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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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Bhattran
Posted - 2010.11.01 03:23:00 - [661]
 

Originally by: Amanda Eidolo

NOT SUPPORTED.



HORRIBLE IDEAS, LEAVE LEARNING SKILLS IN JUST AS THEY ARE, IF PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE IT EVE IS NOT FOR THEM

NOBODY FORCES YOU TO INVEST TIME IN LEARNING SKILLS TO 5/5 JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TRAIN RACIAL CRUISER TO 5

OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT AND WANT TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CHARACTER THEN AT SOME POINT YOU WILL SPEND THE TIME AND DO IT

THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME HIDDEN IMPLICATION IN ALL THIS THAT LEARNING SKILLS NEED TO BE TRAINED TO 5/5 AS SOON AS A CHARACTER IS CREATED WHILE DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT

WHICH IS SO DUMB IT'S NOT FUNNY, THAT IS SUPREMELY FLAWED LOGIC AND I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE

I SEE THIS THREAD, A MICROTRANSACTIONS THREAD AND A PLEX FOR REMAP THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE ALONE, WTF IS THIS CANCER CCP? DO YOU THINK I HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUBPAR AND DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY IT WORKED?

GIVE IT A REST YOU JOKERS HA HA HA HA HA


You should read the press releases CCP has said you don't matter as much as new players.

Mishkaii
Posted - 2010.11.01 05:25:00 - [662]
 

Very supported.

Simply put, the learnings are a fossil of an era long gone and place a huge burden on new players. Not only this but the arguments for keeping them often come from trolls with 3 or 4 accounts and Titans/Carriers/whatever already trained that would like to share their grief and misery about the bad old days with the world and that hate on every change that would make the game more accessible anyway.

"It sucked for me and it should suck for everyone" is not an argument, nor is the false "you dont have to train them, have fun lulz derp" choice.

Begone with them, refund skillpoints, and let the bittervets be bitter about one more thing.

Mon Dieux
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.01 09:08:00 - [663]
 

Edited by: Mon Dieux on 01/11/2010 10:53:58
Edited by: Mon Dieux on 01/11/2010 10:53:21
Supported.

This solution makes a lot of sense. People who have learned the skills already will be reimbursed accordingly by having accelerated learning to regain those sp and newer players won't feel so daunted by the really horrible choice of being stuck in a frigate for 2 months while learning them, or suffering diminished skill gain rates in the future for ignoring them.

It's already daunting enough coming in to the game as it is and making the realisation that it'll take 20 years to max out all learning and that there are players out there already with 7 years headstart on you. Also knowing that to keep pace and not lose further ground, you effectively can't play as you'd prefer for 2 months adds salt to the wound so to speak.

The system is a flawed design, it needs to change.

March rabbit
Posted - 2010.11.03 09:53:00 - [664]
 

i support topicstarter's idea.

it doesn't really matter for me how new players enjoy or don't enjoy to start Eve. And what they want: smart strategy and tactic game or counter-strike with space ships.

if CCP removes learning skills, safes my skill training speed and returns SP to me i would be happy to invest those SPs into new skills i want right now.

I haven't anything against learning skills and i spent time after calculation. Never was angry or pity about this "lost" time. Because it is element of strategy. Like any other skill (does anybody like to spend 10+ days to get +2% bonus to something??? i don't).

But if CCP makes us gift (some amount of free SP) i agree with it. because i like gifts. Very Happy

Xordel
Pilipino Corp
Posted - 2010.11.03 20:01:00 - [665]
 

Originally by: Amanda Eidolo

NOT SUPPORTED.



HORRIBLE IDEAS, LEAVE LEARNING SKILLS IN JUST AS THEY ARE, IF PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE IT EVE IS NOT FOR THEM

NOBODY FORCES YOU TO INVEST TIME IN LEARNING SKILLS TO 5/5 JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TRAIN RACIAL CRUISER TO 5

OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT AND WANT TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CHARACTER THEN AT SOME POINT YOU WILL SPEND THE TIME AND DO IT

THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME HIDDEN IMPLICATION IN ALL THIS THAT LEARNING SKILLS NEED TO BE TRAINED TO 5/5 AS SOON AS A CHARACTER IS CREATED WHILE DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT

WHICH IS SO DUMB IT'S NOT FUNNY, THAT IS SUPREMELY FLAWED LOGIC AND I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE

I SEE THIS THREAD, A MICROTRANSACTIONS THREAD AND A PLEX FOR REMAP THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE ALONE, WTF IS THIS CANCER CCP? DO YOU THINK I HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUBPAR AND DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY IT WORKED?

GIVE IT A REST YOU JOKERS HA HA HA HA HA

Hello there person with no life outside of eve. This is supposed to be a game. Dont take it seriously and whats with "if people cant handle it eve is not for them." Cmon man this is a game not some private thing only PROS should play. Its like "i suffered **** you should suffer too." Man your selfish. Whats with the nobody forces you to train learning skills 5/5. Why in the world would a person invest 15/month on a character that is sub par. Its more of a soft power(not **** related) politics thing. The right choice is so obvioius its not even a choice to begin with.

This is for improving the game widening its fanbase/supporters and giving CCP a fatter wallet so you can play the game you want with quality updates. last thing how the hell did this become a microtransaction we dont pay money to take away learning skills my GOD! your so passionate about PLEX for remaps you see it everywhere.

I support this because the learning curve is really steep as it is and i dont want to add more to that burden by forcing new people to wait it out to actually play the game. Personally eve is lightyears away from *** as a game but *** is more welcoming to the new players because the game actually allows then to do something in the game the first few days. The time where new people are all hyped up and excited. dont want to mention names and im not recruiting for ***

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.11.05 03:56:00 - [666]
 


Arctic Monkey
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.05 07:43:00 - [667]
 


SmallGang Bandit
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:07:00 - [668]
 

Originally by: Mon Dieux
... newer players won't feel so daunted by the really horrible choice of being stuck in a frigate for 2 months while learning them, or suffering diminished skill gain rates in the future for ignoring them...


Um I'm a toon with less than 48 hours of training, and I fly in a Thrasher (Destroyer, BTW) and I can be in a Drake and still have less than 900k SP, which is what, a week of training? Pretty sure you can be in something other than a frigate much sooner than two months - and sprinkle in learning skills as you want/need.

Select a "group" of skills to train with matching Primary/Secondary attributes (i.e. gunnery or spaceship command skills)
Train the matching L1 Learning skills to 2/3, remap the attributes to boost.
Train skills.

Rinse, repeat for other skills and 2nd remap (available to all new players/characters).

Don't bother training Charisma skills at all, and save yourself the hassle unless you are a mission alt/PI alt.

Don't train Tier 2 Learning skills past IV, if you train them at all.

The complaint "OMFG if I don't train all the learning skills to V then it will take me 370 days (instead of 300) to fly a carrier" is a shallow argument.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:29:00 - [669]
 

Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud on 05/11/2010 15:31:45
dunno bout u guys bt i remember in education going through and learning about the techniques of learning and how your brain facilitates thoughts into short term and long term memory, along with practical ways of being able to learn more, faster and with better recall... but then again if its good enough for REAL LIFE i guess its not good enough for CCP.

failzorz!

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:38:00 - [670]
 

Originally by: SmallGang Bandit

Um I'm a toon with less than 48 hours of training, and I fly in a Thrasher (Destroyer, BTW) and I can be in a Drake and still have less than 900k SP, which is what, a week of training? Pretty sure you can be in something other than a frigate much sooner than two months - and sprinkle in learning skills as you want/need.

Select a "group" of skills to train with matching Primary/Secondary attributes (i.e. gunnery or spaceship command skills)
Train the matching L1 Learning skills to 2/3, remap the attributes to boost.
Train skills.

Rinse, repeat for other skills and 2nd remap (available to all new players/characters).

Don't bother training Charisma skills at all, and save yourself the hassle unless you are a mission alt/PI alt.

Don't train Tier 2 Learning skills past IV, if you train them at all.

The complaint "OMFG if I don't train all the learning skills to V then it will take me 370 days (instead of 300) to fly a carrier" is a shallow argument.


Try and fly that drake into a level 3 mission with only 900 k sp.

I dare you. Wink

Brunaburh
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:56:00 - [671]
 

Originally by: Selinate
Try and fly that drake into a level 3 mission with only 900 k sp.

I dare you. Wink


Not the point - the point being it's much more than a frigate, in much less than 2 months. What is level 3 mission, anyway? Is that a PvP corp?

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.11.06 10:39:00 - [672]
 

New players can get faster into PeeVeePee = moar pvp'ing players => better for everyone.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.06 17:35:00 - [673]
 

Edited by: Selinate on 06/11/2010 17:37:41
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Selinate
Try and fly that drake into a level 3 mission with only 900 k sp.

I dare you. Wink


Not the point - the point being it's much more than a frigate, in much less than 2 months. What is level 3 mission, anyway? Is that a PvP corp?


erm... Learn more about the mission system in Eve.

And if you only pilot a drake with 900k sp... well.... a frigate pilot with 900k sp would most likely be able to pop you Laughing

Xyzibyte
Posted - 2010.11.07 00:04:00 - [674]
 

not supported... unfair simply you also want to remove all +5 imps and give ppl isk back so everyone trains equal??? omg lolz no way not supporting

DURRRHHH
Posted - 2010.11.07 02:21:00 - [675]
 

Learning skills are a pain in the ass. This fix is doable, surprisingly, in a matter of hours instead of days (might take CCP a day or two to work out all the bugs, lolololol) but Learning skills are just an overall pain in the arse. I would personally rather start being able to pew pew someone's head off at day one than spend several months training learning skills.

Nevertheless, KEEP LEARNING IMPLANTS. That is only fair, IMO.

Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
Posted - 2010.11.07 07:53:00 - [676]
 

/signed

I support the original posters idea.

Ancyker
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.07 08:49:00 - [677]
 

As a relatively new player I have this to say:

I did not like training them, but I did train them a bit. On my main (this character) and my alts that I made.

My friends that I got to join did not like training them but agreed that the eventual benefits were worth the wait.

My friends and I are in agreement that it still takes too long as a new player to not suck. As someone else somewhere else on the forum said, you basically sign up, make a skill plan and wait 4-6 months to start playing. I'm not sure what there is out there to fix this, if anything, but if CCP removes learning skills and doesn't make up for the training time increase then this is just made worse.

So I agree with the original post to a point. If learning skills are removed or made otherwise ineffectual it will not bother me as long as I get the SP back to use on other skills in some form **and** something is added to replace the benefit they provided (either more base attribs to assign or some speed bonus, maybe an implant? I don't know). I still spent time training them (my one character got them to 5/4) so I should get to keep that SP to spend on something else.

For #3 on the original post, the 10,000% faster thing is odd, I think they should just go back into the unallocated SP pool. I'm not 100% sure how that works as I wasn't around for that whole "free SP" thing, but I'm aware of its existence and it sounds about right for this.

Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2010.11.07 11:41:00 - [678]
 

I am new to this forum and I am surprised at the fervour with which this topic has been discussed. I have always viewed the learning skills as tools. I was prepared to get them to a level with which I felt the cost/benefit ratio was right for me and then got on with the job of getting other skills. I don't think that I would lose much sleep if the learning skills disappeared so long as I was compensated for the effort I originally put in. In the end it's all one to me if they go or stay.

Commandant Valkyrie
I'M ON A BOAT
Posted - 2010.11.07 14:14:00 - [679]
 

Not supported

I didn't like training them BUT the playoff is well worth it.

Azver Deroven
Amarr
Pitch Black.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.11.07 14:17:00 - [680]
 

Edited by: Azver Deroven on 07/11/2010 14:18:52
[troll] YES PLZ GIEV MAH SP NOW SO I CAN TRAINS DREAD?![/troll]

Okay, now that thats out of my system, lets begin.

I started reading this and my view was "Are they serious? Why on earth would they remove them...", but then I talked with few buddies of mine that I attempted to get to play earlier on; And suddenly I found more interest from their direction as I flashed this idea.

Bottom line is that as said before, they feel that these skills are something that 'must' be trained as the first skills in eve; Being older gamers we feel the need to min-max. But they are at the same time unwilling to pay for their subscription for several months before they can even start training skills needed to fly tacklers with me, or maybe salvager for mish running if we're in empire.

What I'm trying to say here is that even with this minor change in the skill training system I got more interest; And I'm certain it is not limited to just my friends.

Now to the method of how it should be paid back; I admit having 3,5mil (Sorry, 5-4 only.) sp gone missing would **** me off big time; But I trust this is not the way they'd do it as it would be a big ****-you note for everyone playing currently / in immediate future, and as such would highly out-weight any possible benefit. Now if it would be given us to freely redistribute then, being the jerk I am, I would gladly accept. It would give me instant access to rather few ships. That aside; I don't think anyone would mind it other than losing their SP/H advantage over newly started; But they do have severe lead already that cannot be brought down unless the newbie suddenly gains access to +5's, and the older player has +4's.

Beside I don't mind even then; As I already am proficient with my selected ships, the newbie would have to train them all to be at same line; And even then I'd have something more.

Bottom line, on contrary to my original reasoning I am for this and would like to vote my support on the condition that I am refunded the SP spent on learnings; IF this is not met whatsoever I cannot help but to feel violated. I wont make any futile threats that "I quit!", as I know damn well I wont. But still, it would make me as owner of 2 accounts very sad.

<insert sad panda face>

Pseudo Ucksth
The First One is Always Free
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.07 20:06:00 - [681]
 

I only became for this idea when they put in the floating-sp system where I could put sp where I wanted.

Now I want that 5.4m sp to put where I want.

Giev plz. YARRRR!!

Honestly though both my accounts already have 5/5 so I don't care how this ends up. I would not mind being able to max out some of the more esotetic racial skills with that sp though relatively painlessly.


I suppose I can also understand the plight of the rookie in which it is an annoying obstacle to get to the "fun" of the game, however when I started playing (BACK IN MY DAY LOL) it was seen as sort of a "it's good, do it when you want to get around to it" sort of thing.

I blame impatient older players trying to force perfection onto rookies for the current stigma that it needs to be done right away.

Xordel
Pilipino Corp
Posted - 2010.11.14 21:17:00 - [682]
 

hi guys! if you really support this proposal we have a november 2010 prioritization crowdsourcing here is the wiki list ->> LIST and here is the the thread ->> Thread and according to the wiki learning skills is at 113. Enter a list of proposals that the CSM should prioritize.

Mimiru Minahiro
Posted - 2010.11.14 22:11:00 - [683]
 

Not supported. Solution looking for a problem.

KaerBerohs
Posted - 2010.11.15 06:47:00 - [684]
 

Although I have no personal beef with learnings and I understand why they were put in (so newer players to train to use stuff faster? right? maybe I am wrong), I have to agree that this would be the best measure for all of EVE.

No, new players do *not* have to sit and train learnings for 2 weeks / a month to get things done. However, it would benefit them.

Anyone I've tried to introduce to this game I've had them make their character a month in advance and then train learnings to 5/4 before starting starting. :P

MNagy
Posted - 2010.11.15 19:48:00 - [685]
 

Why Remove them?
Make them unavailable to any toon that is younger than X amount of skill points.

The argument that new toons skill this for month 1 to month 6 is solved.
They are only available after a toon gets up to ( example: 15 million skill points ).

New players are forced to play as if they are unavailable. You play long enough you have additional skills you suddently can/have requirements for.

Removing them - Not supported.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.15 23:59:00 - [686]
 

Originally by: MNagy
Why Remove them?
Make them unavailable to any toon that is younger than X amount of skill points.

The argument that new toons skill this for month 1 to month 6 is solved.
They are only available after a toon gets up to ( example: 15 million skill points ).

New players are forced to play as if they are unavailable. You play long enough you have additional skills you suddently can/have requirements for.

Removing them - Not supported.


This is ridiculous, are you even aware of how long getting to 15 million skill points would take without learnings?

Training anything takes way too long which is why people feel forced to pick up the learnings in the first place. They should be removed, and skill training times brought down across the board. Number one reason I hear of people quitting who just started is "Training nothing for a couple weeks in order to train anything at not snail speed is ******ed".

And for the trolls spewing the "Eve is supossed to be hard lulz" garbage: It should be hard to play, not a test of endurance of who quits because of not being able to fly anything first. The way things are it is very difficult for a new player to enjoy the game, and older players have an unsumournable advantage.

This is ******ed and terrible design if CCP ever wants to get more players and make EVE a more successful game.

Get rid of this terrible design ASAP, please.

Cid SilverWing
Gallente
The Scope

Posted - 2010.11.16 00:21:00 - [687]
 

Edited by: Cid SilverWing on 16/11/2010 11:53:43
Edited by: Cid SilverWing on 16/11/2010 11:53:19
The Learning tree does, imo, alienate new players and bog down veterans alike. It's essentially 2 months for increased training speed which should have just been there in the first place.

I'm all in favor for completely removing the Learning tree altogether (but refunding the SP in the process so they can be better spent elsewhere). And as recompense, base training speed should go at the speed of as if players already had trained the entire tree to 5.

Cat IntheBox
Posted - 2010.11.16 00:25:00 - [688]
 

Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
Not supported. Solution looking for a problem.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:01:00 - [689]
 

Do this:
Almost triple base attributes (giving players a free remap to apply)
Change learning skills to be +1% attribute increase per level (learning skill too)
Change implants to be +1% too (+5 implant > +5%)

Fixed with minimal impact on current mechanics.

Pellit1
Caldari
Fatality.
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:42:00 - [690]
 

Originally by: Netacq
not supportedOne of the unique features of EVE is specialization. Learning skills are part of it.

Whole-heartedly agree.

Not supported


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