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blankseplocked How much longer will miners get the shaft?
 
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price checkinho
Posted - 2010.06.22 20:16:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: price checkinho
i thought this was going to be a whine thread about ore price. they tried to fix the ore prices but failed hard.
They are fixed but "fixed" does not mean "more income for miners".
Quote:
Which means my orca pilot is going to be a waste of several months time and half a bil isk, or rather not a waste, but a ****ty investment.
Oh I don't know. You still get the best anti-gank transport in the game.


Lol great reply. I meant fixed as no longer broken. and about the orca pilot, thats why I didnt make a rage quit thread and then not give everyone my stuff. I corrected myself when I said "waste" and changed it to "****ty".

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.06.22 20:19:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Celestine Santora
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.



I like all of these ideas except 5. Collision mechanics are so laughably bad in EVE that the last thing I would like to see is the ability for my ship to die based on what the EVE server thinks is me hitting something.


I covered that in a second post (51) above. Collision spheres need to be addressed anyway, and not just on asteroids. This issue would need to be addressed as part of the mining revamp.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2010.06.22 21:14:00 - [63]
 

Discussion still going huh? Wow! Very Happy

I read about finding other solutions to mining, but i think that will be hard if not impossible to do without changing the entire game, and personally i don't think ccp will do something like that.

A solution could be to make belts (and mebbe the roids in the belt) move around in random directions, this way macroers might have a hard time doing their thing i think.. then again i never used or seen a macro program at work so i might be deadwrong cuz i have no clue how advanceds these proggies are Confused

I tell u this much though, the day ccp manages to make eve macro free, will be the day i will start to believe worldpeace is possible also, so i say, GET TO IT U CCP DEVSLACKERS!!! Laughing

Zargus
Posted - 2010.06.23 04:27:00 - [64]
 

I like the idea of making it slightly more complex with regard to scanning, and perhaps chasing down the belt.

I took a stab at the space mining in SWG *gags* and having a big giant ship that multiple players can operate in, and in the end, having to fly around chasing an asteroid while shooting it to break it down, and then /trying/ to move a behemoth in 3 directions to chase chunks, while keeping macro'ers out, certainly made the point completely...pointless.

My point is, if you over complicate it, then those who truly enjoy relaxing to some mining will find other things to do. However, while that seems like a non issue, since it doesn't effect you, let's apply it to logic that does.

Let's get rid of the macro miners (this is good). We now have a reduced intake of ore to market; this drives up the cost of ships, and fattens the pockets of the faithful true miners in the game. This is good.

Now, let's complicate the system to the point where no one wants to do it because it requires as much, or more of your attention and time than fighting, missioning, pirating, or PI, and now you squeeze the crap outta the market, ship prices skyrocket, and now the average miner like myself is pinched out in the other direction. I can't enjoy playing a game that requires so much attention to detail for every aspect of the game. There really should be some system mechanics in games that allows for cool down, and social time. Mining is perfect for that. It is akin to a crafting system in that I am able to plop recipe items to make widgets, click, drag, repeat. But, I only know of a few games where I have to look over my shoulder, and worry about losing many hours of hard earned widgetX. ShadowBane was one of them. Eve is another. Do you play on the full PvP EQ server while you are crafting?

The idea of going to the other extreme without thought to the middle ground, and balancing issues new systems introduce sounds a little less thought out than it should be.

Shoot for a simple piece that can be added to complicate it just enough that macro software can't read the data, but the average player can find a simple pleasure in it and you have an idea that's worth adding.

Amarante Idama
Gallente
Drunken Armed Pilots
Posted - 2010.06.23 05:08:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
Originally by: 000Hunter000
but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peaceugh

So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F71qUtDlNu4]Yes, yes it is.[/url]

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2010.06.23 09:03:00 - [66]
 

If I recall right, they were going to make asteroid belts so you would need to probe them at some point (2007 or so) but apparenly there was so much whining about how difficult it would be to find veldspar so they gave up that idea.

Making belts so you would need to scan them and changing mining mechanics in a way that doesn't need constant clicking of same damn asteroid (= makes it macroable) would probably improve mining a lot as an experience.

Also is there really need for so much minerals in hi sec, really.



Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.06.23 09:14:00 - [67]
 

If you move belts to scanning only, the grav sites spawning in 1.0 to 0.9 or 0.8 can spawn with a public beacon and only contain veldspar and some scordite. So there won't be any difficulty finding that stuff for noobs. Starter systems could have secured sites for them that are only accessible by frigates, then again, teaching them how to scan those grav sites down would be prudent anyway.

System wide belts can be emulated by spawning sites only in certain locations. Considering this method is already used in a way by the planetary launch containers from PCCs, adapting that for a grav site spawn (or really any other exploration site) should not be all too difficult. Really dense belts can then be simulated by particle asteroids on the site and a backdrop like the gas cloud environment found in recon 3/3.

All it really needs are development resources, ie, a scrum team on it.

Aruvqan
Amarr
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.06.24 14:41:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Karosaki
Sadly fighting macro miners and other bots is a very difficult problem, and if it was possible to reliably distinguish between the bots and people without seriously ****ing off the players CCP would have done it already.

As for mining profession getting shafted, I really don't understand what you mean. If you enjoy mining why not continue doing it? It's not like you are actually loosing isk while doing so. I don't feel that mining is being neglected by CCP. I mean recently you got wormhole mining and null sec anomalies. Mining on planets is completely new minigame thats just a few weeks old.

If you don't like the income you receive while mining thats a different story. If CCP adds something the increase yields then everyone will be doing it and the mineral prices will just drop even more.
I report macro miners when I run into them in the belts, and I see the same damned miners out there day after day. It is not difficult to see who the macro miners are, they warp to a fair distance from the belt, then they rewarp to specific roids and cherry pick the good roids and warp out when they are full. Lather rinse repeat. I don't think mining needs fixing, I think macro miners need to be kicked out of the game. [FWIW, I generally mine for my corp ship replacement program and ice products, not for profit. I get profit in other ways]

Macvombat
Posted - 2010.06.24 14:44:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
I like how people who have no experience automating tasks with macro scripting software come up with ideas to 'make it harder' for the macro guys. The only problem is that the changes only make it harder for a very short period of time, and once the macros are re-written everything is back to where it was before. So the only real way to thwart the macros is to completely change the whole system every couple weeks, and I seriously doubt that is going to happen.


as far as i know a macro works by repeating the same action over and over again, thus making macro ratting, mining w/e possible. if you do as someone suggested and made astroids NOT visible on our dear overview, and added some chance in mining.. surely the macros would render useless in mining.. i have heard about bots that works by looking for certain phrases on your screen though.. i know nothing about this so i wont touch the subject.

But as long as repetitive actions can be made there will be simple macros able to do these for you. also, i like the idea of actually having to put some effort into mining. i find the excuse that "some people like to mine while doing other things" pretty amusing. Macro miners like to mine while they sleep

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.24 14:45:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Legs Mackenzie
I like the pun though.


Indeed. The pun gets many propps. Whatever propps are.

plastastic
Posted - 2010.06.24 14:56:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Zeet A'Dron
I'm one of those weird people that likes to mine. Something about playing with pretend widgets balances me mentally after a day of craziness. There are a lot of reasons to like eve, but I started because the industry stuff showed promise. I'm the kinda guy that picked up UO , walked out into the woods and cut down my own bows, gutted my own chicken for feathers and assembled the first step to my financial victory in the backwoods of Yew.

I'd like to thank CCP for recent changes to mission loot to give the miner a step up but really your track record on doing anything for this 'sphere' in Eve is deplorable. Don't get me wrong, I love you but i give you a big WTF when it comes to mining.

Lets review:

Nothing really done to sort out macro miners so the real ones get the shaft since 2004 for me.

The actual process of mining has not changed. None of the nuiances differ. I mean not a single new ore type, no attempts to tweak time spent vs rewards reaped for this subgroup. If you played EQ2 crafting you could come up with all kinds of ideas. Just interchange the fantasy graphics and replace the word "progress" with "ore extraction rate" and durability with "chance my mining laser array is going to blow up" and you've made a new mini game.

In fact it could be argued the average miner was put to further disadvantage with Dominion because now they have to scan down their grav sites in 00. Is this a big deal? Not for most 00 miners. Of course we mine in groups a lot in 00 but its still the principal of the matter.

Every other major system in Eve has either been appended after mining or has otherwise seen at least some overhaul since except for tradegoods.....oh wait.


I think you should consider adding on to the existing mining paradigm. I suggest the changes would allow the existing system to stay in place while adding new bonus and benefits through some type of new interactive mining process (again, akin to Eq2).


We did get the orca and leadership stuff which is indeed a leg up. But if you follow the current way ore enters into the game world it comes from two sources:

macro miners and the guy who gets screwed over because of crappy mineral prices.


Now, I could stop mining and go do PI --- or maybe even play another game, but if there was any indication from CCP in the next few months that this would be fixed you'd be pushing 60-70k pcu np.



prices are not decided by the macro miners there decided by the insurance price
miners got the shaft solely because of the insurance changes

before the change you were able to build, insure and blow up a ship for the same cost and profit margin as selling it(with all Lev 5 skills for building and a reasonable ME blueprint). This held minerals at a base price.

Now that it is gone ship prices are dropping with the trit prices

but yea adding more to mining cant be a bad thing just change back insurance so you can make isk while doing it.

Flyinghotpocket
ASPIRE Commandos
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:11:00 - [72]
 

CCP can upgrade this secction..for instance. add minable comets. creat a real asteriod field not these "rings" you ever played freelancer? asteriod fields are massive there. Add some faction mining barges. Create a "Mining Tournament" the team who mines the most in 1 day gets the super l33t new mining barge. Get creative. im not the only one with ideas like this.

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:15:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Kazzzi on 24/06/2010 15:15:41
Originally by: Flyinghotpocket
Add some faction mining barges. Create a "Mining Tournament" the team who mines the most in 1 day gets the super l33t new mining barge.


You would never be able to undock those.

EDIT: I feel dirty for posting in a mining tread

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:22:00 - [74]
 

ITT: people just not understanding that making it so that miners can mine more will not help at all.

Dr NAthan
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:29:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/06/2010 12:29:25
Be careful what you wish for.

Before you know it CCP introduces a new mining system that is a 'framework' and will be (lol) expanded in later iterations.



I think mining needs a total revamp, something like where you need to fly through large asteroid belt (nothing comparable to current belts, and they would need to fix the crappy bumping radius of most roids), and scan for useful asteroids, which could just be survey scanner, and then when you find a potential interesting asteroid you do a more precise scan and specificly target ore deposits of the rock.

Ah well just fantasizing a bit.


This sounds interesting tbh.

I always thought having a small % chance to get a really rare mineral like diamond/gold ect that you can trade in to NPC corps for alot of trit/mex ect

Have like stupid rare ore that is 00000000.1% chance or something.

I think this would add that random factor of what belt ratters get with factions spawns.

Something like this should not be implemented until the broken system of macro's are sorted though, maybe CCP need the macros to keep the market stable because they seem to let them roam free in game.

Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:32:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Indeterminacy on 24/06/2010 15:33:07
Originally by: Skippermonkey
Originally by: 000Hunter000
but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peaceugh

So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?


It's all gonna work out fine in the end bro. You're just being impatient. Give them some more time.

EDIT: by them I don't mean 'the americans'...I mean everyone else. Wink

Grandpa Dragonbone
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:35:00 - [77]
 

I for one enjoy mining as it is. I have a very stressful career IRL and I like that i can sit there and semi-veg. I can chat with friends, surf the web, kill a few rats and I can do this for hours. I don't do missions (I have done any in months) I don't do manufacturing or any of the many other aspects of this game.

My two year olf daughter loves to come sit on my lap and stare at the screen and bang on my keyboard while im mining. It one of the most relaxing things I have ever been able to do while still "gaming." I have played Anarchy Online, Everquest, everquest 2. wow, aion, doac and the list goes on and on... minin in Eve is the best gaming experience I can have in my full and stressful life.

I appreciate the Origional Posters views and I think there should be other mining options for those who want more, but I only hope that it doesn't change the game for those of us that like current roid fields as they exist now.

Fugly duck
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:44:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Grandpa Dragonbone
I for one enjoy mining as it is. I have a very stressful career IRL and I like that i can sit there and semi-veg. I can chat with friends, surf the web, kill a few rats and I can do this for hours. I don't do missions (I have done any in months) I don't do manufacturing or any of the many other aspects of this game.

My two year olf daughter loves to come sit on my lap and stare at the screen and bang on my keyboard while im mining. It one of the most relaxing things I have ever been able to do while still "gaming." I have played Anarchy Online, Everquest, everquest 2. wow, aion, doac and the list goes on and on... minin in Eve is the best gaming experience I can have in my full and stressful life.

I appreciate the Origional Posters views and I think there should be other mining options for those who want more, but I only hope that it doesn't change the game for those of us that like current roid fields as they exist now.


Very good point indeed, I can see how the current system benefits the more casual gamer, and you guys are probably the ones who keep the market stacked with mins tbh as there are a lot of people like you.

The interest this topic has git shows people are wanting more from mining for sure, something I have never got into but would if it was more appealing and had some random factors to it.


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