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RAW23
Posted - 2010.06.12 18:11:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23
Will this be the case even if you issue shares (a possibility alluded to in one of your earlier posts in this thread)? I.e. any share issue will be of non-voting shares?

That's a question best saved for future discussion should we go down that route, it has no bearing on the current situation.



Fair 'nuff. I was just wondering if "never, ever" was meant to categorically shut down the possibility in that situation too.

SetrakDark
DarkCorp Citizens Holdings
DarkCorp Citizens
Posted - 2010.06.12 18:20:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: SetrakDark
2) To cut through their bull**** and obfuscation for casual players/readers in an attempt to limit the scope of their next implosion.

I'd be interested in having further constructive dialogue with you. Your posts used to be very upbeat and engaging; until something very quickly caused that to change in the last thread - and I can't put my finger on what it was.


Because it doesn't matter anymore.

The original dilemma was to stay open or liquidate. Despite liquidation seeming to be the best solution, you chose to stay open. Fine, admittedly many outcomes were possible at that point.

Then we had the resulting issue of those who wanted out vs those who wanted to stay. A perfect solution of issuing non-voting trade-able shares was lobbied by multiple people. This solution had no drawbacks except hard work and a commitment to long-term full liquidity, which EBank promised profusely anyway. This option was not taken.

Finally, there was the hope of EBank proving us wrong and succeeding their way. I was willing to give that last benefit of the doubt, and even lobbied for some breathing room on these forums and for people to even help by handling non-sensitive workload.

Unfortunately, you guys have continued to doddle along showing no real progress except in more make-believe bank structuring and flashy yet contentless presentation. Furthermore, the enormous destruction of value that we insisted was the likely result of your policies has come to pass, and faster than expected.

So what's the point in continuing to engage constructively? It's over. Admittedly you guys could screw up the final transition to solvency, but I would not partake in that upcoming white-washed farce under any circumstances. Therefore, all that's left to do is tell the story how it really happened and try to limit the number of future victims.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.06.12 18:32:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Varo Jan
Fact is, you're not a functioning bank any more.

Correct. So we adapt.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.06.12 22:42:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Varo Jan
Fact is, you're not a functioning bank any more.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Correct. So we adapt stagnate.
Fixed that to reflect the past year.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2010.06.12 23:05:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Varo Jan
Fact is, you're not a functioning bank any more.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Correct. So we adapt stagnate.
Fixed that to reflect the past year.



Shar - just because you, personally, do not see movement doesnt mean there isnt a current under the water.

Varo Jan - I agree EBANK is not behaving like a bank, its not and its not going to for some time. What I do not understand is why people continue to beg and scream for withdrawals even though they know assets are frozen and even more people believe they can just open an account.

Tellering is FROZEN people.

When we have enough isk over the threshhold mark, then that portion will be available for withdrawals and I'll start doing them again. Till then, please please stop with the eve mails and posts. It makes me not want to log in at all, and then that would be one less person processing operations, making things take even longer. The teller station is lockdown. The lights to the front customer lobby are out but the back office still runs.

I have not read the entire thread and I really have no intention to as the vested interest of the parties speaking are not established. Please dont tell me what I have to do with my voluntary play time. I wont tell you what to do with yours.


RAW23
Posted - 2010.06.12 23:15:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: RAW23 on 12/06/2010 23:34:58
Originally by: Athre
What I do not understand is why people continue to beg and scream for withdrawals even though they know assets are frozen and even more people believe they can just open an account.

Tellering is FROZEN people.

When we have enough isk over the threshhold mark, then that portion will be available for withdrawals and I'll start doing them again.




This isn't the impression that either Ray or SencneS have given. They have both suggested quite strongly that the deciding issue will not be the quantity of isk over the threshhold but whether or not allowing withdrawals will interfere with or slow down complete recovery (example). Could you clarify that issue?


Quote:

Till then, please please stop with the eve mails and posts. It makes me not want to log in at all, and then that would be one less person processing operations, making things take even longer. The teller station is lockdown. The lights to the front customer lobby are out but the back office still runs.

I have not read the entire thread and I really have no intention to as the vested interest of the parties speaking are not established. Please dont tell me what I have to do with my voluntary play time. I wont tell you what to do with yours.




If you do choose to read some of this thread, you will also see that one of your fellow directors has explicitly encouraged depositors to file withdrawal requests, stating that he won't push for withdrawals until those requests reach a certain level (1 and 2). You might want to clarify that issue with the board.

And nobody is telling you what to do with your voluntary playtime. They are trying to suggest what you might do with the money belonging to other people that you insist on holding on to.

edit - Links added.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.06.12 23:19:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Athre
Please dont tell me what I have to do with my voluntary play time. I wont tell you what to do with yours.


Being a volunteer is no excuse. Once you volunteer for something, you'll have to honour your commitment.

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.13 01:12:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Athre
Varo Jan - I agree EBANK is not behaving like a bank, its not and its not going to for some time. What I do not understand is why ... even more people believe they can just open an account.


Quote:
How do I create an EBANK account?

It's easy, just send any amount of isk to the EVE-Tech Savings n Loans corporation ingame (ticker [EBANK] ).


That's a quote from your own FAQ, one that you ought to be aware of. Now don't you think it's well past time that you deleted all the nonsensical statements on your website?

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2010.06.13 04:39:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Athre

I have not read the entire thread and I really have no intention to as the vested interest of the parties speaking are not established.




Athre, how do you know what the vested interests of the parties is?

You have no idea what anyones vested interests are, because you have never talked to your customers and asked them what they want.

Many people posting in this thread (and the other couple that RAW23 started) have an interest in EBANK successfully brining an end to this current financial situation. This could be liquidation or full solvency, at this moment some good ideas (all ideas in brainstorming help) are coming out and may or may not be used.

For myself I want EBANK to remove itself from bankruptcy (for want of a better word), as I think it would be a good thing if done right and I am also interested in what is best for the customers.

I have also not done this from an armchair position as I am pretty sure I lent you guys 6B ISK just over a week ago (with 0% collateral) so you could purchase a T2 BPO, the loan has been paid back.

Feel free to criticise when you know what the vested interests are, or read the whole post, but don't just shout back a pretty ignorant rant.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.06.13 14:35:00 - [190]
 

I think it's time to step in and clear a few things up. Thanks to everyone for the constructive and not so constructive feedback, a lot of which we had already tossed around ourselves.

Withdraws
I know there has been mention of this and everyone keeps referencing that last announcement where we talked about that 700b mark. There were several parts of that announcement that we liked and thought were going to work, until we got some feedback and started to realize they weren't.

Until further notice, please consider the previously mentioned withdraw procedure to be tossed out the window. There is a way for individuals to get a % of their isk back if they do not wish to ride things out, that will be a part of the next announcement.

@comments about requesting withdraws
There is some confusion about this topic by everyone based on comments Sencnes made. To clarify, it doesn't matter how much isk people set in the withdraw queue. That may be something Sencnes is watching closely in order to gauge public opinion and the organization is not.

In all actuality, requesting a withdraw does nothing at all. Ray clears out the withdraw queue every so often anyways. I've been working recently on getting those individuals who deposited isk after the freeze to request withdraws so I can send them their isk but that is unrelated to those with frozen isk.

@Varo Jan
Any ***hole can tell that we don't run to our FAQ every time we get ready to make a decision or post on here. That FAQ was rendered useless the minute we froze isk. Actually it was nothing more than smoke and mirrors during most of the time the bank was "open for business" considering Ricdic and Co. didn't follow it.

I'm not going to waste my time going over the website and removing all the statements you feel are nonsensical. I've actually spoken to individuals who open accounts and the vast majority of them know the bank isn't working but still choose to open an account just to check out the interface and play around. And to the population that deposit isk and don't know that accounts are frozen, they can request a withdraw at any time and get 100% of their isk back.

I've never liked your tone in most MD threads, especially since you took over LoW's enterprise. The reason you get under a lot of people's skin is because you talk down to everyone, you might not realize it but you do. And yes I know a lot of people do the very same thing but I guess I expected a bit more from you than I do from others. Thankfully I've got an ego the size of Chribba's veldspar and I realize this is just a game.

@cosmoray
Although I assumed dealings done in private were kept private, yes you did loan me 6b isk a few weeks ago for the period of 1 week. Sometimes this isk is used for my personal dealings and sometimes it is used to make a purchase when someone else within ebank is offline and I can't get access to their isk. But every time it has been me personally taking on the debt.

@everyone else
I think enough has been hinted at by Ray to draw some conclusions, but for now nothing more should be said. If you feel you have another relevant question/comment please feel free to toss it out. I know some of you will continue to spew the quality of posting you always do, those are fun to read.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.06.13 14:51:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Athre
Shar - just because you, personally, do not see movement doesnt mean there isnt a current under the water.
Just because someone's eyes sparkle doesn't mean there is anything behind them either.

PS: You might want to check your tone with me young lady. I've no patience left for you.

Taikun
Gallente
Jovoso
Teldar Paper
Posted - 2010.06.13 14:54:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Shar Tegral
PS: You might want to check your tone with me young lady. I've no patience left for you.[/justify]


Are you making a threat? Do you need to be reported for forum abuse?

Taikun

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.06.13 16:17:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Taikun
Are you making a threat? Do you need to be reported for forum abuse?
Sure, go ahead.

As to my tone: Big problem with eBank people. They make everything personal. Questions about the integrity or direction of eBank is a slight upon them personally. Thus they keep making everything personal and put their personal relationships at risk.

Fine example, AC 155. Like him, trust him, but tbh snide single sentences demonstrating some prescient knowledge that he is not deigning to share with us lesser beings isn't really helpful. This is part of the mental disconnect between reality and eBank.

No one worth noting actually dislikes or distrusts any of you (or at least many of you) on a personal level. However eBank has forever more burned any public trust in the institution itself. There is NOTHING you can do to change that. There is NOTHING anyone could do to change that.

Ever.


So my advice is to get your heads out your egocentric asses and realize that the dislike is for eBank, not yourselves. If you choose to work and represent eBank, you need to equally accept that people are going to direct eBank ire your direction. IMNSHO you people are being rather juvenile about this entirely.

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2010.06.13 16:21:00 - [194]
 

One suggestion for Ebank Ė either keep the public financials up to date or remove them. In their current form they donít appear to have much function except as troll food.

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.06.13 16:24:00 - [195]
 

Posting to confirm EveBank is just a new form of scam.

"Its your money, really. You just can't have it back. Sorry!"

GL with that folks. Maybe someday all the depositors and creditors will have quit or gone away or stopped caring, so you can appropriate the ISK while pretending you somehow are better than common thieves who at least had the gumption to admit they were thieves.

Taikun
Gallente
Jovoso
Teldar Paper
Posted - 2010.06.13 16:29:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: Taikun on 13/06/2010 16:31:32
Originally by: Shar Tegral

Big problem with eBank people. They make everything personal. Questions about the integrity or direction of eBank is a slight upon them personally.

However eBank has forever more burned any public trust in the institution itself.

If you choose to work and represent eBank, you need to equally accept that people are going to direct eBank ire your direction.[/justify]


I was just sick in my mouth a little bit. You are making complete sense.

I dislike E-Bank for the overbearing arrogance of their "leaders" personal sense of self-worth. Especially the way they carry out chain reactions of narcissistic self supporting validations.

Just my observation.

Taikun

EDIT: Actually ... my feelings extend to the so called "Market Elites" in here for the very same reasons.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.06.13 16:30:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: SetrakDark
Unfortunately, you guys have continued to doddle along showing no real progress except in more make-believe bank structuring and flashy yet contentless presentation.

We never intended the post in question to be such, although I can see how it may be construed that way. When the decision to adjust internal positions was made it was deemed prudent to formalise the structure in some way, especially considering the public nomination process introduced. So what was meant to be just an informative post had some fluff added to it.

Originally by: Jackie Fisher
One suggestion for Ebank Ė either keep the public financials up to date or remove them. In their current form they donít appear to have much function except as troll food.

Yeah. They'll be changed so that the useful parts remain in some form, and periodic updates will be made to static financial statements.

RAW23
Posted - 2010.06.13 17:07:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155

Any ***hole can tell that we don't run to our FAQ every time we get ready to make a decision or post on here. That FAQ was rendered useless the minute we froze isk. Actually it was nothing more than smoke and mirrors during most of the time the bank was "open for business" considering Ricdic and Co. didn't follow it.

I'm not going to waste my time going over the website and removing all the statements you feel are nonsensical.


I don't know how laborious editing websites is but you probably don't need to go over the FAQ with a fine-tooth comb. Given what you say about it having been smoke and mirrors from the start, couldn't you just take the whole thing down?

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.06.13 18:05:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 13/06/2010 18:06:42
Originally by: Shar Tegral
[
Fine example, AC 155. Like him, trust him, but tbh snide single sentences demonstrating some prescient knowledge that he is not deigning to share with us lesser beings isn't really helpful. This is part of the mental disconnect between reality and eBank.



If that's the attitude you wish to take from it then so be it, no one can stop you from coming to that conclusion. There are valid reasons I can't "spill the beans" and as always I'd be more than happy to share them with you specifically. I'm just not going to waste my time feeding the trolls right now.

I like you and trust you as well but sometimes I feel like you say things before you really think about them, not very often but this is one of those situations. I do it all the time, but then again some people are known for it. You on the other hand don't, so when you do it is unexpected.

There are big plans, but if we simply state them right now then we can go ahead and scrap the whole idea.

Originally by: RAW23


I don't know how laborious editing websites is but you probably don't need to go over the FAQ with a fine-tooth comb. Given what you say about it having been smoke and mirrors from the start, couldn't you just take the whole thing down?


Actually I've wanted to take most of it down and just leave the login page but I don't have the access or the know how and I'm not about to put Ray on it when there's more important work to do.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.06.13 18:20:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
If that's the attitude you wish to take from it then so be it, no one can stop you from coming to that conclusion. There are valid reasons I can't "spill the beans" and as always I'd be more than happy to share them with you specifically.
The point I was making is if you can't spill the beans don't go dribbling some on the floor either. In fact that behavior is trolling as it's nothing more than, "neener neener neener - I know something you don't". So don't tell me about not feeding the trolls when you go feeding trolls and supporters alike a bunch of bs.

The other side of things is that eBank has become quite uncommunicative, close minded, and arrogant. So entrenched in the mindset that anyone criticizing you is the enemy or defective. At least I know that you, Ray, and Athre have quite specifically demonstrated such bias.

You guys can no longer tell friends from enemies and thus you have, and make, only enemies. Even out of your friends.

PS: The eBank hubris has already cost one of you a long term friendship. I'm just saying, on my way out the door, that you guys really need to have a re-think on your own assumptions about matters.

Zalafas
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.13 19:26:00 - [201]
 

I know I shouldn't wade in here, but... does EBANK actually expect people to start depositing again someday? After all this?

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.06.13 19:32:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Zalafas
I know I shouldn't wade in here, but... does EBANK actually expect people to start depositing again someday? After all this?
Um, yeah.

Companion Trollin
You are going too fast
Posted - 2010.06.13 20:10:00 - [203]
 

I'm not sure where all of you trolls came from but Ebank needs our support right now. I think all of you haters should just stop posting, clearly Ray is doing the best job he possibly can.

Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2010.06.13 21:35:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Shar Tegral
eBank has become quite uncommunicative, close minded, and arrogant.


Thank you for being constructive and providing Ray with a job description.

A lot of this discussion is a moot point as ebank customers are required to wear a helmet to get by in everyday life. There's nothing that is actually going to help them.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.06.13 23:09:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Zalafas
I know I shouldn't wade in here, but... does EBANK actually expect people to start depositing again someday? After all this?


No.

RAW23
Posted - 2010.06.14 14:07:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Originally by: Zalafas
I know I shouldn't wade in here, but... does EBANK actually expect people to start depositing again someday? After all this?


No.


Erm ... I hope that in the name of maximum clarity I can be forgiven for what may appear to be a completely dimwitted question but ...

Is this a serious post or not?

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.06.14 14:15:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: RAW23
Erm ... I hope that in the name of maximum clarity I can be forgiven for what may appear to be a completely dimwitted question but ... Is this a serious post or not?
I wondered the same but thought if I asked I'd be seen as trolling.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.14 14:28:00 - [208]
 

The thread has run it's course I believe, it should be closed.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2010.06.14 14:40:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Athre
Please dont tell me what I have to do with my voluntary play time. I wont tell you what to do with yours.


Being a volunteer is no excuse. Once you volunteer for something, you'll have to honour your commitment.


That's a nice statement, one that most people here don't realize. It's difficult to honour your commitment when everyone around you is throwing trash at your head. It would be like accepting one of those US Road adoption things, where you volunteer to keep a one mile stretch of road clean of trash. And while you're out there cleaning that area people are driving past heckling you and throwing rotten vegetables at your face. Or even better yet, you're doing the way you believe is the best, and people stop their car and scream at you, you're doing it all WRONG and you should be doing it this way!

------
Clarification on Withdrawals. I do a decent amount of monitoring, withdrawal requests are one of them. If anything it gives a pretty decent indication of how much ISK it would take to clear them out, how active the customers etc.

I also made it VERY clear that once 218B in withdrawals became available I would push for a liquidation of a BPO, however what people don't seem to understand is I am 1/5th of the BOD. While I can push for something to happen that doesn't mean I will not get voted out 4:1. Got to keep that in mind instead of clinging on to it. Only when I post as "EBANK SencneS" I speak as the bank, of it's this character right here, it's all me. I made that clear way back in this thread and nothing every changes. EBANK SencneS is speaking for EBANK ONLY. SencneS is just me and my opinion, ideas, and theories non-reflective of anything in EBANK. I've made this clear over and over again if you don't get it by now you're all mentally challenged.


RAW23
Posted - 2010.06.14 14:51:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
The thread has run it's course I believe, it should be closed.


If you can give me convincing grounds for asking the mods to lock this thread, I will do so. But the fact that locking threads has become traditional for EBANK discussions will not be sufficient grounds Wink.


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