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Amataras
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.06 18:24:00 - [1]
 

With the establishing of a POS in HED by XT and the subsequent claims by CA that it would amount to nothing, it got me thinking about the actual tactical advantages of the POS. Contrary to what some CA seem to believe, I think the POS has its purposes:

1. Regrouping post: a safe place to fall back to and regroup. If you build nearer enemy territory you have somewhere to go and prepare your next strike quicker than retreating home.

2. Ship hangar: fill the POS' bays with ships so that you can grab a new ship quicker than going all the way home and return to the fight fully armed and ready for battle.

3. Staging area: from a POS you can go out in a frig/interceptor and raid enemy logistics before falling back to a safe haven.

4. Defense: with regard to point 2, if you have a well stocked POS at the entrance to your space or nearby you can have a supply of battleships ready for deployment and you don't have to move your own one across 20 systems to engage the enemy fleet.

A lot of people say POS are over-powered. Perhaps you are taking the wrong approach, POS aren't designed to be ganked - the best way to beat them is to starve their supply lines. Taking out the next indie bringing in supplies and then waiting for the POS to run out is much easier than sending in a 50 battleship fleet and trying to do things the impatient way.

With these reasons I think XETIC will do well in HED. Though they get hassled for being "carebears", their ability to supply minerals and resources to their POS in HED will grant them large tactical superiority over CA in the immediate surrounding systems. The only problem is for them to exploit this advantage properly.

What does everyone think? Am I on the right track?

Nestor Ne'Arthe
Amarr
Firebird Squadron
Posted - 2004.12.06 18:34:00 - [2]
 

Yes, you are :)

Chucky
Caldari
HEAVEN'S DEATH DEALER'S
V.I.R.A.L.
Posted - 2004.12.06 18:41:00 - [3]
 

And I thought they were just for decorationRazz

Jacmert Corra'Halcyon
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2004.12.06 18:45:00 - [4]
 

Yes, but you'd better be able to defend all those resources that you've sunk into a POS.

With that being said... Come on finals, END!

Amataras
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.06 18:48:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Amataras on 06/12/2004 18:51:49
Originally by: Chucky
And I thought they were just for decorationRazz


It's what some CA seem to believe from their response to XT in HED Razz

I believe the term was "expensive safe-spot" Razz

The Altmeister
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.12.06 19:04:00 - [6]
 

I think that Xif would have been better staging one in JLO or N7, that way you have an invulnerable safespot where you can launch raids against the CA's miners. In HED you are only one jump from Empire and being a 'core' system CA are likely to have a lot of resource nearby to gank ships travelling to it


Scythmar
Caldari
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2004.12.06 19:47:00 - [7]
 

no

Sabahl
Minmatar
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2004.12.06 20:45:00 - [8]
 

Good post, Amataras. I'll give it the response it deserves.

The knee-jerk reaction is to say OMGWTFARGLE whenever a POS pops up. But the fact is that, until such a time as system ownership has been implemented, they serve two purposes only. 1) A tactical operations center and 2) A raw material mining center.

With that in mind, lets look at your post.

Originally by: Amataras
With the establishing of a POS in HED by XT and the subsequent claims by CA that it would amount to nothing, it got me thinking about the actual tactical advantages of the POS. Contrary to what some CA seem to believe, I think the POS has its purposes:

1. Regrouping post: a safe place to fall back to and regroup. If you build nearer enemy territory you have somewhere to go and prepare your next strike quicker than retreating home.


Not quite. In the HED case the POS is only a couple of jumps from Agil, an NPC station system, which amounts to the same thing. Also, generally speaking you tend to find that after a large fleet engagement everyone skulks off to their respective holes in the ground and won't engage immediately anyway so the usefulness of a POS for instant restructuring of a fleet is questionable.

Originally by: Amataras
2. Ship hangar: fill the POS' bays with ships so that you can grab a new ship quicker than going all the way home and return to the fight fully armed and ready for battle.


Again, Agil is only a couple of jumps away so what's the point? Sure, if the fight is in the same system then a new ship can be grabbed immediately, but what is likely to happen is that CA will merely stage battles in the next 0.0 system along. We'll have some massive gate-standoffs and anyone who loses a ship will find that they'll have to fly through a firefight to get the the gate, jump, grab a new ship and then jump back into the middle of a firefight again. I don't think many people will want to do that once they've been podded the first time in a fight.

Originally by: Amataras
3. Staging area: from a POS you can go out in a frig/interceptor and raid enemy logistics before falling back to a safe haven.


Agil station, again. Also, safe spots are still safe. A good safe spot will take an absolute minimum of 20 minutes to crack even with ship scanner probes. A good interceptor fleet does not hold still in any one location for that long unless they are gate camping.

Originally by: Amataras
4. Defense: with regard to point 2, if you have a well stocked POS at the entrance to your space or nearby you can have a supply of battleships ready for deployment and you don't have to move your own one across 20 systems to engage the enemy fleet.


I think only the owner corporation can have their own corporate hangar, in which case all the other members of the alliance will have to leave their battleships floating in space. Meanwhile, the POS can only be configured to actively shoot at designated targets. You can't set it to hostile mode to shoot everyone except those deemed friendly. So if you leave your battleship floating in space behind the forcefield, the first newbie alt who flies in could simply hop into your battleship and scarper.

Originally by: Amataras
A lot of people say POS are over-powered. Perhaps you are taking the wrong approach, POS aren't designed to be ganked - the best way to beat them is to starve their supply lines. Taking out the next indie bringing in supplies and then waiting for the POS to run out is much easier than sending in a 50 battleship fleet and trying to do things the impatient way.

With these reasons I think XETIC will do well in HED. Though they get hassled for being "carebears", their ability to supply minerals and resources to their POS in HED will grant them large tactical superiority over CA in the immediate surrounding systems. The only problem is for them to exploit this advantage properly.

What does everyone think? Am I on the right track?


Well, if my counter-arguments to yours are correct I'd have to say that the HED station has only one useful benefit for Xetic : it really puts the wind up CA. But after the discussion threads such as this, that psychological advantage is going to rapidly deflate, leaving nothing but an expensive load of hardware floating in space.

I guess the first demonstration of this was in a fleet battle that took place in HED less than 24 hours after the POS was errected. I wasn't actually there but I believe that, with comparable forces, CA won the fight. If the POS was such a major strategic advantage surely the outcome would have been different?

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2004.12.06 21:23:00 - [9]
 

with this xetc - ca war will it b very handy for the xetics to have a safer, much safer station then agil

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2004.12.06 21:31:00 - [10]
 

Quote:
I guess the first demonstration of this was in a fleet battle that took place in HED less than 24 hours after the POS was errected. I wasn't actually there but I believe that, with comparable forces, CA won the fight. If the POS was such a major strategic advantage surely the outcome would have been different?

But it IS a major strategic advantage. Xetic now have a safe spot in HED completely impervious to CA assault, as long as it's fueled. This was proven this weekend shortly before the big fleet battle in u-q, when CA brought its fleet to HED and was forced to go back when all the SE and Xetic clustered around the POS (which may seem lame but we were hopelessly outnumbered at the time).

It's basically a safe haven in one of the most highly contested systems in EVE, how is that not a strategic advantage?

Sabahl
Minmatar
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2004.12.06 21:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
with this xetc - ca war will it b very handy for the xetics to have a safer, much safer station then agil


Well, that's the safespot argument, which caused all sorts of indiugnation when CA tried to use it, earlier. So other than that, what is your reasoning?

Mine is that a POS (or rather, THIS POS) is simply an inaccesable safe-spot, warping out of which could land you in the middle of a war-party. Undocking from a station carries the same risk when at war. All Xetic has done is created a safe-spot a few jumps further towards (and into) 0.0 space when they effectively had one at the station(s) in Agil.

The Ratfink
Minmatar
Konzil der Drei
Thukker Tribe Mercenaries
Posted - 2004.12.06 22:16:00 - [12]
 

POS = Player Owned Smacktalk

Sabahl
Minmatar
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2004.12.06 22:49:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Xelios
It's basically a safe haven in one of the most highly contested systems in EVE, how is that not a strategic advantage?


Because it is completely passive. In fact, it's worse than passive. A cloaked scout in Hed now knows exactly where to find the Xetic fleet if they are "hiding" and waiting for reinforcements. He can relay precise information back to the commanders and the agressor fleet can choose to remain or stay with plenty of advance warning of an attack. At least with inter-warp safe spots you had some degree of obscurity as to the total number of ships in the fleet.

In this game it's pretty much a given that, in a fleet battle or war situation, the passive side looses or, at best, doesn't win. That's why they have fitted a butt-load of guns around the POS, after all.

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.12.06 23:05:00 - [14]
 

if xetic is at war with ca in empire, how is agil better than a pos..

with a pos you can't camp the entrance, its the equivalent of the agil station sentry guns being hostile to all ca.

also, any competent scout can use the scanner to find out what your fleet has anyways, so the passive argument is moot. For them its also an advantage to split their forces or have backup sitting in mid-space, to give you an illusion of weakness.

"Oh, i'm cloaked outside their starbase, they have 5 battleships, they just warped off to keberz gate"

and then the fleet commander would be like

"well, we got 6, lets engage"

"oh crap sir, 4 more just warped in we're getting pwned"

"rgr, proceed to plan b"

"uh, whats plan b"

"kill our scout"

Razz


The Ratfink
Minmatar
Konzil der Drei
Thukker Tribe Mercenaries
Posted - 2004.12.06 23:09:00 - [15]
 

call it what you want doesn't stop all the alliances in eve building a POS in hed-gp if its such a large tactical advantage

Thanit
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.12.06 23:13:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Amataras
With the establishing of a POS in HED by XT and the subsequent claims by CA that it would amount to nothing, it got me thinking about the actual tactical advantages of the POS. Contrary to what some CA seem to believe, I think the POS has its purposes:

1. Regrouping post: a safe place to fall back to and regroup. If you build nearer enemy territory you have somewhere to go and prepare your next strike quicker than retreating home.

2. Ship hangar: fill the POS' bays with ships so that you can grab a new ship quicker than going all the way home and return to the fight fully armed and ready for battle.

3. Staging area: from a POS you can go out in a frig/interceptor and raid enemy logistics before falling back to a safe haven.

4. Defense: with regard to point 2, if you have a well stocked POS at the entrance to your space or nearby you can have a supply of battleships ready for deployment and you don't have to move your own one across 20 systems to engage the enemy fleet.

A lot of people say POS are over-powered. Perhaps you are taking the wrong approach, POS aren't designed to be ganked - the best way to beat them is to starve their supply lines. Taking out the next indie bringing in supplies and then waiting for the POS to run out is much easier than sending in a 50 battleship fleet and trying to do things the impatient way.

With these reasons I think XETIC will do well in HED. Though they get hassled for being "carebears", their ability to supply minerals and resources to their POS in HED will grant them large tactical superiority over CA in the immediate surrounding systems. The only problem is for them to exploit this advantage properly.

What does everyone think? Am I on the right track?


1. safe place to regroup to ?
agree on place and just log off when there staying in contact out of game. Just as safe, and doable everywhere.

2. true, but isnt going to work very well. You do need to fly them up there anyway.

3. why need one ? coordinate on ts and any one can do that with simple logging off and on fleets.

4. again, gotta bring em up first anyway. It is an advanatage however,

5. Pos are overpowered. Starving one is nearly impossible.
You can simply log off indies full of supplies near it and instajump them into the forcefield when needed. POS when run well and defended well, are currently indestructable except with losses ten times greater then the gains.

So no, I would say they are overpowered and of only limited tactical use until they get additional roles like system scanning, systemwide sentry anchoring and gate control added.

Thanit
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.12.06 23:18:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Thanit on 06/12/2004 23:21:18
Quote:

Meanwhile, the POS can only be configured to actively shoot at designated targets. You can't set it to hostile mode to shoot everyone except those deemed friendly. So if you leave your battleship floating in space behind the forcefield, the first newbie alt who flies in could simply hop into your battleship and scarper.




Oh, and isn't this totallyand ridiculously incorrect btw ?
Afaik you CAN set your guns to fire at anything hostile and No-one can enter the forcefield and get your parked ships at all.

Dai'mon
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.06 23:25:00 - [18]
 

No, you'd need to know the password for the forcefield to get to the battleship.

Sabahl
Minmatar
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2004.12.07 02:44:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dai'mon
No, you'd need to know the password for the forcefield to get to the battleship.


Ahhh right. Well, insider knowledge isn't that hard to come by but I'll accept I mnay have been wrong on this one.

But anyway, the arguments FOR the HED POS now appear to have completely devolved down to "Well, it's a wonderful safespot" which is pretty much what CA's stance has been all along. Except when we said it various people took umbrage.

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2004.12.07 03:57:00 - [20]
 

pos, congratulations you own a high maintance facility that governs a small moon

the only important locations in hed are the stargates

slip66
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2004.12.07 05:22:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Xelios
Quote:
I guess the first demonstration of this was in a fleet battle that took place in HED less than 24 hours after the POS was errected. I wasn't actually there but I believe that, with comparable forces, CA won the fight. If the POS was such a major strategic advantage surely the outcome would have been different?

But it IS a major strategic advantage. Xetic now have a safe spot in HED completely impervious to CA assault, as long as it's fueled. This was proven this weekend shortly before the big fleet battle in u-q, when CA brought its fleet to HED and was forced to go back when all the SE and Xetic clustered around the POS (which may seem lame but we were hopelessly outnumbered at the time).

It's basically a safe haven in one of the most highly contested systems in EVE, how is that not a strategic advantage?



Hmmm Sat. when we went up there I thought we were pretty even in numbers we had 45-50 there was 90 in system. That said we had no clue what you guys had for ships and we were BS heavy. We waiting around for a good 30 min because we were told you guys wanted to fight aswell and only needed a lil time to get ready. In the end we started heading back, with reports of some massing happening in SA land.

How would not having a pos affected this sequence of events? None, in all probability you guys would have done the same thing. Wait in safe spot untill re-enforcements arrived. Granted waiting long enough allows us to find your safe spot but its not like you cant log you fleet off to prevent this and wait for your time to strike.

I dunno atm other then a staging for arms and reapair ( you can insta out to empire in 1 jump and accomplish the same) its not giving you a real advantage IMO other then you can have your fleet logged in, vise sitting in a safe spot for a long period of time.

I think in time it will be very handy just not yet. Still its cool to have a POS to play around with and know your 100% safe :) You also get the occasional laugh from someone warping to the moon while runningTwisted Evil.

slip66
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2004.12.07 05:24:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
if xetic is at war with ca in empire, how is agil better than a pos..

with a pos you can't camp the entrance, its the equivalent of the agil station sentry guns being hostile to all ca.

also, any competent scout can use the scanner to find out what your fleet has anyways, so the passive argument is moot. For them its also an advantage to split their forces or have backup sitting in mid-space, to give you an illusion of weakness.

"Oh, i'm cloaked outside their starbase, they have 5 battleships, they just warped off to keberz gate"

and then the fleet commander would be like

"well, we got 6, lets engage"

"oh crap sir, 4 more just warped in we're getting pwned"

"rgr, proceed to plan b"

"uh, whats plan b"

"kill our scout"

Razz




hehe thats true ill give you that.

Moiran
Gallente
Ferrets Empire
Posted - 2004.12.07 05:33:00 - [23]
 

you got it all so wrong....

it's just a matter of pride for months ca has been saying they would crush xetic
For months they have sayed they own hed-gp.

Most of the people on this boards know some CA like to boast about their pvp abilities a lot and some of them refer to xetic as an "weak alliance". even when that alliance still is around and is closest of all enemy alliances to ca.

Well we can't beat them on their turns (big blob wars) so we have to use our own strength see if we could pull of logistics to set an base right in the corridor to hell we where actually expecting the pos to be blown away by now lol , the mission and test itself is allready succesfull the fun to see if we could pull it off to build one right in an CA controlled sytem as they like to say it on the forum was worth the cost involved.

all the other things here are just an side effect of the pos still being around and aren't realy thought about, so your imput is appriciated.


Iratus Caelestis
Caldari
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.07 08:28:00 - [24]
 

What I am really surprised about is that nobody has started a thread saying

WTB HED PoS Password, name your price. Very Happy

Everything has a price and whilst a ****ty tactic CCP haven't give people any other viable means of taking these things down.

If just a few BS's can take a conquerable Station why can 25 not stand a chance against just a 'starbase'

Amataras
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.07 10:53:00 - [25]
 

Although I believe that POS already have strong potential for tactical roles, i have to agree with the view mentioned somewhere above that they will never really come into their own until their is some form of wider area turret anchoring (perhaps once you anchor a POS around a moon you can place turrets at any object orbiting that moon - ie asteroid field or gate).

Though there is an argument for gate control, if this was ever implemented it should be controlled by the POS and there should be a way to 'hack' it from the other side (so that it isnt completely closed off - what would be the fun in that? YARRRR!! )

Originally by: Sabahl
Well, if my counter-arguments to yours are correct I'd have to say that the HED station has only one useful benefit for Xetic : it really puts the wind up CA. But after the discussion threads such as this, that psychological advantage is going to rapidly deflate, leaving nothing but an expensive load of hardware floating in space.

I guess the first demonstration of this was in a fleet battle that took place in HED less than 24 hours after the POS was errected. I wasn't actually there but I believe that, with comparable forces, CA won the fight. If the POS was such a major strategic advantage surely the outcome would have been different?


Maybe its because, as I said above, XT didnt think to take advantage of the benefits the POS gave them. In this case it is not the POS that is at fault but XT's tactics. However I wasn't there so i wont presume to speak of what i dont know.

I really want to see the HED POS used as a base for advancing into what is traditionally curse space. If XT built more POS in the area, who would we consider to be in control? If they show that they can maintain a presence in the region, then CA looses its right to recognisable sovereignty there.

AnIntrepidCosmonaut
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.07 11:31:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
What I am really surprised about is that nobody has started a thread saying

WTB HED PoS Password, name your price. Very Happy

Everything has a price and whilst a ****ty tactic CCP haven't give people any other viable means of taking these things down.

If just a few BS's can take a conquerable Station why can 25 not stand a chance against just a 'starbase'


Yeah m8 too bad you can't lock onto anything once you are inside the forcefield Razz


 

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