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Yonaquel
Posted - 2010.06.13 19:15:00 - [1]
 

FIRST - I am loving it so far - jumped right into the skill training on day one of
new expansion - got all to 4 and Remote Sensing to 5 before 6/8. Went geeky spreadsheet on the materials and T1, T2,T3 products and interactions etc. The first colony was painfully difficult to construct - even having watched the tutorial several times I found it difficult to figure out the right sequences etc. BUT help channel helps as always. AND I LOVE that we can manage the processes w/o being in system.

SECOND: 6 colonies is not going to be enough - hopefully a new skill of Advanced Interplanetary Consolidation and beyond is being planned?

THIRD: We need to have a way to select which group of installations on a particular planet to look at - Have two groups on two of my planets and the 2nd one on the Lava planet is very small and VERY hard to find scrolling the planet around

FOURTH: Need more info on how upgrading links works; how to improve efficiencies of the industrial facilities etc. Perhaps more skills equivalent to Refining Efficiency - Mining upgrades. etc.

FINALLY - the planets are drop dead GORGEOUS. Thank you Developers!!!

Yona




Yonaquel
Posted - 2010.06.13 21:12:00 - [2]
 

It also would be nice if one could bring installations like extractors and industrial facilities on and off line like are able to do with ship modules. Then one could have a planetary installation scheme with multiple harvesting locations for differing materials and only run the ones you want at a particular time.

Dereth Renner
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.06.13 22:38:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Yonaquel
FIRST - I am loving it so far - jumped right into the skill training on day one of
new expansion - got all to 4 and Remote Sensing to 5 before 6/8. Went geeky spreadsheet on the materials and T1, T2,T3 products and interactions etc. The first colony was painfully difficult to construct - even having watched the tutorial several times I found it difficult to figure out the right sequences etc. BUT help channel helps as always. AND I LOVE that we can manage the processes w/o being in system.

SECOND: 6 colonies is not going to be enough - hopefully a new skill of Advanced Interplanetary Consolidation and beyond is being planned?


How is 6 not enough? I only have 5, as I'm still training for my last one, but I have pretty much every resource covered at least once, if not twice, with the exception of one. I'm not really generating a lot, but I work in hi-sec - it's to be expected. Plus, you've got 2 other characters you could create, it only takes a week or so to train up to be able to perform at a decent level with PI, and you don't have to train any of the scanning skills - just plunk your alt's extractors right down on top of your main extractors... Or join a corp and pool resources. Six is plenty, IMO.

Quote:

THIRD: We need to have a way to select which group of installations on a particular planet to look at - Have two groups on two of my planets and the 2nd one on the Lava planet is very small and VERY hard to find scrolling the planet around


Zoom out? Even at max zoom level I can easily locate all of my facilities, even if they're half way on the other side of the world. If all else fails, go to the scan view, pick the highest level resource available, run your slider all the way down to the bottom, and watch your planet turn pure white. Kind of hard to miss the black dots at that point.

Quote:

FOURTH: Need more info on how upgrading links works; how to improve efficiencies of the industrial facilities etc. Perhaps more skills equivalent to Refining Efficiency - Mining upgrades. etc.


I'll agree to the part about upgrading links - it wasn't covered at all in any of the video tutorials, nor was the fact that the longer the link is, the more CPU/PG it takes... But the good thing is - LINKS ARE FREE!!! No isk requirement on their part means that once you have placed your facilities, you're able to throw down link after link to see which is the most efficient route to take. As far as the upgrading the actual facilities, I'm hoping for this too, since it's clearly not in yet (if it is even ever going to be).

Quote:

FINALLY - the planets are drop dead GORGEOUS. Thank you Developers!!!


AGREE.

David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.06.14 01:07:00 - [4]
 

my opinion of PI is this:

not for players that have jobs, spouses/significant others, or children

Why?

u spend a great deal of time setting up links and routes for very little output.

defo not a thrilling experience (mining ores is actually very eventful compared to PI)

sadly pos, pos mods & pos fuel prices will go up because it takes forever to get enuff planet goo to build one.

Gnean Tyrova
Posted - 2010.06.14 01:44:00 - [5]
 

While a substantial amount of the PI looks great and works well, there is sadly not much variety in terms of production: refining any resource takes 3000 units, building any next tier resource takes 10 units of 2 refined commodities or lower commodity, and all production processes of that tier produce the same number of materials.

This is nothing like the rest of EVE where everything varies upon exactly what you are producing/refining/mining. Arkonor does not refine the same as veldspar, small iron charges do not cost the same as small antimatter charges, a skiff does not require the same number of resources as a jaguar to build.

Put simply, it seems like they put all the effort into eye-candy and not structure.

Dallenn
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.06.14 20:23:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Yonaquel
SECOND: 6 colonies is not going to be enough - hopefully a new skill of Advanced Interplanetary Consolidation and beyond is being planned?



You have the 3 characters per account, or you could just use the market for anything you need in your chain. PI is passive income, and the skills are very easy to learn on a new alt. Too many colonies would just mean too much passive income if you get a few extra accounts. 11 colonies on a single character might make sense but the Advanced consolidation skill should have demanding prerequisites. Like Survey 5 and Mass production 5 and Consolidation 5 or something like that...

I love PI, it is a very exciting and a rather smooth feature... I remember how Eve has been over the years and we are seeing a definite improvement here Smile The vanishing goods and routes etc are a high priority issue though and hope CCP gets them fixed in the next few weeks.

Things I love about PI:
+new aspect to Eve world
+adapts to your style - passive or active, etc - with xtractor cycles, storage vs factories etc
+endless tinkering and optimization for the most productive colony and industry chain
+new special location in space for ganking people and having fights at


Sanada Komatsu
Posted - 2010.06.22 00:40:00 - [7]
 

I'm liking the basic concept of PI and what can be built from it however, I'm seeing some issues.

1.) The selection of runtimes for the extractors is adequate for dabblers, not for serious producers. For that matter they're not even conducive to anyone who has a life outside the game. Moon mining relies on POS, which only have to be fueled every couple/few weeks and can be done without interrupting the process. Would a 7 day runtime truly be that much to ask?

2.) Currently we cannot make any changes to the extractors while they're running. Why not? Shouldn't we at least be able to make them stop so we can select a different runtime? Kinda ties into #1 in that people are having to "alarm clock" to do low level resource management.

3.) Storage capacities. Once again we're stuck with hobbyist tools trying to do a professional job. If you're not sure what I mean try calculating the volume of P1 material needed to create P4 material in a quantity sufficient for building a large tower. Now calculate how many Storage Facilities you'll need to house that. My idea of a reasonable solution?.. add a zero to the capacity of all PI structures. Too much, fine... make it skill based, make it a racial structure bonus, make it an upgrade, be creative, I don't care... but give us some reasonable storage for bigger jobs.

4.) Expedited transfers (ties into #3). Ever tried moving over 4000 M3 of material from a launchpad to a Storage Facility via Expedited Transfer? I have, works great except that I need to do that 3 times before starting my processing run. 17+ hour cooldown between transfers?.. why? I throw that much material into a Badger II (12000 M3) without any delay or forethought, take it out to the planet's Customs Office, load it all into the bay there with no difficulty, minor setback at the Launch Pad's capacity (see #3), transfer from the Pad to first storage, bring the rest down from the Customs Office,... and find it's going to be effectively another two days before I can start my production run due to cooldowns between the other two Expedited Transfers I need to do.

Ok, enough with the downsides. It's not what I'd call passive income (too much micro management involved) but the planets are gorgeous, the base mechanics of PI are workable, and the products now made solely from it are important enough to make it viable. I'm excited to see what the effects on the market and the game overall will be through the next 6 months or so.


Razar51
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:53:00 - [8]
 

-If you hate expidited transfer.... use the launchpad as your storage facility

-Not enough space to import all the p1 stuff u need? refine your stuff into p2, p3 stuff before importing it onto your p4 production planet

- 2.)i have 5 colonies in highsec, and it takes me 7-10 minutes to start all the extractors every 5 hours, and that gets really old really fast, more than 6 would be brutal!

-I dont have a problem finding my stuff, good suggestion above, turn the planet white

- 4.) that is what test server is for, experimenting so you know what everything is/does Very Happy

What I would like to see is an option to set all extractors to a specific extraction cycle. I run my extractors on the 5 hour cycle, would be nice to be able to select all the extractors at once and set them to the 5 hour cycle instead of setting them up individually, but thats the lazy man in me talkingRolling EyesCool

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2010.07.18 17:47:00 - [9]
 

Why the meaningless timer on moving goods between storage facilities? What purpose does it serve? Why is it so long? Is it simply a "PITA" feature to discourage people from using storage facilities? If so why not just take storage out completely?

Seems like a poorly thought out mechanic that should be removed or at least have it's timer reduced to no more than 2 minutes between transfers. That's plenty of time to let the databases do their thing.

Varis Idle
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:17:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen
Why the meaningless timer on moving goods between storage facilities? What purpose does it serve? Why is it so long? Is it simply a "PITA" feature to discourage people from using storage facilities? If so why not just take storage out completely?

Seems like a poorly thought out mechanic that should be removed or at least have it's timer reduced to no more than 2 minutes between transfers. That's plenty of time to let the databases do their thing.


The PITA is the price you pay on improper colony design. If your logistic chain is well laid out, the materials route to all the right places on their own, and you need no expedited transfers to rearrange your material stockpiles. It is there for a reason - it rewards colonization skill and the time spent in planning. Also, nobody would need to upgrade links if they could just do an expedited transfer every 2 minutes...

But there's an idea - drastically reduce the timers on storage facilities so there is an incentive to use them at least sometimes instead of launch pads (which ironically have more storage Rolling Eyes).

Esiel
Renegade Serenity
Posted - 2010.07.19 22:54:00 - [11]
 

One thing that bothers me on just a conceptual basis - if you have a spaceport your command center doesn't need to be connected to the chain in your PI. WTH I mean that provides your power and cpu and I have seen some people with the CC on the opposite side of the planet no where remotely near their chain.

PS then again I am also bothered by the lack of connections with POS's and support the dead horse.

MC187
Posted - 2010.07.20 11:20:00 - [12]
 

i don't like the clickfest of resetting the extractors. i have 2 toons running 9 planets with advanced command centers and it take a while do go thru and tell each extractor how long to run. i would love an extractor grouping option of some sort to allow us to scan for resources and select a run time for multiple extractors with a fraction of the clicks.


i have 7 planets set up just to produce enough PI related POS fuels to keep one large tower happy and i need to run everything on a 23 hour cycle to keep up and have some extra to sell to cover PI costs involved. with the fuel prices messed up right now, i pretty much have to, otherwise the tower would not be able to pay for itself with moon goo reactions/invention/production revenues and eventually drain wallets. right now, the thing is just barely in the green. hopefully, those fuels come down in price sooner rather than later.

storage is an issue. i'd like to see silos get double or even quadruple their current capacity. launch pads could use a boost too, i use them for a buffer i link my p2 processes to and i'm starting to have to juggle stuff around to make it work even after trying to eliminate overrun from the extractors and p1 processes. have the launchpad hold a lot more but still only launch 10k m3 at a time, like maybe a launch per hour or something.

command center fitting is an issue too. every one i have is using neaarly all of the powergrid and under 50% of the CPU. i guess the extra cpu is if you're doing a processor planet and just bringing in the raw stuff.

another thing i'd like to see, upgradeable structures beyond the links, even the command centers. instead of having to completely wipe your setup and rebuild after you level up command center upgrades, pay a fee, have a certain amount of downtime for everything on the planet say like 48 hours if you're going from advanced to elite. once the timer expires the cc is upgraded to the next level you can use.

Varis Idle
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.20 12:03:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: MC187
i have 7 planets set up just to produce enough PI related POS fuels to keep one large tower happy and i need to run everything on a 23 hour cycle to keep up and have some extra to sell to cover PI costs involved. with the fuel prices messed up right now, i pretty much have to, otherwise the tower would not be able to pay for itself with moon goo reactions/invention/production revenues and eventually drain wallets. right now, the thing is just barely in the green. hopefully, those fuels come down in price sooner rather than later.



No no, the prices have already sunk too low and PI is now hardly even worth it. If you want both CCP would need to boost PI production, storage and hauling considerably (decrease bulk of goods by 70%?). But then we need only half the people producing all the stuff and the rest can go back to mission running or w-holing or whatever they used to do before PI.

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2010.07.21 13:40:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Par''Gellen on 21/07/2010 13:42:01
Originally by: Varis Idle
The PITA is the price you pay on improper colony design. If your logistic chain is well laid out, the materials route to all the right places on their own, and you need no expedited transfers to rearrange your material stockpiles. It is there for a reason - it rewards colonization skill and the time spent in planning. Also, nobody would need to upgrade links if they could just do an expedited transfer every 2 minutes...

But there's an idea - drastically reduce the timers on storage facilities so there is an incentive to use them at least sometimes instead of launch pads (which ironically have more storage Rolling Eyes).

Interesting viewpoint. A bit narcissistic but interesting. My biggest problem isn't my layout. It is the fact that I can't plop down enough raw materials on my factory planets to keep them running for any meaningful length of time. I'm sure the devs didn't intend (at least I hope not because that would be the height of stupidity) to force the player to babysit their colonies all day long rather than get out there and blow each other to bits. This is Eve afterall. Twisted Evil
Mainly I just needed a way to store large quantities of imported goods that are to be processed into P4 components on a planet dedicated to this purpose. I actually figured a way around their rediculous transfer timers using multiple launchpads. It helped a bit but I still can't store as much imported goods as I really need to. Seems pretty nutty to me to create a storage facility and then make them virtually unusable for storage. Rolling Eyes Classic Eve "almost useful" design I guess... I wonder if the devs took a class on how to do that.

MonkeyBot 5000
Galactica Industrial Facilities
M E T H O D
Posted - 2010.07.22 08:17:00 - [15]
 

What I'd like to see is a corp hangar at the customs office and the ability to set up planets on behalf of a corp.

This especially makes sense with respect to POS fuel production. The corp could fund the infrastructure and assign the hauling duties to other members of the corp.

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2010.07.22 11:19:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: MonkeyBot 5000
What I'd like to see is a corp hangar at the customs office and the ability to set up planets on behalf of a corp.

This especially makes sense with respect to POS fuel production. The corp could fund the infrastructure and assign the hauling duties to other members of the corp.
This would be pure WIN!

Varis Idle
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.26 08:08:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen

Mainly I just needed a way to store large quantities of imported goods that are to be processed into P4 components on a planet dedicated to this purpose. I actually figured a way around their rediculous transfer timers using multiple launchpads. It helped a bit but I still can't store as much imported goods as I really need to. Seems pretty nutty to me to create a storage facility and then make them virtually unusable for storage. Rolling Eyes Classic Eve "almost useful" design I guess... I wonder if the devs took a class on how to do that.


I dunno if CCP figured people would be building factory planets... why not just produce where you make some of those goods? Wich level of products are you importing anyway - perhaps you should do the building in steps...?

Multiple launch pads help, and you can probably set up the colony so no expedited transfers are needed - unless you run out of CPU with the LP and then you need the storage units? But if you start with P2 you could always route the P3 into the storage before building the P4.

Varis Idle
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.31 15:00:00 - [18]
 

The two suck points in PI currently are 1) the meaningless, repetitive clickfest and 2) game balance in relation to other kinds of carebearing.

1) has received plenty of coverage, but 2) merits more analysis. The core of the problem is that CCP has implemented all the wrong kinds of bottlenecks in PI. Anybody with a few weeks or months on a character can produce plenty of products on a planet, provided he/she has the patience to keep clicking on the extractors. This means veteran players receive lots of competition from new players.

On the other hand, lowsec and nullsec operations introduce a huge timesink in the form of hauling and evading hostile pilots. Also, this is very hard to predict in advance, so the low/nullsec carebear doesn't know if installing a PI chain in a given constellation will net any decent isk/h in the future. If pirate activity happens to pick up in the constellation, you are pretty much screwed as comes to your business and it is time consuming (and even a tad expensive) to switch to a different constellation.

It seems that PI currently is an active income - your income gradually increases as you put more and more time and effort into it, and substantial work is required to cash in. It's best performed in hisec or in nullsec controlled by friendly parties. You could say it's just a problem with lowsec in general, but I think the risks are acceptable, you just have to make the rewards greater.

What can CCP do to fix PI?

A) Increase demand of products

A lot of adjustments can be made so money flows to the PI products market. In particular I'd like CCP to increase demand for P3 and P4 products, so it makes economic sense to actually build those and not just P2 or lower. (The current disparity in pricing might also be in part due to builder stupidity, or old stockpiles.)

But the basic measure would be to reduce extraction (and build) rates on planets - maybe some 50 to 70%, so one unit of planetary produce becomes more valuable, and PI will be more like a passive income - a slow trickle of isk which will net you a few dozen millions every now and then, not billions of isk with hours and hours of constant effort.

I think this would make hisec planets less attractive as well, because now high yield in extraction is more interesting in order to overcome the planetary bottleneck.

B) Introduce a scale of capability

Skills to extract faster, build faster etc. More expensive high-end (advanced, elite, t2, faction etc) command centers and CC fittings so more capital is required for serious PI setups. T3 transports could also be considered.

This would have the effect of making veteran players able to compete with new players, and also the planetary side would require more attention, not just the hauling side.

C) Reduce need for hauling

Cut bulk of P1 products by 60%, P2 by 40% and P3 by 20%.

This reduces the hauling time sink, making PI in lowsec more viable and generally focusing the feature into the planets and not the hauling part.

D) Adjust extractor cycles

Nerf the short cycles and boost the very long cycles. This means planets cannot be farmed, and there will actually be more shortage of good colonies.

For example, an extractor now harvests

1152 units in 5 minutes
1900 in 15 min
1358 in 30 min
753 in 60 min

This should be something like

400 units in 5 minutes
900 in 15 min
700 in 30 min
500 in 60 min




Pricecheck sama
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:01:00 - [19]
 

to anyone thinking 6 is too little.

one account = three characters

if you get 6 planets per character at lvl V that equates to 18 planets per account. Many players dual account and PI is passive.

thats is 36 planets. not enough? i would go crazy

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2010.08.05 18:51:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Varis Idle
I dunno if CCP figured people would be building factory planets... why not just produce where you make some of those goods? Wich level of products are you importing anyway - perhaps you should do the building in steps...?

Multiple launch pads help, and you can probably set up the colony so no expedited transfers are needed - unless you run out of CPU with the LP and then you need the storage units? But if you start with P2 you could always route the P3 into the storage before building the P4.
With elite command centers it's no problem to import P1 goods to a planet and output a P4 product. This is all fine and dandy until you try to do it in quantites that actually mean something isk-wise. This is where extra storage would be great but the transfer timers make storage facilities useless when talking in terms of the quantities needed to make it worthwhile. Currently I have a setup with three launchpads each feeding three P1 to P2 factories which then output through one of the launchpads to three P2 to P3 factories which then output through a launchpad again to the P4 factory. There is plenty of CPU and power to spare using this setup (but unfortunately not enough to run more than one P4 chain at a time and not enough for enough additional launchpads to make sense) which I use to extract and process whatever I'm sitting on (autotrophs usually). Here is my logic behind this setup:
  1. Frees up my other characters' planets to focus on extracting and processing P0 to P1 materials. When you don't have to use long resource hogging links for P2 or P3 output on a single planet you can run loads of extractors from an elite command center and usually three P0 to P1 factories are plenty to convert it to P1.


  2. Relatively low import/export cost of P1 products keeps my overhead down. I can export tons of P1 stuff for less or almost equal to the cost of exporting P2 and P3 stuff of the same quantity value. This again speaks to my point above about focusing command center resources on extracting rather than on rediculously long links for P2 or P3 single planet production which in the long run slows down production (a LOT on some planets!).


  3. Usually my P1 producing planets output faster than my P4 planet so there is no downtime of the P4 planet unless I swap to another P4 or life gets in the way of me babysitting the damn thing all the time. This is the main reason there needs to be a means of storing larger quantities without all the penalties that make it unusable.

I've looked into outputting P2 and P3 stuff from single planets but it's a less efficient process mainly due to the longer links and fewer extractors that kind of setup brings along with it. When I set up to extract I don't play around! Laughing


 

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