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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.06.09 19:54:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Dani WH
command center should be connected to... anything?

Nope. In fact, you want to put your CC as far away from anything as possible and not link it to anything.
Quote:
Another question, the spaceport is necessary? Since CC seems to do the same function Rolling Eyes

The CC can only launch 500 m^3 at a time and it costs 50% more compared to a spaceport.
CC launches suck. Use spaceports and customs as much as possible instead.

Nuadi
Posted - 2010.06.09 20:07:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Nuadi on 09/06/2010 20:11:36
Originally by: Reyna Neens
Originally by: Nuadi

Third: Temperate planet mining facility. Designed from the ground up to be as efficient as possible. No dead ends, and I even found a way to include the CC. Razz

Could you explain a little bit about your layout and your routes as I don't quite understand all the symbols yet? The north branch appears to have 3 extractors feeding two basic processors feeding one advanced processor. I assume it goes to the command center for storage. The east branch does the same thing. The advanced processor between the command center and space port converts it to a P2 product. I can't tell what the southern branch could be doing with only one extractor, one basic, and one advanced.


Sure. I will start off by saying nothing goes to storage until it's been completely processed.

That said, north branch:
The upper-most extractor leads into the first basic processor (BP). The other two extractors lead into the second BP. The two BPs lead into the Advanced Processor (AP), and then on to the Launch Pad (LP). I actually have too many extractors on the north end, so going to snip one soon... need to do m3/hr analysis.

While explaining this, I realized that the second BP in this branch also feeds into the AP between the CC and LP. Of course... somehow that route wasn't established, but it is now.

East branch:
Farthest extractor goes to first BP. Next two extractors go to second BP. The two BPs lead into the AP at the Y-junction, and then on to LP. The second BP also leads into the AP on the south branch.

The first BP also leads into the AP between the CC and LP.

South branch:
Lone extractor goes to BP which goes to AP and then on to LP.

The "heaviest" link is on the east branch at 18.9% between the two BPs running at 23 hr for all extractors. I'm going to push them all to 5 hours to see how the links hold up. CC is sitting at 94% powergrid, and is of the improved flavor. The CC is not actually used other than a node in the link graph.

Bushgallam
Posted - 2010.06.09 20:52:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Bushgallam on 09/06/2010 20:51:54
Originally by: Akita T

In fact, you want to put your CC as far away from anything as possible and not link it to anything.


I see no reason why the position of your CC relative to the rest of your installation matters, except for a somewhat naive way to try to obfuscate your setup/links of your installation...
On the contrary, you'll loose a lot of time yourself spinning the planet trying to find your own actual installation when you want to manage it...

Reyna Neens
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:04:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Nuadi
Edited by: Nuadi on 09/06/2010 20:11:36
...

I guess what I meant is that top half seems to produce a P2 product and I assume the processors are always busy producing. However, with only one extractor, one basic processor, and one advanced processor, what are you making because, as far as I know, it take 2 P1 materials to make a P2.

Also, are you sure you're saving resources on links by putting processors in the middle of the line because I don't see anyone else doing this (although it is interesting)?

Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) putting a processor in the middle a link making two medium-sized links or putting a processor at the end of a link creating a long link and a very short one? I would guess it doesn't matter unless you end up ugrading a link in which case the second option would be better having to upgrade a very short link.

Dani WH
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:09:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Bushgallam

On the contrary, you'll loose a lot of time yourself spinning the planet trying to find your own actual installation when you want to manage it...


you can Scan, and look for white zones (where you most likely have placed your stuff)

but yes PI is a huge waste of time. I can't believe im actually spending so much time and isk for the laughable revenues.

Nuadi
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:31:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Reyna Neens
Originally by: Nuadi
Edited by: Nuadi on 09/06/2010 20:11:36
...

I guess what I meant is that top half seems to produce a P2 product and I assume the processors are always busy producing. However, with only one extractor, one basic processor, and one advanced processor, what are you making because, as far as I know, it take 2 P1 materials to make a P2.


Ah, okay. First, my processors, both basic and advanced, are not constantly producing. They are in fact waiting quite some time for the extractors or feeder processors to finish cycles.

The point of this planet was to experiment the string layout. It is quite tedius, but as you can see I can pull three P0, P1, and P2 products... very very slowly. Razz

The south branch has two APs sitting on it. Only one resource feeds into the first AP from the south branch. The remaining 3 resources come from the North and East branches.

They may all be in line with each other, but the routes overlap one another.

Originally by: Reyna Neens
Also, are you sure you're saving resources on links by putting processors in the middle of the line because I don't see anyone else doing this (although it is interesting)?


Yes, and I've tested this. I realized that distance from the CC to a facility does not affect the cost in MW or tf. Therefore, I could place facilities in a scatter formation, or in line - it would cost the same.

However, the links between a scatter costed far more to establish than a line.

So, on the Temperate planet, I placed an extractor, created a link to the LP, placed a BP directly on that line, removed the long link, placed two smaller links, and the over all change in MW and tf was minimal. +1 or +2 if I remember correctly, and I chalk that up to rounding.

Compare that to a link graph with a dead end on it. You're paying, say, 100 MW to link extractor to LP. You then pay another 100 MW to link to a dead ended processor. You just paid 200 MW to route resources.

Place the processor between the extractor and the LP, and you end up paying about 101 MW, saving you 90 MW.

Originally by: Reyna Neens
Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) putting a processor in the middle a link making two medium-sized links or putting a processor at the end of a link creating a long link and a very short one? I would guess it doesn't matter unless you end up ugrading a link in which case the second option would be better having to upgrade a very short link.


There is an advantage. The load on the links is FAR less, which enables you to support faster cycle times without having to upgrade the links.

Suppose you have an Extractor > BP > LP setup. There are two links. The cost to send resources is 5% per link, just for example.

If you send resources to LP before BP, you spend 5% * 3. The link between the BP and LP is then at 10%, and that's before you route the BP output into the LP.

Multiply this effect by multiple extractors and/or multiple BPs, and you will have to upgrade links very quickly.

If you instead route to the BP first, and then BP to LP, then you spend only 5% for the fist link, and then even less for the second link since the processor output is a lower m^3/hr. So you save something in the neighborhood of 10% load on your link. Scale up from there, and you won't have to upgrade many of your links.

Now, I realize that this doesn't offer the storage buffer that many people enjoy. Therefore, either (a) do the m3/hr analysis so that you don't overload your processor or (b) place a storage unit to act as a buffer between the extractor and processor, or beyond.

Good lord... there's a character limit and I've nearly hit it. I hope I haven't talked your eyes out. I also just realized I put too much thought into this. I love this game. Wink

95TSiAWD
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:32:00 - [37]
 

Ok....

1) Why does everyone have everything spread SO far appart if links take power?

2) I thought it didnt matter where the CC was placed on the planet?

3) Are you guys really saving powergrid by linking extractors to extractors?

4) How are you guys producing p2-p3 items? Are you taking 2 planets producing 1 of each mineral, then hauling them to a separate planet that only processes these items into a p2 or p3?


If this game couldn't get any more tedious.....it just did. *face palm* /ccpfail

Saraphos
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:43:00 - [38]
 


1) Why does everyone have everything spread SO far appart if links take power?
Shrug, you shouldn't. Only exception is probably Gas planets or if you really really want to reach optimal hotspots and that's only if you are doing P2/P3 production on planet.
2) I thought it didnt matter where the CC was placed on the planet?
It doesn't.
3) Are you guys really saving powergrid by linking extractors to extractors?
Yes, however there is a practical limit to this. If you have a high enough extraction rate (on a 5 hour cycle), you can only link 2-3 max per non upgraded link. I've only run into one standard link having problems with a 23 hour cycle, but then again its 5 extractors pulling something silly like 2400 NonCS per 30, and even then setting your routed QTY down just a tad on the final extractor is enough to force it through.

4) How are you guys producing p2-p3 items? Are you taking 2 planets producing 1 of each mineral, then hauling them to a separate planet that only processes these items into a p2 or p3?
Personal choice. Some people are doing only P1 production per planet, some are doing the more optimal P2 extraction/processing per planet and some are doing P3 on the planets which allow. All personal preference. Me, I'm doing one P2 product per planet, then shipping to a barren production planet for final assembly into p3/p4.

Gumdrop
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:46:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Gumdrop on 09/06/2010 21:48:18
Ive got 10 planets with 8 of those mining the 3 things that come from a single planet only. 16 extractors supply 1.2 processors an hour I built 2 per planet thou so one only has to work every 5 hours. Each with an adv so every weekend I just xfer half of one planets suppy to its sister planet and half of that back to the original. 1 robotics plasma planet cause they look cool! And a storm planet to turn 4 planets worth of silicate glass into camera drones.

Its 588 clicks per day to do my 1 day cycles on all my extractors takes me about 25 mins to do it all. Only have to visit custom offices on the weekends minus the robotics planet which prob would take more than a year to fill up. Lets see how long I can go before I burnout :)

Oh ya and also I only went with small planets and my colonies are just all stacked right on top of each other in a tiny blob over the hottest spot I can find, 21 installations per colonly XD


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:51:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Bushgallam
Originally by: Akita T
In fact, you want to put your CC as far away from anything as possible and not link it to anything.

I see no reason why the position of your CC relative to the rest of your installation matters

Out of pure spite for its uselessness Laughing

Gumdrop
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:53:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Gumdrop on 09/06/2010 21:53:44
Edited by: Gumdrop on 09/06/2010 21:53:15
Originally by: Bushgallam
Edited by: Bushgallam on 09/06/2010 20:51:54
Originally by: Akita T

In fact, you want to put your CC as far away from anything as possible and not link it to anything.


I see no reason why the position of your CC relative to the rest of your installation matters, except for a somewhat naive way to try to obfuscate your setup/links of your installation...
On the contrary, you'll loose a lot of time yourself spinning the planet trying to find your own actual installation when you want to manage it...


Yea just put your CC right next to were you plan to build your spaceport which should be the heart of your colony. That way you never have to spin and maybe link it to your SP for fun if you have left over PG.

electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:03:00 - [42]
 

My construction block building setup

My nanite setup

My "dead fish" oxygen setup

My spaceport is usually my hub, as it holds the most stuff. in the last one I wondered if I could make a design in the setup while still being efficient. I was able to squeeze it in, at 99.84% power-grid.

Larinioides cornutus
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:04:00 - [43]
 


Reyna Neens
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:10:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Nuadi
Compare that to a link graph with a dead end on it. You're paying, say, 100 MW to link extractor to LP. You then pay another 100 MW to link to a dead ended processor. You just paid 200 MW to route resources.

Place the processor between the extractor and the LP, and you end up paying about 101 MW, saving you 90 MW.


Really? How are they paying the same MW for a link from Processor to LP as the link from extractor to LP? The processor and LP should be right next to each other, so wouldn't it be like 11 MW?

E-----BP-----BP-----LP
is slightly better than
E-BP-BP-------------LP
is much better than
E---------------LP<BP,BP
?

I'd test it out myself, but I didn't do my homework training Adv. Command Center to L4, so I need to wait until the weekend.

Necronous
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:43:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Necronous on 09/06/2010 22:44:32
Lava - Smartfab
Ocean - Vaccines
Barren - Sterile Conduits

Nuadi
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:49:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Nuadi on 09/06/2010 22:50:55
Originally by: Reyna Neens
Originally by: Nuadi
Compare that to a link graph with a dead end on it. You're paying, say, 100 MW to link extractor to LP. You then pay another 100 MW to link to a dead ended processor. You just paid 200 MW to route resources.

Place the processor between the extractor and the LP, and you end up paying about 101 MW, saving you 90 MW.


Really? How are they paying the same MW for a link from Processor to LP as the link from extractor to LP? The processor and LP should be right next to each other, so wouldn't it be like 11 MW?

E-----BP-----BP-----LP
is slightly better than
E-BP-BP-------------LP
is much better than
E---------------LP<BP,BP
?

I'd test it out myself, but I didn't do my homework training Adv. Command Center to L4, so I need to wait until the weekend.


That was the case I was presenting. In your case, you still save.

You don't need an Advanced CC to see it. I have a Basic Oceanic CC on Girani-Fa XI. I setup the following network. S=Storage.

E
|
|
|
|
|
S-C
|
B

Total MW was 2357 MW, and CPU was 982 tf. I then decommissioned the BP, and moved it into this configuration.

E
|
|
B
|
|
S-C

Total MW was 2353 MW, and CPU was 976 tf.

There is a savings of 4 MW and 6 tf. Not much, but it's there. Scale the network up, and the savings add up.

Gumdrop
Posted - 2010.06.09 23:28:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Gumdrop on 09/06/2010 23:29:30
Edited by: Gumdrop on 09/06/2010 23:29:06
Edited by: Gumdrop on 09/06/2010 23:28:42
Originally by: Reyna Neens
Originally by: Nuadi
Compare that to a link graph with a dead end on it. You're paying, say, 100 MW to link extractor to LP. You then pay another 100 MW to link to a dead ended processor. You just paid 200 MW to route resources.

Place the processor between the extractor and the LP, and you end up paying about 101 MW, saving you 90 MW.


Really? How are they paying the same MW for a link from Processor to LP as the link from extractor to LP? The processor and LP should be right next to each other, so wouldn't it be like 11 MW?

E-----BP-----BP-----LP
is slightly better than
E-BP-BP-------------LP
is much better than
E---------------LP<BP,BP
?

I'd test it out myself, but I didn't do my homework training Adv. Command Center to L4, so I need to wait until the weekend.


Um why is there even space between the BP and the SP, all the processors should be right next your spaceport with extractors linked to the spaceport so it acts as a storage for everything like this:


BP AP
EEE-------SP-------EEE
BP


Your Stuff should be stacked so close that links are only 20-30 power with the few long links being maybe 200-300.



Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.10 01:00:00 - [48]
 

Here is the setup I use on a 0.0 Storm Planet. In conjunction with a similar setup on a Temperate, I can generate a L4 product every 4 hours.

The big trick is using 2 spaceports as buffers. 2x the capacity for the same PG as a storage unit, and the extra CPU cost is irrelevant.

Awlton Stueen
Posted - 2010.06.10 01:15:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Here is the setup I use on a 0.0 Storm Planet. In conjunction with a similar setup on a Temperate, I can generate a L4 product every 4 hours.

The big trick is using 2 spaceports as buffers. 2x the capacity for the same PG as a storage unit, and the extra CPU cost is irrelevant.


Nice layout, thanks for the explanations.

Julienne Poirier
Gallente
Nonya Endeavours
Posted - 2010.06.10 01:33:00 - [50]
 


Brock Nelson
Posted - 2010.06.10 02:06:00 - [51]
 

Most of you have your extractors bunched up together in one spot. Does that drain the resources faster? Is it better to have 1 extractor at each hot spot?

Larinioides cornutus
Posted - 2010.06.10 02:32:00 - [52]
 

I increased my skill...
Some more cryptic 99.87% layout that's not very well aligned
Joint project with my other character I doublt anyone would fully understand what I drew...

The Huffarunier
Gallente
The Real OC
Posted - 2010.06.10 04:17:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Larinioides cornutus
I increased my skill...
Some more cryptic 99.87% layout that's not very well aligned
Joint project with my other character I doublt anyone would fully understand what I drew...


Looks to be to be either the checker flag stand at the races, an LSO on an AC or perhaps a flag officer on the deck of an AC. If not that then I go with a normal AC marshaller. If not any of those I give up.


MinerRif
Amarr
ExtremeNastyTossers
Posted - 2010.06.10 08:37:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Brock Nelson
Most of you have your extractors bunched up together in one spot. Does that drain the resources faster? Is it better to have 1 extractor at each hot spot?


im interested in these as well tnx

John Cant
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.10 09:05:00 - [55]
 

Not optimal layouts but I tend to chain 2E to 1bf via a shared central storage point, then route the output from that to the AF and from there to the LP. From each hotspot I'll stick down bultiple groups of extractors and bf's based on that formula, with the links kept as short as possible.

E-e-e-e-s-bf-bf-lp-af-bf-bf...etc... For a tier 2 prod. Setup.

I've also created a single central chain layout with storage in the middle and as many extrCtors etc centralised with the storage. Then two way links out and back from storage to factories, then route the processed resources down to the next factories in the chain and so on. Needed a link upgrade in the middle as there was a huge amount of traffic, but left plenty of scope to slot in a high tech f if needed.

Will have to post pics later. I originally thought on sisi that it had to work like a flowchart with e-s-f-s-af etc, so that gave me costly but simple layouts. Glad I worked out some better layouts :).

Also, I've colonies set up to output specific end products purely on what I drop onto the lp. On my barren world, if I drop conser electronics on the lp them it automatically routes and make robotics. If I drop CE's and condensates, it'll make organic mortar applicators....

JC.

Pekelnikus
Applied Creations
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2010.06.10 10:04:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Hyperforce99
Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 09/06/2010 19:50:09
I first had a different layout where every extractor fed directly into a processor, feeding into an advanced processor till eventually they hit a silo.

However after watching the eve-university videos on PI I redid my layout to be focussed around a central hub (the launch platform) which collects resources and distributes it along the extractors. I am very happy with this setup.

Ocean Planet


Storm Planet

Lava Planet
(1 processor off to the side.)

I need to replace the CC's with elite CC's once those are available as I want to create P4 products, i can't create those with the advanced CC.


just a quick q here... how did you get your links to be so long coz mine are nowhere close to that lenght and i'm runnin at like 99% power usage? am i missing a skill or something? I'm using the advanced CC as i dont have the skill for elite yet.

thanks for answers

Neo Gabriel
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2010.06.10 11:42:00 - [57]
 

The people laying out stuff nazca line style are doing it wrong because it wastes pg on the links.

The only and most effective way of doing PI is to extract and process raw into p1 in the original planet for pickup for further manufacture in a highsec system with only factories installed ( is it true highsec factories produce at 2x the number?) because its safer to load Customs in a highsec system and ore rates there don't matter for production.

You can place your CC anywhere you want, but I recommend you place it in a far off resource node for when you choose to mine something else.

But like what others have already said, you want to place all your extractors, p1 BIF, and storage/spaceport in a hexagonal grid over the hotspot, in a way as to never having to upgrade your links.

extractor -> storage/spaceport -> BIF

So when you have the setup ready it should look something like a 4x5 blocky hex grid.

Mine only the most abundant ore from the planet, from the most abundant planet nearby. This way you maximize extraction rates. Single source only.

Also make sure you stock up on dirt cheap P1 and p2 items and extract only the things you cant purchase from NPCs and/or are the most abundant in your area.

I have wasted dozens of millions setting up colonies and buying hundreds of thousands of NPC available sources like Oxygen and water. Why? It frees up my 9 colonies to farm "unobtainable" ores and p1, without having to waste them on gas giants.

I will be buying oxydized whatever (from reactive gas fro gas giants) from the market. This is a bottleneck. So is silicon from lava (but atm npcs buy orders and sell orders sort of mess it up).

And finally, come more into lowsec. Yesterday a buddy caught a viator at 0 on a planet when he warped in a comet by accident and got 4 free advanced CCs. I can't wait to start popping viators full of goodies at customs with my arazu, the most vulnerable point of it all where you have to drop your cloak to load up for those precious few seconds (assuming you do the launch uncloaked from a safe).

Or you could do the Sebo Hic at perma gatecamps thing.

Kensei Takezo
Caldari
Hokuten Knights
Posted - 2010.06.10 13:56:00 - [58]
 

tinkered with this for like 2 hours. my CC skill is only lvl 3 so my max PG is 15000.

this setup here is 100% PG and 96% CPU. i tried to make the links as short as possible to reduce PG. The result is as follow:

SweatShop

this setup is only used for P2-P4 processing, P1 and extraction are done on other planets. this setup has 3 P4 processors, each with its own line of P3 and P2 processors. i would also like to note that no link upgrades were used and ALL the links connected directly to the space port sports a usage of above 90%.

i love this minmaxing PI ;D

Robau
Minmatar
Dark Providence
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:05:00 - [59]
 


Kensei Takezo
Caldari
Hokuten Knights
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Robau
My Set-Up at moment


looks pretty but thats a lot of resource waste on the links. you could just transit them through other buildings


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