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Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:40:00 - [1]
 

Instead of buying SP directly from CCP, what if you could only buy existing SP from other players?

Then you'd be able to sell skills you trained and no longer want and it would also be another way to "sell characters" you no longer want but instead, one SP at a time.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:42:00 - [2]
 

A botting/gold-farming dream. So no.

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:43:00 - [3]
 

just stop

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:44:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
just stop

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:45:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Felix Esperium
just stop


Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Tippia
A botting/gold-farming dream. So no.


How does training a character require a bot?

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:47:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Gavjack Bunk on 25/06/2010 00:47:37
Start new character.
Rat in 0.0 diligently logging off everytime somebody enters local.
Pay for your own plex many times over.
Sell character for many times it's sp value, cheerful in the knowledge that it cost very nearly zero dollars to produce.

Laugh at all the newbies who have to $buy PLEX to fund their activities, the very PLEX that you iskBuy off them to fund your character farming.

They pay you to farm the character, then later they buy the character off you for more isk than the sp was worth. A tidy arrangement.

If I was on the dollar free isk multiplying character farming scam, I too would be very much against any measure that threatens it. I'd even go so far as to invent irrational excuses that cannot be justified using reason. Hell, I'd say anything.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:49:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Madam Isk
Originally by: Tippia
A botting/gold-farming dream. So no.
How does training a character require a bot?
The question is rather the opposite: why not use a bot?

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:49:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Gavjack Bunk

Rat in 0.0 diligently logging off everytime somebody enters local.


Sounds just like the current 0.0 alliances...

Your Client
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:50:00 - [10]
 

OMG give it up!

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Felix Esperium
just stop



Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:57:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tippia
The question is rather the opposite: why not use a bot?

LOL because it wouldn't give you any advantage since you can train a character 24/7 without a bot. With the skill que you don't even have to log in that often.

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:03:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Madam Isk on 25/06/2010 01:04:32
Originally by: Felix Esperium
just stop


In other words, nobody has a valid argument against this system. It pretty much negates all of your other arguments.

If you're against this system you have to be against the current character selling system as well.

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:07:00 - [14]
 

depending on how you would implement it, I could have a character permanently training skills that he has maxed attributes for and then sell them for others to use. Do you not see anything wrong with that? It defeats the purpose of even having attributes.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:11:00 - [15]
 

Okay. Since you seem to genuinely not see the reason this is a horrible idea I will spell it out.

People will abuse the system. People will spec alts specifically so that they get the maximum SP/hour, train them up some really common skills that are in high demand, and sell them. They can then, retrain the skill and sell it again.

This will be a Isk sellers pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; Not only could they easier train new character after having old ones banned, but they could dedicate extra alts training and selling their skills for more isk.

It's a virtual LAND MINE of No-No's, and i've only listed two of the main issues it brings to the table.

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:22:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Madam Isk on 25/06/2010 01:22:57
Originally by: Felix Esperium
It defeats the purpose of even having attributes.

Finally a valid point. However, it would be pretty easy to have your attributes effect the application of purchased SP to skills.
Originally by: Blane Xero
People will spec alts specifically so that they get the maximum SP/hour, train them up some really common skills that are in high demand, and sell them. They can then, retrain the skill and sell it again.

Read my question again more carefully and you will see I am not talking about selling skills but skill POINTS that would have to be applied to skills with the same constraints that normal training has.

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:27:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
This will be a Isk sellers pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; Not only could they easier train new character after having old ones banned, but they could dedicate extra alts training and selling their skills for more isk.

*sigh* Have you not realized that they can go BUY A NEW CHARACTER right now after getting banned? They can also "dedicate extra alts training and selling" their CHARACTERS for "more isk".

Next?

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:32:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Madam Isk
However, it would be pretty easy to have your attributes effect the application of purchased SP to skills.



That would affect the people buying the points but not those producing them, which would be the main issue.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:34:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Madam Isk
Originally by: Blane Xero
This will be a Isk sellers pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; Not only could they easier train new character after having old ones banned, but they could dedicate extra alts training and selling their skills for more isk.

*sigh* Have you not realized that they can go BUY A NEW CHARACTER right now after getting banned? They can also "dedicate extra alts training and selling" their CHARACTERS for "more isk".

Next?

If you're selling RAW SP it gets even worse, as people can simply minmax specifically for two attributes and train a metric ass tone of skills even faster and sell the SP.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:37:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 25/06/2010 01:41:49


Or, your idea is so dumb most people don't even feel it's worth the time explaining why you're wrong.


I will be nice and explain just one of the reasons buying skillpoints would be bad:

When I am a six month character, tracking your one year character, I can make certain assumptions about what ships you probably won't be flying in. If you can just buy skills, then you might show up in a carrier. Or I might. Characters become nothing but names on screen and jars to stuff dollar bills into.

Your new idea of players selling their own skillpoints has the added bad idea of enabling a whole new and terrifying element to having your character hacked.

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:49:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
If you're selling RAW SP it gets even worse, as people can simply minmax specifically for two attributes and train a metric ass tone of skills even faster and sell the SP.

OMG. People ALREADY DO THIS! Instead of selling SP they just have to sell the entire character! Yes people use EveMon to maximize skill training to incubate characters which they then sell for isk.

Maybe people just aren't clever enough to be outraged at the character selling system?

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:52:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Madam Isk

OMG. People ALREADY DO THIS! Instead of selling SP they just have to sell the entire character!



They aren't the same thing.


Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:56:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Madam Isk
Originally by: Blane Xero
If you're selling RAW SP it gets even worse, as people can simply minmax specifically for two attributes and train a metric ass tone of skills even faster and sell the SP.

OMG. People ALREADY DO THIS! Instead of selling SP they just have to sell the entire character! Yes people use EveMon to maximize skill training to incubate characters which they then sell for isk.

Maybe people just aren't clever enough to be outraged at the character selling system?

A characters value is based on having the right balance of skills. It is no good it having 20m sp split across 300 skills.

However if the player could sell that 20m sp unassigned, suddenly the constraints of what has been trained is gone. Can you see where i am going or should i stop now?

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 02:04:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
When I am a six month character, tracking your one year character, I can make certain assumptions about what ships you probably won't be flying in. If you can just buy skills, then you might show up in a carrier. Or I might. Characters become nothing but names on screen and jars to stuff dollar bills into.
Your new idea of players selling their own skillpoints has the added bad idea of enabling a whole new and terrifying element to having your character hacked.
So my idea is "so dumb" simply because your assumptions about characters based on their age will be FURTHER skewed? Yes further skewed because for this character you currently do not know if I might be a main with almost 2 years worth of SP or a resub/alt with starting skills. The fact is character age only tells you new characters have little skill points. You don't know crap about older characters based on age.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
They aren't the same thing.
Why? Because you said so?


Before you guys reply, first apply your argument against the existing character selling system.

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.06.25 02:10:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Felix Esperium on 25/06/2010 02:10:12
Originally by: Madam Isk
Originally by: Felix Esperium
They aren't the same thing.
Why? Because you said so?


Before you guys reply, first apply your argument against the existing character selling system.


ok let's do that. When I sell a character now I am left with what? isk and potential alts that may or may not have comparable skills to those of the character I just sold. If I want to sell another character like that one I have to make it from scratch.

In your system let's say I sell a crap ton of SP for isk. Now what am I left with? isk and the same potential alts, but also a character that continues to train at the same rate. This would let me farm and sell more SP much faster since I don't need to get another character started again with learning skills and such.

That work at all for you?

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.06.25 02:51:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 25/06/2010 02:57:00
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 25/06/2010 02:52:59
Originally by: Madam Isk
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
When I am a six month character, tracking your one year character, I can make certain assumptions about what ships you probably won't be flying in. If you can just buy skills, then you might show up in a carrier. Or I might. Characters become nothing but names on screen and jars to stuff dollar bills into.
Your new idea of players selling their own skillpoints has the added bad idea of enabling a whole new and terrifying element to having your character hacked.
So my idea is "so dumb" simply because your assumptions about characters based on their age will be FURTHER skewed? Yes further skewed because for this character you currently do not know if I might be a main with almost 2 years worth of SP or a resub/alt with starting skills. The fact is character age only tells you new characters have little skill points. You don't know crap about older characters based on age.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
They aren't the same thing.
Why? Because you said so?


Before you guys reply, first apply your argument against the existing character selling system.


I know, if I hire you, that you aren't going to suddenly lose all your usefullness to the corp because you sold your skill points.

I know, if I am fighting you, that if you fought me in a well fit Apoc yesterday and you're only a year or two old, I can probably expect you in an Amarr ship the next time I see you.

How is this different than alts? Because alts have different character names. They can be tracked separately.

You are, like I said before, advocating a system where characters are nothing but some text on the screen. It would be impossible to track anyone in your world. That would be unfortunate. It's hard enough to keep straight who is who and what is what currently, and knowing those things is part of what elevates this game above Pacman.

edit: I throw your question back at you. If what you propose really is no different than buying characters, then why do you want to see it? What advantage could it possibly confer over the status quo?


second edit: the stronger point is being made by others above. Your system would turn Eve into a pay to play, pay more to win game. Those games are not fun, at least not for me. How is that different than buying a high SP character? Because DigitalCommunist is not selling his character to the best of my knowledge, nor any of the other ueuber SP'd folks. While theoretically any SP setup could be sold, any given SP setup is of limited quantity. In your system, everyone could, by spending enough cash, be perfect at whatever they wanted. Players who did not pony up cash for optimized, perfect skills would be massively disadvantaged. New players who didn't want to pay up would be screwed.

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 02:52:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
However if the player could sell that 20m sp unassigned, suddenly the constraints of what has been trained is gone. Can you see where i am going or should i stop now?
You can’t think of any design that would limit this? How about only allowing a certain % of SP to be sold per month as a quick example. Don’t assume the system wouldn’t be designed with the obvious exploits in mind. Back in the day when people said CCP should allow attribute remap I’m sure you were the guy saying “NO WAY ARE YOU AN IDIOT that would totally make attributes pointless!” without even thinking maybe a cool-down would make it work.

@Felix Esperium: Yes it does thank you. Basically what you’re saying is that the difference is that selling SP directly would allow people to farm more SP/month than the current system of selling entire characters. I will give you that. The problem is that you’re also saying that you’re fine with people farming SP as long as it’s not too much per month. In that case what is your argument against my example above where you are limited in the % of total SP sold?

Vynel Mortes
Posted - 2010.06.25 03:11:00 - [28]
 

Ok so the concept of buying skills of existing characters is a relatively bad idea, since it takes the concept of a character completely out of the character. Wouldn't make sense that the character does not contain the knowledge it once did, unless of course it died post it's last cloning.

Now that being said what about a system where characters that have the skill to level 5 could possibly mentor corp members in the first 3 levels. Character X has Starship Command at 5, he could set his own training cue to 0 skills and instead forfeit his training points at a reduced rate to the other character to assist them. For example if the character generates 1000 skill points personally for a 24 hr period, perhaps they would grant an additional 20 percent to the character being taught. With a maximum of 1 tutor action being used on a character at a time. That way you don't have gang training or someone using the tutor skill to give SP's to another toon using someone elses SP's to create an SP train.

Just an idea I had kickin around after reading the never ending slew of don't sell skill points posts.


Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.06.25 03:23:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Madam Isk

@Felix Esperium: Yes it does thank you. Basically what you’re saying is that the difference is that selling SP directly would allow people to farm more SP/month than the current system of selling entire characters. I will give you that. The problem is that you’re also saying that you’re fine with people farming SP as long as it’s not too much per month. In that case what is your argument against my example above where you are limited in the % of total SP sold?



It's not just a difference in farming speed. There are other things involved, such as CCP's cut (transfer fees). If something like this happened I imagine it would pretty much kill the character trade because everyone would be able to customize their own character's skills (with your own chosen name and avatar) for cheaper than currently. When you create a character to sell you need to weigh what skills to train in order to make them most attractive. No such thought (or risk) would be present in your system.

Madam Isk
Posted - 2010.06.25 03:37:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Madam Isk on 25/06/2010 03:50:39
Thanks for the replay Emperor Cheney:
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I know, if I hire you, that you aren't going to suddenly lose all your usefullness to the corp because you sold your skill points.
How did you know they had the skill points in the first place? I know… Certificates! ;)

Edit: I misread your sentence to mean "how would you know if somebody sold their SP". I still don't see why this would be a problem. You also don't know if somebody you hired is a spy, is a scammer, is going to get bored of eve, is going to emoragequit, etc etc. I would think them selling their SP would be the least of your worries.

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I know, if I am fighting you, that if you fought me in a well fit Apoc yesterday and you're only a year or two old, I can probably expect you in an Amarr ship the next time I see you.
Right now you won’t know if his Apoc is fit the same. What about T3 cruisers? You know he flies a legion but you won’t know what sub-systems are fit just from their character name. To me this is actually a pro. The more dynamic Eve is the better IMO. Again I also think the system could be implemented where there wouldn’t be DRASTIC changes in SP's from this system which would make this point moot if you could only sell or apply a certain % of their total SP per month.

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I throw your question back at you. If what you propose really is no different than buying characters, then why do you want to see it? What advantage could it possibly confer over the status quo?
TONS of advantages, mainly a LOT of extra flexibility. Say my character has 10mill SP and I have earned enough isk that if I sell it I can buy a new 20mill SP character. Right now I have to take whatever name and portrait matches the skills I am looking for and then have some other player flying my old beloved character. What if I want to keep/choose my name and portrait? What if I just want to sell some indy skills I trained years ago when I was a noob and too poor for pvp or decided PI is boring and want to cash in on the SP I won't be using?

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
the stronger point is being made by others above. Your system would turn Eve into a pay to play, pay more to win game. Those games are not fun, at least not for me. How is that different than buying a high SP character? Because DigitalCommunist is not selling his character to the best of my knowledge, nor any of the other ueuber SP'd folks. While theoretically any SP setup could be sold, any given SP setup is of limited quantity. In your system, everyone could, by spending enough cash, be perfect at whatever they wanted. Players who did not pony up cash for optimized, perfect skills would be massively disadvantaged. New players who didn't want to pay up would be screwed.
I’ll repeat what I said before. The system wouldn’t just be an open ended free for all. It would be designed with these things in mind just like the current character selling system. Many people think the $20 fee to transfer characters is 100% for CCP’s profit but in fact it’s also there to prevent abuse of the system. I'll bet I can think of a solution for any exploits you can come up with.

I still say if the community is OK with people buying characters they should be OK with buying SP assuming it's not in some ******ed fashion that is easily exploited.


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