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Backfyre
Posted - 2010.06.17 17:41:00 - [1]
 

I am trying to fit an Ishtar but am stuck on more DPS vs more EHP for 0.0 operations.

Constraints:
* no faction gear
* cannot yet use T2 heavy or sentry drones
* hybrid turrets

Per EFT, tradeoff is 328 DPS / 22k EHP VS 269 DPS / 32k EHP. The difference is whether or not to trade 2x railguns (& reactor control) for a 800mm plate. The bulk of the DPS is either T2 med or T1 heavy drones. All else is unchanged (active tank; web/scram/AB mids; sm/med neuts)

My 2 scenarios are:

1. Solo 0.0 plexing in alliance space - may get jumped and call for help or respond to a local call for help
2. small gang PvP (no logistics ships)

This is not for 1-vs-1 PvP

I am still a 0.0 and PvP noob so need advice from those who've been there. I ran the railgun version through a L4 drone combat mission. It killed the rats slowly, but it worked. Without the rails, ratting is even more painful. Is the tradeoff a tossup?

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2010.06.17 17:52:00 - [2]
 

300 DPS? You're doing something horribly wrong. Try a deimos or something.

gpfault
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.17 17:59:00 - [3]
 

Post the fits you're considering using. Your numbers seem a little low for an ishtar so I'll go out on a limb and say you should probably stick to a myrm/dominix until you've improved your support skills a bit.

Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:03:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: gpfault
Post the fits you're considering using. Your numbers seem a little low for an ishtar so I'll go out on a limb and say you should probably stick to a myrm/dominix until you've improved your support skills a bit.


^^ This.

I'm also guessing your skills aren't high enough to competently fly the ishtar quite yet. Also, if you're willing, post your skills on eveboard and maybe we can help give you a little direction.

Backfyre
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:17:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Backfyre on 17/06/2010 18:34:39
Edited by: Backfyre on 17/06/2010 18:19:30
Here is my current railgun fit option:

[Ishtar]
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Mark I Generator Refitting: Reaction Control
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Cap Recharger II
Medium Brief Capacitor Overcharge I, Cap Booster 400
Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Patterned Stasis Web I
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I

200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Medium 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I
Small 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I
Small Remote Armor Repair System I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

Valkyrie II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Berserker I x5
Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x3
Medium Shield Maintenance Bot I x2
Vespa EC-600 x5

DPS: 328
EHP: 22,400
CPU: 340 / 356
PG: 938 / 962

The non-railgun fit trades the reactor control and 2x railguns for a 800mm plate. With my Deimos, I get 500+ DPS just from the blasters so 328 for 5x bezerker I & 2x rails is a bit disappointing.

Edit:

Could get:
[*] 378 DPS with Bouncer I & sentry damage rig
[*] 440 DPS with Bouncer II (cannot use yet)

Still just "meh"

Medea Darklighter
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:19:00 - [6]
 

There's only one thing that can explain your numbers:
You've been a naught boy and haven't trained drone interfacing.

Do it! DI IV or (ideally)V is mandatory for the ishtar and any other serious droneboat.

gpfault
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:20:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Backfyre
Here is my current railgun fit option:

[Ishtar]
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Mark I Generator Refitting: Reaction Control
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Cap Recharger II
Medium Brief Capacitor Overcharge I, Cap Booster 400
Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Patterned Stasis Web I
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I

200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Medium 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I
Small 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I
Small Remote Armor Repair System I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

Valkyrie II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Berserker I x5
Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x3
Medium Shield Maintenance Bot I x2
Vespa EC-600 x5


Confused

Why do you have long range guns and short range tackle?
Why do you have an injector and cap recharge mods?
Why do you have an afterburner on a 0.0 pvp ship?
Why do you have a frigate sized plate?

Also, don't take the ship name out of the EFT export. It breaks EFT's import from clipboard feature.

Quote:
The non-railgun fit trades the reactor control and 2x railguns for a 800mm plate. With my Deimos, I get 500+ DPS just from the blasters so 328 for 5x bezerker I & 2x rails is a bit disappointing..


In the interests of science could you post your deimos fit too?

MWDrive
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Backfyre
* cannot yet use T2 heavy or sentry drones

I am still a 0.0 and PvP noob so

I'd suggest you stay away from ishtar for a while.

Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:55:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Footoo Rama on 17/06/2010 19:59:15
Honestly I use a Ishtar for 0.0 ratting, I do not use it for PvP... Drones alone you can do about 550 dps using Sentry II's


For PvP honestly look at a Domi it is 2/3rds cheaper, more insurable and they function very similarly. The 2 ships are very very similar in terms of uses and DPS. Yes the Domi is slow to align and move on the field, but you have alot more DPS and much easier to fit with lower skills.

The Ishtar really requires very good drone skills to be awesome, other wise you are using it in a role that it is price prohibitive to use it for. Heavy drones are fail unless you are blaster fit and already up close and in their face, something I recommend not doing in an ishtar... Deimos is the ship for that.

Train T2 sentry ASAP for PvE in either ship.

Or since you are new to PvP use a Vexor they work like Ishtars with a smaller drone bay, and are alot cheaper.

FYI this is my 0.0 ratter it needs Hac 4 for the drones, but you can drop the mediums if you have hac 3. Remember most people will not jump a solo ishtar that has t2 drones out unless they are in a caldari jamming boat, or have friends, either way a web will not help you out.

[Ishtar, 0.0ratter Gurista]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Capacitor Power Relay I
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Sensor Booster I

Drone Link Augmentor I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I

Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

or drop the dronelink and SeBo II for another cap recharger and a prober if you want. It depends if you want to work outside 70km or not. Either is cap stable with tank running. Tanks about 480 vs gurista

Backfyre
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:55:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Medea Darklighter
There's only one thing that can explain your numbers:
You've been a naught boy and haven't trained drone interfacing.

Do it! DI IV or (ideally)V is mandatory for the ishtar and any other serious droneboat.

My drone interfacing skill has been at V for a very long time. Heavy assault ship skill is at 4. Also, yes, I use the most recent character download in EFT. Perhaps there is a problem with (my use of?) EFT.
Quote:
Why do you have long range guns and short range tackle?
Why do you have an injector and cap recharge mods?
Why do you have an afterburner on a 0.0 pvp ship?
Why do you have a frigate sized plate?


1. Ship mission is not to be a tackler, but want to be able to respond in kind if plexing or responding to local call for assistance. Was thinking rails for plexing, but am rethinking toward blasters.
2. cap recharger & injector - wondering this myself. My thinking was - rechargers to maintain extended duration tank for plexing ops. Injector for when I get jumped & neuted while plexing.
3. AB - not disabled by scrambler. Also need to speed tank plexes. It is a compromise.
4. 800mm plate does not fit. Short by 170 power grid. I have seen that several people just don't put hybrid guns on an Ishtar. Many prefer 800 or 1600mm plate and leave several high slots empty.

Part of the issue is the fit is not min/maxed for plex or PvP. It is a compromise for plexing while still having some PvP hardening.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:57:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 17/06/2010 19:58:23
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
300 DPS? You're doing something horribly wrong.


Indeed. Everyone underestimates T2 sentries. And most people underestimate T2 heavies. Without those options, an Ishtar just isn't a good choice.

A reasonable fit, blatantly stolen from (I think) Footoo:

[Ishtar, 0.0ratter Gurista]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Capacitor Power Relay I
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Sensor Booster I

Drone Link Augmentor I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I

Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Downgrade where you have to, but keep in mind that CPU limitations on drone boats are brutal nomatter what.

Edit: Oh, and suck it up and get the T2 drones. An Ishtar without them is ridiculous.

Backfyre
Posted - 2010.06.17 20:46:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Oh, and suck it up and get the T2 drones. An Ishtar without them is ridiculous.

I had the inkling that ^^^ is the bottom line. This will be the summer of drone training for me.

The PvE fits are appreciated but do not match my parameters - need some PvP hardening. However, they do show the CPU / Powergrid issue by leaving 2 empty high slots and placing a salvager/tractor pair in the other.

Decided I will go blaster fit until drone skills improve. EFT shows 450 DPS in that case - get a mag stab II and 3x heavy ion blaster II. It's not pretty, but, hey, it's Gallente.

Thanks for the responses!

Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.06.17 22:01:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Footoo Rama on 17/06/2010 22:05:08
Edited by: Footoo Rama on 17/06/2010 22:04:15
If your blaster fitting an Ishtar and you do not have t2 Sentries... Honestly its going to be a pretty fail fit, it will take you forever to kill rats. Look at the deimos instead...

418 dps with Hammerhead II's a long point. 57k EHP... Tanks 564 vs Gurista and is cap stable with the tank and guns going. Fit rigs and extra high slot to taste... maybe a medium nos to help replenish cap in PvE after burning into targets. Hell you could even rail fit this ship. Rigs could be trimark CCC or resists, depends on your skills and how you want to bias this ship.

Or pull the DCII for a Mag stab your tank goes to 479 and 45,300ehp but you get 478 dps...

Honestly this is a way better fit for what you want to do then how you have your Ishtar set up.

[Deimos, blaster pve/pvp]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II

Modal Ion Particle Accelerator I, Antimatter Charge M
Modal Ion Particle Accelerator I, Antimatter Charge M
Modal Ion Particle Accelerator I, Antimatter Charge M
Modal Ion Particle Accelerator I, Antimatter Charge M
Modal Ion Particle Accelerator I, Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]



Hammerhead II x5

or with rails... doing 342 dps or more with a mag stab swap for DCII

[Deimos, blaster pve/pvp rails]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]



Hammerhead II x5

Backfyre
Posted - 2010.06.17 22:44:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Footoo Rama
418 dps with Hammerhead II's a long point. 57k EHP... Tanks 564 vs Gurista and is cap stable with the tank and guns going. Fit rigs and extra high slot to taste... maybe a medium nos to help replenish cap in PvE after burning into targets. Hell you could even rail fit this ship. Rigs could be trimark CCC or resists, depends on your skills and how you want to bias this ship.

Or pull the DCII for a Mag stab your tank goes to 479 and 45,300ehp but you get 478 dps...

Honestly this is a way better fit for what you want to do then how you have your Ishtar set up.

My deimos fit has plenty of DPS. I realized my Ishtar fit was weak, hence the topic of this thread. Answer == T2 heavy / sentry drones. Until then, it will have weak DPS.

EHP VS gurista is a nonsense statistic as it plays to the baseline resist strength of the Gallente T2 ships. How is your tank against explosive? What is your MWD worth if somebody drops a scrambler on your fit? To be PvP hardened, I see needing scram / web / neut. Add that to a PvE active speed tank. Those are my directions of thought for what is an ugly stepchild scenario. The question at hand is how to do that with an Ishtar.

Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.06.18 06:20:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Backfyre
Originally by: Footoo Rama
418 dps with Hammerhead II's a long point. 57k EHP... Tanks 564 vs Gurista and is cap stable with the tank and guns going. Fit rigs and extra high slot to taste... maybe a medium nos to help replenish cap in PvE after burning into targets. Hell you could even rail fit this ship. Rigs could be trimark CCC or resists, depends on your skills and how you want to bias this ship.

Or pull the DCII for a Mag stab your tank goes to 479 and 45,300ehp but you get 478 dps...

Honestly this is a way better fit for what you want to do then how you have your Ishtar set up.

My deimos fit has plenty of DPS. I realized my Ishtar fit was weak, hence the topic of this thread. Answer == T2 heavy / sentry drones. Until then, it will have weak DPS.

EHP VS gurista is a nonsense statistic as it plays to the baseline resist strength of the Gallente T2 ships. How is your tank against explosive? What is your MWD worth if somebody drops a scrambler on your fit? To be PvP hardened, I see needing scram / web / neut. Add that to a PvE active speed tank. Those are my directions of thought for what is an ugly stepchild scenario. The question at hand is how to do that with an Ishtar.


I'm sorry you have a fail fit... I am trying to help.. you posted in the original thread you wanted more EHP for PvP operations, I gave you almost 3x the EHP, granted I used vs Gurista for your sustained tank, but you could swap your hardener for your local rats. Or put an explosive hardener on, either way the builds I suggested are better for you.

As for MWD being scrammed... fine run an AB.. but running an AB on a blaster ship is a joke...

With your skills the Deimos is way better for you. Basically I am glad you have an ishtar, they are great ships for PvP or esp for PvE but you really need more drone skills for an ish. The adage never fly what you cannot afford to loose apply here, in this case it appears you cannot by the correct ship for your skills and what you want to do, and you purchased an Ish and cannot afford the correct ship.

Why so many people here recommended the Domi. Basically an Ishtar is a Domi, with some differences. The DOmi is less skill intensive and has way more slots. It is also a hell of a lot cheaper to fit and lose to boot. Your skill set and what you want to do works in a domi as it has more slots, in the Ish you start to run into dps problems.

Do what you want, I gave you valid advice for what you stated you wanted to do, and everyone here said the Ishtar is not a good idea. Diemos is perfect and the Domi is great and cheaper. If you want to rat in an ishtar without Sentry II's and using blasters have fun making about 10 million an hour. I can run 45 mill an hour all day long. The diemos I posted esp if you go to rails should make about 20 mill or more an hour and solo sanctums, and be better in pvp.

I'm sorry if you do not understand the game, and while admitting you do not know what to do, admonish people trying to help as not understanding the game...

Good Luck Have fun, and remember I told you so when you get podded in the Ishtar or have no money because it takes so long to kill rats.

Terazuk
Amarr
Servants of Drawnon
Posted - 2010.06.18 06:53:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Terazuk on 18/06/2010 06:54:40
Something to work towards for you...

[Ishtar, Solo/Roam]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Inertia Stabilizers II
Inertia Stabilizers II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Berserker II x5
Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x5
Hammerhead II x5


37k EHP

Neuts, to deal with nasty scrammy friggies let them chase full burn, turn, bumrush and ****. The short range medium blasters may seem an anathema on ship fitted to kite but the drones are your primary damage. The guns are for drones & contingencies and finishing your target close range when forced to. The neuts will also stop drones dead in their tracks for easy pwnage. Personally I use dual 180mm autos for this job, considerably better at dealing with drone/inty aggro + capless \o/.

As a further note, the T2 EM rig may seem an extravagance but it really isn't... tis cheap as chips.

Edit~

This is also my preferred ratting ship (when I can be bothered, meh!)of choice. Booooong!

MWDrive
Posted - 2010.06.18 07:38:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Backfyre
What is your MWD worth if somebody drops a scrambler on your fit?

Are you suggesting we should all be fitting AB instead of MWD cause of scramblers?


 

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