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Flashh Gorden
Caldari
Exile Consortium
Nihilists Social Club
Posted - 2010.06.17 15:17:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?

Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?

CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

I do feel for anyone who loses a ship too lag it happens in FW often but the player must take some responsibility by avoiding the oversized fleets.


BuIIseye
Amarr
Rossum Technology
Posted - 2010.06.17 15:32:00 - [2]
 

If you can find a way to discourage blob that is both effective and balanced then you can probably bring peace betwen the Israelis and Palestinians as well.

KOBK 83
Minmatar
Rim Collection RC
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.06.17 15:32:00 - [3]
 

Dood u don't know what u are talking.we users pay for service(eve) in cash, we have right to use this service the way we want, if u cant provide this service we will find other service providers, AMEN (English not my primary language)

Cpt Underpants
Caldari
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 15:56:00 - [4]
 

Mate, prior to Apocrypha, I was in fleet battles up to 1500 people with lag that was manageable. Now anything more than about 700 is unmanageable.

But else what do you expect from a character who has spent the majority of their eve life in high-sec? Grow some trouser-assets.

Schani Kratnorr
Amarr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.06.17 16:00:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?

The current design of sovereignty structures (ihub, tcu, sbu) encourages large numbers of players in one system. If you combine that with the usual "there's a fight and everyone wants to come"-problem, it is easy to understand why we inevitably end up with "as many as can fit." So to some extent blobbing is partly a design flaw and partly a result of human nature.

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?

As long as there is a reason for people to pile into one system, they will do so yes.

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

This would not prevent blobbing in any way. Either people will pile more corps into the "attack alliance" they created prior to invading, or they will simply ignore the fleet bonuses and pile even more players into target system - thus killing the node(s) in question.

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
I do feel for anyone who loses a ship too lag it happens in FW often but the player must take some responsibility by avoiding the oversized fleets.

Granted I as a player can tell my CEO/directors to **** off with their blobbing warfare. Am I likely to do that - not at all.

I know that I need to live with the game as it is and try to get things done in spite of any problems that arise. I know there is a chance of not loading or blowing up in a system I have already left. Knowing not to bring any ship I cannot afford to loose is a good start. In fact, sitting in a ship and thinking of it as "already lost," is arguably the best choice.

Also, on lag
"Lag" does not exist. Instead there are performance issues. Fact remains, prior to dominion larger blobs were possible. The general consensus is, that Dominion introduced "something" new. Something that reduced performance by around one third - it is this (new) problem that needs fixing.

Oh and. This entire thread probably belong in the Features and Ideas Discussion forum.

Danny Lonnegan
Caldari
United Amarr Templar Legion
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.06.17 16:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?

Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?

CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

I do feel for anyone who loses a ship too lag it happens in FW often but the player must take some responsibility by avoiding the oversized fleets.


Fleet size caps wouldn't do much. Fleets are important for broadcasts and bonuses, but it wouldn't take too much effort to break large fleets into smaller ones, each with their own internal logistics assigned and a fleet sub-commander who handles fleet warps and the like. The most important thing is voice comms, and there's nothing CCP can do to prevent, say, five medium sized fleets from all using the same channel with the same FC. It would make things more cumbersome and annoying, but it wouldn't stop blobs. Lag is already a worse penalty than this, and it hasn't stopped anyone from blobbing.

Penalizing mixed-alliance fleets, meanwhile, just encourages the formation of more super-alliances and gives big alliances another advantage over small ones. Instead of eliminating blobs, it just makes them harder to counter if you don't have equal numbers.

EVE mechanics, all other things being equal, favor larger fleets over smaller ones. All talk about ~*goodfites*~ aside, people want to win and will bring numbers because that's the easiest way to do it. I don't think there's a way to fix blobs without fundamentally altering those mechanics--or, at least, if there is, I'm not smart enough to see it. That said, I don't actually think, if lag were fixed, that you'd see fleets get that much bigger, because as near as I can tell, the big coalitions and alliances are already bringing everyone they can into the fight. I don't think most of them are going to be able to find another 500 pilots for most fights.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 16:13:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?


*sigh*

Another empiredweller lecturing 0.0'ers on how we should spend our playtime.

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?


Let me point you to the time prior to Dominion, when fights with 1000-1500 weren't as impossible as it is now.

Now, let me point you to the time after Dominion, whereyou can, if you're very lucky, experience gridload issues with less than 100 in local, sudden socket disconnects, bugs when you cyno out (which caused the NC titans that got out to die, for example), etc etc etc.

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

Or we can have a new system set in place where the FCs open up a special petition, decide what the fight is going to be about, and press a button named "magic eightball" to see who wins.

It'll be just as fair as it is today, with post-Dominion **** code.

Dominatus Crispus
Gallente
Nation of Muppets
Real Life Rejects
Posted - 2010.06.17 16:32:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: KOBK 83
Dood u don't know what u are talking.we users pay for service(eve) in cash, we have right to use this service the way we want, if u cant provide this service we will find other service providers, AMEN (English not my primary language)
please go find other service providers...

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.06.17 16:57:00 - [9]
 

I believe one part of this are the grafical effect. If you jump into a system with 1000 people and, even if you turned them off, the system needs to load the effects of every ship (sensor boosters, ECCM, tracking enhancers, scamblers, missiles, guns, hardeners whatsoever). I think that it takes a big part in it and most of the stuff is hardly needed.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 17:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Naomi Wildfire
I believe one part of this are the grafical effect. If you jump into a system with 1000 people and, even if you turned them off, the system needs to load the effects of every ship (sensor boosters, ECCM, tracking enhancers, scamblers, missiles, guns, hardeners whatsoever). I think that it takes a big part in it and most of the stuff is hardly needed.

All of that is client-side, and will only cause you to decrease your fps. Lag, as in module lag, and issues with loading grid has nothing to do with any effects.

Le Sabre
Gallente
The Dead Canary Mining Corporation
Legion of Honor
Posted - 2010.06.17 17:03:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lord TGR
Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?


*sigh*

Another empiredweller lecturing 0.0'ers on how we should spend our playtime.


But, he does have a point. Most 0.0 guys who have experienced the lag monsters wrath know that sending a huge fleet almost guarantees problems, yet still the huge fleets get sent. Its not the fault of anyone involved, but they should expect to see problems if piling into a system and not complain like they've been wronged somehow.

In my eyes, eve is an incredibly complex game, when you factor in everything that goes on from minute to minute across the whole universe. I find it amazing that it runs at all. If these type of games were easy to make and worked perfectly or near as, there would be loads more games of this type to buy than just 'Eve'.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:00:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Le Sabre
But, he does have a point. Most 0.0 guys who have experienced the lag monsters wrath know that sending a huge fleet almost guarantees problems, yet still the huge fleets get sent. Its not the fault of anyone involved, but they should expect to see problems if piling into a system and not complain like they've been wronged somehow.

Except for one small thing. The lag monster has bitten people with less than 100 in total in local, and it's biting the heads of people so randomly that it's a bit of a coin tossup whether or not you'll ever load grid whenever you jump into a system.

TQ was at least behaving more or less consistently prior to Dominion, and that's what everybody and their dog are whining about now, not lag in and of itself.

Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?

Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?

CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

I do feel for anyone who loses a ship too lag it happens in FW often but the player must take some responsibility by avoiding the oversized fleets.


All I have to say is I was in a fight in fountain pre dominion with 1400 players and lag was manageble.. to a far better degree that it has been in any 400+ encounter I've participated in after dominion.

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:04:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Lord TGR
Originally by: Naomi Wildfire
I believe one part of this are the grafical effect. If you jump into a system with 1000 people and, even if you turned them off, the system needs to load the effects of every ship (sensor boosters, ECCM, tracking enhancers, scamblers, missiles, guns, hardeners whatsoever). I think that it takes a big part in it and most of the stuff is hardly needed.

All of that is client-side, and will only cause you to decrease your fps. Lag, as in module lag, and issues with loading grid has nothing to do with any effects.


The effects are ofc client side, but how does the client know what effects are enabled and in use? Right, the server tells it to display the effects that are active.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:48:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Naomi Wildfire
The effects are ofc client side, but how does the client know what effects are enabled and in use? Right, the server tells it to display the effects that are active.

And that would most likely culminate in module lag, which we saw very little of, comparateively speaking. Certainly not enough to warrant a 30+ minute period of watching the IT/init fleet warping around on grid and shooting stuff, before finally swapping over to the next system.

In short, no, I do not think those effects have any bearing on lag whatsoever, it certainly hasn't been any part of the mass testing performed so far.

Nlewis
Caldari
Nomad LLP
Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:04:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Nlewis on 17/06/2010 19:05:33
Originally by: BuIIseye
If you can find a way to discourage blob that is both effective and balanced then you can probably bring peace betwen the Israelis and Palestinians as well.


pretty much the only way you can stop blobbing is hard caps on the number of people in system so it's not going to happen. There is literally no way to balance any type of random penalties or other types of stupid wizardry for having a bunch of people

zljuka
Caldari
Dark Voodoo Cult
Red Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.17 20:39:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: zljuka on 17/06/2010 20:40:36
don't wanna dissapoint you guys but blobbing actually hasn't reached it possible tops with current gameplay. Yesterday in this epic fight in 6NJ, the only thing that stopped other neighboring aliances from rushing into the battle were lags. Eve is rather a small universe. Jumping 25-30 systems to participate in epic battle is well worth it, bridges and titan-bridges make it even simplier. If lags get manageable in 1500 locals, we will see 2000+ ppl locals complaining about lags. But this will be anyway a big step forward.

Rakessh
Caldari
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 21:10:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?

Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?

CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

I do feel for anyone who loses a ship too lag it happens in FW often but the player must take some responsibility by avoiding the oversized fleets.




The amount you can fix the servers to reduce lag and the amount of people you can bring are both a finite number, CCP simply needs to make sure the fix amount is higher than the number of people that can be brought, to overcome lag... Sooner or later, you simply run out of buddies to bring, and won't be able to lag out the system anymore... I bet; later :P

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 21:12:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: zljuka
Edited by: zljuka on 17/06/2010 20:40:36
If lags get manageable in 1500 locals, we will see 2000+ ppl locals complaining about lags. But this will be anyway a big step forward.

From a bitter vet on another board:
Quote:
The battle where shrike died had more than 2,000 in local and i could warp, shoot and stuff, it was laggy as **** but nothing compared to how it is now.


We have had 2000+ and it was usable. H-W got to a little over 1000 and went ape****, dropping connections of people who are already in system and not letting people even log back in. That's a huge difference.

zljuka
Caldari
Dark Voodoo Cult
Red Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.17 21:20:00 - [20]
 

yeah, we have had battles still enjoyable in local 2000, but it was in times TQ had 30000 peak players at same time, now it's 50000.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.17 21:32:00 - [21]
 

Which means that if we were to grow the fight size, we would be expecting 3500+ in system, not 500 and change (and still hope to god you don't blackscreen).

Trinity Faetal
Gallente
Little Garden
Posted - 2010.06.18 17:32:00 - [22]
 

I think they should further expand planetary interaction.

Ace Frehley
Minmatar
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.06.18 17:37:00 - [23]
 

I think we should all fight at spacebook instead, or spacevill or something Very Happy

Qolde
Minmatar
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.06.19 04:00:00 - [24]
 

I have a fix to lag that only the players can implement. Everyone gang up on the biggest alliances until they break apart into smaller entities. As this goes on, the politics will become unmanageable for all the small 100 man corps, and 500 man alliances resulting from this mad plan. Sure, the big guys would have to break up their naptrains to implement this. One can dream, right?

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2010.06.19 10:40:00 - [25]
 

If CCP fixes the lagg I would be happy to go get a few Revelations blown up. Just to watch. I've never actually seen my ship blow up in a fleet battle. Might be cool to watch.

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.06.19 22:07:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 17/06/2010 15:17:58
Everyone is bashing CCP about lag but what do people ohnestly expect bringing so many people to a single battle?

Its a never ending problem, if by some miracle they enabled a thousand man lag free battles,how long before people bring 1500 and we are back to square one again?

CCP should look into giving single alliance fleets bonuses while the bigger a fleet gets and the more alliances in it the less effective its overall performance becomes.

I do feel for anyone who loses a ship too lag it happens in FW often but the player must take some responsibility by avoiding the oversized fleets.




Your post would have been acceptable pre-dominion.

Post-dominion your entire arguement is invalid.

Why? because dominion REDUCED the number of ships required to lag a node out, and actually somehow made the server so unstable that any lag-prediction charts applicable pre-dominion could now be thrown out of the window and lag since then became an ever-elusive evolving monster that as of recently with the latest expansion has come to include the unexplainable death of logged-off ships, ghosting, and duplication of ships up to TITANS being reported duplicated.

I am very sorry, but this thread is not relevant. Everyone complaining about lag post-dominion has had every right to do so and any opposition from arguements like the one you just stated have become overshadowed by the FACT that the lag ACTUALLY used to be less.

Rabid cat
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.06.19 22:38:00 - [27]
 

Why do some fanboys keep insisting that its not worth of it even try to fix the lag because people would just bring more ppl to fleets until it lags again while completely ignoring that 1500+ fights were enjoyable in before dominion.

Dominion botched it all.

Aegis Stormborn
Amarr
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Frater Adhuc Excessum
Posted - 2010.06.19 23:05:00 - [28]
 

CCP Dominion Trailer

"That's a lot of reds in local"

Large scale 0.0 warfare is the marketing tool of CCP. It has been sold to the players as well as potential new players. Unfortunately, the picture they paint is far from what's realistic on TQ.

Also the other valid points mentioned above.

Fix your **** CCP. EXCELLENCE and all that that you talked about at fanfest... ring a bell?

Flashh Gorden
Caldari
Exile Consortium
Nihilists Social Club
Posted - 2010.06.19 23:26:00 - [29]
 

Is it too easy then to pile more and more reinforcements into an existing battle?
Before the cyno field when you attacked a system all the aproach gates were bubbled and reinforcements found it hard to reach the battle. Quite often this would cause several smaller battles to occur.

Now it seems everone gets on the bat phone and can cyno in every man and his dog untill the node crashes.
Should there be a ship that acts as a mobile cyno jammer stopping the flood of killmail *****s?



Nardman
Amarr
FireStar Inc
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 07:36:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Aegis Stormborn
CCP Dominion Trailer

"That's a lot of reds in local"

Large scale 0.0 warfare is the marketing tool of CCP. It has been sold to the players as well as potential new players. Unfortunately, the picture they paint is far from what's realistic on TQ.

Also the other valid points mentioned above.

Fix your **** CCP. EXCELLENCE and all that that you talked about at fanfest... ring a bell?


It's funny. Dominion was supposed to bring tons more people to 0.0 and create huge fleet battles in null but instead it made it impossible for those things to happen. Dominion did exactly the opposite of what it was supposed to do giving people black screens or no grid when often even when there are less than 100 people in a system. Dominion ****ed 0.0.

We were promised this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgMoMNIfUZw&feature=PlayList&p=797A8A040F478AF2&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=5

And instead got this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxbuiUlU47I


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