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thorax spartan
Deserted ExPats
Posted - 2010.05.19 06:41:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: thorax spartan on 19/05/2010 08:30:15
hi there....
How long have you been playing?
over 4 years now

Have you ever been in low sec?
lots both solo and with corps

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
yes i have run a fair few missions and plex's in lowsec

If so, what is the appeal for you?
a change of pace to highsec/higher lp

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
i gota be honest here and say no.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
it can be yes, i have traveled around for days and not seen a soul but then i have been through 4 sys's and its busy as hell.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
i would have to say no, some things u gota learn for yrself and a good few eve players are to stupid/solo to care what advice others give even if its realy good sound advice.
like ship fiting etc etc

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)
now thats teh million dolla question aint it. no matter whats done one group will whine bout it wether its the piwats or carebears.
i think so far the best option would be to revamp the lowsec missions along the lines of the pirate epic arcs, making them speed boated rather than using a slowass pve fited bs/pimped ship oh doom Laughing
also i have noticed on more than a few times that all the lvl4q20 agents for every corp i can run missions for(amarr/caldari) in lowsec are concentrated around a handful of sys,which of course are then camped by pvp/piwat types to either have thier (shockhorror) alts farm them or farm the carebears/charge protection to let other farm them.
i think spreading out the agents a lil wont hurt anyone.
the scanning mech's are fine as they are tbqfh making them easyer/more simple has got way more peeps into exploration than b4 so thats a good thing in my book, and of course speed boating missions like the pirate arc's would make scannign ships in lowsec missions harder and rely on been caught at gates/stations etc more.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?

i have to say its gona take a stroke of genius to make carebears/pirates live together in lowsec. the carebears will wana run missions/plex's the pirates will wana kill maim and burn everything they catch Laughing.
as i have said along with others making the lowsec missions like the pirate arcs would help greatly as it gives the player a good chance to run the mission and still gives the pirate chances to catch/kill said player at gates etc.
the idea of pirate corps / alliences renting space to carebears to run missions is awesome and i would happly pay the fee, also watching rival piwat allience/corps trying to catch n kill each others renters would be good for the lol's.
of course all that would depend on trusting the pirate's in the first place....Wink

end rant.


thor

ninja edit:What about each of the main factions that have corps who's agent are based in lowsec have a special "lowsec" department with rewards(bpc's/implants etc) that can only be accessed via running missions for the agents there using a system based the pirate epic arc's.
speading the agents around and making the player jump 5+ sys's for increased lp/isk reward? BUT be in a ship were he/she has a chance to either run or fight i think would make more peeps move there.

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.05.19 08:26:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Cathy Drall on 19/05/2010 10:46:54
Edited by: Cathy Drall on 19/05/2010 10:46:10
How long have you been playing?
almost 4 months now

Have you ever been in low sec?
a few times; I bought some skillbooks there (by accident) and my fastest route from Minmatar to Caldari space (and back) with an industrial was through one or two lowsec systems. Nothing really happened on the way. Also been in a wormhole a few times, once I got attacked but got away, so no losses thus far.
The only time I got podded is when some corp wardecced my rookie corp and instapopped my Bantam and podded me with a Curse. In highsec.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Never.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
N/A

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
No idea, but it will depend on which system. But no risk is a always lot better than any risk.
Also depends on the ship you fly. With mining barges you just stand 0% chance, with fast frigate it's a lot better. If you fly a 3 billion PvE ship the possible reward should be incredibly good to be worth the risk or accept it.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Not really imho.

tbc ..

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.05.19 08:54:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Cathy Drall on 19/05/2010 10:50:37
What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not? Smile)
(wall of text) The point isn't so much that lowsec should be changed as such but there's some inherent game features that makes going to lowsec/nullsec never worth it:

1. Ship setup
Setup for PvP and PvE are completely different, like in most games btw. While PvE fleets just do the traditional PvE "tank/dps/healing" thing with a lot of long range setups, slow ships, specific damage and resists, no such thing exists in small gang PvP where warp disruptors, high speed,(mostly) close range weapons and webs are the main features. Because of this a.o.:
- a. PvE ships are no match as they lack the setup and specific gear for a PvP confrontation and
- b. pirates don't risk a lot vs PvE ships as they can even (micro)warp out anytime if things go wrong unsuspectedly.
Now this relative lack of risk for the pirates makes it (too) easy to attack PvE ships and (too) hard to defend, resulting in the current status quo. I think increasing that risk (like making warp disrupting works both ways) would make PvE fleets already a bit "safer"; it just increases the risk for the pirates (which is what they like after all).
I also like the aforementioned idea of making PvP-like missions, like "kill the pirate leader before he warps out/ABs away and keep the battleship jammed" which would require a PvP like setup for PvE missions which in turn would greatly increase survivability.

2. Implants
"Don't fly what you can't risk to lose" is not valid at all in highsec what implants are concerned. NPC rats don't pod you so you can safely wear expensive implants and hardwires.
In my situation, I don't want to risk my +5s which are a lot of investment for a new player. Changing to a jumpclone +3s for lowsec would defy the whole reason why I got the +5s in the first place, skilltraining already is extremely slow. What perhaps would work is that your jump clone (optionally) gets the same implants as the " original" for say 10 million extra.

3. Deadspace/faction/officer modules
I hardly see pirate ship with gear setups worth many billions (perhaps one or two, usually just t2) while PvE ships are usually geared with the best possible setup for the job. That is mainly because the risk of losing your ship in PvE is very low. After the 1st few weeks I only lost a ship in missions because I got stuck behind an object while trying to warp out. If you'd fit t2 instead of deadspace/faction/officer you'd become less efficient in PvE and might as well do highsec missions as you can run them faster with better gear so ISK/hour is actually higher even if mission rewards are a tad lower.
Why have these rare things in the game anyway as hardly anyone can afford to lose that 4 billion X-type item?

4. Profit
There's just no extra reward for missioning in lowsec so no incentive either. A few % more mission reward and bonus hardly counts compared with loot/salvage/kill bonuses.
Possible gains in lowsec really have to be improved. There could be more blueprints requiring a lot of lowsec minerals. Bigger and more profitable asteroids in lowsec systems.

Oddshrub
Minmatar
Rummets koldeste kys
Posted - 2010.05.19 09:18:00 - [64]
 

#How long have you been playing?
About a month, but about a year ago some friends of mine and I played mission runners for about 4 months before we quit.

#Have you ever been in low sec?
Yep.

#Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
I ran missions for tribal liberation force in low sec on my old char, and my new one does radar sites in his nifty little arby.

#If so, what is the appeal for you?
Money, and exploration is pretty fun.

#Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Depends on what you fly and whether or not you get blown up on your fourth or fifth site doesn't it? Nobody is ever going to fly an expensive ship for pve work in low sec because it'll get blown up sooner or later (sooner if it's a miner) and rewards from radar etc sites aren't that good if you play it safe and unload after each site.

At least I'd make more money from doing level 4 missions with my friends in high sec, even though I've sometimes found 20 million worth of stuff in one site.

#Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Maybe, I havn't been killed out there at least. But I do fly safe, and sit cloaked in safespots when local is crowded.

#Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Yes. I've asked a lot in the Danish channel for instance, and they've helped a lot.

And I certainly wish somebody would've told me radar sites despawn if you flee. :p

#What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. )
Easier access to jump clones might help get people out there before they sit comfortable in their mission ravens. But the most important thing for me would be a way to secure your goods out there so you don't have to run back to empire after each decent site out of fear of being shot in the next one or while undocking from a station.

#Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
Not really. Especially not for miners.

Esker Sheep
Posted - 2010.05.19 10:28:00 - [65]
 

How long have you been playing?

18 months or so.

Have you ever been in low sec?

Yes. I spent 8 months or so based next to a few low sec systems. I ran the gauntlet a few times. I've been in 0.0 for the last 6 months so my replies will probably reflect that.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?

Missions yes. Complexes on occasion.

If so, what is the appeal for you?

The value of the missions. In general a low sec mission paid better than a high sec one.

If not, why not?

I stopped doing complexes in the nearby lowsec systems because the local inhabitants scanned them out and waited for people to come along and try them.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?

For missions yes. For complexes no.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?

No. The risk in low sec is the same, or greater, than in 0.0. You have to assume any other pilots in system are operating under NBSI and you'd get more warning of hostiles in 0.0. The rewards in low sec are lower than 0.0.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?

Some help on use of the scanner, safe spots, and the map might help. It still wouldn't address the problem of pirates scanning out complexes and waiting for people to try and run them.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there?

Change the approach. At present the risk balance is heavily weighted towards the pirates that occupy low-sec full time.

I would change the way that CONCORD operates throughout Empire. They should operate in all systems, but with a heavier presence in higher security systems. So heavily in 1.0 to all but eliminate the possibility of ganking. As security drops CONCORD's presence could be limited to patrols through systems, providing assistance to Capsuleers who are under duress. This would allow carebears to try and accomplish things whilst CONCORD is in system and pirates weigh up the risk of engaging whilst they are.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?

I think its possible, but it would need movement on both sides. Carebears need to appreciate that there is risk, and take steps to mitigate it. Pirates need to accept that some additional risk is needed on their part.

Elle Anor
Posted - 2010.05.19 10:42:00 - [66]
 

How long have you been playing?
Over 3 years

Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Have run missions before the scanning changes, now there's almost no chance to spot the probe on D-scan before you've been pinpointed. Regularly run low sec plexes

If so, what is the appeal for you?
A little bit of risk, something different from running missions and the potential (in low sec plexes) of a good drop

If not, why not?
n/a

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
I don't think there is enough consistancy in exploration rewards, there are some exploration sites that are rarely bothered with due to the fact that a far better site could be found in the next system. Ladar and grav sites are also time consuming (and in the case of grav sites, require a specialised ship even more ill suited to low sec than a PVE mission fit) so unless you "own" the system or are guaranteed a good back up response you'll just move on.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Depends on the area. Assume everyone is out to get you and always be prepared to warp and you'll be pleasantly surprised when a lot of people are obviously just passing through.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Not really, those wanting to AFK L4s want risk-free ISK. Low sec isn't risk free but it is lower risk than commonly portrayed on the forums

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. )
Boosting reward a bit, ok a fair bit - I ran low sec L4s before I ever ran a hi sec L4 and having now run both wonder why I bothered. The relative reward (hi sec vs lo sec) isn't particularly well scaled and exploration reward is inconsistent with little point, or too much difficulty to running certain types.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
No. Pirates want to blow stuff up, carebears want to run through whatever they are doing without interruption or threat. One of these has to give. Changes to the scanning system to make it so there is a chance to spot probes without spamming D-scan every 5 secs would be a start to reducing the risk of running PVE content and giving a chance to someone to warp out when they see them. Warping everytime local +1s is possible but incredibly disruptive to the point where it's not just easier to run L4s in hi sec, it's so much easier and far more profitable that there is little point trying to do things slightly differently.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2010.05.19 11:08:00 - [67]
 

How long have you been playing?
Just a bit over 4 years. Started before RMR.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Many times, lived in 0.0 for a year actually. Pass through low-sec regularly for trading.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Nope

If not, why not?
Mostly very inconvenient. As in, limited to small ships and therefore small complexes/missions. Efficiency-wise, just not worth it (I don't consider flying anything larger than a normal cruiser to be viable in low-sec).

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
I think they are fine when it comes to the things that can actually be done there with relative safety.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Hardly. Anyone who says otherwise is looking for targets. Of course there are some areas that are quieter than others and there's not always a gate camp waiting for you, but anyone who doesn't believe there is... is dead already.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Mitigating risk is the very thing that makes low-sec not really worthwhile, IMO. It's certainly possible to hang out there and do some things without much danger, depending on how you do it, but making decent ISK isn't one of them. If you go there at all, it's for the excitement.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)
Get rid of HICs, or make them the anti-capital they were designed to be rather than the one-click-catches-all ultimate tackler for everything. I'll spare you any further ranting about that subject...

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
Doubtful. More prey = more pirates = less prey. I doubt anything will ever seriously make low-sec attractive to PvP averse players unless it becomes drastically easier to avoid PvP combat while doing business that's actually profitable. I've personally found the only thing worth doing in low-sec to be hauling through with my prowler. And that's great fun... but I wouldn't suggest for anyone to go live there.

Serenalen
Caldari
Children of Noah
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:08:00 - [68]
 

How long have you been playing?
Since August.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Twice: once because I bought something there; took a frigate to pick it up. Second time was on my way to 0.0, with a buddy.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Never.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
N/A

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Not even close.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
No. I once lost a ship in high sec during a war dec; made the mistake of trying to fetch a module solo. Five war targets were camping the gate. Webbed, scrambled, podded within a couple minutes. Chance of winning or escaping = zero. Fun = 0.

All low sec means to me is: "everyone there has a war dec against me." Why would I be interested in that?

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Low sec might be interesting, but never for missions. A good mission ship stays in dock during a war dec, and doesn't go to low sec. Period.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there?
To bring a mission ship into low sec? The risk would have to be a lot lower, and the rewards a lot higher. On the order of 10% risk, 10 times reward.
For example: (average reward per mission/site) - (probability of losing ship) x (value of ship) = is currently negative in low sec.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
First, we need to define what "make low sec better" means.

J Shaft
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:13:00 - [69]
 

How long have you been playing?
Started at the beginning - stopped, played since spring 2006, really became active about a year and a half ago.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Many times.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Not anymore.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
None.

If not, why not?
Not worth the risk.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Not by far.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Depends what you want to do there, if it is for any kind of PvE content, then the risk is very much real, and true.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Maybe it would bring in more explorers (that are not doing combat sites), or some random pvp noobcakes.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)
Inability of pirates to scan/probe pilots in mission space and warp to the same.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
There are few things that come to mind, though i think most highsec missioners would not bother no matter what:
- Make the aggressor in low sec completely lose his insurance if killed while aggression timer is on (that would give some ease of mind to people that actually can/know how to fight back).
- Answer from previous question.
- Increase mission pay and bonus.
- Make more interesting missions with ship restrictions which would force people to do them in fleets, thus increasing their chance of survival if caught by pirates.


I have been carebearing for full 4 months when i started playing EVE (i wanted to learn everything i can in theory before practicing it in reality). When i was confident i know enough there is to be known about game mechanics, i have started venturing into lowsec. It was going rather fine at first, until my 5 month old character in a drake got pawned by year and a half old character in a sacrilege (i got his shields down, but my amount of dps would take me over half an hour to break his armor tank, and that is a maybe). I didn't get discouraged at that moment, because i have earned a lot more in low sec in that 1 month than i lost.
But 10 days after that i ran into a gate camp (again in a drake) guarded by 2 ceptors and a command ship -> lost another drake.
After that point, to this day, i have only been going to lowsec in cheapest possible fitted frigates and cruisers (often with a friend or two), just for the lulz of maybe killing 1 or 2 pirates before we all die (we were going to death willingly, just wanted to kill some pirates on the way).

TL;DR
So my point is that going to lowsec for PvE is just plain dumb, and i don't think it will get better anytime soon.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:46:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
How long have you been playing?
Mmm, I think 2 years?
Originally by: Mynxee

Have you ever been in low sec?
Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?


I've done all the caldari cosmos missions - including the ones in Ihakana, probably the third pirate hub in eve after rancer and amamake afaik.
I've also done part of the amarr ones, although there the pirate population isn't as bloodthirsty or numerous.
Originally by: Mynxee
If so, what is the appeal for you?

First, I enjoyed the cosmos stories. Second, I wanted to raise my standings without too much of a grind. Third, the rewards are a lot higher than in stupid places like Motsu, if you study how standings work.
Originally by: Mynxee
Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?

No, there's no risk, and the rewards are higher. For the lazy bunch, the risk is too much, compared to the rewards...
Originally by: Mynxee
Is the risk in low sec over-stated?

Yes, in doing all I did, I have lost a whole 1 drake to pirates. Then I started scouting ahead of me. I have however lost a couple ravens to the npcs because I don't like reading the guides. Yes, npcs are in my experience more dangerous than pirates. All you need is a friendly scout, or a noobship scout on your old pc, or a second account; and something else to do if the mission you were going to do is in a camped system. Ah, and remember to be aligned to a gate/station while you mission of course.
Originally by: Mynxee
Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?

No, the lazy can't be educated. The problem is, that they're the most numerous. That said, my little corp offers incentives for learning and doing cosmos, and I try to make people get over their fear of lowsec.
Originally by: Mynxee
What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)

I'm afraid that given that what I did is obviously not a possibility for the masses - given the whines...- the easiest solution would be to make camping more difficult. I don't like it, but it would drag the lazy masses in lowsec. On the other hand, I think that also the campers belong to the lazy category though, so this could end up being a good thing to do: there would be more lazy missioners in lowsec, so more targets to probe down, less of which aligned while missioning.
Originally by: Mynxee
Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?

Frankly some playstyles deserve to be crippled: the afk campers and the afk missioners for example.
Originally by: Mynxee
Having been a low sec pirate for so long, I see low sec in a very different, far less threatening light

It's weird that a carebear like me and a pirate like you have the same opinion, reading the preview I want to accuse myself of being Mynxee's alt, but well, what can I say. Check my caldari standings.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:28:00 - [71]
 

-I have been playing for soon 4 years.

-Yes, I practically live there on my main.

-Yes, as I spend a lot of time there and as i hate high-sec it's one of the many ways i make isk with.

-read above.

-The rewards are sometimes in line with the risks, but often due to the very easy way of probing people out (which i do all the time) it is often not worth the risk in efficient ships.
Can anyone make a living there, yes i strongly think so. will it for most people be better than high sec isk wise, no.

-It strongly depends on where you are, in some cases it is over rated and in other cases severely under rated actually.

-As i'm one of those who create risk and seek risky pvp encounters i can only talk of those i have converted, in some cases it does, in some cases it fails horribly. Basically they HAVE to pvp to live there in order to get good isk, no pvp'ing and they can better stay in high sec usually isk wise.

-Unique low-sec only missions or low-sec only varieties of existing ones as well as more blitzable missions. Due to how fast it is to probe blitzing is the most viable way of missioning, not very many missions can that be done on though.
Also there's a strong need of more good low-sec agents, currently they are only in a few places, while the hubs are good for larger groups, great actually, low-sec could really need single agents spread out over the place as well to accomodate soloer's or smaller groups.
More lvl 5 agents, there's to few deeper in where it is generally safer but logistically harder.

-no, because people are greedy.

-you're welcome.

Zcary
legio immortalorum
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:17:00 - [72]
 

How long have you been playing?
-- 3 or 4 months

Have you ever been in low sec?
-- all but live there

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
-- yes, complexes

If so, what is the appeal for you?
-- More involvement than missioning, grinding out lvl4 got boring quick

If not, why not?
-- N/A

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
-- To a certain extent yes, missions requiring a BS no, plexes that can be run in a BC or smaller yes

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
-- YES, MWD + Cloak is pretty much a pass through most gatecamps

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
-- To a point but not entirely, too many people don't listen/will afk anyways

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic.
-- well being slightly harder to probe out while in a plex would be nice it is not necessary

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
-- yes, but I honestly don't believe that many if any changes are necessary ( from a plexing point of view ). I have been pirate as well as an explorer and it actually seems to be fairly balanced IF a player stays on their toes.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.05.19 17:41:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Celia Therone on 19/05/2010 17:55:13
Originally by: Mynxee
How long have you been playing?

2 years

Quote:
Have you ever been in low sec?

Quite a lot.

Quote:
Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?

I have run a fair number of missions under the old probing mechanics, mostly level 2-3 (I was pretty noobish). I ran some level 4 Khanid missions trying to fix some rep under the new system and it became clear that it was trivial for pirates to shut me down.

I still run some of the easier complexes, do quite a lot of radar, magnetometric sites and some ladar.

Quote:
If so, what is the appeal for you?

Part reward, part risk, part bloodymindedness.

Quote:
If not, why not?

The current scan mechanics are far too loaded against the victim and the RSI d-scan mechanic is hideous, especially in systems with multiple heavily defended POS. Also once you're scanned out in a mission you're pretty much screwed until downtime (or the pirate logs off and you hope he didn't share the bookmark with his friends).

Quote:
Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?

It depends. Magnetometrics are a bit disappointing, Radar are decent but some of the drops could do with some looking at (for example check out how the price of encryption books has cratered). Drone complexes suck. I tend to think that rewards are a little on the low side for the risk.

Quote:
Is the risk in low sec over-stated?

It depends on what you're doing. If you're just moving from a to b in a frigate then yes, or if you have multiple accounts with scouts. If you're trying to achieve a specific goal like complete minor serpentis annex in a domi then it's far, far too easy to get shut down. If you're shut down then you're not earning and, more importantly, not having fun. The pirate gets his satisfaction from stopping you even if he doesn't kill you.

Quote:
Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?

Maybe, I didn't see the lack of it as a big issue.

Quote:
What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there?

First, add probes as an overview category to give us a less awful d-scan.

Honestly the whole combat probe system is broken and needs to be re-done from the bottom up. From getting a warpable hit on someone in one scan after dropping probes 15 au away (granted, depends on prior work with d-scanner and 'convenient' victim location) to un-probeable ships. There needs to be some cat and mouse in it.

It has to be a lot harder to shut someone down. Low sec missions with multiple gate locations perhaps? So if you are scanned down you still have a shot at finishing the mission at a different location? For example you have to defeat the rats at 3 of these 5 locations rather than having 4 chained rooms.

Currently one pirate with a couple of guys he can call on if he finds a victim can pretty much shut down half a dozen systems or more to lone adventurers. Space should be big, it feels more like we're flying in a laundry cupboard. It takes me longer to find someone in my house than in a solar system.

Quote:
Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?

Maybe. The tools aren't there for the bears though imho. Trader/industrialists don't have any choice but to sell to the guys that kill their ships. No way to mark up your stuff or embargo pirates. No decent bounty system. No way to donate pos guns to stations or gates.

Have the billboards display how many ships are within 50km of the other side of the gate. Be able to look through a station window before un-docking. Gank outside a station, you can't dock there for a month unless you pay a large fine. Cold hard world.

WhiteGhostBear
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.05.19 19:50:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: WhiteGhostBear on 19/05/2010 19:59:56
How long have you been playing?
Over three years.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes, plenty of times, though I tend to keep myself within well known areas. I have a good idea of who the locals are, who to worry about, and who won't bother me.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
I mainly do exploration. I stopped running missions when someone entered the system and started to probe me out while I was scrammed by two rather tough rats. Got out just in time.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
Low sec exploration sites are generally better than those found in high sec, and although I can make more money doing L4s, I find this to be more fun and interesting. Low sec also tends to be less crowded, so there's a better chance of finding decent sites. There's also the aspect of danger from players which makes things more interesting. I have found that low-sec causes far more social interaction than high-sec, where you can afford to ignore everyone.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
No, they're really not. I only bother with low sec at all because I'm familiar with a few particular areas, I don't cry if I lose a ship from time to time, and it is a different experience overall.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
This really depends on where you are. Some low-sec areas are quiet enough that they're really quite safe. Other areas are plagued with gate camps, blobs, and hot drops.

Would education encourage folks to operate there?It helps. I have spent time with quite a few people giving them the basics on staying safer in low-sec: Use of the directional scanner, safe spot creation, surviving gate camps, etc. However, highly risk averse people will always be risk averse.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there?It's hard to pick just one... I'll provide three, and you can pick which one you like!

1) Gate Radius - I would like to see an increase in the radius of the gates when jumping into a system. Bumping it up to 25-30km would still allow people to camp gates, but make it more difficult to do so without overpowering the gate guns.

2) Better exploration, and more of it - The rewards for low-sec exploration are pretty poor and should be looked at. Escalations that send you 20 jumps out are too far away to bother, especially when moving through unfamiliar territory. Running sites that result in nothing at all, or Radar sites that drop a few Positron cords, or Mag sites with a few burned circuit are just... disappointing, considering the flashy reds I have to put up with.

3) Ship Probing - It should be more difficult to do. Someone gets your general bearing using the directional, drops probes at 1AU right on top of you, and 20 seconds later is in warp.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction?Absolutely. Pirates need targets. I'm willing to be a target as long as the rewards are good enough! So I lose out once in a while, no big deal, if I feel like I made a decent profit overall then a ship loss or two is just part of doing business.

I love pirates that ransom and honor the agreements.

But, the only reason I spend time in low sec at all is because I know the particular area where I roam. Unfamiliar territory makes me very uncomfortable and I am hesitant to go. As I often fly alone and I don't dual-box, I lack the bait to toss through the gate first.

It would also be nice to give low sec something unique. Right now the only unique thing about low sec is: Um... ... Still thinking. ... Hm, yeah, that's a problem.

One thing that I LIKE about low-sec is no warp bubbles. That is the primary reason I stay out of null sec. Gate camps are annoying, but gate camps with bubbles are the epitome of lame.

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:20:00 - [75]
 

I have played for over 3 years in the game. At various time i have been primarily pvp, null sec mission runner, low sec courier mission runner, and lvl 5 mission runner.
For me, the key issue with low sec's population is the risk/reward ratio and the high-sec/low-sec reward ratio. One solution would be to lower risk (buffing gate guns, buffing warp core stabilzers, etc). PVP hate this options, so I think CCP is unlikely to follow this solution.

The other way is to buff the rewards. In high sec, i can easily make 20m per hour in a ship that costs less than 200m. I will rarely if ever lose the ship. I only go to lvl 5's, low-sec courier missions, and null sec missions if the rewards are high enough. I belive that low sec missions will need to make over 50 million per hour to entice large numbers of people to pve in low sec. For Lvl 5's, i believe the rewards would at least need to be doubled. For low sec courier missions which pay a few million per mission. With the new changes, you will only be able to run maybe 5 per hour, or say 10 to 15 milion per hour, the rewards will need to be at least tripled. As to Lvl 4 combat missions in low sec, the rewards would need to be at least doubled. This is just my opinion of the lvl of rewards that will be needed.
CCP has a tendency to make an aspect of low-sec life harder, and to not increase the rewards. This slowly depopulates low sec as people move back to empire.

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:27:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Backho
Well that was why i suggested this

4) Reprogram Rat AI.
If someone NOT from the same fleet as the first person flies in, ALL RATS will go into "siege mode", they will all have a 20x damage bonus, does Omni damage, and will focus fire on the pirate. So you need a fleet dreadnaughts to tank if you want to attempt to kill lv 4 low sec mission runners.

Means if theywanna gank you with rats around, they will enter siege mode and start slaughtering them. They will need large sale operations and not soloboats.

This will make lv 4 mission running more possible.


CCP has talked about bringing in sleeper AI. If Sleeper AI was tweaked to always try to alpha the new "pirate" that warped in, this probably would be enough of a change. Many of the PVP pirate ships used to gank mission runners would fair poorly against 300 to 1000 points of rats specific damage on top of the dps that a mission runner can produce.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:41:00 - [77]
 

How long have you been playing?
Year and a half.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
I have in the past, no longer.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
It was nice to have to keep on my toes, keep the scanner open, watch local..

If not, why not?
Too much effort for not enough profit. While there are ways to minimize losses, there will always be losses missioning in low sec.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
I haven't run L5s, but I know many people do.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Yes and no. Lots of high sec people think low sec is loaded to the brim with pirates. While most people there are into pvp rather than pve, teh population is low.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
No. The reason people mission in high sec is to make isk for other ventures. Its a means to an end, not the end itself.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)
Leave mission in high sec, but boosting exploration would be awesome.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
I haven't been around that long, but my understanding was at some point, there was huge competition for the minerals in low sec, and mining corps would often have protective pvp wings. I would like to see a return of that. I think the answer would be to have certain ores that are only found in low sec. I also liked the "Corruption" expansion proposed some time ago. Drugs, crimimality. When walking in station arrives, make in station gambling available. Oh, and lots of drugs.

Kuso Tabeteshine
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:52:00 - [78]
 

I think lowsec was designed to be sort of a buffer zone between high and nullsec. But the reality is to a typical carebear, lowsec is no less dangerous than nullsec. What's the difference? Get my 1bil+ ship blown up in lowsec or nullsec, doesn't matter. In fact, it's more dangerous because PVPers go there to hunt defenseless carebears. At least that's one carebear's perception (mine).

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.19 21:10:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
How long have you been playing?


4 years

Quote:
Have you ever been in low sec?


For 4 years

Quote:
Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?


Yes, both

Quote:
If so, what is the appeal for you?


I can't go to high sec - otherwise I would. It lets you run super pimped ships that with absolutely no risk whatsoever.

Quote:
Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?


No.

Quote:
Is the risk in low sec over-stated?


Yes and no. It's not so bad if you are That Thing That Goes Bump In The Night - but that isn't to say even that is risk free. I'd say it's not uncommon to be unable to run missions about half the time in a pocket that I pretty much "own".

Quote:
Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?


Of course it would mitigate it, but it wouldn't mitigate it enough to make a difference. The reward difference between 0.5 and 0.4 space is less than 10%, yet the risk is arbitrarily higher - and might even be a net loss once you consider the non-stop pimped grinding you can do in a 0.5. Of course, the risk is the same in a 0.1 system and the difference between 0.5 and 0.1 is actually noticeable...

Quote:
What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)


I would make all low sec have the rewards of 0.1. There isn't a real risk difference between 0.1 and 0.4, so there shouldn't be a reward difference either.

Quote:
Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?


No, because the pirate lifestyle is very tenuous already. Anything that brings "carebears" in to low sec will by definition bring about coalitions of blobtastic carebears. It will almost certainly end up being like Providence at first - raided for lulz... but the problem is that the pirates wouldn't really have anywhere to go. It would definitely make large pirate and anti-pirate alliances mandatory.

-Liang

Aralieus
Amarr
Shadowbane Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.20 03:08:00 - [80]
 

How long have you been playing?
1.4 years


Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes, alot

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
No, mostly exploration

If so, what is the appeal for you?
N/A

If not, why not?

I have seen far to many ppl lose PVE ships to PVP ships, its not really that hard to figure out your going to die to a ship who can exploit every last one of your weak points. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
This is very situational, for me yes and no, sometimes I have to travel thru go 6-7 systems while 2-3 are gate camped and not find a mag/radar site. Sometimes I have 3 sites I can farm but local is completely full making it very risky to even attempt. Other times I am alone for hours thru many many systems and still not find a explo site. Sometimes I have I get lucky and have 2-3 sites in one system that I can peacefully finish w/out anyone in local. What I find that sucks hard is finding a site, warp to hit, kill rats, start salvaging, hacking or analyzing the cans then I see combat probes on scan and I know there looking for me but I really want to finish this site cause its the first I got in hours of searching so I hang around till the last minute till they warp in cause if I leave the site will despawn and I narrowly miss destruction.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Depends, if you know what your doing the risk becomes significantly low. However if your in a clumsy PVE fitted battleship your pretty much just asking to get popped. I understand some ppl argue watching local and hitting d-scan every 5 secs will help reduce the risk but this puts your ship at risk to the mission rats because its not taking your full attention and you could accidentally pop a trigger and get full room aggro thus leading to your tank being cracked and you loosing your ship anyway. And with all the time you have your attention on d-scan and local your not focused on the mission for maximum efficiency thus lowering your ISK/Hour rate so your better off in high sec running them comfortably maintaining the same ISK/Hour.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
heh, not really

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there?
Become unscannable while in a agent given mission and all explorations sites. Increase the bounties and LP rewards. Increase spawn rate of all exploration sites per system. 2-3 per system but of lower quality seems fair to me. Maybe get a really good one every 2-3 systems. If you are not in fleet or the mission was not given to you and you and/or your fleet warps in mission/exploration site, all NPC's will consider you/your fleet more of a threat and primary you. They will hit you for massive damage, kill your drones and use whatever E-War that faction uses with extreme prejudice. You are the one fitted for pvp, so a warp scrambler will be considered the most dangerous thing those rats have ever seen in thier entire existence Wink

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either play style to extinction? Why or why not?
I see it like this(and yes I have been a pirate before, also a CB at some point so I can see both POV'S) if you are a wolf and you kill all the lamb that are around don't f'kn cry when you starve to death. I am not defending pirates or CB's I am just saying there needs to be some balance. Pirates, PvP'rs need viable targets, CB's need to have some reason to come to low-sec with some type of control of the situation w/out feeling completely helpless and hopeless on making a profit in low-sec. See above response.

Gibbetto
Posted - 2010.05.20 03:23:00 - [81]
 

I have been playing for several years and in that time I have been to low sec. I have even done missions there although it is not very appealing.

I don't really like gate camps and even though the risk of mission is often overstated, the gate camps getting in and out are often a pain.

Learning how to avoid the gank does not really make low sec any more appealing.

I think low sec is working. It allows loose coalitions of players to control small pockets of space. Don't kid yourself. Many of residents of low sec PVE in the space they occupy. They also defend it.

The number one change would be to make low sec planets the best planets in game. I don't want planet mining to be the highest income in the game, but just put the best planets out in low sec - not 0.0.

This will encourage small industrial corporations to risk entry, just as it did with wormholes. Then, put DUST in low sec.

Any change to low-sec should not be about nerfs, it is about buffs. Take an under-utilized class of ship and buff it for low sec. Create NEW missions, exploration, etc. around this. Include the possibility of PVP in mission DESIGN! Put the best planets and the bulk of dust conflict on these fighting worlds.

Then leave the high sec to miners and afk missioners, leave 0.0 to the zillion sp titans, and leave low sec to gangsters fighting on land ,sea, air, and space.

Asruv'ynn
GeoCorp.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.20 06:25:00 - [82]
 

How long have you been playing?
For over a year.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes, and quite frequently. Most of my time would probably be within the confines of lowsec.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
I run missions, but rarely complexes.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
The appeal is simply play by my own means. Nothing really keeps me from playing here except myself.

If not, why not?
If I want to run some nice l3s and l4s in hisec, it is simply done out of convenience. No one bothers me and I've made good money an hour.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Absolutely not. I've found hisec mission running to be less of a hassle, thus more profitable. As far as complexes are concerned, I can rat and do complexes within nullsec with no problem.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Sort of. I've found it really comes down to what system(s) you fly through. Really, the reason is quite simply pirates and in a small way, the scale of mission quality/loot to security status and the ore available. The local ores are pretty much the same acquired in hisec which gives no incentive to industrialists to move into deeper space to work. If you want to change something about risk vs reward in lowsec thats it. You need more reason to operate there aside from flat out killing each other which is why it's a terrible place to fly in the first place.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
No. I've found that education isn't enough. Experience is. You could talk their head off all day and have little skirmishes in hisec about what to expect in lowsec and how different it really is from everyone's mindset, but it will not ever compare to the raw experience of just actually flying there. Then there are people who either don't like PVP or aren't interested in going back in for seconds after being pulverized by someone.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile
The lack of pirates and greater reward for my operations. Mostly the greater rewards thing though. If you get to experience lowsec as often as someone like myself does, then it really isn't as hostile except for an occasional annoying gate camp in some armpit of a system. As you can probably tell, I hate pirates, but to be honest, I see so little of them it really isn't so much of a problem. I think what I despise most about pirates is the tactics they use and in particular, gate camping. If gate camping was removed I wouldn't have so much of a problem with them because then they actually have to work at trying to get me and then ensues that awesome, heart-pumping joy many people get when they pvp, or have sex. Promise them riches and they will come.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
Hard to tell, but first really there needs to be bigger reward for non-pirates that have the potential to operate there. A simple analogy is that of a wolf and a deer (or any other simple predator to prey). Predators can never out-number the prey because they'll starve to death. At the moment, that's the way I believe it is for pirates and they're growing tired of their 'fun' and thus complaining about it on the forums daily. There's already little food to go around for the deer, so the wolves will dwindle in numbers, yet never drop off entirely. What can be said is that there should never be more predators than prey because no one will ever want to go there which is exactly what we have currently.

kasai zenpachi
Posted - 2010.05.20 06:57:00 - [83]
 

-How long have you been playing?

for about 2 years now

-Have you ever been in low sec?

yes low sec and 0.0

-Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?

complexes sometimes

-If so, what is the appeal for you?

change from level 4

-If not, why not?

N/A

-Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?

in my opinion NOT AT ALL

-Is the risk in low sec over-stated?

Yes and no, low sec in my opinion is always risky, is just the level of risk that changes. the mission hubs are mostly flooded with pirates so i don't even try it, so if you want to make money you have to go deep and stay away from any high traffic areas, the most dangerous areas in my opinion are Boundaries between high and low sec and low sec to 0.0 and again any mission areas specially specially faction pirate mission areas, those to me are death traps. But deep in low sec is mostly empty which is nice but unlike 0.0 you don't have a security channel to warned you about incoming danger so you always need to keep an eye on local and stay alert, then you have to search out the complexes in my case. I have being in system where their are camped and completely full then just as fast you jump into a system without a single soul for hours alone to do what you please.

if you are not careful you will wake up in a station hoping and praying you upgraded your clone!

-Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?

I actually think it can, you can never say no to good advice that is coming from people who have actually done it and lived it. like how do pirates hunt you down so quick, learned what to do and not to do. Is what people don't know that really scares them and keeps them from trying, so education will get people to at least try it.

-What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)

In my opinion their is not one fix that needs to happen, but this would be a start. firstly increase the payout per mission, how much? I really don't know as it will affect the markets so let ccp deal with that part. if you are not going to do that then at least think about spreading out AND make more mission high quality mission areas, that should spread out the pirates and at least give us a chance, the pirates get their targets to shoot as they want and we have at least a fighting chance of not walking to system that are constantly camped ( sound familiar ), another idea is to make the missions so you can use fast ships to complete instead of heavy dps / tanking ships, this idea is being said a lot before and is a great idea, if i could complete the missions as an example in a cruiser or BS that makes a big difference and should increase the number of people who can do them.
the way low sec is setup right know is one sided, the pirate side. I don't mind losing ships as long as I at least have a shot to get out in one piece!

-Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?

LOL NO. those the zebra sleep with the lions! all you can do is give the zebra a chance to make it or at least a head start, not to much to not **** off the lion. Don't dumb it down! just give us a chance. But i like the danger which in a way is what makes low sec appealing to me sometimes, the danger behind every jump just what is on the other side waiting for me that's exciting!

1OfMany
Posted - 2010.05.20 09:47:00 - [84]
 

I live for 40% in lowsec, rest of the time i am either caught up in wormholes or hi-sec.

I do missions sometimes in lo-sec but only under certain conditions (when the local pirate faction i have good standings with is around)

0.0 i've been for a bit while not being part of any 0.0 powerblock, stay there was pretty easy and even the move to 0.0 NPC space later on was not that difficult, to be quite frankly 0.0 is easier then lo-sec for the biggest part, more so when you's part of the controlling alliance.

Some of the changes one might consider are the following:

Drop all the warpgates in missions, give the missioner a new warp spot once the requirements for a room are met. When a ship's been probed out, the warpin of the pirates/gankers will result as any other deadspace mission aka they get at the first pocket/gate with a little twist, have the warp in mechanism change over time (depending on difficulty of the next pocket) to get the following:

* Player X warps to the mission startpoint
* Recieves either a new spot to warp to, or has to battle a few ships before that, we call this the 1st warpgate without a gate.
* When conditions are met, the agent transfers the coordinates of the second pocket, or pick them up from the defending ships.
* X now warps to the second pocket.
* Pirate Y scans out X his/her ship and warps to it, all he finds is empty space or some wrecks OR the player when he's really fast.
* After some time, depending on the pocket difficulty, the pocket's degraded, so if X was scanned out in pocket B, he can then warp directly to pocket B
* If X was not fast enough clearing pocket B, he has the chance that Y comes in and pays a visit (read X is AFKing), else he met conditions and recieved the location of pocket 3 or end of mission.

This way we do not have to bother about making missioning unscannable, pirates still have a chance to get a missioner, but a bit harder, and the missioner actually have to DO something in the mission to complete it within time else he knows he might have to pay the price by being caught.

Both sides hand in some of their easy gaming. Maybe as compensation increase the chance of a faction rat entering lowsec missions with the same small chance they have now to drop some sort of faction loot. While the chances are slim, there might be some additional profit for the ones taking the risk.

About mining, don't get me started.... even after scouting out numerous systems, when mining in lowsec it's almost impossible to get multiple cycles on your lasers before you have to do an emergency warpout because a roaming gang comes by.

When you are unlucky, you're even warpscrambled by the local rats and you are a sitting duck in your ninja-miner.....

The appeal for me in lowsec? i guess the complexes if it was not for them i probably would not be there alot.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.05.20 10:23:00 - [85]
 

I am reading the responses so far with great interest. There are some intriguing suggestions offered and useful insights being shared. Been thinking about the most useful way to aggregate responses to the questions and summarize some of the ideas. I may try to do that this weekend in a blog post. Keep the responses coming...the more opinions, the better.


Hanneshannes
Posted - 2010.05.20 10:59:00 - [86]
 

One of the main problems imo is that the two (PvE and PvP) require completely different fittings. If I were able to defend myself and do missions in the same setup, I'd probably go to lowsec just for thrills but you can't.

As soon as you get caught in a PvE setup, you are basically screwed. Imo, missions and NPCs in general need to be changed to make a fight against a single NPC a bit of a challenge, reduce numbers of NPCs in missions (it makes no sense from an RP PoV either that we kill hundreds of millions of people every day and anyone still flies normal ships).

But yeah, wishfull thinking I guess as this will never happen...

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.05.20 11:50:00 - [87]
 

How long have you been playing?
2.5 years

Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes, lived there exclusively as an outlaw for 1.5 years, also spent my first month playing there (agent grind).

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Yes, my main source of income currently is soloing lvl5's.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
Lvl5 agents and by missioning in low sec I can attack targets of opportunity by simply docking up and grabbing a different ship. In some cases I run the missions in a pvp ship so I'm ready to go instantly. I'm also very active in the amarr militia and coming from high sec is such a hassle, easier to just live in a war zone.

If not, why not?
N/A

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Sort of but to run normal lvl4/5 missions there you must secure your home system. This can be done easily enough with a medium sized corp as long as it has 4-5 members online at any given time. The problem however is doing so only appeals to those that really want to pvp in addition to pve. So securing the system is an end in of itself, not just a means to an end. The ability to run missions there safely is more of a bonus.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
If you're into afk missioning and have no friends then it's not. You have to dominate your home system, else nasty players like me will come and take your stuffs. If you are prepared to defend yourself however and use that squishy thing between your ears some, it's pretty safe doing pve.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
Somewhat. You have to pay attention and use your head. If you do that you're nearly completely safe, I haven't lost a single pve ship to players in years. But most players are opposed to or incapable of thinking tactically.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. Smile)
I don't think there is one single change but there are a few that would do it. First off, sentry gun fire needs to be scaled with the number and size of ships. Frigates can't gate camp as is but BS's just laugh at them. Until that changes, gate camps will remain at every high/low sec border and that's a deal breaker for most PvE'rs.

Increasing rewards from missions would help greatly. As is, most of the reward from lvl4's is isk from bounties. The solution is to scale bounty payments with the 3 distinct security zones (high/low/null). This change should also be applied to mission payouts as 0.4 sec is every bit as dangerous as 0.1, the difference in LP rewards is not justified between the two.

As a final issue, probing out missioners is too easy. I know because I do it at every possible opportunity. It should be made a bit more time consuming and require real dedication in terms of ship equipment, implants, skill training and actual time doing it. I would support having missions/plex's having a masking effect on player ships that makes them significantly harder to probe. I'm talking about something along the lines of +500% deviation and 1/2-1/4th signature strength. As a balancing act I would also dampen (not remove) ECCM's effect on probing mechanics however. It should be possible to probe basically everything, but that doesn't mean it should be easy.Wink

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
Yes, the two are not mutually exclusive. Pirates live in high sec too in the form of war dec'rs and suicide gankers. The victims are generally upset, but they don't quite the game or move to null sec because of it. It's balanced there, the changes I gave above should help make low sec a bit more balanced though still dangerous.

Casmy Blue
Gallente
Power and Water
Posted - 2010.05.20 12:49:00 - [88]
 

How long have you been playing?
Since mid-2005.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Frequently.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
No.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
-

If not, why not?
The risk vs. reward is too low.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
No.

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
No.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
No.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there? (Be realistic! "Kick the pirates out!" is humorous but not realistic. )
It's simple math. I lose a ship in PvE maybe once every 3 months. It takes me a week or two of missioning to make the cost of that ship. If I were to go into low-sec, I'd lose a ship a lot more often than once every 3 months. So, if you want to up my risk vs. reward, you're going to have to give me a lot more money to even give it a shot. If I'm three times more likely to lose a ship in low-sec, I won't go there unless the rewards are better than 3 times higher - if they weren't, why would I leave high-sec?

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
Not really. We're not going to go into low-sec because we don't need to.

regti onlat
Posted - 2010.05.20 13:14:00 - [89]
 

How long have you been playing?
A year and a half.

Have you ever been in low sec?
Yes, running missions, running gangs with mates.

Do you run missions or complexes in low sec?
Only a couple of times.

If so, what is the appeal for you?
Because I got bored with high-sec missions and want some adrenaline.

Are rewards in low sec in line with the risk?
Nope

Is the risk in low sec over-stated?
Well, it depend on which system you are talking about.

Would education from savvy players about how to mitigate risk in low sec encourage folks who didn't just want to AFK L4's to operate there?
I dont think so, ppl are doing L4 because they provide a risk-free income. If they want lols and tears they would go to low-sec in a PvP ship instead of a mission-running ship. What a sane person would do at the moment is to using mission-runing ships in high-sec and PvP ship in low-sec, not the other way round.

What is the number one change to low sec that would cause you to considering doing missions and complexes there?
I dont think missions in low-sec is realistic in the first place. Missioning has always been treated as a high-sec risk-free activity. Instead, give low-sec a unique resource/aspect that missioning cannot provide, and people will actually fight over it despite the risk.

Do you believe it is possible to make low sec changes that would allow both pirates and carebears to co-exist profitably without crippling either's play style to extinction? Why or why not?
I think carebears dosent belong to low-sec. EvE has a high-sec and a low-sec so that it suits different people. I think lvl4 missions needs a slight nerf to about 80% of their current rewards, but unfortunately that wont go down well with a lot of players, and that will not boost low-sec significantly. Just like I've said, low-sec need something unique and different.

All discussion and ideas on this topic are welcome. Having been a low sec pirate for so long, I see low sec in a very different, far less threatening light than high sec folks. I am therefore unable to view it from their perspective; the point of this thread is to understand that better. I believe such understanding is critical--particularly if I get elected to CSM5--to being able to assess low sec proposals in Assembly Hall in the context of the overall game and champion those which would help push low sec in the direction I envision.
I concur. If you are in a pvp-fitted ship, with some friends around, then low-sec isnt that scary at all, in fact, you are the hunter, and most other travellers will be scared of you. The problem is, that it will be a totally different story if you are not in a PvP-fitted ship. Most people dont mind being the hunter, but most people dont want to be the hunted.

Thanks in advance for your responses.
You're welcome and best of luck.

1OfMany
Posted - 2010.05.20 13:29:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Hanneshannes
One of the main problems imo is that the two (PvE and PvP) require completely different fittings. If I were able to defend myself and do missions in the same setup, I'd probably go to lowsec just for thrills but you can't.

As soon as you get caught in a PvE setup, you are basically screwed. Imo, missions and NPCs in general need to be changed to make a fight against a single NPC a bit of a challenge, reduce numbers of NPCs in missions (it makes no sense from an RP PoV either that we kill hundreds of millions of people every day and anyone still flies normal ships).

But yeah, wishfull thinking I guess as this will never happen...


That would help sure.... against the solo pirates, however pirates usually roam lowsec in bigger gangs then you and your dual box alt or even corpmates resulting in your death anyhow no matter if you can fit your ships for PvP and is still usefull in missions.

I think the bottom line is that CCP/we must find a common ground where survivability in lowsec is balanced regardless of Risk vs Rewards as well as loss.

let's call them carebears for a minute.

Carebears tend to have expensive implants like +5's, low/high crystal/slaves etc whatever is needed for completing missions faster. Pirates normally have easy access to Jump Clones in the form of Cloning facilities like the rorq has.

After some pretty steep grinding, a mission runner could obtain a JC in lowsec if he wants, but he might loose days of training when he's missioning in lowsec if he uses a JC where the pirates hardly use any implants as they tend to be jumping clones more often then anyone else i asume (except for the really wealthy pirates perhaps)

Maybe looking into the JC requirements and penalties for using JC could help a bit so people use JC more often and do lowsec missioning in less expensive setups (everyone knows what a Full +5 set of implants is worth) and ships.

About Drone AI for missions, well if you can call it AI, it will take a couple of days for the good capsuleers to figure out a way around that AI so they can still deal with the player first, the AI didnt stop ganking in WH combat sites and it won't stop ganking in missions.


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