open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Bug Reporting.... Is it worth the effort?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.03 19:43:00 - [1]
 


I recently filed a bug report concerning unpublished skills (which were previously seeded) not showing in the queue management window and causing the api to error out when 1 or more of these skills was queued/being trained..

The first reponse was that the skill queue would not support them and the bug report was closed.

So i reopend the report explaining that the skill queue will support unpublished skills, they just can't be added via the skillqueue manager window.

The report was then accepted and added to a defect... great i thought, the issue will be sorted.

A few days later when i filed a new report on another issue, i noticed that the status of my previous report had changed to "Fixed in Planetary Interaction". I thought WoW that was quickShocked

Untill i checked ingame and discovered that the issue had NOT be fixed at allEvil or Very Mad and being left with the impression why did i even bother at all?.

So i have to ask is it worth filling reports? are we just be led up the garden path to keep us happy? or are these reports actually dealt with/fixed?

Report id 94716 if any dev is interested in taking a look...

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.06.03 20:04:00 - [2]
 

I mostly file bug reports to laugh at the responses, otherwise not worth the effort. A felt 80% of them get results like you describe. I just nerdraged against CCP in another thread where the dev told me to file a bug report and the bughunter had already filtered it as being by design. So yeah, they are pointless except for comedy value.

PS: You can also get it the other way around, the GM tells you it's by design and the BH accepts it as a bug and it actually gets fixed. It's pretty much random.

Larinioides cornutus
Posted - 2010.06.03 20:13:00 - [3]
 

On my last bug report, module cycling glitch (connection/latency issue) is told to be caused by intel graphics chip. They also mentioned I should have played eve windowed, in lowest setting and in safe mode instead of playing it windowed, in lowest setting and in safe mode. I dont feel like buying a new graphics card just to win internet arguments so I have let that report expire.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.06.03 23:19:00 - [4]
 

Everything I reported so far got fixed. I must be making something wrong, I always wanted to scream, rant and moan at CCP. Sad

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.06.04 03:32:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Everything I reported so far got fixed. I must be making something wrong, I always wanted to scream, rant and moan at CCP. Sad

Hmm, let's see, the last thing I reported that actually got fixed was a while ago. Quite a few got their status changed to fixed but they haven't actually been fixed. Actually most of the ones with a "fixed" status are still broken.

Ok, I found it, January 22nd is one that got fixed, it's my bug report about the alliance standings icon on the show info pages being misplaced (it was cut off at the bottom). I had reported that and provided a screenshot, did get the customary "cannot reproduce" response - bug report filtered. When I then told the BH that he must be out of his mind because the screenshot clearly showed the bug I was told that they do not care about screenshots because I could have photoshopped it. I then proceeded to heavily insult him at which point it suddenly got accepted as a bug and eventually fixed in this expansion. No wait, that isn't actually fixed, while the icon is no longer cut off it is still misplaced, only in a different place now. Also the corp icon is now squashed in addition (probably because they made space for the standings icon no longer being cut off ... I kid...).

Alright, so we will have to go further back. Ok got it. January 17th. A bug report to further another bug report from October 2009 about the ingame browser's trust function being broken in several ways. That actually got fixed now. Only 8 months. Nice. Bug was reported 2 months before they even deployed it to TQ btw. Shame they did not read my bug report then, my corp has been unable to use the ingame browser for an entire expansion because of that.

Also my report on territorial claim units not being repackageable was fixed. That was after my petition for a GM to repackage it for me was rejected because it was supposedly working as intended (despite the bug report already having been accepted as a bug).

My oldest still open bug report is currently over a year old and incidentally the one which could be fixed in under a minute (adding the subsystem icon (and heading) to the character sheet on this site - I even gave the path to the icon in their own image dump). Well, now the planet management icon and heading are missing, too. Who needs those anyway. One more open bug report for my list...

So to quote you again:
Originally by: Abrazzar
Everything I reported so far got fixed. I must be making something wrong, I always wanted to scream, rant and moan at CCP. Sad

In light of my experience, your statement leads me to the conclusion that one of the following is probably true: You only ever filed a single bug report. You invented that just to come up with a witty response. You are a dev alt. Which one is it?

Aera Aiana
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.04 06:56:00 - [6]
 

I got mixed results, too. It depends a lot on the bughunter assigned to the report. Some don't seem to bother reading the entire thing. Maybe I'm not explaining it well enough, but I doubt it. RL-colleagues/friends told me more than once that I should have become a teacher.

ISD BH Zahan


ISD BH
Posted - 2010.06.04 06:59:00 - [7]
 

Unfortunately the current bug reporting system has a few limitations, one being that when a defect is closed it will show up as "Fixed in Foobar" no matter what status it was given when it got closed. Amateratsu, your defect for example got closed as "By Design".





Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.04 07:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: ISD BH Zahan
Unfortunately the current bug reporting system has a few limitations, one being that when a defect is closed it will show up as "Fixed in Foobar" no matter what status it was given when it got closed. Amateratsu, your defect for example got closed as "By Design".



How can the Api returning an error message...please try again later when an unpublished skill is queued / being trained possibly be concidered to be "By Design"Question

How can being able to add unpublished skills to the skill queue via your character sheet but not via the skillqueue window possibly be concidered "By Design"Question

Who decides that a reported issue is by designQuestion Do you consult with the DevsQuestion or do you make it up as you go along because you can't be bothered to validate the issue and just want to fob off the players reporting the issuesQuestion

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but this is Bull****Twisted Evil

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.04 08:22:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: ISD BH Zahan
Unfortunately the current bug reporting system has a few limitations, one being that when a defect is closed it will show up as "Fixed in Foobar" no matter what status it was given when it got closed. Amateratsu, your defect for example got closed as "By Design".



How can the Api returning an error message...please try again later when an unpublished skill is queued / being trained possibly be concidered to be "By Design"Question

How can being able to add unpublished skills to the skill queue via your character sheet but not via the skillqueue window possibly be concidered "By Design"Question

Who decides that a reported issue is by designQuestion Do you consult with the DevsQuestion or do you make it up as you go along because you can't be bothered to validate the issue and just want to fob off the players reporting the issuesQuestion

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but this is Bull****Twisted Evil


It's really the same as with petition.

There's probably so much in the queue that every chance to get an item done in a minute by applying a standard answer/procedure is worth a try. Even if the answer/procedure doesn't really fit.

ISD BH Zahan


ISD BH
Posted - 2010.06.04 08:24:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: ISD BH Zahan on 04/06/2010 08:24:50
Originally by: Amateratsu

Who decides that a reported issue is by designQuestion Do you consult with the DevsQuestion or do you make it up as you go along because you can't be bothered to validate the issue and just want to fob off the players reporting the issuesQuestion

It is the devs that decide if a defect is by design or not. So no, we don't make it up as we go.

A bug hunters job is to verify bugs reported by players, no matter how tiny or trivial they are. Once a bug is confirmed it will be defected and no longer be under control of the bug hunters.

A few tips about how to go about getting *your* bug processed is to be very clear in the bug report about what the problem is, write a detailed list of reproduction steps and last but not least, show some decent manners and respect. The last part does of course go both ways. If you have any complaints, feel free to send in a petition or email the BH leads at contact@eve-bh.net.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.04 09:06:00 - [11]
 


Fair enough, so if a player does not agree with a decition made in a bug report, how does he/she persue the issue?

Just like in petitions where the GM's do not always get things right you can escalate the petition to a higher level.

Im sure it is the same with the devs, they are not omnipotant and do not always get things right.

Do i file a new report giving more detail / evidence?
Can a bug report be escalated?

CCP Lemur

Posted - 2010.06.04 10:21:00 - [12]
 

Hello Amateratsu,

thanks for your report. What Zahan has been saying so far is correct. Once they reproduce the bug you report and make it into a defect it is out if their hands for the most part. I looked over your defect and reopened it adding your reasoning. I can't however say what will happen next. Since it is a bug with a low priority (there are just not that many people that have these skill and let alone train them) it might not be fixed for while or set to "won't fix" aka "by design".
There is no mechanic for people to challenge their issues like it is with petitions since this process is rather one-way only. But sometimes posts like these catch our attention.
I hope this answers your questions.
Lemur

CCP Lemur

Posted - 2010.06.04 10:26:00 - [13]
 

One more thing about "fixed in" stages: If a defect gets closed in say "Planetary Interaction" it doesn't mean it will be deployed right away. Some things we can hotfix if they are server-side only (we actually apply these several times a week for various systems). But client fixes have to wait for a client patch which happens way less often.

Sade Onyx
Posted - 2010.06.04 12:08:00 - [14]
 

Personally I find that every kind of contact with CCP is nearly always mis-understood, no matter how clear, precise or informative your petition/bug report is.

I can only imagine that they have such a large workload that their attention and concentration is watered down and spread very thin indeed.

I would go so far as to that actually, the more you type into a petition/report the less chance there is of CCP understanding you. Petitioning and bug reporting with CCP is almost like trying to dance with them... you've got to do it one small step at a time and lead them carefully to the point your trying to make.

Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
Posted - 2010.06.04 14:59:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Ulviirala Vauryndar on 04/06/2010 14:59:37
I filed so many bug reports that I can't be bothered to count them right now but I'm generally satisfied with the way they're handled and I've had bughunters or catched posts with explainations.

There was just this one thing that kept bugging me, it was when you warp into a gravimetric exploration site for the first time after the downtime, I always used to get bumped on the first rat spawn (at a couple of hundred metres per second!) and desync afterwards. Which wasn't fixed until the date I last checked :P

And apparently being unable to be a shameless CEO and set the corporation tax to 500% to enrich yourself isn't a bug :(

So we were happy to possibly have been of any help and unhappy for some reason one time or another, too. :)

I conclude that it's very well worth filing a good bug report. A short and clear description, reproduction steps and possibly a logserver log (which I often only can add if I'm able to consistently reproduce something, since I don't have it always running).

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.04 19:10:00 - [16]
 

Thank You CCP Lemur

I can accept that unpublished skills not showing in the skillqueue window my be by design and is a minor issue as they are listed and can be trained / queued from your character sheet.

However when training / queing 1 of these skills breaks the api, its a more annoying issue.

It just felt like i was bashing my head against a brick wall trying to get an issue recognised.

Thanks again for looking into the issue for meVery Happy

Seismos
Posted - 2010.06.04 19:20:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Seismos on 04/06/2010 19:21:17
I have an issue with the contract history.
No one can see any finished courier contracts I completed in 2010 but me.

When I realized that I created a petition.
After several rounds of "working as intended" a GM finally understood the problem and was able to reproduce the issue with the instructions I provided:
open my contract history, find no completed courier contracts from 2010
open the history of player <name removed>, find a courier contract from 2010 completed by me
look at that screenshot of my contract history as I can see it, find hundreds of completed courier contracts from 2010
look at that screenshot of my contract history as my alt can see it, find no completed courier contracts from 2010

GM told me there's nothing he could do, I have to file a bug report.
So I created a bug report.
I thought all was done and good.


A week later a senior GM reopened the petition and everything started again Shocked
"Working as intend, I can see your contracts from 2009" Evil or Very Mad

After another round of "20 questions" the senior GM could also reproduce the issue and even informed me other characters have the same problem.
He would add this information to the bug report and told me he would see that this gets fixed rather soon.


This all happened end of March, more than 2 months ago.
Nothing has changed, the bug report looks still the way it looked when I created it on 2010.04.02 20:15:36
The problem is still not fixed.

2 weeks of debate with GMs, providing screenshots, reproduction steps, answering all questions.
All for nothing Evil or Very Mad

Pennwisedom
Gallente
Sublime.
Posted - 2010.06.04 19:22:00 - [18]
 

GMs have nothing to do with bugs.

Seismos
Posted - 2010.06.04 19:25:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Pennwisedom
GMs have nothing to do with bugs.


Did you miss the part where I wrote I created a bug report?

Also the GMs were able to reproduce the problem.
So this is not a case of "cannot reproduce".

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.06.05 17:48:00 - [20]
 

I bug reported the Navicom (toolbar) in autohide mode pops up sometimes when you jump through a gate, and then never automatically goes away until you first click in space and then click the toolbar, over two years ago... still not fixed.

And tbh if CCP can't be arsed to put in place a bug tracking system so I can check whether a bug report I'm considering making is a complete duplicate of something someone else has already discovered then why would I waste my time trying to do their own QA for them for free?


Larinioides cornutus
Posted - 2010.06.05 18:14:00 - [21]
 

If they put up public bug tracker people will be able to see all the bugs they have and actually have to fix them before someone else abuse it. Also they dont like showing errors. Most private companies do this.

Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
Posted - 2010.06.05 23:37:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
[...]still not fixed[...]


As they already worte, there are priorities to bugs. Some bugs are only minor interface isues for example, others are really gamebreaking. I'm a developer myself and sometimes I even have to decide if it's a gamebreaking issue that even might cause the server to crash and/or requires a deployment ASAP which implies a server restart at prime time which make people moan :D or if it can wait for the next scheduled downtime or even patch deployment.

It's also sometimes difficult to track down a particular issue or understand it fully, that's why you may have to explain it more thoroughful. How it happens, when it happens and why it happens in a huge pile of code, sometimes takes its sweet time to locate. Which is also going to the priority thing. If it's not really gamebreaking at all and takes a long time to track down and to fix, unfortunately making it lose priority. HELL, I'm utterly annoyed about some bugs, but alas... this is the way it works ;) I mean, I haven't really met anyone else complaining about being bumped all the time :P

I always tell people not to worry about it though, because it is on my todo list and it's not going to vanish, I'm going to get to it once I have the time, and I'm pretty certain this is the case with all (y)our bug reports.

I keep track of all this with "ToDoList", one of the most awesome tools I've ever seen. It feels so lightweight and runs fast but still has a lot of optional stuff you can use, also it's provided as open source software by a dedicated developer. You can find out more through that link to codeproject.com :)

A lot of people are involved in EVE and GMs and others who don't have a fond grasp of what's going on in source code are eager to provide the Devs with as much information as possible, which is why you may have to explain things more thoroughful or sometimes all over again.

Anyway, just go for a good bug report, if you're trying, it'll be of help :)

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.06 05:30:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ulviirala Vauryndar

I always tell people not to worry about it though, because it is on my todo list and it's not going to vanish, I'm going to get to it once I have the time, and I'm pretty certain this is the case with all (y)our bug reports.



Cool story, bro.

Keep telling people not to worry for a year or more and they really will stop.
Probably they will also stop to bother.


It's so cool that "effort to find", "effort to understand", "effort to fix" is part of the "priority formula" and
so bad that "annoyance of the customer", "age of the problem", "number of 'don't worry, it'll be fixed' messages" seems to be missing in there.

If your todo-list keeps growing then something is definitely wrong!
If you keep saying "I'll fix that later" to the same issue again and again then something is definitely wrong!

Just for one minute try to imagine this is about money you are to received from someone else
and that person keeps saying "Don't worry, I'll pay that later. It's on my todo-list, so I won't forget Very Happy".
How does that feel?
How long would you continue to wait?

(No, I'm not suggesting we get out subscription money back because there are bugs.
I'm aware of the fact that the holy EULA grants no compensation for us players in any form.
This is just meant as an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment)

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.06 06:49:00 - [24]
 


My annoyance was not with the fact that it was a low priority.
I understand that some bugs take time to track down and fix, and would be quite happy to wait.

What annoyed me was the fact that the issue was repeatedly rejecyed without any kind of explanation, eg closing the report stating it has been fixed when in fact there was no intention to fix it as it was concidered to be by design.

But i had no way of knowing that until i made this post and had it investigated.

Now had they replied to my bug report that my issue was a minor bug with a low priority and as such was unlikely to get fixed, but we will keep it on our defect tracking list.
I would have accepted that and never made this post.

But to state that it had been fixed when there was no intention to fix it is bad comunication.



Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
Posted - 2010.06.07 20:11:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Ulviirala Vauryndar on 07/06/2010 20:11:31
Mh I guess I find the time to fix things eventually if it isn't working as intended yet Laughing

The specifics regarding EVE have been answered already.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.06.07 22:12:00 - [26]
 

Well, bugs etc... but what about design flaws? No, not gaming designs - coding designs.
Simple example: try to enter as many underscores in the chat input field as you'd like.
Notice the resulting string length.
Now input the "><" signs in the same field. You'll see the difference quite soon.

I've reported it for two places at least (Address bar and bookmark names), now it appeared in chat. Wonder how many other places affected.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.06.07 22:51:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 07/06/2010 22:55:41
Reported: 2008.08.31 16:10:23 Fixed in: Planetary Interaction

Lol. They didnt hurry.

Reported: 2009.09.16 12:25:35 This report has been attached to a defect
//Hi,
//we´re aware of this problem.
//hopefully be fixed soonTM.

Guess soon means 2011, summer expansion. So according to soon=2 years, rockets should be fixed in winter. Yay - i found out what soon means!

EDIT:
and nowadays?... i dont bug report anymore. I know of like 5-10 more bugs (some more some less important) but CBA.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.08 03:49:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/06/2010 03:54:49
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/06/2010 03:54:15
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/06/2010 03:53:18
Originally by: Amateratsu

My annoyance was not with the fact that it was a low priority.
I understand that some bugs take time to track down and fix, and would be quite happy to wait.

What annoyed me was the fact that the issue was repeatedly rejecyed without any kind of explanation, eg closing the report stating it has been fixed when in fact there was no intention to fix it as it was concidered to be by design.



What annoys me is you care so much about skills that you shouldn't even have ever had access (and don't on TQ) to and don't even do anything or have any reason to train in the first place.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 07/06/2010 22:55:41
Reported: 2008.08.31 16:10:23 Fixed in: Planetary Interaction

Lol. They didnt hurry.

Reported: 2009.09.16 12:25:35 This report has been attached to a defect
//Hi,
//we´re aware of this problem.
//hopefully be fixed soonTM.

Guess soon means 2011, summer expansion. So according to soon=2 years, rockets should be fixed in winter. Yay - i found out what soon means!

EDIT:
and nowadays?... i dont bug report anymore. I know of like 5-10 more bugs (some more some less important) but CBA.


So what you're saying is you are useless and obnoxious? I am sure if only they hired you you could fix ALL of those bugs in one day.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.08 06:58:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/06/2010 03:54:49
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/06/2010 03:54:15
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/06/2010 03:53:18
Originally by: Amateratsu

My annoyance was not with the fact that it was a low priority.
I understand that some bugs take time to track down and fix, and would be quite happy to wait.

What annoyed me was the fact that the issue was repeatedly rejecyed without any kind of explanation, eg closing the report stating it has been fixed when in fact there was no intention to fix it as it was concidered to be by design.



What annoys me is you care so much about skills that you shouldn't even have ever had access (and don't on TQ) to and don't even do anything or have any reason to train in the first place.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 07/06/2010 22:55:41
Reported: 2008.08.31 16:10:23 Fixed in: Planetary Interaction

Lol. They didnt hurry.

Reported: 2009.09.16 12:25:35 This report has been attached to a defect
//Hi,
//we´re aware of this problem.
//hopefully be fixed soonTM.

Guess soon means 2011, summer expansion. So according to soon=2 years, rockets should be fixed in winter. Yay - i found out what soon means!

EDIT:
and nowadays?... i dont bug report anymore. I know of like 5-10 more bugs (some more some less important) but CBA.


So what you're saying is you are useless and obnoxious? I am sure if only they hired you you could fix ALL of those bugs in one day.


That's exactly what he said.

He also meant your reply will be completely foolish and off topic.
But he said that's okay, he wouldn't expect anything else from you.

And then there's this one comment about your character's portrait, but there's no need to repeat that. Embarassed
I'm sure you read that yourself...

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:07:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Catari Taga on 08/06/2010 08:07:10
Originally by: ISD BH Zahan
Edited by: ISD BH Zahan on 04/06/2010 08:24:50
Originally by: Amateratsu

Who decides that a reported issue is by designQuestion Do you consult with the DevsQuestion or do you make it up as you go along because you can't be bothered to validate the issue and just want to fob off the players reporting the issuesQuestion

It is the devs that decide if a defect is by design or not. So no, we don't make it up as we go.

Cool story bro. So how do you explain these most responses I received with filtered bug reports?

Quote:
// Hello, I believe these changes are by design. [It] was probably changed to [random reasoning which made absolutely no sense and forced me to reopen the bug report]...

Quote:
[It] sounds like a "unintended feature" / bug that was fixed with the recent expansion as well.

Clearly the bughunters are talking out of their ass and haven't consulted with anyone before brushing my bug report off as being by design. And I can dig any number of examples for this out of my bug report history.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only