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Gajana
Caldari
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Posted - 2010.05.31 10:07:00 - [1]
 

I have just one question for you CCP team - could you please make up your mind specifically on lvl5s? Right now the mission hub patch afaik created many unintended consequences and confusion amongst pve players. Or the consequences were as you planned and you feel good about them but you haven't made any statements yet about it. There are also strong voices from pvp / alliance players to finally move all lvl5s to lowsec. So CCP could you just make clear what is your general future direction for lvl5s (roll-back to previous version with more high-sec missions / no change - right now it's as we planned / we are generally going to move them all to low-sec), so we can adapt and plan accordingly?

raukosen
Posted - 2010.05.31 10:39:00 - [2]
 

I'm not going to go dig up the post but CCP hinted that they would be stopping highsec level 5 missions so it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.05.31 10:49:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 31/05/2010 10:50:56
They have ALWAYS been intended as low-sec only. This change is a step in the right direction of solving the bugs that made them not so.

CCP dev post (#10):
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: goazer
Wrong, agents are in lowsec, but if the next door system is in highsec, you will get lvl 5 missions to highsec too.
Don't count on that lasting forever. YARRRR!!

CCP blog:
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below.

Seems pretty clear to me... Which part did you not understand?

Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2010.05.31 11:20:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/05/2010 10:50:56
They have ALWAYS been intended as low-sec only. This change is a step in the right direction of solving the bugs that made them not so.

CCP dev post (#10):
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: goazer
Wrong, agents are in lowsec, but if the next door system is in highsec, you will get lvl 5 missions to highsec too.
Don't count on that lasting forever. YARRRR!!

CCP blog:
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below.

Seems pretty clear to me... Which part did you not understand?



Before you get all up-in-your-face-look-at-me-I'm-awesome with your quotes there, please note that level 5's are still being assigned to highsec with some, albeit less, frequency.

I have run 6 and 1 level 5 storyline, and have several more queued right now. All in high sec. The lion's share are in low sec, to be sure, but the missions are still there if one is patient.

The request for clarification is valid; If they were meant to be only in lowsec, then they are clearly still broken and this patch was just a big 'up yours' to mission runners in general and a haphazard sloppy fix.

Contralto
Rift Tech
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:03:00 - [5]
 

Yes I can confirm that Hi sec missions are still offered, I'm in the back of beyond with almost no people in any neighbouring systems. That may screw up the new way Eve assigns missions to low traffic systems.

I'm getting perhaps 1 in 4 or 5 in hi sec. have to make at least 2 jumps thro lo sec to access the agent, missions are in different constellations and up to 5 jumps away. This is on Sisi which is at least one patch ahead of Tranq at the moment.

The missions are in a nice little hi sec island of 3 systems between 2 agents complete with full station services including medical, how cool is that!

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:14:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 31/05/2010 12:32:23
Originally by: Noran Ferah
Originally by: Kerfira
This change is a step in the right direction of solving the bugs that made them not so.

Before you get all up-in-your-face-look-at-me-I'm-awesome with your quotes there, please note that level 5's are still being assigned to highsec with some, albeit less, frequency.

I have run 6 and 1 level 5 storyline, and have several more queued right now. All in high sec. The lion's share are in low sec, to be sure, but the missions are still there if one is patient.

The request for clarification is valid; If they were meant to be only in lowsec, then they are clearly still broken and this patch was just a big 'up yours' to mission runners in general and a haphazard sloppy fix.

And which part of the above (now painted in red) did YOU not understand???

Unless you have any other confirmation from CCP, their stance on L5's are unchanged, i.e. ref. CCP Dropbear "Don't count on that lasting forever."

You may request all the confirmation you want, but I'm about 99.999% sure you'll be disappointed at the answer....

Besides, this change was not AIMED at L5's in particular. It was simply a load balancing fix that just unintentionally also fixed part of the L5 bug.

Gajana
Caldari
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:18:00 - [7]
 

Kerfira,

You just add to the general confusion. If CCP meant lvl5s for low sec why didn't they introduced them properly i.e. without high sec option? We surely can agree that programaticaly it's very easy to implement that change or fix (if it was a bug). And if it was a bug, did they admit it at least once? And then why is it still possible to do lvl5s in high sec although with much smaller chances?

All I saw were players speculations including yours. It's just nonsense that people are making several threads about it without some developer posting and resolving an issue.

The current system heavily favours players who play rarely so they can log in from time to time, roll over several lvl5 missions until get one or two in high sec and then do them from time to time. Is this what CCP intended to do? Why some CCP dev don't simply admit that in one paragraph of his blog. For example: "Yeah, we wanted to nerf notorious high-sec lvl5s farmers and felt that this would balance high sec professions. We then changed that smoothly in the current expansion without suddenly cutting off income from highsec lvl5s farmers. We intend to completely remove this possibility of highsec lvl5 in the future." That and especially the last sentence would be of great help for all the whining pve folks and could help them plan their path as well as adapt their assets and toons.

... assuming that was the intention of CCP.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:31:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 31/05/2010 12:34:06
Originally by: Gajana
You just add to the general confusion.

Adding to the confusion by referencing the stated intention of CCP?
That is NOT what is confusing people! The people who're desperately claiming that the status quo is what CCP 'must' have intended are the people confusing things.
Originally by: Gajana
If CCP meant lvl5s for low sec why didn't they introduced them properly i.e. without high sec option?

As for how they implemented them, that's how they ALWAYS implement stuff... Basically they put prototypes into the game, and then adjust them months or years later when they come around to it.
Originally by: Gajana
We surely can agree that programaticaly it's very easy to implement that change or fix (if it was a bug).

I don't know their code so I don't know how easy it is to fix it. However I do know that fixing bugs in old legacy code is not always as easy as saying so...
Originally by: Gajana
And if it was a bug, did they admit it at least once?

Ehem... What was it CCP Dropbear said in that post I quoted? I'm almost SURE you've read it... "Don't count on that lasting forever."
That's a much better admission of it being a bug than CCP normally gives.
Originally by: Gajana
And then why is it still possible to do lvl5s in high sec although with much smaller chances?

As I said above: "Besides, this change was not AIMED at L5's in particular. It was simply a load balancing fix that just unintentionally also fixed part of the L5 bug."

Rothrin
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:37:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Gajana
Kerfira,

You just add to the general confusion. If CCP meant lvl5s for low sec why didn't they introduced them properly i.e. without high sec option? We surely can agree that programaticaly it's very easy to implement that change or fix (if it was a bug). And if it was a bug, did they admit it at least once? And then why is it still possible to do lvl5s in high sec although with much smaller chances?

All I saw were players speculations including yours. It's just nonsense that people are making several threads about it without some developer posting and resolving an issue.

The current system heavily favours players who play rarely so they can log in from time to time, roll over several lvl5 missions until get one or two in high sec and then do them from time to time. Is this what CCP intended to do? Why some CCP dev don't simply admit that in one paragraph of his blog. For example: "Yeah, we wanted to nerf notorious high-sec lvl5s farmers and felt that this would balance high sec professions. We then changed that smoothly in the current expansion without suddenly cutting off income from highsec lvl5s farmers. We intend to completely remove this possibility of highsec lvl5 in the future." That and especially the last sentence would be of great help for all the whining pve folks and could help them plan their path as well as adapt their assets and toons.

... assuming that was the intention of CCP.


Thre blog is over 3 years old, you can take it with a pinch of salt. As 6 patches have come and gone since then with less then 5% in the post being in game now.

More is the pity beacsue it had some bold ideas that would have worked in regards to getting people into low sec.

Myself i dont really think the problem is 5's in either high or low isnt the problem, 5's being to easy are, the bold part was make mission running 5's and on more team orientated, maybe we will see a dev with the vision to make the changes, maybe we wont.

Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:54:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Noran Ferah on 31/05/2010 12:55:07
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/05/2010 12:32:23
Originally by: Noran Ferah
Originally by: Kerfira
This change is a step in the right direction of solving the bugs that made them not so.

Before you get all up-in-your-face-look-at-me-I'm-awesome with your quotes there, please note that level 5's are still being assigned to highsec with some, albeit less, frequency.

I have run 6 and 1 level 5 storyline, and have several more queued right now. All in high sec. The lion's share are in low sec, to be sure, but the missions are still there if one is patient.

The request for clarification is valid; If they were meant to be only in lowsec, then they are clearly still broken and this patch was just a big 'up yours' to mission runners in general and a haphazard sloppy fix.

And which part of the above (now painted in red) did YOU not understand???



Unless you have any other confirmation from CCP, their stance on L5's are unchanged, i.e. ref. CCP Dropbear "Don't count on that lasting forever."

You may request all the confirmation you want, but I'm about 99.999% sure you'll be disappointed at the answer....

Besides, this change was not AIMED at L5's in particular. It was simply a load balancing fix that just unintentionally also fixed part of the L5 bug.





You mad?

Gajana
Caldari
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Posted - 2010.05.31 13:05:00 - [11]
 

Do you see posts under your last post Kerfira? This is why I have written about CCP devs making it clear. Even if you are completely right those will be just your opinions and interpretations. That's why we need some dev to write here or in the blog to settle the dispute.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2010.05.31 13:10:00 - [12]
 

Taking vague one liners as explicit statements of dev intent is cool.

No wonder they don't post on the forums anymore.

Goose99
Posted - 2010.05.31 13:24:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/05/2010 10:50:56
They have ALWAYS been intended as low-sec only. This change is a step in the right direction of solving the bugs that made them not so.

CCP dev post (#10):
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: goazer
Wrong, agents are in lowsec, but if the next door system is in highsec, you will get lvl 5 missions to highsec too.
Don't count on that lasting forever. YARRRR!!

CCP blog:
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below.

Seems pretty clear to me... Which part did you not understand?


The blog says "We're adding more Agent," "Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below." It was referring to agent location, which are indeed in 0.4 and below, not the missions themselves. It also refers to lvl6 and 7 agents, which didn't materialize.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.05.31 13:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Noran Ferah
You mad?

Nope! Just like rubbing peoples faces in their misconceptions Razz

The vehemence with which certain people will blindly ignore everything CCP has said about their intentions is awesomely funny. It'll be even more funny the day (probably not soon given CCP's normal speed) when L5's are finally completely fixed and never appear in high-sec.
Originally by: Goose99
The blog says "We're adding more Agent," "Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below." It was referring to agent location, which are indeed in 0.4 and below, not the missions themselves.

The blog is ambiguous (the previous sentence speaks of the missions when talking about the level, not the agents, which transfers to the next sentence).
You are of course also (again) blithely ignoring this simple and unambiguous quote:
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: goazer
Wrong, agents are in lowsec, but if the next door system is in highsec, you will get lvl 5 missions to highsec too.
Don't count on that lasting forever. YARRRR!!

Keep smoking your pipe... You know as well as I do that you're all going to be disappointed if CCP replies. Laughing

PS: CCP almost never replies to questions like this...

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.05.31 14:13:00 - [15]
 

Level 5 are meant to be taken and mainly done in low sec.

It can be a stray mission that gets randomly assigned to hi sec due to how close hi sec is to the agent, but that's a random chance. It's the same mechanism that can make a borderline hi sec L4 agent give missions in low sec of the same constellation.

In both cases the mechanism gets pushed to spread missions out of the mission hub depending on how many are populating said hub. This spread may cause hi sec agents to send people to low sec but also low sec L5 agents (L4 too, I got such weird thing missioning in low sec) to send you to hi sec.

Goose99
Posted - 2010.05.31 14:24:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Level 5 are meant to be taken and mainly done in low sec.

It can be a stray mission that gets randomly assigned to hi sec due to how close hi sec is to the agent, but that's a random chance. It's the same mechanism that can make a borderline hi sec L4 agent give missions in low sec of the same constellation.

In both cases the mechanism gets pushed to spread missions out of the mission hub depending on how many are populating said hub. This spread may cause hi sec agents to send people to low sec but also low sec L5 agents (L4 too, I got such weird thing missioning in low sec) to send you to hi sec.


Corps are organizing and dumping useless alts into lowsec lvl5 agent systems so they produce highsec lvl5s. People are adapting in unpredictable ways. Or predictable, depending on your perspective.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.05.31 14:36:00 - [17]
 

Quote:

Corps are organizing and dumping useless alts into lowsec lvl5 agent systems so they produce highsec lvl5s. People are adapting in unpredictable ways. Or predictable, depending on your perspective



And?
Adapting to an ever changing game is like... doing the obvious.

1OfMany
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:11:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Corps are organizing and dumping useless alts into lowsec lvl5 agent systems so they produce highsec lvl5s. People are adapting in unpredictable ways. Or predictable, depending on your perspective



And?
Adapting to an ever changing game is like... doing the obvious.


To be pragmatic, all CCP has to do is code a little function that checks if the offered Level 5 mission is taking place in Hi-sec, if sec. status is higher then 0.4 pick another system until it's in low-sec.

Come on, a simple sec. status check would be so easy to implement but they have not done that (yet) which leads me to believe it always worked as they intended, just as you can have level 3 (storyline) missions going to low-sec sometimes.

I find it funny that people tend to stick absolute truth to single comments/vague remarks from CCP employees where no followup's have been given, or maybe they use it as a weapon because it won't fit in their agenda's if it where different.

Dread Phantom
Caldari
End Game.
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:14:00 - [19]
 

ahh great change, now rather then lvl 5s being random into high sec its possible to force them into high sec Cool

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: 1OfMany

To be pragmatic, all CCP has to do is code a little function that checks if the offered Level 5 mission is taking place in Hi-sec, if sec. status is higher then 0.4 pick another system until it's in low-sec.

Come on, a simple sec. status check would be so easy to implement but they have not done that (yet) which leads me to believe it always worked as they intended, just as you can have level 3 (storyline) missions going to low-sec sometimes.


Truly, it is very hard to believe that CCP would design something, implement it in a half-assed way, and then not touch it again for years.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:22:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 31/05/2010 16:23:58
Edited by: Tom Peeping on 31/05/2010 16:23:08
Kerfira man... you woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I dunno why you started getting so ****y at those dudes... now of course you're both being ****y at each other.

Usually you're pretty reasonable.


huh? Why does that get edited? I wasn't cursing at all! The edit now makes it look like I was using the s word! LOL Well done CCP

Goose99
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:23:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dread Phantom
ahh great change, now rather then lvl 5s being random into high sec its possible to force them into high sec Cool


The more complicated a system is, the more room it leaves to be used and abused. They should have just left it to chance and not messed with it.

Dominion mission bug made it so that missions are more likely to be given in more crowded systems. Lowsec are empty, so it give highsec missions.

Tyrannis mission bug made it so that missions are more likely to be given in emptier systems. If you park useless alts in lowsec, it'll give highsec missions.

People are movable. Instead of replace one bug with another, CCP should have just got rid of the manually introduced bugs. Sticking to simple probability means no one can manipulate it and no one can ***** about it.

It also wouldn't cause additional problems like the mass-migration to deep highsec mission hubs we've been seeing.

1OfMany
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:27:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: 1OfMany

To be pragmatic, all CCP has to do is code a little function that checks if the offered Level 5 mission is taking place in Hi-sec, if sec. status is higher then 0.4 pick another system until it's in low-sec.

Come on, a simple sec. status check would be so easy to implement but they have not done that (yet) which leads me to believe it always worked as they intended, just as you can have level 3 (storyline) missions going to low-sec sometimes.


Truly, it is very hard to believe that CCP would design something, implement it in a half-assed way, and then not touch it again for years.


Indeed, my point as well. besides thinking about it, it's not even a simple function but slightly adjusting the database query for the pool of systems the agent can send you to, maybe even an adjustment server-side.

Goose99
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:43:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 31/05/2010 16:43:41
Once such an "adjustment" is made, the entire carebear population would demand that highsec lvl4 agents be "adjusted" as well to stick to their own sec status. And it would be perfectly rational too.

Making it unnecessarily complicated always produce more problems than they solve. Before you know it, it'll grow to resemble the US tax system. Reset it to follow simple probability. No loopholes to exploit and no reason to *****. So a handful of lvl5 agents happens to be near highsec? Bohoo, so what? That's how it is. You like lowsec missions? Go back to deep lowsec instead of idling on the border. Why should agents send carebears to lowsec, but not -10 pirates to high? What goes around comes around. Bohoo, big tears. It spawns a highsec mission once in a long while, and can't be manipulated to do so all the time like it is under Tyrannis. That's how it should be.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.05.31 16:50:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: 1OfMany
To be pragmatic, all CCP has to do is code a little function that checks if the offered Level 5 mission is taking place in Hi-sec, if sec. status is higher then 0.4 pick another system until it's in low-sec.

Come on, a simple sec. status check would be so easy to implement but they have not done that (yet) which leads me to believe it always worked as they intended, just as you can have level 3 (storyline) missions going to low-sec sometimes.
Truly, it is very hard to believe that CCP would design something, implement it in a half-assed way, and then not touch it again for years.
Stick around. It's not very hard to believe at all once you see them doing it over and over (and over) again, even with things that look like they would be a 10-minute fix… kind of like this one. Neutral

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.05.31 17:37:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: 1OfMany

To be pragmatic, all CCP has to do is code a little function that checks if the offered Level 5 mission is taking place in Hi-sec, if sec. status is higher then 0.4 pick another system until it's in low-sec.

Come on, a simple sec. status check would be so easy to implement but they have not done that (yet) which leads me to believe it always worked as they intended, just as you can have level 3 (storyline) missions going to low-sec sometimes.


Truly, it is very hard to believe that CCP would design something, implement it in a half-assed way, and then not touch it again for years.


you're new here aren't you Laughing

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.05.31 17:49:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 31/05/2010 17:50:47
It seems I need to be more obvious about my sarcasm.

SARCASM MODE: ENGAGED

It is, like, totally inconceivable that CCP would implement something in a half-assed way and then leave it untouched for several years.

SARCASM MODE: DISENGAGED. NORMAL OPERATIONS RESUMED

Ashmira Wintereyes
Caldari
Free Spirits
Posted - 2010.06.01 09:53:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ashmira Wintereyes on 01/06/2010 09:53:44
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 31/05/2010 17:50:47
It seems I need to be more obvious about my sarcasm.

SARCASM MODE: ENGAGED

It is, like, totally inconceivable that CCP would implement something in a half-assed way and then leave it untouched for several years.

SARCASM MODE: DISENGAGED. NORMAL OPERATIONS RESUMED


I see where you're going , but this is too simple to stuff it under the 'bugs that never gets fixed' category ;)

If it IS a bug ... well sack the 'programmer' that implemented this and throw him out of iceland lols, or even better in the vulcano so we won't have to see his work again in the future in EVE or somewhere else... like 1ofmany says, it should not be too hard to fix this... right?

Gajana
Caldari
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:06:00 - [29]
 

CCP, as much as I dislike your decision I appreciate you made this statement about lvl5s so now this topic is totally clear for everyone.

Gajana


 

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