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bloodlust priest
Posted - 2010.05.10 03:28:00 - [1]
 

i know for mod invention i do, but with ships dont i only get one run anyway? if i was copying only 1 run bpcs would i be badly effected and would the + run decryptors be affected?

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2010.05.10 03:36:00 - [2]
 

There are two schools of thought on that. One is yes one is no. My best advice is try both if you feel that one is more successful than another go with that one. I am in the no corner, one of my e-friends that does ship invention as well is in the yes corner. We call each other idiots on a regular basis when on that topic. The problem is that there is a clear advantage of using max run for mods, and no clear advantage for ships, unless you are one of the idiots in the yes branch of thought.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.05.10 03:47:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2010 03:53:44


For ships (and rigs), if the extra time/cash needed to go from 1-run to max-run on T1 BPCs is in your eyes justified for a mere +1 run on the obtained T2 BPC, then yes, use max runs... for 4 of the 5 decryptor types (16 out of 20 if you account for races), that is.
If you don't perceive that benefit to justify the cost, then use 1-run copies.

Anything in between 1-run and max-run is pointless, pick either one or the other.
...at least for freighters you don't have to choose at all since 1-run is max-run Twisted Evil

Using the Formation Layout, Tuning Instructions, Collision Measurements, Calibration Data type of decryptor or using no decryptor gets you nothing extra with a max-run T1 BPC, so always use 1-run T1 BPCs in that case.

I would recommend using max-run T1 BPCs only for the Classic Doctrine, Prototype Diagram, Test Reports, Advanced Theories type of decryptor (you get 2 runs instead of just 1 run with -2 ME, +1 PE)...
...but you can borderline justify it even for the Sacred Manifesto, User Manual, Engagement Plan, Operation Handbook type of decryptor (where you get 3 runs instead of just 2 runs with -3 ME, 0 PE).

bloodlust priest
Posted - 2010.05.10 03:51:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Tellenta
There are two schools of thought on that. One is yes one is no. My best advice is try both if you feel that one is more successful than another go with that one. I am in the no corner, one of my e-friends that does ship invention as well is in the yes corner. We call each other idiots on a regular basis when on that topic. The problem is that there is a clear advantage of using max run for mods, and no clear advantage for ships, unless you are one of the idiots in the yes branch of thought.


what is this unclear advantage in using/not using max run bpcs for ships

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.05.10 04:07:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2010 04:10:51
Originally by: bloodlust priest
Originally by: Tellenta
one of my e-friends that does ship invention as well is in the yes corner. We call each other idiots on a regular basis when on that topic. The problem is that there is a clear advantage of using max run for mods, and no clear advantage for ships
what is this unclear advantage in using/not using max run bpcs for ships

Tellenta's lack of knowledge would be a first gut guess, since she seems unaware there IS an advantage (as explained above).
In her defense, she might have known that already, but deemed it "economically unfeasible"... which would be either right or wrong depending on current market conditions (costs of BPCs, costs of decryptors, costs of materials, etc) and chosen invention (ship type and decryptor).

I guess Tellenta has a friend she should stop calling an idiot all the time, unless it's for a specific set of circumstances, since obviously there are cases where her friend is right and she is wrong (but also enough cases where she is right and her friend is wrong) Laughing

Mad Constructor
Mad Industrys
Posted - 2010.05.10 09:15:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: bloodlust priest
Originally by: Tellenta
There are two schools of thought on that. One is yes one is no. My best advice is try both if you feel that one is more successful than another go with that one. I am in the no corner, one of my e-friends that does ship invention as well is in the yes corner. We call each other idiots on a regular basis when on that topic. The problem is that there is a clear advantage of using max run for mods, and no clear advantage for ships, unless you are one of the idiots in the yes branch of thought.


what is this unclear advantage in using/not using max run bpcs for ships


The advantage of using a max run BPC is you get 1 extra run with a decryptor (except for the ones listed)

The advantage of using a 1 run BPC is a decrease in the lab time needed(or isk if you buy your BPCs), as well as isk investment as you will need more then 1 BPO to keep the same levels of production.

However inventors can't even agree on how to calculate profit. Agreeing on the best way to get profit is not ever going to happen. You are going to have to figure out what kind of operation you want to run, and what is best in that situation. No one can do that for you.

Kzool
Amarr
Aquilia Cohors Praetoria
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.11 06:14:00 - [7]
 

Bah, guys, i think you all are wrong.
There is no "two schools" or any strong recipie for what to choose. Every single moment there is one optimal choose what to use and every time you have to calculate it by itself.

Here is simple example. Next small list shows most profitable combination for some ships for current market prices.

1) Anathema - Circular Logic, 1 run BPC
2) Buzzard - no decryptor, 1 run BPC
3) Hulk - Engagement plan, 1 run BPC
4) Mackinaw - Engagement plan, max run BPC
5) Broadsword - Operational Handbook, max run BPC

As you can see, there are lots of combinations for different ships and you have to calculate it each time market prices change.

Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
Posted - 2010.05.11 15:27:00 - [8]
 

This sheet ( if you enter your invention related skills into it ) will tell you the best* way for you to invent any item in game

Including whether to use single or max runs bpc's


Invention Spreadsheet

* The best way is the way which leads to the cheapest item build cost taking into account all invention costs and manufacturing costs.

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2010.05.12 13:14:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2010 04:10:51
Originally by: bloodlust priest
Originally by: Tellenta
one of my e-friends that does ship invention as well is in the yes corner. We call each other idiots on a regular basis when on that topic. The problem is that there is a clear advantage of using max run for mods, and no clear advantage for ships
what is this unclear advantage in using/not using max run bpcs for ships

Tellenta's lack of knowledge would be a first gut guess, since she seems unaware there IS an advantage (as explained above).
In her defense, she might have known that already, but deemed it "economically unfeasible"... which would be either right or wrong depending on current market conditions (costs of BPCs, costs of decryptors, costs of materials, etc) and chosen invention (ship type and decryptor).

I guess Tellenta has a friend she should stop calling an idiot all the time, unless it's for a specific set of circumstances, since obviously there are cases where her friend is right and she is wrong (but also enough cases where she is right and her friend is wrong) Laughing



It's pretty much a time issue, as the solitary individual operating my T2 production tyeing up a research slot with copying 6 max run BPC's for a month, as opposed to getting 20 1 run copies just shy of a week is a poor choice of time management going for max run. If there was a distinct lack of profit going with a single run compared to a max run BPC I would see the point. However your success rate is not effected and what it boils down to is the invention costs are divided by one less ship per success. Concidering where a majority of T2 ship production costs lays the benefit of being able to copy/invent/produce/sell the ships before only 6-7 max run copies comes out of the cooker has a very significant advantage.

However if you had alts or minions who you did not care if their research slots get tied up for months at a time I could see the advantage of using max run BPC's. However the fact still remains time is money and at a %35ish success rate you're looking at 2 successes vs my 7. My invention costs might be higher but that is negated by quantity and speed.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.05.12 13:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Kzool
Bah, guys, i think you all are wrong.
There is no "two schools" or any strong recipie for what to choose. Every single moment there is one optimal choose what to use and every time you have to calculate it by itself. ...


this pretty much ^^

And yeah, you either stay with 1-2 ships and do small calcs by hand or get some spreadsheet to help you do mass-calcs on all costs for most of the ships fast.

1OfMany
Posted - 2010.05.12 14:26:00 - [11]
 

Being a bit new to ship invention (done a lot of module invention)

Does a succesfull invention on a 1 run Caracal BPC with a user manual decrease the chance of becomming a 3 run Cerberus BPC? aka, a 2 run or even 1 run could be the outcome no matter what about the +2 runs on the decrypter ?

I mean i've done alot of max (with the max being the max the T2 BPC can have) run T1 BPC's for modules like Scourge Fury and other ammunition, and the successfull ones where always a max run BPC.

If it does not affect the amount of runs, what use would it have to put in a 10 run caracal BPC as i haven't really noticed any succesrate increase when using more runs on a BPC to be honest... I must confess i'm not a macromanaging inventor, i just do it in between other things and make some profit with it (gotta do something with the items i collect from exploration)

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.05.12 14:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: 1OfMany
Being a bit new to ship invention (done a lot of module invention)

Does a succesfull invention on a 1 run Caracal BPC with a user manual decrease the chance of becomming a 3 run Cerberus BPC? aka, a 2 run or even 1 run could be the outcome no matter what about the +2 runs on the decrypter ?

I mean i've done alot of max (with the max being the max the T2 BPC can have) run T1 BPC's for modules like Scourge Fury and other ammunition, and the successfull ones where always a max run BPC.

If it does not affect the amount of runs, what use would it have to put in a 10 run caracal BPC as i haven't really noticed any succesrate increase when using more runs on a BPC to be honest... I must confess i'm not a macromanaging inventor, i just do it in between other things and make some profit with it (gotta do something with the items i collect from exploration)

MaxRun BPC are only usefull in conjunction with +x run decryptors (where x is >1) as this will give you 1 MORE run on the T2 BPC.. no chance is being modified.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/invention_chance.php

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/invention.php

Quote:

The formula for invention is:

Invention Output Runs = min(max( round down ( (Input BPC Runs / T1 Production Limit) * (T2 Production Limit / 10) + Decryptor Runs ), 1), T2 Production Limit)

"Production limit" has been changed to read "Max Runs per blueprint copy" in Apocrypha patch 1.1 (possibly 1.2).
Source: http://www.eve-guides.com/invention/decryptors.php

Ashmira Wintereyes
Caldari
Free Spirits
Posted - 2010.05.12 14:51:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ashmira Wintereyes on 12/05/2010 14:53:42
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: 1OfMany
Being a bit new to ship invention (done a lot of module invention)

Does a succesfull invention on a 1 run Caracal BPC with a user manual decrease the chance of becomming a 3 run Cerberus BPC? aka, a 2 run or even 1 run could be the outcome no matter what about the +2 runs on the decrypter ?

I mean i've done alot of max (with the max being the max the T2 BPC can have) run T1 BPC's for modules like Scourge Fury and other ammunition, and the successfull ones where always a max run BPC.

If it does not affect the amount of runs, what use would it have to put in a 10 run caracal BPC as i haven't really noticed any succesrate increase when using more runs on a BPC to be honest... I must confess i'm not a macromanaging inventor, i just do it in between other things and make some profit with it (gotta do something with the items i collect from exploration)

MaxRun BPC are only usefull in conjunction with +x run decryptors (where x is >1) as this will give you 1 MORE run on the T2 BPC.. no chance is being modified.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/invention_chance.php

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/invention.php

Quote:

The formula for invention is:

Invention Output Runs = min(max( round down ( (Input BPC Runs / T1 Production Limit) * (T2 Production Limit / 10) + Decryptor Runs ), 1), T2 Production Limit)

"Production limit" has been changed to read "Max Runs per blueprint copy" in Apocrypha patch 1.1 (possibly 1.2).
Source: http://www.eve-guides.com/invention/decryptors.php


Yes, this is what i thought as well, so it does not make a difference if you invent for runs and do not really care about slightly heightened success rates. But when i want a 3 Run Cerberus BPC, i can use a 1 run BPC as input with the User Manual (+1/+4) and (when successful) will get a 3 Run -3/0 ME/PE out of it.

I'm using the churker website myself too.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2010.05.12 15:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: 1OfMany
Does a succesfull invention on a 1 run Caracal BPC with a user manual decrease the chance of becomming a 3 run Cerberus BPC? aka, a 2 run or even 1 run could be the outcome no matter what about the +2 runs on the decrypter?
The probabilty stays the same, as shown in the wiki. The runs of the T2 will change depending, if you use a max-run (3-runs T2) or single run copy (2-runs T2).


 

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