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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.05.19 13:03:00 - [1]
 

Courier missions are getting revamped in Tyrannis. How? CCP Tallest's newest dev blog gives us the scoop.

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:13:00 - [2]
 

Since I spend a lot of time in lowsec and want to increase my standing to R&D corps (and, in some cases, the best agents are already in lowsec), this seems like a good change, albeit a small one.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:14:00 - [3]
 

Another day, another blog, yummy!

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:31:00 - [4]
 

Sounds good! ugh

MissyDark
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:43:00 - [5]
 

Problem 1: Planetary Interaction is using some of the same commodities as the courier missions currently in-game.

Um, then why did you make it use the same stuff? You like creating problems and then solving them? Just curious.

Melonar
Lunatics Anonymous
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:45:00 - [6]
 

In regards to the PI items being removed from all encounter missions, does this mean that the ancillary structures in the missions that have been dropping items won't be anymore, or is it just a change to the "retrieve item x from the bad guys" part?

I would personally find it more believable for the NPCs to have some of the PI stuff especially in some of the more industrial settings of missions. It's not unrealistic to think that some of the NPCs are doing PI as well.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: MissyDark
Problem 1: Planetary Interaction is using some of the same commodities as the courier missions currently in-game.

Um, then why did you make it use the same stuff? You like creating problems and then solving them? Just curious.

*sigh* fail at reading comprehension. They duplicated the PI stuff to non-usable new stuff with similar names. Specifically to avoid the problem you're referring to. It's not using PI stuff, just using stuff that LOOKS like PI stuff.

Very much like they did with mining missions.

Cinori Aluben
Minmatar
Gladiators of Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:46:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Cinori Aluben on 19/05/2010 14:07:30
I think you're doing a good thing here, courier missions needed a look, and you're on the right path.
That said, some quick critiques:

Problem 1) I will admit that my first thought was "Why are you using those same items in PI as were existing for courier missions then? Wouldn't you have avoided this whole thing by using different items from the start?" However, another thought there actually likes the steps that you've taken instead. But I also agree with others above that certain mission drops should include P.I. items, from the standpoint that NPCs will have harvested some of this as well. It would not be enough qty to preclude the need for P.I. at all, just enough as a neat bonus to the mission drop and depth of the mission. Yes mission farmers are to be considered here, so scale drop qty accordingly.

Problem 2) I'm glad you improved the balance and scalability, but I feel it could use another iteration or two. Perhaps level 2 using cruiser sized (or rigged/modded cargo frig e.g.-probe), and level fours requiring a skilled-up industrial pilot with cargo expanders or rigs.

Vote Cinori Aluben CSM5 2010

Fix the Little Things First! - Less than a day to vote!

www.littlethingsfirst.com


RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:50:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: RedClaws on 19/05/2010 13:57:56
So the maximum size will now always fit into 1 industrial?

It seems to me that increasing your skills won't help you much at all. Everybody can fly a frigate when they start and an industrial is only a day or 2 training.

Basically it doesn't present a goal for traders since you have reached the max you need in a few days, only standings are holding you back.

The skills you need when going from lvl 1 to lvl 2 is 0 , from lvl 2 to lvl 3 a million SP max and from lvl 3 to lvl 4 again nothing.

Wouldn't a player feel as if they accomplished more than just getting standings up if there were more benefits to having a high skill level?

For example : lvl 2 would require an expanded cruiser or multiple frigate trips and lvl 4 would require an orca or freighter or multiple trips in a fully maxed out T2 industrial?

Sure each mission would take longer but rewards could be adjusted to match.

As a sidenote I would like to mention that sending players further away also greatly reduces the chance of them being able to run multiple courier missions at a time. (managing to find the best routes should be important in getting the highest isk/h instead of just right clicking and setting destination.)

Please don't make courier missions into something that can barely be called content (more of a standings grind possibility) and make it a viable profession path you can specialize in.

TL;DR courier missions shouldn't just be about getting standings ASAP to do the next lvl agent but also about skillpoints and personal intelligence.

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:15:00 - [10]
 

TO CCP: does this mean when I do a level 4 mission which requires moving ???? gawd I hate these courier missions, I wont have to do 2-3 runs because my industrial can carry 30,000m and the missions requires 40k ? If so, good thing. If not, I hate you, your not fixing my problem.

p.s: I could cancel mission and do another one true but I hate doing that...especially when its a storyline mission which requires moving

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:18:00 - [11]
 

Did you fix the highsec NPC corp hauler spawns as well?

Enst Smath
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:22:00 - [12]
 

Do these changes affect COSMOS courier missions as well? I'm not sure whether you (CCP) consider them as "normal mission agents" or not. On one hand, if you have standings, you access them just like normal mission agents. On the other hand, they award faction standing, and are more like storyline missions.

Havok Pierce
Gallente
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:28:00 - [13]
 

Does this mean that Exotic Dancers are now "Heavy" Exotic Dancers for the missions that need them transported (thinking of the "we got some dancers for the boss's party, they're too fat, dump them at this random station" mission you'll see in lowsec/nullsec)?

More seriously, do these changes extend to nullsec courier missions?

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:29:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: RedClaws
Edited by: RedClaws on 19/05/2010 13:57:56
Basically it doesn't present a goal for traders since you have reached the max you need in a few days, only standings are holding you back.



I don't think courier missions themselves really represent much of a goal in themselves. They differ substantially from combat missions, which some players really enjoy. Courier missions really just help pilots achieve higher standings and all the benefits that go with that (R&D agents, refining percentages, jump clones, etc.)

Matalino
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:38:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 19/05/2010 14:39:26
Originally by: RedClaws
...lvl 4 would require an orca or freighter or multiple trips in a fully maxed out T2 industrial?
This would be great IF people specificly trained for running courier mission. However, there are alot of mission runners that only complete courier missions so that they can get on to combat mission. There are several NPC corps that do not have agents that offer pure combat missions. Requiring high level courier skills in addition to the high level combat skills in order to work for those corps is not going to go over very well. We do not need more reasons for people to grind missions for navy corps and ignore the other agents. Forcing level 4 courier missions into another constellation is going to be bad enough.

PS - Hopefully the ISK, LP and standings rewards will scale properly with the increased completion times.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:53:00 - [16]
 

Herein lies the death of the lvl 4 shuttle hauler macro.

CCP Jasonitas

Posted - 2010.05.19 14:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Enst Smath
Do these changes affect COSMOS courier missions as well? I'm not sure whether you (CCP) consider them as "normal mission agents" or not. On one hand, if you have standings, you access them just like normal mission agents. On the other hand, they award faction standing, and are more like storyline missions.


This change only affected those COSMOS missions that had a PI commodity as the transported item. However, there were only a few COSMOS missions that were changed as such. The quantity changes were mostly for generic courier missions, which are a different type of mission than COSMOS courier missions.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:06:00 - [18]
 

from what I have seen on Sisi the changes are mostly

all: removal of anything thats PI created(Ps love the flavor text on one item! hope it makes it live!)

Faction, Minmatar missions now take a bit longer to do and now none can be done in certian "Dead end" system by macro flying to the only system that has a jumpgate to it and back

Cant coment yet on Cargo volume on IV yet havent run them

Rosco Powers
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:07:00 - [19]
 

Is there any plan to change how the rewards for courier missions are determined? Will the new longer and heavier courier missions give increased rewards?

Callic Veratar
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:07:00 - [20]
 

I hope with the change of courier mission difficulty, there will be a corresponding change in the rewards. The only reason I ever run them (gal/min) is because it's a 1-2 system jump with a tiny amount of cargo. If it was 6-8 jumps, I'd cancel the mission instead of taking the 300k.

Something to the effect of ( (50 isk/m3 * (quantity of cargo in m3) * (number of jumps) ) + 10000 isk )

Toribo
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:10:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Toribo on 19/05/2010 15:11:10
Quote:
Level 4 courier missions: Cargo will fit into industrials, and the destination will be a neighboring constellation.


All lv4 courriers will be to another constel ? Sad
If there is no changes about the reward, sounds like a nerf.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:13:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 19/05/2010 15:18:10
Any change to the cost/reward structure to compensate for the new distance/volume increases? The only consolation to receiving several courier missions in a row from a level 3/4 agent was that the volume and distance was low... the reward in LP/ISK/standings was always crap. If I need a Itty 5 and 10 jumps to deliver a package, the reward should be something commensurate (like 500k for L3 and 1m for L4) not including bonus reward. Also, perhaps make the bonus unachievable while auto-piloting. That'd spice things up a bit.

Another curiosity: how will the affect the volumes/types for mini-arcs? I just did "A New Frontier" which is a 7 part arc and the courier volume was 1m3 and the distance was 1 jump. Sorry, but this is a mix of courier/combat, and if you cant run the courier bits in your combat ship, the arc will never get completed. The same is true for a few other arcs as well.

Edit: Another issue...
If these new extended distances require a player to enter lowsec, the chances of them doing these missions drops to ZERO without sufficient compensation. Replying saying they should use a scout is probably a poor argument as well.

Baeryn
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:27:00 - [23]
 

My gut reaction to this is "Damnit, more attacks on immersion.", and quite frankly, I still believe this. But nonetheless, an overhaul to any of the mission mechanics and especially the courier mechanics is welcome, regardless of what it does to the immersion process.

I would've thought that you could've better solved the item theft/autocompletion problem by starting to track the unique item ID of a mission item, but only if the in-character requirement of the mission was to transport a specific item. After all, if I'm a clever pilot, I should be able to stockpile items commonly in demand and complete generic courier missions faster -- and even intentionally fail the courier missions so I can steal and sell the transported goods (if it's more beneficial to me, of course).

And that brings me to my next question; why not do a (moderated) set of random items, not just PI goods? Do a SELECT from the item database for all non-faction/officer/rare (or even all) items within a certain set of parameters, and get a random value for every courier mission.

But alas, I'll have to settle for this improvement and pray that some day, someone knocks some sense into these folks who are building boxes around EVE's sandbox.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.05.19 15:43:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 19/05/2010 15:46:13
BAD CHANGES

Why?

1) Having imbalances in the game and differences between the factions are a GOOD thing to have. Levelling the playing field is good, but only to some degree. After that it is bad because everything looks alike. The differences between the factions get smaller and smaller with each and every change. That is BAD. We need DIFFERENCES in BEHAVIOUR. Soon the only difference between races and everything will be just the name. How utterly BORING! Please think about that, pretty please with a cherry on top. You are destroying unique features.

If you think one faction has too many advantages, then create some disadvantages for that faction. THAT would be the right way to balance. You are doing it wrong. You are removing all advantages and disadvantages. Yeah, that would do the balancing, sure thing, but it will result in a boring and stale universe! BAD BAD BAD.

2) The biggest problem is that of macro mission runners. And what did you do against this? Nothing. Quite the contrary. You made courier missions even more boring. Now you have always use a big ship for l4's, now you need always move to some other constellation. Booooooooooring. Yeah I know, if I don't like it, I shouldn't do it. But ... making courier missions more exciting and more interactive - instead of: accept mission, set autopilot, complete mission - would have been the right way. Not making them even more boring and cumbersome.


So yeah, I am not at all in favour of the changes.

And also: What would be wrong with people getting stuff from courier missions and using it for PI things? Just make the penalty hit big enough.

Actually you just wasted a GREAT opportunity for a whole new set of missions: moving PI stuff from the customs offices to stations or other customs offices. And imagine that accepting doing courier missions will have an impact on export/storage fees on the customs offices...

Oh well, as I said: bad changes and very unimaginative. You guys really need to think a lot more and you need to try USING and INCREASING the potential Eve has, especially the potential which emerges from having all the different mini-professions.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:30:00 - [25]
 

I wonder how much the stats you based your decisions on were skewed by the macro/farmer courrier phenomenon. The big hubs with those clusters of Q20 agents happening to be in Minmatar and Gallente space...

You could so have used this opportunity to combat macroers by making mission items valuable enough that their would be a monetary incentive to gank the bots. Instead more unsellable items (I already have 80 dolls thank you).

Frankly the "influencing the PI goods market by purposely failing mission" excuse is hogwash, it was very easily solvable by setting a proper collateral, which would also have had the effect of a stronger incentive to ransom mission items.

You fail hard on this one CCP (or you don't, and actually enjoy the macrobot money more than a clean game).

Also no info on the minimum size, will they still be able to farm their L4 Q10 agents with an uncatchable shuttle as their only tool?

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:09:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.


Have you considered applying this thought to agents and mission running in general? The LP stores are very badly balanced, and good-quality agents are hard to come by for some factions (Motsu isn't overrun for no reason...).

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:15:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/05/2010 17:15:30
Originally by: Dev Blog

Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.



So how do you explain the massive disparity in Minmatar/Gallente vs Amarr/Caldari LP stores - most obviously with Minmatar vs Amarr. Domination/Republic Fleet items is for the most part inferior to T2 while Caldari/Amarr are superior. Additionally, Amarr and Caldari have (far far far) better agent qualities than Minmatar, and usually in lower sec systems. This situation is so bad that you have to travel ~20 jumps between "high quality" Minmatar agents (read Q16/17 in 0.4/0.7) and Caldari/Amarr have up to FIVE Q20 combat agents in the same station in a 0.1. In case you aren't aware, this means that people running missions for Amarr have much better mission selection, much less travel time, much better LP generation, a much better LP store, and more useful and profitable items.

Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad.

-Liang

Ed: Hahaha hi Arkady - good to see another Minmatar loyalist out here stirring the pot. o7

vonPhil
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:17:00 - [28]
 

Why balancing courier missions between each race whereas haulers have different features according to their origin
And totaly agree with previous post WHAT ABOUT REWARD???
Do you realy think that people are crazy enough to risk a freighter or a transport ship in a 20 low sec trip for 500LP !!!!

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:26:00 - [29]
 

Also, I would like to ask whether you're making L4 courier missions impossible in low sec. Requiring more than ~10K m^3 will mean they can't be done in blockade runners... which will mean that they pretty much can't be done at all.

-Liang

Solo Player
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:28:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.


While I'd agree with the first part, quite obviously you're currently doing exactly that, else the disparity in capsuleer population we currently see cannot be explained. And, quite remarkably, it is not in the Minmatar/Gallente's favour. Therefore the real imbalance must lie elsewhere.

More importantly, I guess the real problem lies in your second assumption. Levelling out racial and regional differences will make players find other (logistical mostly) inequalities to profit from, creating those exact hubs you seek to eliminate. Instead, increase the difference between races / regions with well-balanced trade-offs much as you do with ships. That will create lots of niches and opportunities that will quickly shift along slight changes in the market, effectively preventing hubs.


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