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Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.07.02 12:14:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black

So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?


No the reason I am against it is because I haven't seen a good system to remove them. Magically maxing out everyone's training speed isn't it. I would like +5's in all my velators' holds along with that unit of trit from now on please.

Again. just because you don't see how it could potentially be abused doesn't mean it couldn't be.

My life will not be ruined no matter what happens with learning skills. My day wouldn't even be ruined if they were deleted and I didn't get a thing back for them. Apparently training skills slightly slower than "normal" is a game ruining experience for "everyone" though so maybe I'm not the one who has his priorities messed up here.


CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake.
CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.

There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol

The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:15:00 - [332]
 

To hell with learning skills!

Khun SP
Paramite Factories
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:33:00 - [333]
 

Edited by: Khun SP on 02/07/2010 14:33:43
Originally by: WittyName Here
Edited by: WittyName Here on 01/07/2010 15:50:41
Originally by: Khun SP
Edited by: Khun SP on 01/07/2010 12:13:23
This is the sux...

You want EVE to become the new WOW???

On this game you need a BRAIN, to decide whether train learning skills or not, and many other decissions. Depending on how wise you were, you become succesful or not.

Kill learning skills and you will kill a key decission question for EVE players.



P.S. are they removing attribute implants aswell? that would be the awesome lulzors.. at least this change would imply a bigger will to do PvP...




Are you thick? Based on your post, you imply that after learning skills, there are no important decisions to make regarding training skills.

As someone mentioned a few posts above you:

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 10:57:41
As with the current training speed - even with +5 implants and learning skills to V - it still takes 30 years for all skills. I think we should get rid of learning skills. Better still: increase learning speed to 4,000 SP/hr max.
Games shouldn't require a 10 year investment to be able to get to "the top stuff". It's just a hobby, not work!



Are you telling me that between those years of training until you max all your skills (if you ever do, mind), you don't have to make any more important decisions regarding training skills?

Are you that ****ing stupid?




LOLMAO?

I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.

You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts Laughing

So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!

EVE is turning WOW 2.0

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:40:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Khun SP

LOLMAO?

I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.

You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts Laughing

So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!

EVE is turning WOW 2.0

Translation: My brain power is a way too low to realize that learnings hurt the game and keep new players away, because not everyone feels like paying few months for a game before actually starting to play it. However, like mentioned above, I don't get it and thus wanna-be-troll this forum. Due to my low brainpower I was often scammed in Jita, people promised to send double ISK, but never did. That's why I hate making EVE a little bit more enjoyable for newbies.

Thanks for your attention!

Khun SP

Optical Illusion
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:51:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Khun SP

LOLMAO?

I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.

You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts Laughing

So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!

EVE is turning WOW 2.0

Translation: My brain power is a way too low to realize that learnings hurt the game and keep new players away, because not everyone feels like paying few months for a game before actually starting to play it. However, like mentioned above, I don't get it and thus wanna-be-troll this forum. Due to my low brainpower I was often scammed in Jita, people promised to send double ISK, but never did. That's why I hate making EVE a little bit more enjoyable for newbies.

Thanks for your attention!

Khun SP


shall we remove security status, because i can only do a limited amount of highsec ganks before having to rat it back up and that might prevent new players.
shall we remove Standings, i mean, new players would be far more interested if they could do level 4's from day one.
shall we remove the ABC ores, and 0.0 rats and put them in highsec so we can all sit happly in empire making a ton of isk whist holding hands and singing kumbyah.
shall we just quit now and stop kidding ourselves this game is different from WoW and start calling eve World of Spacecraft?

You sir, are a moron.

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:51:00 - [336]
 

I, too, would like to add my voice to the opinion that Learning skills are an unnecessary and impeding gameplay element, and their eradication (with appropriate compensation) would be of great benefit to EvE Online.

I am however interested in how training will be handled post-Learning. Will non-Learning training rates be tweaked? Will skills train at their "basic, un-Learned levels"? Will they train as if everyone had 5/5s? I am of the opinion that, in a post-Learning EvE, everyone should have their training rates tweaked to represent full 5/5 levels. Thusly, those who invested time into max learning skills are recompensated fully for their SP while those who didn't get less SP reimbursement, but are happy they train faster.

Any less and CCP runs the risk of being accused of removing one time-sink gameplay element and replacing it with a more long-term time-sink design.

SirRalph
Minmatar
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:55:00 - [337]
 

Learning skills are pretty worthless. As five years in EVE, I have raised tons of characters and sold them.

Only thing that annoys me alot is the learning skills, advanced skills at lvl5 are pretty rare, because your character has to be over 5 years old to get benefit from them... Laughing

CCP, just remove them, like OP said add 10 points for each attribute at character creation, let us to remap them twice, keep the starting bonus.

One of the reasons why some of my RL friends didnt want to continue EVE was that most of the 14 trial they were actually training..learning skills... So the 14 days went...watching how you train learning skills so you could someday train something usefull..lol Rolling Eyes

This has been long standing issue and it needs to addressed.

I believe that CCP would get more subscriptions by doing this, and I am pretty damn sure about it.

Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.02 15:04:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 02/07/2010 15:09:30
Oh hi. 5 day reactivation to say this:

Remove and rebate all level 3 learning skills. Add 5 onto all stats. Remove Learning, tack its 2%/level bonus onto the Level 1 charisma one.

I'd still prefer no learning skills whatsoever (I even made a thread on the subject when I was a wee 1.5mil pilot) but this would act as a halfway house.

The position of "Either spend longer for xxx 5 or train boring learning skills" is a Catch-22 - neither is fun.

Xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.02 15:28:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
No game, person or whatever is 100% perfect. EVE is quite a nice game but this part of it isn't.
[...]
EVE will still be the same game for 99.9%
You are a very fine specimen which displays how modern society fails so hard at; a might-be-highly-educated individual without principles and philosophies and only to be deceived by how things look.

Tell you what. LS isn't and shouldn't be considered to be the area where improvement need to be made. It's true. LS does not yield anything tangible instantly. However, LS in fact very well reflect the idea EVE is built upon; you are free to decide what and who you are going to be, and ultimately bear with the outcome at the end: The race, skill sets, how you look, and, even your speed of learning at where you'd like to excel. In doing so, none forces you. not even CCP. not even me.

With LS gone, it might be true that EVE might *LOOK* pretty much the same, but that's the start of the end of EVE known up until this point. Say L.S. is gone. Then what's next? Like you said in somewhere, SP should be sold for RL dollar? Then, how about a full-officer-mod-fitted nice titan for just few bucks to you? With oh-so-many super cap pilots with all maxed out skills around then, can you still tell me EVE is a very nice game to play with straight face? (I somehow know you wouldWink) What your asking is what Korean MMO companies do all the time, and they dump their products when "cool-factor" wears out. That's why their product does not have any history or deep thoughts what-so-ever and as shallow as puddle after rain.

All of your posts only reflect your perception of what EVE should be, not what EVE really need to be. I'll just say what you really want to say with all your noise. You feel L.S. makes EVE imperfect b/c it's there and you want it and want it all, but you don't want to train it like I do.

You want it? go train it. It's there for you to take it.

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.

Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:08:00 - [340]
 

I see the fallacies are as strong as ever in the crowd trying to defend LS. Everything from the informal fallacies' slippery slope to broader non sequitors.

No one enjoys training LS, not even the crowd defending them so we can at least agree on that. However, the arguement is that they are a representation of the core values of EVE in preperation and patience. I won't argue the benefits of removing them because they are clear, easier entry for new players, large SP pools being returned to current players causing a surge of activity as people have upwards of 2m sp to allocate.

However, I still don't see how their removal is damaging. For the current population, their removal wouldn't negatively effect us since we are already seperated by certain levels of SP and everyone training at the relatively same rate wouldn't break this (implants would affect it and yes they remain, the two aren't comparable). Incoming players would still have to plan their training queues according to what they want to do, they just wouldn't have to adjust their training TO adjust their training so they don't have to wait unnecessarily longer.

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:26:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 16:27:16
Originally by: Saehta
I see the fallacies are as strong as ever in the crowd trying to defend LS. Everything from the informal fallacies' slippery slope to broader non sequitors.

No one enjoys training LS, not even the crowd defending them so we can at least agree on that. However, the arguement is that they are a representation of the core values of EVE in preperation and patience. I won't argue the benefits of removing them because they are clear, easier entry for new players, large SP pools being returned to current players causing a surge of activity as people have upwards of 2m sp to allocate.

However, I still don't see how their removal is damaging. For the current population, their removal wouldn't negatively effect us since we are already seperated by certain levels of SP and everyone training at the relatively same rate wouldn't break this (implants would affect it and yes they remain, the two aren't comparable). Incoming players would still have to plan their training queues according to what they want to do, they just wouldn't have to adjust their training TO adjust their training so they don't have to wait unnecessarily longer.


You're right, I don't enjoy training Learning Skills, any more than I did training race Frigate to IV when I never plan to use Frigates exclusively, or Cruiser to IV so that I get to BSs. I don't enjoy having to train Gunnery up to V so I can use Large turrets, or Drones up to V before I can start getting into the advanced drone skills. But I do it, not because I enjoy it, but because it'll mean more in the long run. You say "YEAH, BUT IT MAKES SENSE RP-WISE -- YOU CAN'T USE BIG GUNS UNTIL YOU HAVE TRAINED IN HOW TO USE GUNS WELL!" News for you: There was a class back when I was in high school called Study Skills, and as stupid as it sounds (especially considering your arguments), you basically learn how to learn. And you know what? As a college student, I found that class damned helpful, because it helped me to be able to do **** like take better/more effective notes and write up better-sounding reports. Learning skills do the same thing -- it may sound 'stupid', but it is possible to train up your coordination (Perception skills), or read self-improvement books (Charisma), or work on your Memory (Take a wild guess what I'm referring to), or read books to learn new things (Intelligence), or take speech classes/do some formal debating (Willpower). EVE simulates an entire world -- and in some ways, life -- otherwise; learning skills take nothing away from the canon whatsoever.

I see the same problem in those who think LSs should be removed that you claim is in those who defend it; you always use the same song and dance of "BARRIER TO NEW PLAYERS! NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT! EVERYONE DOES, THOUGH, SO YEAH!" And if that's the case, then we should get rid of all skills that are 'optional' but seem to be commonly taken to V -- the eponymous skill in each category, for example (Gunnery, Electronics, Engineering, Drones, etc.), or stuff like having to wait for Frigates to reach IV before you can fly the next class of ship. If you try to counter that with "Well, yeah, you have to wait for the training in order to qualify for the ability to fly bigger ships", then you have no ground to stand on -- so, too, with Learning Skills do you have to wait now for a benefit later.

I'm sick of all the rhetoric about how "NO ONE WANTS TO WAIT FOR LEARNING SKILLS!" Well, buddy, I've got a laundry list of prereqs that I have no desire whatsoever to use/learn, and accordingly, don't want to wait for; if we're gonna be pulling out learning skills because it takes too long, let's just go ahead and get rid of those, right?

Also, everyone is copying that one claim "CCP DOESN'T WANT LSs EITHER!" Not that I (necessarily) doubt the common consensus/bandwagon, but does anyone have a link? I'd like to see it for myself instead of get it at 4th hand from people who repeat what they heard from others.

Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:28:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.


So many people easily forget that games are supposed to be fun. Yes, success is more rewarding when you overcome challenges. And I would agree that intolerance of delayed gratification is sophomoric, but having FUN is the point, and the only point, because this is a recreational activity.

GAMES --> Any Existing Tedium = real, not fun. Thrilling Risk = fabricated in your mind but equates to fun for many/most. Fun = based upon personal experiences and preferences. The Learning Tree of skill provides only tedium and no fun no matter how you define fun personally (unless you actually enjoy tedium).

Take a fundamental task like firing a standard missile : Missile Launcher Operation 2 + Standard Missiles 1 are required to fire your first missile. Not too bad with or without Learning skill, eh? Now take Large T2 guns (or many other examples) - they take a long time, but without Learning skills it goes well past the point of absurdity. Trees like guns are why all the vets I know state that Learning skills are mandatory, simultaneously Learning skills make advancements seem daunting and are discouraging to a noob. I thought it was stupid when I started the game, and I still think it's stupid as I'm finishing up skills for a carrier.

Bottom line for me - DITCH LEARNING SKILLS :: DITCH THE TEDIUM - and I don't even care if I am compensated for the time spent on building a robust Learning Tree. And getting upset by a change like this is just as sophomoric as intolerance for delayed gratification. Remember people : it's a game; it's supposed to be recreational/fun.

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:28:00 - [343]
 

Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle


CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake.
CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.

There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol

The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.


I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).

Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:29:00 - [344]
 

Slippery slope arguments are terrible. Might as well shut down EVE now (and most video games) because before you know it we'll all be violent, anti-social criminals in real life. Argue the idea on its (lack of) merits -- how it could improve/ruin EVE gameplay now -- not what they could be the herald of one day.

Learning skills are an annoyance, and even with them (and +5 implants, and regular neural remaps) there are about 20+ years of skill training left in the game. That is more than enough, and probably excessive imo.

Just about everyone in EVE hates learning skills, or hated them when they had to train them. The only people I see arguing for them are misguided elitists who claim learning skills have some (dubious) social engineering value. (I wouldn't be the tough internet spaceships guy I am today if I hadn't suffered through the learning skill boot camp. Hel, noobs have it easy now. In MY day we trained we trained learning skills while mining in a bantam, in three feet of snow, while being caned with a splintery reed. And we LIKED it!)

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:36:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.


So many people easily forget that games are supposed to be fun. Yes, success is more rewarding when you overcome challenges. And I would agree that intolerance of delayed gratification is sophomoric, but having FUN is the point, and the only point, because this is a recreational activity.

GAMES --> Any Existing Tedium = real, not fun. Thrilling Risk = fabricated in your mind but equates to fun for many/most. Fun = based upon personal experiences and preferences. The Learning Tree of skill provides only tedium and no fun no matter how you define fun personally (unless you actually enjoy tedium).

Take a fundamental task like firing a standard missile : Missile Launcher Operation 2 + Standard Missiles 1 are required to fire your first missile. Not too bad with or without Learning skill, eh? Now take Large T2 guns (or many other examples) - they take a long time, but without Learning skills it goes well past the point of absurdity. Trees like guns are why all the vets I know state that Learning skills are mandatory, simultaneously Learning skills make advancements seem daunting and are discouraging to a noob. I thought it was stupid when I started the game, and I still think it's stupid as I'm finishing up skills for a carrier.

Bottom line for me - DITCH LEARNING SKILLS :: DITCH THE TEDIUM - and I don't even care if I am compensated for the time spent on building a robust Learning Tree. And getting upset by a change like this is just as sophomoric as intolerance for delayed gratification. Remember people : it's a game; it's supposed to be recreational/fun.


If this is your argument -- that EVE is a game and, accordingly, should only have fun stuff in it -- then you are arguing for mining and playing the market to be removed. Both are equally droll activities, reflections more of real life than a GAME -- wow, look how fun it is to push these piles of virtual money around! Marvel at how much joy I get from warping into an asteroid field and click-dragging my way to a mineral bonanza!

Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.

Iwillcutyou
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:46:00 - [346]
 

Quote:
Just about everyone in EVE hates learning skills, or hated them when they had to train them. The only people I see arguing for them are misguided elitists who claim learning skills have some (dubious) social engineering value. (I wouldn't be the tough internet spaceships guy I am today if I hadn't suffered through the learning skill boot camp. Hel, noobs have it easy now. In MY day we trained we trained learning skills while mining in a bantam, in three feet of snow, while being caned with a splintery reed. And we LIKED it!)


+1, Even though it reminds me of things I tell my son lol. (Self reflection time? Maybe)

Note: I grew up in the north, he is growing up in the south. No snow here! (I like snow)

Ghaylenty
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:52:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
No game, person or whatever is 100% perfect. EVE is quite a nice game but this part of it isn't.
[...]
EVE will still be the same game for 99.9%
You are a very fine specimen which displays how modern society fails so hard at; a might-be-highly-educated individual without principles and philosophies and only to be deceived by how things look.

Tell you what. LS isn't and shouldn't be considered to be the area where improvement need to be made. It's true. LS does not yield anything tangible instantly. However, LS in fact very well reflect the idea EVE is built upon; you are free to decide what and who you are going to be, and ultimately bear with the outcome at the end: The race, skill sets, how you look, and, even your speed of learning at where you'd like to excel. In doing so, none forces you. not even CCP. not even me.

With LS gone, it might be true that EVE might *LOOK* pretty much the same, but that's the start of the end of EVE known up until this point. Say L.S. is gone. Then what's next? Like you said in somewhere, SP should be sold for RL dollar? Then, how about a full-officer-mod-fitted nice titan for just few bucks to you? With oh-so-many super cap pilots with all maxed out skills around then, can you still tell me EVE is a very nice game to play with straight face? (I somehow know you wouldWink) What your asking is what Korean MMO companies do all the time, and they dump their products when "cool-factor" wears out. That's why their product does not have any history or deep thoughts what-so-ever and as shallow as puddle after rain.

All of your posts only reflect your perception of what EVE should be, not what EVE really need to be. I'll just say what you really want to say with all your noise. You feel L.S. makes EVE imperfect b/c it's there and you want it and want it all, but you don't want to train it like I do.

You want it? go train it. It's there for you to take it.

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.


the reason why lineage II and games like it are so popular is because people like this who lack the tedium of real world job experience attempt to simulate an environment in which they can excel, and as such, they believe the tedium is infact a 'feature' and not a distraction, simply because they can finally succeed, when it is infact the opposite.

like someone else said, the only people left arguing against this are misguided elitists who truly believe that tedium serves a greater purpose in recreation. tedium is used as filler for when there is nothing to keep you focused on the next shiny. learning skills are an artifact from the days of 2003-2004 when they were concerned about players obtaining all skills at level 5. Today, this is not possible, and the amount of "next shinies" eve has is truly mind-boggling.

But thats not to say giving attributes for free is a good solution. Hell, thats a terrible solution. You'd be giving essentially all L5 learning skills to a newb, who will -still- be just as lost in what to train as before when he had to worry about training learning skills anyway.

No, what we need is a -new- system. A cleverly designed system that rewards old vets for the time we put in (SP reimbursement sounds just fine) but (and this is a big one) there MUST NOT be any way for the new system to impinge upon older players.

The stepping stool system of learning skills IS very important. But the way its done now, is dumb. Players should be playing the game in their first month. Grinding ISK and standing for missions far outweighs running around in a noob frig without fits for a month while you mine veldspar and wait for your learning skills to finish. No, thats a horrible implementation and anyone who cannot see that new players are STRUGGLING to keep playing is just misguided.

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:00:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: SammyullJackson

Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.


Wrong.

Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.

WittyName Here
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:04:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Khun SP
Edited by: Khun SP on 02/07/2010 14:33:43
LOLMAO?

I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.

You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts Laughing

So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!

EVE is turning WOW 2.0

Again, you imply that by removing learning skills means that we also want to remove all important decisions for newer players. We don't.

We DO want those important decisions intact. However, Learning skills are NOT a crucial decision in the sense that anyone who is going to play this game for more than a few months (ie. become an active EVE subscriber for an extended period of time) is going to train them.

So even if someone sets out to not train the learning skills during the accelerated training time, if they do decide to continue playing the game, they WILL train the learning skills.

And from the moment you are training learning skills - you are not training other skills that new players will want. Such as salvaging, medium weapons, destroyer, support skills, fitting skills. Instead, they will wait a month before they will do that. And during this time, because they do not have enough fitting skills, support skills or various other skills, they are unable to participate in more activities that are available to players that have already trained them.

So, instead of forcing players to go through that INEVITABLE stage of training learning skills, remove it so that people can continue to the next stage of making important decisions regarding what OTHER skills they want to specialize in.

Again, your statement:

Quote:
lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!


was written under false assumptions. We do NOT want to get rid of important decisions. We just want newer players to not have to go through a stage that is inevitable (unless you want to be playing under a serious disadvantage), in order to improve the retention rate and interest of these players.

So please, think before you speak.

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:07:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson

Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.


Wrong.

Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.


It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.

Did I do it right?

WittyName Here
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:10:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle


CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake.
CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.

There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol

The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.


I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).


How is that an argument against removing learning skills? All the arguments I've seen from you in the last few pages are circular and repetitive - and they have been convincingly defeated. Your lack of anything constructive in this post is a testament to how you have been soundly and logically defeated.

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:10:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson

Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.


Wrong.

Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.


It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.

Did I do it right?


Yes you did, if your point was to act dense and look like a troll.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:12:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle


CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake.
CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.

There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol

The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.


I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).


Yeah, I am a coward because I want to get rid of useless learning skills that I and CCP agree add NOTHING to the game.

lol

WittyName Here
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:15:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson

Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.


Wrong.

Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.


It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.

Did I do it right?


No, you did not do it right, sadly.

Learning skills are redundant since anyone who wants to play this game for an extended period of time, will train it eventually. However, an important issue at stake here is the fact that new players are training it for almost a month, while they are missing out on other opportunities - such as training to salvage, training fitting, support and spaceship command skills so they can advance in missions. The fact is that the learning skills will become an obstruction to the expansion of or active participation of activities, events or "fun" a player wants to participate in.

And even if, as some of you people have suggested, a new player does train their gunnery/spaceship command/missioning/fitting/support skills first, they will eventually realize that they need to train learning skills.

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:18:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson

Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.


Wrong.

Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.


It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.

Did I do it right?


Yes you did, if your point was to act dense and look like a troll.


In a stunning move, the pot tries to call the silver kettle black. More at 11:00.

Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle


CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake.
CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.

There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol

The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.


I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).


Yeah, I am a coward because I want to get rid of useless learning skills that I and CCP agree add NOTHING to the game.

lol


Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:21:00 - [356]
 


WittyName Here
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:26:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: SammyullJackson

Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.


Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.

Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:31:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: SammyullJackson

You're right, I don't enjoy training Learning Skills, any more than I did training race Frigate to IV when I never plan to use Frigates exclusively, or Cruiser to IV so that I get to BSs. I don't enjoy having to train Gunnery up to V so I can use Large turrets, or Drones up to V before I can start getting into the advanced drone skills. But I do it, not because I enjoy it, but because it'll mean more in the long run. You say "YEAH, BUT IT MAKES SENSE RP-WISE -- YOU CAN'T USE BIG GUNS UNTIL YOU HAVE TRAINED IN HOW TO USE GUNS WELL!" News for you: There was a class back when I was in high school called Study Skills, and as stupid as it sounds (especially considering your arguments), you basically learn how to learn. And you know what? As a college student, I found that class damned helpful, because it helped me to be able to do **** like take better/more effective notes and write up better-sounding reports. Learning skills do the same thing -- it may sound 'stupid', but it is possible to train up your coordination (Perception skills), or read self-improvement books (Charisma), or work on your Memory (Take a wild guess what I'm referring to), or read books to learn new things (Intelligence), or take speech classes/do some formal debating (Willpower). EVE simulates an entire world -- and in some ways, life -- otherwise; learning skills take nothing away from the canon whatsoever.

Slippery slope arguement

Slippery slope arguement


The learning skills are unique to all your examples in that they do not provide an actual gaming advantage. They provide an advantage to getting advantages and its a middle man that isn't necessary. The skill tree still requires planning and patience to get the individual to the desired goal. There are aspects of the real world that are unnecessarily tedious that EVE doesn't need to simulate and one of them is sending your toon through college before you start on a career path or else he will millions of SP behind his peers.

Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:36:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: SammyullJackson

Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.


Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.


>implying that such a link doesn't exist

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:39:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: SammyullJackson

Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.


Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.


Wow... so all they say was that a lot of people would be angry about the SP loss. Okay, fine, that's a null point (reallocation, whatever)

I don't see them saying Learning Skills are bad, they're saying that fixing the problem by removing them was a bad idea for various reasons. I didn't hear them say "Ah, well, it's a part of the game, we could remove it, but there's a lot of reasons not to". Just because you remove some of those reasons -- the lost SP issue, for example -- doesn't instantaneously equate to planning to remove the thing itself. It just means they're planning for future possibilities, be it SP microtransactions, skill remaps, and yes, maybe learning skill removal... but it guarantees none of them.

So, with that said, this amazing evidence proves absolutely nothing for your points, nor those of your side's. It just proves that one of you forms loose extrapolation based on a ****load of assumption and inductive reasoning, and everyone parrots it until it turns from someone truthfully saying that "CCP was discussing the nature of learning skills, how complicated it would be to remove them, etc." to the masses of uninformed screaming "CCP SAYS LEARNING SKILLS ARE TEH SUCK!"

So, uh, yeah. Boom goes your dynamite. What kind of metaphor is that, anyway?


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