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Forum Mcforum
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:15:00 - [1]
 

This thread works in 2 different ways, firstly to put across my disappointment to ccp, secondly to let the player-base know something that I think is important to them... anyway I hope your comfortable - as the story is going to begin!

A few weeks ago i purchased a lovely T3 ship, Tanked it well and took it to deepest darkest 0.0, so i could use it for running plexes

I took it out to do a Mag site, Now the site i was running was the one with the big drone structure in the middle (which is kind of a big mash up of metal)
I was tanking the site happily and making some poor profit!
The time came for me to warp out - Out I went, or so i thought.
My ship entered warp - and started leaving (i CERTAINLY was in warp).
Then it stopped.....and things go rather bad, my ship was stuck in the large drone structure - and I mean in it - around 50% of my ship seemed caught in this.
I was unable to move in any direction - not even 0.1ms, now i dont know about you - but im partial to moving!
because i couldnt move - i couldnt warp
My cap died - slowly, so i used the charges in the hold - then slowly I died

I thought - well i will petition it - which i did, after speaking to 2 GM's they have decided not to replace my ship.....

HERES THE GOOD BIT

CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation


to me this comes as a shock, as i thought it would be needed for various factors/analysis (the exact reply was that it would cripple the server)

Another reason while i think this is important - is that I know of a lot of people who died while waiting for a grid to load, if movement/changes of direction was logged, it would be clear if you died standing still (waiting to load)

Has anything like this happened to you?

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:18:00 - [2]
 

You could have blown up the drone structure. It has lulz low hp.. Twisted Evil

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:18:00 - [3]
 

IBTL

Although loosing a T3 to those circumstances does suck.

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:21:00 - [4]
 

If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!

Forum Mcforum
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:23:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!


NoNah
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:23:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: NoNah on 19/05/2010 15:25:35
I'm not sure I understand. If you were in warp, not just in the prewarp alignment, you'd be moving at a few thousand km/s before you even had time to react and realize you were in warp. The drone structure is only a few km wide, so you must've left it by the time you know you're in warp.

If however you're just in prewarp align and the ship is unable to reach enough velocity to enter warp due to the structure being in the path, you'll be unable to move at all while the align procedure is running. You'd have to cancel it(Ctrl + Space), fly clear of the structure and then warp again. Of course this is not intuitive in the least, and causes loads of losses, but once you're familiar with basic mechanics, it will seem natural or atleast be a factor in how you roll.

Was this the actual case?

Originally by: Forum Mcforum


Another reason while i think this is important - is that I know of a lot of people who died while waiting for a grid to load, if movement/changes of direction was logged, it would be clear if you died standing still (waiting to load)

Has anything like this happened to you?


This is not as good of an idea as you might think, and horrendously easy to exploit. Warp in a scout, refrain from moving, petition the loss. Jump into a tarp, refrain from moving, petition the losses.

It's a very very tiny part of the puzzle, and in general a rather useless one.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:24:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/05/2010 15:29:42
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!


Only one thing can stop you when you are INSIDE warp. And that's a warp bubble.

I think this is appropriate.

Melor Rend
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:25:00 - [8]
 

Sorry for your loss mate. But lets be honest... The fact that CCPs customer support is worse then a pile of dog crap is nothing new. Basically the game is technically so dismal that any form of reimbursment would be totally impossible for CCP to do. So instead they let the customers suffer when they screw up. The only thing you can do is murder an icelandic kitten when it happens - or quit.

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!



That appears to be extremely unlikely in having ever happened. Once in actual warp, the bubble won't collapse until you reach destination. The warp drive makes you so uber you can fly through solid objects. ALWAYS

Gunnanmon
Gallente
PURPLE.
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:29:00 - [10]
 

Please do not question the game moderating isk out of your wallet.

Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:29:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum

HERES THE GOOD BIT

CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation




HOLY. MONKEY. BATMAN.

Are you telling us that CCP doesn't record realtime 3D positional data and collision vectors of about forty thousand active players and every single object in space around them and doesn't store every single millisecond of this ultimate replay of the whole EVE universe, and like, forever?

This is absolutely scandalous and shocking and for myself I can only say, I'm gonna sue them to bankruptcy.

NoNah
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:30:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/05/2010 15:25:39
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!


Only one thing can stop you when you are INSIDE warp. And that's a warp bubble.

I think this appropriate.


And even that's not entirely true, if you're in warp, your destination is set, if your in warp, you'll end up where the destination was when you started warping(be it a warp bubble edge you as a player didn't know of or not). There is a tiny segment where a bubble just launched can cancel your alignment, but where it's to late for a point, and it's more or less terminology wether that's in warp or not, however once you hit actual warp, nothing(bar a disconnect, and in a few days time not even that) can alter your destination.

Bfoster
Appetite 4 Destruction
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:30:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!




Had a similar situation happen to me, stuck on a gate once. Warp would not cancel so I could use my mwd, had to log to fix it. Was a low sec gate too. ugh

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Blane Xero
Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/05/2010 15:25:39
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!


Only one thing can stop you when you are INSIDE warp. And that's a warp bubble.

I think this appropriate.


And even that's not entirely true, if you're in warp, your destination is set, if your in warp, you'll end up where the destination was when you started warping(be it a warp bubble edge you as a player didn't know of or not). There is a tiny segment where a bubble just launched can cancel your alignment, but where it's to late for a point, and it's more or less terminology wether that's in warp or not, however once you hit actual warp, nothing(bar a disconnect, and in a few days time not even that) can alter your destination.


Yep. Unless someone dropped a bubble directly ontop of him, which is what i was referencing.

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:37:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: NoNah
And even that's not entirely true, if you're in warp, your destination is set, if your in warp, you'll end up where the destination was when you started warping(be it a warp bubble edge you as a player didn't know of or not). There is a tiny segment where a bubble just launched can cancel your alignment, but where it's to late for a point, and it's more or less terminology wether that's in warp or not, however once you hit actual warp, nothing(bar a disconnect, and in a few days time not even that) can alter your destination.


Yep. Unless someone dropped a bubble directly ontop of him, which is what i was referencing.



I might also add that the described scenario seems unlikely as every object everywhere have a collision detection mechanic. Meaning you reach that point, which appears to be the case as you say, then the object would have "puked" you out.

Forum Mcforum
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:39:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Forum Mcforum on 19/05/2010 15:45:10
Originally by: Dan O'Connor

I might also add that the described scenario seems unlikely as every object everywhere have a collision detection mechanic. Meaning you reach that point, which appears to be the case as you say, then the object would have "puked" you out.


not entirely true

some of the objects in missions/plex's are hollow - kind of like a tube - and you can fly through them if they have gaps etc

(edit)
not entirely hollow - but you know what i mean - kind of like a cavey type void - theres a common plex/anom that has a ruined/pirate stargate - with a big rock structure that has openings etc

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:40:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Dan O'Connor
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!



That appears to be extremely unlikely in having ever happened. Once in actual warp, the bubble won't collapse until you reach destination. The warp drive makes you so uber you can fly through solid objects. ALWAYS



They may have changed things but a few years back I was stuck on an asteroid whilst in warp. It's not that fact you are moving in warp it's more to do with hitting warp and as it goes into warp mode you get stuck. Sounds like the structure he's talking about is the incomplete drone hive and you can get stuck on that if you are too close to it.

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor

I might also add that the described scenario seems unlikely as every object everywhere have a collision detection mechanic. Meaning you reach that point, which appears to be the case as you say, then the object would have "puked" you out.


not entirely true

some of the objects in missions/plex's are hollow - kind of like a tube - and you can fly through them if they have gaps etc



You might want to read up on the collision mechanic for all objects in-game and come back.

0/10.

Geez

S'qarpium D'igil
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jo Ka
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!



That appears to be extremely unlikely in having ever happened. Once in actual warp, the bubble won't collapse until you reach destination. The warp drive makes you so uber you can fly through solid objects. ALWAYS



They may have changed things but a few years back I was stuck on an asteroid whilst in warp. It's not that fact you are moving in warp it's more to do with hitting warp and as it goes into warp mode you get stuck. Sounds like the structure he's talking about is the incomplete drone hive and you can get stuck on that if you are too close to it.


I had the same problem when my character was only a few weeks old, and CCP reimbursed me for the loss (died to a pirate in lowsec because I ship was stuck in invisible asteroid geometry). Needless to say, I learned my lesson and I always make sure I'm clear of any artifacts before initiating a warp. :)

NoNah
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:49:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: NoNah on 19/05/2010 15:53:28
Originally by: Jo Ka
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
If you indeed entered Warp, you wouldn't be stuck.

Ctrl+Space FTW!


thats correct dan, I did enter warp - and i also exited warp at the structure... I didnt cancel it!



That appears to be extremely unlikely in having ever happened. Once in actual warp, the bubble won't collapse until you reach destination. The warp drive makes you so uber you can fly through solid objects. ALWAYS



They may have changed things but a few years back I was stuck on an asteroid whilst in warp. It's not that fact you are moving in warp it's more to do with hitting warp and as it goes into warp mode you get stuck. Sounds like the structure he's talking about is the incomplete drone hive and you can get stuck on that if you are too close to it.


As mentioned, you can get stuck at anything, while in align to a warp. Whenever you hit warp it'll start aligning(if you're already have a vector towards the destination consisting of 70% or more of your max vector this will be instant). When aligned, it'll kick back and momentarily stop, this stop is short enough to hardly be noticable, after that it'll start using warp mechanics and acceleration will go much much much faster.
There is an instant between full align to it's left the field in which a bubble will stop a ship, it's however a matter of less than a second, anywhere prior to that any sort of warp scramble will stop you targeted or not, after it nothing can stop you, not even at destination.

Any time before you stop to enter warp acceleration you're still aligning, and while aligning you can cancel it by pressing ctrl + space. Once align is over, nothing can stop you. You can not warp to anything else, you cannot fly in any other direction or do anything, until you either cancel it, or enter warp. If there's a building in the way this can take litterarily hours, but it will eventually happen.

Originally by: Dan O'Connor

not entirely true

some of the objects in missions/plex's are hollow - kind of like a tube - and you can fly through them if they have gaps etc



You might want to read up on the collision mechanic for all objects in-game and come back.

0/10.

Geez


Well, you're both right. You can be entirely stationary inside a hollow asteroid, as in the LCO called Hollow asteroid. Normal asteroids are not hollow however, so you would be puked out from any of those. Not all objects are perfectly cubical or spherical in their logical figure.

Nika Dekaia
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum
CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation


to me this comes as a shock, as i thought it would be needed for various factors/analysis (the exact reply was that it would cripple the server)
Yeah, they don't. This is due to:
Originally by: GM Spiral
Hardware limitations: This would for an example include coordinates and vector in space over time. There may be at any given time several thousand players in-space, on grids with hundreds of other objects with which the pilots interact. Keeping track of all their speed, direction and position in space as it changes over time would not be very conductive to the operational status of Tranquility. It is simply not viable to attempt, since as we get above a certain size it is provably impossible to completely capture the state of a complex system such as on Tranquility on a continuous basis. This affects many different types of petitions, mostly those involving starbase force fields in some manner as well as those approaching stargates and stations.
Linkage

If you are not sure if you can permatank the incoming DPS, it's always a good thing to steer free of an structures as long as you actually can tank it.

Cibo Seidensha
Amarr
Biotronics Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:55:00 - [22]
 

I have done the same site a couple of days ago and I agree, the hitbox for the large drone structure is kind of bugged.
If you try to fly around it, you will constantly hit invisible walls. At some point I also got stuck, but managed to fly out again, by choosing a different path.
Then I decided the stupid structure was getting on my nerves and I blew it up. It has about as much HP as a cruiser rat...

So, you did lose your ship thanks to bad hitboxes, but you also failed to adapt to the situation. There were a number of easy ways out, yet you sat there waiting for your ship to blow up.

Forum Mcforum
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:58:00 - [23]
 

i think the site is guristas dumped cargo - the structure is massive - several screens.........are you sure it can be destroyed


Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:00:00 - [24]
 

Again. All you have to do is blow up the drone structure as it dies quickly. Then no moar QQ because of invisible wall. Wink

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:03:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum
HERES THE GOOD BIT

CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation


to me this comes as a shock
I got as far as 'position in space' before mentally facepalming that anyone would even suggest this. As I read on I died. Literally. I am dead.

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:07:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Forum Mcforum
This thread works in 2 different ways, firstly to put across my disappointment to ccp, secondly to let the player-base know something that I think is important to them... anyway I hope your comfortable - as the story is going to begin!

A few weeks ago i purchased a lovely T3 ship, Tanked it well and took it to deepest darkest 0.0, so i could use it for running plexes

I took it out to do a Mag site, Now the site i was running was the one with the big drone structure in the middle (which is kind of a big mash up of metal)
I was tanking the site happily and making some poor profit!
The time came for me to warp out - Out I went, or so i thought.
My ship entered warp - and started leaving (i CERTAINLY was in warp).
Then it stopped.....and things go rather bad, my ship was stuck in the large drone structure - and I mean in it - around 50% of my ship seemed caught in this.
I was unable to move in any direction - not even 0.1ms, now i dont know about you - but im partial to moving!
because i couldnt move - i couldnt warp
My cap died - slowly, so i used the charges in the hold - then slowly I died

I thought - well i will petition it - which i did, after speaking to 2 GM's they have decided not to replace my ship.....

HERES THE GOOD BIT

CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation


to me this comes as a shock, as i thought it would be needed for various factors/analysis (the exact reply was that it would cripple the server)

Another reason while i think this is important - is that I know of a lot of people who died while waiting for a grid to load, if movement/changes of direction was logged, it would be clear if you died standing still (waiting to load)

Has anything like this happened to you?


Let me start off by saying: it sucks to loose a ship yes, but.. who could say this isn't working as intended, if you were in a space-ship, and you flew into a wreckage and got stuck.. you'd be.. stuck.. sounds like the right case of events to me.

More so though: Do you realize exactly what your asking of them? You want them to log, the position, velocity and direction of every one of the 30,000+ players logged into eve at any one time, every second, as well as relative data on all of the other objects around everywhere.. so that when your ship gets stuck in an object, they could look up and go "aaaa, hmmm, yes look, he's very close to that thing" ???


Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:10:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Dan O''Connor on 19/05/2010 16:10:21
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Forum Mcforum
HERES THE GOOD BIT

CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation


to me this comes as a shock
I got as far as 'position in space' before mentally facepalming that anyone would even suggest this. As I read on I died. Literally. I am dead.



Since you're dead... Razz

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: True Sight

More so though: Do you realize exactly what your asking of them? You want them to log, the position, velocity and direction of every one of the 30,000+ players logged into eve at any one time, every second, as well as relative data on all of the other objects around everywhere.. so that when your ship gets stuck in an object, they could look up and go "aaaa, hmmm, yes look, he's very close to that thing" ???



Don't be silly! Everyone knows it would be beyond the capacity of even Google to log the position of every ship in the game at every tick of the game's internal clock.

I'm sure all he wants is to have the game log stuff "when a bug occurs".

Duh!

Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:24:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: True Sight
so that when your ship gets stuck in an object, they could look up and go "aaaa, hmmm, yes look, he's very close to that thing" ???


CCP Ban: Do you see those two Thoraxes? Down there, grid 312-665.
CCP Hammer: Yeah, hmm... Aren't those two a bit too close to each other?
CCP Ban: I thought so, like, too close.
CCP Hammer: Well anyway, push it forward to 17:45--Wait. What's that? WHAT THE... WHAT IS HE DOING TO HIM?
CCP Ban: Oh God.
CCP Hammer: I want to be alone.

Rotopod
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:25:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Angeli Domini
Originally by: Forum Mcforum

HERES THE GOOD BIT

CCP doesnt log your position in space/speed/orientation




HOLY. MONKEY. BATMAN.

Are you telling us that CCP doesn't record realtime 3D positional data and collision vectors of about forty thousand active players and every single object in space around them and doesn't store every single millisecond of this ultimate replay of the whole EVE universe, and like, forever?

This is absolutely scandalous and shocking and for myself I can only say, I'm gonna sue them to bankruptcy.



Sir, we are paying customers. If we require tens of petaflops worth of computational power to save our shinies, you had better deliver, or I shall take my fifteen dollars a month to a company that will!


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