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Guilty Man
Minmatar
Guilty People
Posted - 2010.06.10 08:19:00 - [1]
 

Yes, I know it has been discussed zillion of times, but I want to understand why setting "any" price is better than "slotted" price?

It could be fixed price step at which you can set buy or sell order. Let's say the step is 1% rounded down so if you want to sell some stuff at ~30 mil, that means the price can be set at 30,000,000 or 29,800,000 or 30,300,000

If someone wants to compete with your 29,800,000 sell order, then he can either set 29,800,000 also (and enter the queue) or set order at 29,600,000.

Such change would make trading more comfortable (less clicks per trade session) and it could be possible to make nice UI improvement, when you don't need enter full price (like now 29,799,999.99), but simply hit down arrow which automatically suggest price of 29,600,000

Currently, similar behavior has trit market, because 0.01isk is a significant change there. I enjoy trading trit, but I would also like to see same behavior at other markets.

Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.06.10 08:44:00 - [2]
 

The thing is, with 0.01 isk cuts, it makes more money on larger items. When you have several billions to trade with, it gets hard to make money. Expensive items are thus better to work with, and cutting 0.01isk (instead of % based) makes more money.

That said, I much rather undercut by 0.01isk because regardless of who you buy from, the money will go to the lowest order.

Any higher undercutting just completly destroys the profits. So No I like to keep the 0.01isk cuts. There's a french guy where I trade that always undercuts by 1k. Example: 1,250,999.99 -> 1,250,000.52 or 259,999.99 -> 259,000.52

He's a ****ing moron.

Xeross155
Minmatar
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.10 08:54:00 - [3]
 

I agree with the person above me, removing the possibility to have 0.01 ISK wars will cause the profit to go down a lot.

I like it the way it is, only thing that I would like is to get rid of the lag I get when viewing market details, but I guess that's impossible.

Guilty Man
Minmatar
Guilty People
Posted - 2010.06.10 09:00:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Guilliman R

Any higher undercutting just completly destroys the profits. So No I like to keep the 0.01isk cuts.


So, don't undercut, just enter the queue at current price. The thing is: everyone wants to be first, it leads to constant order checking and undercutting. Now, the trading is just dumb clicking. You don't need to analyse and think - just click and undercut. The real trading is when you start thinking. Try trading trit at high volumes (10-15 bil/day) and you will see what I mean. Smart traders would start making more profits, dumb clickers would lose. It is all about Quality vs Quantity. Currently Quantity wins.

Wolfster
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.10 09:21:00 - [5]
 

As others stated before me - 0.01 ISK game is simply to maximize my profit per login session.

Sure I could raise the price by 10%, but 10 min later another guy will come and 0.01 ISK up it. As a result I lost 10% + taxes of my profit margin. YaY me.

Unlike lots of traders I do this to fund my PVP. So ROI is important to me.

As far as fixed steps go - why ?
People would simply lemming the price up by 1% until it would stop being profitable. Then crash, rinse and repeat ... Pretty much like today.

And ofc I want to be first. I dont want YOU to buy the item I want ME to buy it.
Try trading something besides trit - say Abbadons. See how that goes for you. When you raise price by 1% on 120 mil ship.

This is in its purest form free market. We who buy and sell define prices. Or should I say supply and demand dictate the price rise or fall.

And just like IRL trading of whatever commodity you can imagine - people will undercut each other. Some even trade at a loss just to kill competition. Its fundemental rule of trade and I dont see it change any time soon ...

Adapt or extinct the choice is, as allways, yours.

Xeross155
Minmatar
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.10 09:30:00 - [6]
 

With the "queue" system the queue would clog up for certain items, rendering selling those completely useless.

Guilty Man
Minmatar
Guilty People
Posted - 2010.06.10 10:50:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Guilty Man on 10/06/2010 10:55:36
Originally by: Wolfster

Try trading something besides trit - say Abbadons. See how that goes for you. When you raise price by 1% on 120 mil ship.



I traded Abbadons also and in certain situations I raised price by 1% or more (but mostly I _had_ to use 0.01 undercuts) and you know what? I had less profit with undercuts! Because "lifetime" of the order is much bigger with % change than with 0.01 undercut (in average) and the more time you "stay on top", the more you buy/sell. Small buy/sell margins result in bigger turnovers and huge margins result in rare transactions (-> less profit in general).

Just calculate the probability of the "SELL event" within 1 hour using undercut strategy and using % change strategy (assuming that you can don't change price). Yes, you lose profit in single transaction, but instead you gain more transactions and less clicks.

Alternate Poster
Posted - 2010.06.10 11:17:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Guilty Man
So, don't undercut, just enter the queue at current price.

Pinko!

Dani WH
Posted - 2010.06.10 11:36:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Guilliman R

Any higher undercutting just completly destroys the profits. So No I like to keep the 0.01isk cuts. There's a french guy where I trade that always undercuts by 1k. Example: 1,250,999.99 -> 1,250,000.52 or 259,999.99 -> 259,000.52

He's a ****ing moron.


sweet tears there Crying or Very sad

Regis Nex
Posted - 2010.06.10 12:20:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Regis Nex on 10/06/2010 12:26:04
Please kind sir, trading is not meant to be as comfy as mining, it is already mind numbing as it is.
We love 0.01 isking, its where the fun is + grieving other sellers/buyers into submission.
If you cannot overcome undercutting of a certain item, I advice to move to another.
That is why traders are always told to diversify.

Edit: Youll be amazed that some items are a magnet to decent traders+good profit, while others...to the "not so wise" ones.

Guilty Man
Minmatar
Guilty People
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:05:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Regis Nex

We love 0.01 isking, its where the fun is + grieving other sellers/buyers into submission.



0.01 isking is very tempting for macro abuse, just create 10 orders and flip every 30 seconds

would it be fun for you? or you would just move the price?

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Guilty Man
I want to understand why setting "any" price is better than "slotted" price?


It's a trade off. Having any price means more player freedom, giving finer control to the player to maximize his profits. Having slotted prices would simplify trading significantly.

Most traders would prefer the system to be left alone, as it allows us to make more isk, where a simpler system would double **** punch us with thinner margins and more competition.

Ask yourself this: with thousands of competing traders in Jita, are players really having enough difficulty using the market to justify removing their freedom to pick their own increments?



Khayos
Caldari
United Enterprise
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:46:00 - [13]
 

I don't see any problem is 0.01 ISK traders, the people that have the time and effort to spend that much time deserve higher rewards, your stuff will sell but it will take longer.

EG: Some days I can sit in front of my PC and 0.01 with the rest and make many many more trasactions in the day. Other days I am at work for 14 hours and can't touch my orders so they take much longer to sell or not at all but will sell after a few days. Stuff sells, just not as quick.


Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.10 16:37:00 - [14]
 

yeah, .01 is just sort of like the open outcry trading pit style...well not exactly but the same sort of concept applies .. if you're making a market in something you got to be there.

You can still place limit orders and hope the market moves through your price or try to be sneaky and split the bid ask spread, which will cause the market makers to tend to narrow the spread or buy up your inventory before they re-widen in to make their living. Electronic trading has changed that a little, true.. but the volume on the market has wait times more similar to things with wider spreads.

.01 trading (or .o3 or .06 etc) is far easier on human traders because you can quickly update your price with your mouse instead of shifting your body (feet up on the table?) to access the keyboard.

Also, I'm not sure that your plan would really accomplish your goal....if your goal is letting part timers in to the wholesale side of the bid/ask traders would still freeze people out but with tighter spreads...

maybe tighter spreads are your goal? Is it that if you can't get a piece of the pie you want to make the pie smaller?

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.06.10 17:54:00 - [15]
 

I am amazed that anyone would defend the 0.01 isk game. I just wrote a 2,500 word post about how horrible it is and lost it due to an Internet disconnect but trust me, I had very good arguments and reasons for it that I won't retype.

Suffice it to say, 0.01 isk game is for unemployed people and for obsessive compulsive people. Fix it please. 1 pct. of "trimmed average of market transactions" for the item in that region would work quite well for the order increment.

Either that, or pay full broker fee every time you change the order Twisted Evil.

Oh yea and for you 'free market' bla bla blah people . . . . if it really were, I could buy from any market order I wanted and I would never choose the 0.01 undercutter. So it isn't 'free.'

AUB

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.06.10 18:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
[. . .] or try to be sneaky and split the bid ask spread, which will cause the market makers to tend to narrow the spread or buy up your inventory before they re-widen in to make their living.


I love griefing 0.01 iskers this way. It's awesome. But you gotta do it incrementally to crash the price before they buy you out. And I love it when they buy up my whole inventory even if it is half the profit than I would have made at the full sell price. They're the ones who will have to move it.

AUB

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.06.10 18:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Aurum Bellator
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
[. . .] or try to be sneaky and split the bid ask spread, which will cause the market makers to tend to narrow the spread or buy up your inventory before they re-widen in to make their living.


I love griefing 0.01 iskers this way. It's awesome. But you gotta do it incrementally to crash the price before they buy you out. And I love it when they buy up my whole inventory even if it is half the profit than I would have made at the full sell price. They're the ones who will have to move it.

AUB


See, I'd miss that too. Yet another argument for leaving the .01 isk game alone. Market PVP is fine, L2P, etc.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2010.06.10 19:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Aurum Bellator
Either that, or pay full broker fee every time you change the order Twisted Evil.



I like something along these lines.

People can still play the 0.01 ISK game but if they are one of those who spams the damn things every 10 seconds it'll cost them dearly. They have to be more judicious on when to make price corrections which, frankly, makes market PvP even more skilled.

Any nub can lower by 0.01 ISK and just hope to bore you out of the market before you bore him out of the market.

Raimus Kallenden
Posted - 2010.06.10 23:18:00 - [19]
 

I should preface this by saying that I am an industrialist and most of my market experience consists of selling my produced goods.

.01 isk outbidding is essential to the function of eve's market system as we know it.

Yes, real life functions without this, but real life also has real differences between the way two different companies manufacture and distribute the same item. Eve does not. What is left?

Whoever gets there first.

It should be a measure of your skill as a trader that you can a) find markets where there isn't a lot of .01 isking being done and b) do it well and quickly when it is done.

Personally, I believe that some people have a prejudice against .01 isking and I try to avoid it where possible. I have read of folks that will avoid the order that's first in line and instead buy from an order that is .01 isk above because they find the practice disagreeable. However financially irresponsible it is, I will usually try to modify my orders by at least .2 isk.

Lo Shran
Posted - 2010.06.11 01:49:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Lo Shran on 11/06/2010 01:51:03
0.01 ISK trading is about 90% of what I do in Eve. I get really annoyed at traders that increase or lower prices at anything but 0.01. Removing it makes absolutely zero sense. Replacing it with a percent increase is silly as it would only artificially increase the rate at which prices increase and decrease.

Besides all I would do in that case is kill the order and make a new one at 0.01 ISK higher or lower. In this case I would be annoyed because you just added way more clicks to my process, but guess what I'm still going to do it.


Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.06.11 04:03:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Umega on 11/06/2010 04:05:41
The market and economy is the foundation of the game, hands down. It is CCPs bread n butter and I don't see why they should impose trade regulations on their free market economy.

What this usual boils down is 'I don't have as much time as player A or B that 0.01 isk more frequently. So to make it fair, implement a system that means I can make just as much while spending less time to their greater than time'.

No.

That's like telling a pilot that spent an hour hunting his/her kills are worth double to a pilot that spent twice as long once downtime hits. Doesn't sound logical, does it? Altho it is the same principle.

This method is like locking acc gates used in DED/exploration/mission sites.. even tho you can scan it down, someone else got there first and once used the gate, it became locked to others outside of corp/alliance. That doesn't sound really cool, does it?

If people got more time than you for whatever reason, oh well. Can be bent n jealous, make snide comments to vent.. or you could devote your time and energy to better things like moving the **** on, or formulating your own strategy to make it 'even' in your mind.

Why have CCP hold ones hand to fix a problem like dealing with 0.01 iskers that aggriavate you when there are plenty of tactics you can do on your own to make the world 'right', already in place?

The You in this post not really directed towards you OP, to jus' clarify. Directed towards anyone that has serious issues with the 0.01 isk game and can't handle it on their own.

EDIT: Attempts to fix my terrible grammar.

Marshiro
Posted - 2010.06.11 04:58:00 - [22]
 

Without 0.01, there would hardly be day trading arbitrage traders, only industrialists placing their orders and adjusting them relatively slowly.

Well, I guess it'd mean jita would be less of a mess, but, please think of the traders. Sad

Razz

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.11 05:48:00 - [23]
 

Gee I started an essay on the theory of speculators and their role in market liquidity but their are people looking for tenure at major economics schools working on that sort of paper.

Long and short is, if you drive people away from watching the market every 5 minutes , with less eyes, there will be slower reaction in people arbitraging out differenced between hub prices, less people comfotable with the market in an item to see prices slipping and to buy the dozen units to stabilize it knowing that they've seen the cycle over and over before.

Fewer people buyign and selling for a profit gives more power to one well financed individual to completely control an item.


Guilty Man
Minmatar
Guilty People
Posted - 2010.06.11 08:23:00 - [24]
 

The objective of .01 isk gamer is not to change his order price, but to bring his order on top. You cannot play such games on low priced goods. That means, the market mechanics is used on something that is not supposed to. Actually, if devs would mean it by design then the should be a button "bring my order on top" thus allowing 0.00 isk games (queue games). Since, there is no such button then I call it exploit.

Khatred
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs
Posted - 2010.06.11 12:39:00 - [25]
 

The stupid thing about 0.01 isk game is that is has nothing to do with the omg so praised eve so real economy but with luck. If A and B keep undercutting each other every 5 minutes or if they have multiple orders for the same item and under cut each other every 30 seconds, they still have absolutely no idea when C, the buyer, will actually buy something. So basically undercutting in eve by 0.01 or very low amounts is about hoping to be on top when the sale happens. It's like opening a shop in a mall where there 49 other identical stores as yours and hoping that the customer draws the ticket to enter yours.


Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Tyrans d'0r
Posted - 2010.06.11 14:49:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Darthion Illys on 11/06/2010 14:50:28

The problem isn't the 0.01 isk modifications. If anything, we should be able to have 0.001 isk modifications, in order to make products such as tritanium being more accessible.

The real issue is that the one with the lowest price always get their items sold, regardless of which order they purchase from.

Combine that with a very short cooldown period in between order modifications, and you get the currently annoying-as-hell method of station "trading" in Eve.

Increase the duration between modifying orders, and remove the current function where items are automatically purchased from the cheapest sell order.

Adding a "modification fee" probably wouldn't hurt either.

Josephina Marco
Posted - 2010.06.11 15:16:00 - [27]
 

On one hand, the removing of 0.01 ISK bid, will clean up the trading by removing the 0.01 ISK drones. On the other hand, the 0.01 ISK drones are so eaaasy to manipulate, that will take some fun from the trading game.
I never used the 0.01 ISK game and i will never use (except maybe for resources where 0.01 ISK is a big influence, like for some PI materials that have the price of 2 ISK). I undercut orders by as much as 5 mil., when the price at buy orders was around 40 mil. But the sell orders where at 60 mil. For that product i waited 2 days for a buy order to fill, undercutting by 1, 10, 100, and 1000k. No luck. Undercutting with 5 mil. in both ways i was able to fill 4 buy orders and 4 sell orders, in 2 days. This is 40 mil. profit. So i can't understand how some people can say that by no using 0.01 ISK wars, you get lower profits, because i see it 40 mil. ISK > 0 ISK.

Veneth
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:12:00 - [28]
 

From a sellers stand point I don't want the .01 to go away because as most people know, in jita it doesn't matter what the price is, as long as you lowest yours is going to sell, so price dropping more than .01 is just, well dumb.

Instead a few fixes would alevate some of the problem, first for buy orders a limit of say 2 buy orders per region per item but only allow one of each range (for example, a region wide cheap buy order n a closer range high order). And 1 sell order per region per item. Would solve the problem of. People circumventing to adjustment cooldown. (Its been a while if you can't have multi orders I apologize)

N second, an incrimental cooldown timer, first time you adjust your order it gives that normal 5 minute timer, than you can adjust again, but if you do it again in say 15 minutes, the next cooldown would be 10 minutes before you can adjust again, and so on.

Raimus Kallenden
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Khatred
The stupid thing about 0.01 isk game is that is has nothing to do with the omg so praised eve so real economy but with luck.


No one is saying that the .01 isk game is the most ideal system. However, it is the only one we have, and to date no one has suggested or implemented a better one.

The point here is even if there are two players undercutting each other every 5 minutes, eventually they'll both buy/sell out their order and leave satisfied. The system works, it just doesn't work well.

Calling it stupid is juvenile. Suggest something better.

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:22:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Aurum Bellator on 11/06/2010 17:33:39
Originally by: Raimus Kallenden
I have read of folks that will avoid the order that's first in line and instead buy from an order that is .01 isk above because they find the practice disagreeable.

As I recently found out, and you should take note, no matter what order you try to purchase from, it ALWAYS buys from the lowest priced sell order, only you pay the price of the order you tried to buy from. Yeah so basically the lowest sell order in the station gets the sale no matter what, there is no way to avoid it.
Originally by: Lo Shran
Besides all I would do in that case is kill the order and make a new one at 0.01 ISK higher or lower. In this case I would be annoyed because you just added way more clicks to my process, but guess what I'm still going to do it.


Obviously someone who wants to chime in and who has never done any serious trading, ever. If you cancel your sell order and make a new one at 0.01 isk higher or lower, guess what? You pay the entire broker's fee all over again. Yeaaaa, that can kinda add up to a lot. But hey, it's your isk.
Originally by: Marshiro

Without 0.01, there would hardly be day trading arbitrage traders, only industrialists placing their orders and adjusting them relatively slowly.

Well, I guess it'd mean jita would be less of a mess, but, please think of the traders.


There are MANY other ways to trade than spamming 0.01 isk adjustments to your sell order. In fact, it isn't 'trading' at all. Think of it this way. If someone has a sell order of 1,000,000 isk for 500x 10mn Afterburner IIs, which he purchased or produced for whatever the going rate is, and you have 25 of the same module type that you acquire and want to sell; why should you be able to run to the front of the line and essentially sell your product for the exact same money?

The better answer is, unless you are willing to sell your 25 10mn ABIIs for at least a significant amount less, you should get behind the earlier sell order and wait until his is cleared out.

Stated another way: if you REALLY have to move those 10mn ABIIs then you should have to make some small amount of sacrifice to cut the line and get in below the orders that are already there. A one percent sacrifice on the sale price is hardly that much to ask if you want to slide in ahead of the last guy.

Originally by: Khatred

The stupid thing about 0.01 isk game is that is has nothing to do with the omg so praised eve so real economy but with luck. If A and B keep undercutting each other every 5 minutes or if they have multiple orders for the same item and under cut each other every 30 seconds, they still have absolutely no idea when C, the buyer, will actually buy something. So basically undercutting in eve by 0.01 or very low amounts is about hoping to be on top when the sale happens. It's like opening a shop in a mall where there 49 other identical stores as yours and hoping that the customer draws the ticket to enter yours.


This is why I grief 0.01 iskers whenever they become a real obstacle. I start adjusting my price lower in substantial increments and usually get bought out at some point. Which is fine. But the whole 0.01 isk game is the stupidest part of trading, and probably the MOST unrealistic.

AUB


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