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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.05.28 16:43:00 - [331]
 

Don't worry. We have a CSM. CCP won an award you know.
CSM will fix it. And then they will have stern words with CCP about it.

I wouldn't want to field that call I assure you.

Epicbeardman
Posted - 2010.05.28 16:51:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Azure Moonlight
As if the fault was with us.


I had/have the opportunity to take advantage of this, I'm not. You saw a short path to success and you took it, like the guy that hauls 6 bil worth of tags in an itty, there's a good risk of getting your **** blown up.

Don't complain when it does.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2010.05.28 16:52:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
~implication that CSM can do anything~


bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.05.28 16:56:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
~implication that CSM can do anything~


bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:08:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 28/05/2010 17:49:16
Chronotis, I must say, your post surprised the hell out of me. How exactly did CCP not see this coming? The very first thought I had when I saw the design was to exploit the crap out of NPC orders - supply my mid-range good demands, maybe juggle some cheaper stuff into more expensive. You know, the usual stuff players do for every single expansion you've ever released. I saw the expansion, and assumed that this was intentional.

And you know what? If you'd done your jobs and thought it through, it would have been normal and fine. But apparently you didn't, and instead of either altering NPC prices to match the new resource requirements, or altering resource requirements to match the old NPC prices, you just stuck your heads in the sand and ignored a hole so obvious that any industrialist with Production Efficiency 4 trained could see it. And then you have the sheer chutzpah to try to make us look like the bad guys? Because when I first saw this, I didn't think "Wow, that was a mistake", I thought "Hey, this is the once-per-expansion chance to make a few billion". It wasn't a gamble any more than investing in technetium last November was a gamble. This is the market you created, you'll have to pardon me for thinking that your entire dev team could do as much analysis in the last six months as I did in three hours(two of which were spent doing data entry).

That said, if you want to correct this problem without screwing things up even worse than you already have, here's what you do. Make high-tech labs produce 10 units per cycle, not 1, drop the volume of their output to 10m3, and up the production requirement on every BPO that is priced properly to 10x what they are now. The ones that are priced improperly, up their production to whatever would be reasonable. And this time, do your damned jobs and balance it properly, don't just assume that we're all idiots who can't find your gigantic "Buy me!" signs when you put neon lights on them.

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:10:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Chronotis, I must say, your post surprised the hell out of me. How exactly did you not see this coming?

Because CCP are terrible at everything.

Tavusii
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:14:00 - [337]
 

uh brosefs... i think the massive hammer that none of you see coming is the ridiculous glut of large POS' that are being built right now. You might want to do a quick count of the people on the forums talking about this and then a quick count on the daily volume of POS'. Just sayin... I hope u didn't need those few billions for a couple of months/years.

Xianthar
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:15:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Xianthar on 28/05/2010 17:15:08
Originally by: Herschel
stuff


Many of us have been around for a long time and seen CCP fail like this before and not do anything about it.

The expansion where the NPC sell price of towers doubled overnight comes to mind.

Alexi Blue
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:16:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
And then you have the sheer chutzpah to try to make us look like the bad guys? Because when I first saw this, I didn't think "Wow, that was a mistake", I thought "Hey, this is the once-per-expansion chance to make a few billion".


Please...

You are buying NPC seeded items at a certain price, reprocessing them and earn 3 times as much for components. That's clearly reasonable and healthy for economy right? Rolling Eyes

Captain Megadeath
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:27:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Zeke Mobius


Guess we know who works for BP.


I'll give you a troll score of 2/10.

Unless you really are one of those thick yanks....lol

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:35:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Alexi Blue
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
And then you have the sheer chutzpah to try to make us look like the bad guys? Because when I first saw this, I didn't think "Wow, that was a mistake", I thought "Hey, this is the once-per-expansion chance to make a few billion".


Please...

You are buying NPC seeded items at a certain price, reprocessing them and earn 3 times as much for components. That's clearly reasonable and healthy for economy right? Rolling Eyes


Well it took CCP 2.5 days to figure out they had to figure out something.
Could had been a lot fastere but, meh, whatever.

Nice start of this expansion. What else can go wrong? Laughing

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:37:00 - [342]
 

GM Correspondence removed. Zymurgist

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:40:00 - [343]
 

Edited by: Serpents smile on 28/05/2010 17:41:48

Originally by: Grozen
Responce from ccp about the reprocessed materials(tier4 mostly)


Hi,



Sincerely,



/Me hits Grozen with a spoon and the Error:
GM correspondance should not be made public. ugh

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:41:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Grozen
GM Correspondence removed. Zymurgist



It's a trap ... ?

Maewei Balducci
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:43:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Grozen
GM Correspondence removed. Zymurgist

so we can do what we want, they don't care ?

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:43:00 - [346]
 

If its for personal issue yes but this matter involves everyone in eve i see no reason players should be kept in the dark about the game mechanics.Plus people who are still into processing will stop after seeing this.And since no other dev has responce about the punishment its ok for ppl to see whats coming for them.

Boogie Bobby
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:46:00 - [347]
 

Edited by: Boogie Bobby on 28/05/2010 17:50:31
Originally by: Grozen
GM Correspondence removed. Zymurgist


He's got it backwards. Another full week of this will make it entirely unprofitable to do PI(til the stockpiles dry up in x days/weeks/months). I should add that it would be profitable only if you value your time at 0, which a lot of miners/manufacturers do, so maybe PI will be a big afterall.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:51:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Xianthar
Originally by: Herschel
stuff


Many of us have been around for a long time and seen CCP fail like this before and not do anything about it.

The expansion where the NPC sell price of towers doubled overnight comes to mind.


Oh, I've seen CCP fail plenty of times. But it still annoys the crap out of me to see something this stupid happen.

Originally by: Alexi Blue
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
And then you have the sheer chutzpah to try to make us look like the bad guys? Because when I first saw this, I didn't think "Wow, that was a mistake", I thought "Hey, this is the once-per-expansion chance to make a few billion".


Please...

You are buying NPC seeded items at a certain price, reprocessing them and earn 3 times as much for components. That's clearly reasonable and healthy for economy right? Rolling Eyes


I didn't say it was healthy, I said it was normal. It's no worse than what happened to moon goo last patch, or speed mods three patches ago.

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:55:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 17:57:44
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 17:55:10
Its not normal because its exploiting the months of work put into this expansion.

People think CCP have it easy but its not like that. They got limited people power and they are told you have to get content on this date and they have barely enough time to fix most of the bugs.

This doesn't mean that a loophole should be exploited by the richer players to get unfair advantage and become richer.


Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:12:00 - [350]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 28/05/2010 18:17:55
Originally by: Grozen
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 17:57:44
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 17:55:10
Its not normal because its exploiting the months of work put into this expansion.

People think CCP have it easy but its not like that. They got limited people power and they are told you have to get content on this date and they have barely enough time to fix most of the bugs.

This doesn't mean that a loophole should be exploited by the richer players to get unfair advantage and become richer.






Excuse me? What about the VOLUNTEERED time of the player base with no compensation to pop on to the test server, not only to help out with bug hunting but... TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK?

Seriously, some people get mad (like I once did) that certain groups always seemed to have advance information and were able to make a quick buck at expansion launches. Well, this time PI interested ME and I jumped in; what I found was a place where I could test and simulate to my heart's content, with zero risk.

Now that knowledge has been put into full effect... sometimes we make money, sometimes we lose money. Quit crying and /testpatch your .exe

Jeez. Shocked

By the way, "richer players"? I sunk 300mil into this, which is half my wallet (and my own decision, knowing the risks). There are players who have FAR higher assets than I... It's about the price of a well fit Tier 3 battleship... your complaint about "rich get richer" is unfounded. I worked for that ISK through hard work, and diligent saving. Now that I have a chance to capitalize on it, you would deny me that just because you couldn't get on board?

Puh. Leaze. L2WallStreet.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:17:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Grozen
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 17:55:10
Its not normal because its exploiting the months of work put into this patch.

People think CCP have it easy but its not like that. They got limited people power and they are told you have to get content on this date and they have barely enough time to fix most of the bugs.

This doesn't mean that a loophole should be exploited by the richer players to get unfair advantage and become richer.


Cry me a freaking river. I don't play the market to appease your sensibilities, I do it to make money. If CCP doesn't want to give me free money, they shouldn't make such stupid mistakes.

Seriously, this isn't hard to check. One of my baseline expectations of a gaming company is that at least a significant minority of their staff will be hardcore gamers. You know, the sort of people who get into contests with their friends to see how low of a character level they can make an omnipotent D+D character at, or who do one-city challenges in Civilization, or who analyze whole Magic metagames, or who do other equivalently nonsensical things in other games. People who see a game as a set of rules, and who break those apart, see what makes it all tick, and then beat it like a rented mule until it does what they want. It's not a normal or a common mindset, but it's the mindset of the best players of any game ever made, and it's those people that form a ceiling on what you can allow to be done with your game. You have to make it fun for normal people, but you have to make it so that the nerds can't break it. And the best way to do that is to put enough nerds inside your company that they break everything while there's still time for you to fix it. Fortunately, the sort of people who want to work for gaming companies tend to be this sort of person, but it's something you need to be sure of. Otherwise, stuff like this happens.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:20:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
People who see a game as a set of rules, and who break those apart, see what makes it all tick, and then beat it like a rented mule until it does what they want.




Mooooooooooo Twisted Evil


By the way:

http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs.aspx


Look at all those Game Designer positions! Go apply Grozen! Rolling Eyes

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:22:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Grozen

People think CCP have it easy but its not like that. They got limited people power and they are told you have to get content on this date and they have barely enough time to fix most of the bugs.



Go over the publications they make. CCP has expanded in ways rather incredible, with a potential for resource allocation that is quite honestly somewhere between shocking and intruiging.

Manpower is not the problem.

Originally by: Grozen

This doesn't mean that a loophole should be exploited by the richer players to get unfair advantage and become richer.



Welcome to EVE, it's a cold and dark place. This time, it bites back.
Yes, it sucks, but let's be honest. The only difference is the volume element, which applies to anything and anyone in EVE. A guy with 100m isk can manipulate a sell order, a guy with a billion can work the orders in a station, the guy with a trillion can manipulate a region. Eve is amazing, it replicates real life dynamics quite unnervingly.

It's not a case of resources, human or otherwise. Or a case of dedication. The bottlenecks are somewhere else. But hey, it's weekend, right!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:29:00 - [354]
 

Geez, I close my eyes for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose Laughing
Ah, so that was the trick to get a dev response : take a nap.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis, Posted - 2010.05.28 14:46:00, relevant part snippages

There is indeed [...] a timing issue with our transition to planetary interaction from old to new supply routes and as can be seen, was not handled in the appropriate way.
[...]do not worry as these issues will be cleaned up and appropriate measures will be taken to ensure there will be a viable market for [[PI]]
Those of you currently gambling on profiting from this error should heed that as a warning before splashing more ISK here


I am really curious exactly HOW are they hoping to "fix" this.
They could probably salvage the profitability of PI, there are plenty of possibilities, sure, but depending on WHEN and HOW they fix it, there could very well still be a lot of ISK to be either made or at least saved before that happens, in a low-risk fashion.
You know, things like BUILDING AS MANY LARGE TOWERS AND OUTPOSTS AS POSSIBLE BEFORE THEY FIX IT, for instance.

One of the many, MANY possible solutions to "fix PI" would be to, say, increase P4 reaction output from 3 per hour to 30 per hour for the same inputs (so an x10 unit count increase), decrease P4 volume from 100m^3 to 10m^3, and adjust POS/sov build needs to about x10 of current for the rest of them (you know, all those that didn't get purchased like mad these past few days).
That would indeed "nerf" whatever stockpiles of goods people had, but for all PRACTICAL intents and purposes it would be akin to simply deleting 9/10 of all P4 materials people have in stock and would be no better than saying "we screwed up, but YOU will pay for it".

And anyway, this alone would NOT "fix" the issue of all dirt-cheap P4s that are already transformed into other POS/sov/outpost thingies, and most likely not even those "in the cooker" for the time being. They COULD also alter those, but it would be very, very painful.
It can be done, sure... but they might as well roll back the server to pre-launch-day (when nobody reprocessed stuff to get ANY P4s yet) because it would actually be LESS overall hassle... much, much less.
Yeah, sure, there never was a server rollback (AFAIK, or no noticeable one anyway), and they WOULD lose quite a bit of cash from this if they decide to reimburse people the "rolled-back-time" (to the tune of 300-400k USD, ouch, talk about expensive mistakes and PR appeasement costs), but this would be one of those times when they should at least CONSIDER the possibility of doing it. I'm not really saying they should do it, it's a horrible, last-ditch solution, but it's the first time this would actually make sense, given the scale and consequences of this thing, after pondering what else could be done instead.

RIGHT NOW, what they should have already done since yesterday (or, for that matter, what they should have done BEFORE the patch - or what they should do in the extremely unlikely case they DO decide on a rollback), is to either put a permanent freeze on POS stuff reprocessing (not cool, but a temporary freeze will not help unless you also change the reprocess amounts of those structures), or at least adjust the NPC sales price of those "exploitable" structures according to their new "value" (THIS would be the best way to do a "stopgap measure").


Either way, regardless of what CCP does, this is STILL the time to make or save some ISK, even if you could risk investing and barely getting your ISK back. Every second CCP does not apply a bandaid to the would before the "surgery" is a moment you should take full advantage of.
And with the risk of sounding even more hypocritical (I didn't participate in any of this), if CCP does something that would lower the return ISK below investment, it would be the same as saying "we screwed up, you noticed, we punished you for it" = big NONO

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:30:00 - [355]
 

Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 18:31:53
Manipulating the markets has nothing to do with this.What we had is people exploiting a mechanic that was clearly missed by ccp because they had to deliver tons of new features in one go.

I'm not defending them for not been able to see this I'm defending them because eve is the largest player driven mmo I've ever had the chance to play.Being so large its impossible for ccp to notice every lil aspect of the game.

Whats intriguing is that alot of people who noticed this bug in the test server or whatever kept quiet and never told ccp until Akita made 2posts about it.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:36:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: Grozen
What we had is people exploiting a mechanic that was clearly missed by ccp because they had to deliver tons of new features in one go.




And yet the official statement is that this is not an exploit... go figure. Read often?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:38:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Grozen
Whats intriguing is that everyone who noticed this bug or whatever kept quiet and never told ccp until Akita made 2posts about it.

The funny part of it all is that a lot of people seem to credit me for "posting about it".
In fact, I didn't even discover the bug/oversight/whatever you call it, nor did I first post details on now it's done Laughing
The only thing I really did first was to notice there are some P4s for sale on the market (and probably make the very first P4 purchase in EVE history), nothing more, nothing less.
After that, I merely organized feedback from OTHER users that posted in here and in other parts of the forum, then editorialized it with what that could mean in terms of the EVE economy.

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:39:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker
Originally by: Grozen
What we had is people exploiting a mechanic that was clearly missed by ccp because they had to deliver tons of new features in one go.




And yet the official statement is that this is not an exploit... go figure. Read often?


There will be official update and statement soon so i suggest you wait for that.I don't think its going to be pleasant to read as well.

Landy Thigg
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:40:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Grozen
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 18:31:53
Whats intriguing is that alot of people who noticed this bug in the test server or whatever kept quiet and never told ccp until Akita made 2posts about it.


Its not a bug it is what is called Arbitrage
From Wiki:
In economics and finance, arbitrage (IPA: /ˈɑrbɨtrɑːʒ/) is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets: striking a combination of matching deals that capitalize upon the imbalance, the profit being the difference between the market prices. When used by academics, an arbitrage is a transaction that involves no negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive cash flow in at least one state; in simple terms, it is a risk-free profit.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:44:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 28/05/2010 18:48:02
Originally by: Grozen
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
Originally by: Grozen
What we had is people exploiting a mechanic that was clearly missed by ccp because they had to deliver tons of new features in one go.




And yet the official statement is that this is not an exploit... go figure. Read often?


There will be official update and statement soon so i suggest you wait for that.I don't think its going to be pleasant to read as well.


I suggest you wait for it too, and quit playing CCP-JailCell B****.

To be quiet honest, I would love to sick IA on your *** for lulz and to see if you're actually a disgruntled employee, maybe who warned about the exact issue we're facing and was voted down. Perhaps some employment contract breach for breakfast, followed by some poorly concealed vent tactics for lunch, and top off the day with divulging confidential information for supper?

That'd look real nice on a termination of employment notice. Oh by the way, roll a few feet back in your cubicle and note that Chron's office is just down the hallway next to the Xerox and coffee machine.


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