everything, even when they make sweeping judgments about the market prices of minerals and dont bother to notice everything else thats dropped in value due to massive influx of new players in the last few years. lol

CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. How do you think all this speculation started?


It all started with the blasted skill point reiumbursement system, hadn't they announced that, this speculation would never have came up.

Sadian
Posted - 2010.07.10 19:05:00 - [567]
 

Edited by: Sadian on 10/07/2010 19:05:26
Quote:
Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty.
It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.

That has to be one of the most inane comments of all time.
Don't you realize that applies to every skill? Why not just apply that line of reasoning to every skill in this game. Oh wait a second then Eve would be a first person shooter (See Dust 514 or 574 or whatever)
Why do you people (learning skill whiners) come to this game, enjoy it, fail at it and then try and change the rules? If you suck at chess do you try and change the rules of the game?
ALL worthwhile rewards require a bit of sacrifice and if you want to speed up your skill training a bit learn the skills necessary. Earn it! Quit demanding something for nothing!
Love
Sadian

Vee Raa
Minmatar
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2010.07.10 19:06:00 - [568]
 

I still don't understand why now you must train the learning skills ?
Your char would be gimped they say .. compared to what ? others who have more sp's ?
You know .. there will always be a bigger fish in the pond.
If you don't like them, don't train them.

Wait did i hear some 'WhhaaaWhhaaaa' ? it would take more time you say ?
Yeah, absolutely not fair, that guy over there has Afterburners V and reaches the gate waay earlier than you let's dump those skills too.



Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 19:11:00 - [569]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 10/07/2010 19:11:10
Originally by: Sadian
Edited by: Sadian on 10/07/2010 19:05:26
Quote:
Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty.
It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.

That has to be one of the most inane comments of all time.
Don't you realize that applies to every skill? Why not just apply that line of reasoning to every skill in this game. Oh wait a second then Eve would be a first person shooter (See Dust 514 or 574 or whatever)
Why do you people (learning skill whiners) come to this game, enjoy it, fail at it and then try and change the rules? If you suck at chess do you try and change the rules of the game?
ALL worthwhile rewards require a bit of sacrifice and if you want to speed up your skill training a bit learn the skills necessary. Earn it! Quit demanding something for nothing!
Love
Sadian

Someone didn't have 'nuff balls to post with his main. :)

Also another thing:

Why this and 2 other threads across the forum weren't closed yet? Posting rumor will result in a lock, so why are all 3 threads still alive and kickin'?

Threads about SP purchase and SP remaps were closed in 1 day or so, but this one is open for almost 2 weeks now, and still not closed. May a QQ'ing vet explain me this?

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.07.10 19:15:00 - [570]
 

/reported for rumor-mongering per CCP Fallout.



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