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Minuki Zedra
Omega Engineering Inc.
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.05.03 10:47:00 - [271]
 

So far PI seems to be progressing pretty well. I've come up with a decent semi-standardized layout for my pins which makes best use of the current CPU/Powergrid from a CC, but Links seem to be excessive in the amount they consume - I've at most used just over 23% of the 10,000m3 limit. On larger radius worlds, such as Gas giants, the kilometer distance really eats CPU/Powergrid, and leaves little for actually establishing a network of a similar global coverage to other worlds. Basing a Links cost on length compared to planets circumference rather than to the actual km it covers would balance that issue.

Creating routes from multiple structures does, as other people have already stated here, takes a gawd awful number of mouse clicks and moving around screen. Having a few default choices available from menu (nearest Storage, Processors which can accept the resource/product, nearest Starport etc) could be a possible solution (with most logical being automatically selected before you go into route menu) saving the player all that mouse ergonomics moving view around to find where they want to route to.

Hasnpbeard
Posted - 2010.05.03 11:25:00 - [272]
 


The whole system of links, routes, need to transport materials form one to the other and whatnot is AWFUL and redundant.

I would welcome a modular command center that can be upgraded in ONE place without the whole network hassle.

You succeeded in creating a toybox for full-time industrial players who love to play simspace and probably having a pet project for creative devs, they have done this job very good, but too good.

The stated goal of CCP was "to get new players into PI very easily from the start", with this overly complex system you failed horribly in doing so.



Cygwin Gaad
Caldari
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.03 12:35:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Hasnpbeard

The whole system of links, routes, need to transport materials form one to the other and whatnot is AWFUL and redundant.

I would welcome a modular command center that can be upgraded in ONE place without the whole network hassle.

You succeeded in creating a toybox for full-time industrial players who love to play simspace and probably having a pet project for creative devs, they have done this job very good, but too good.

The stated goal of CCP was "to get new players into PI very easily from the start", with this overly complex system you failed horribly in doing so.



The goal was not something that new players could get into easily from the start, it was to have low entry requirements so anyone could start to. but that does not mean it needs to be simple. it means it has low skill requirements.

Reactions have low skill requirements (none) but require quite a sizable amount of player knowledge to operate. PI is similar. its easy to get into (relatively) but not necessarily for newbs.

on a side note, looking up autotrophs on wiki, in EvE you can mine for fish.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.05.03 12:57:00 - [274]
 

Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 03/05/2010 12:57:53
can we have basic route that has 10 times lower capacity and 10 times lower powergrid cpu requirements, because even if i try really hard, i did not manage to get a single route over 15 percent with an elite pin.
Also i can imagine transportuing goods on a gas planet might be less difficult then transporting goods on a lava planet.
Airports for transport anyone/ where you are charged per each unit transported instead?
SO you can connect posessor on the other end of the planet that only produces a very small amount of goods?
I think volumes of stuff produced need to be increased, i am harveting the entire planet for livestock, and i get 5 sheep produced every hour.. common.....I feel like a poor farmer, not an immortal demigod.

Deleware
Posted - 2010.05.03 15:06:00 - [275]
 

It would be cool to have a Overview type of Window for a Planet, where you can see the rest amount of time for extractors.
Maybe like the normal overview (which stays when you are in space anyways).
Just add the Extractors to the Object list, that way people can make there own Planetary Tab in the Overview.
And Links as well if it's not to much.

Other than that, it's really cool! I love it.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.03 15:30:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Horchan
Originally by: Jim Luc
Well - simply "not using the basic CC" is not how it should be, because I'm trying to use the system from the ground up. Build from the most simple system, so I get the hang of PI. Isn't there a way to upgrade CC structures from basic to the next tier and so on??? If not.... Why the F NOT????

Per your second suggestion, I'm not sure what you mean. Currently I try to route material from my extractor to my processor, but it says I have no materials that it takes. There are only two processors on a lava planet - none of which takes any of the raw materials that the extractors produce. What the hell am I supposed to do with the raw materials??? Isn't this supposed to work as a supply chain - manufacturing goods etc? What am I missing here???

I'll be nice and step you through it.

The reason Basic CC's are worthless is because they require NO SKILLS to use. Ignoring the fact we were all granted the skill to use Elite CC's, the skill will be easy to train to 3 in under a day, which grants access to Improved CC's. If you insist on learning "from the ground up", use a Standard or Improved CC. As of this build, you can't upgrade CC's. Whether this is an oversight by CCP or an intended game mechanic is yet to be determined.

Processors. You're making them too hard. You have to select the schematic first before you can route things to it.

Place the Processor, click on it, select Schematics. At the very top of a Basic one it will say "Bacteria". Click there. Note the long list of new schematics you can pick. Find the schematic that uses whatever resource you are extracting and click it. Then click the "Submit" on the bottom of the Processor window. NOW you can route said resource to your Processor.


Wow, ok I'll try that.

CCP really has LOTS of work left if they want this to be easy for n00bs. As a game designer and developer myself, the first bits of a colony should be really simple to grasp, almost tutorial-like. As you progress, or if you build more advanced CC units, then it can get more complicated.

Also, what's up with the 23 second "busy" timer??? Why don't we have a little circle telling us the system is busy? It's not very intuitive, but if the reason is to reduce lag, then I guess we have no choice. Still.... I would never play Age of Empires or Civilization if I had to wait 23 seconds between placing my buildings. Even if I had a "submit" button. At least show us when the timer will be ready.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.03 17:14:00 - [277]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 03/05/2010 17:29:08
Three things absolutely, without a doubt, need to be fixed.
- You can only interact with a planet once every 30 seconds.
- When I re-start production on an extractor, I scan for deposits, wait for it to scan, pick one out, and hit Submit. Then I need to hit a second, completely unrelated Submit button for it to actually start mining.
- When I start mining, I can only route a number of units per cycle equal to what I mine at that time. So if I ever start producing more than that, the excess is lost unless I route the stuff again. Either just have it default to "Route all" and have that adjust to future production, or at least allow us to input numbers higher than current production. Alternately, just eliminate routeing completely, and have storage space on planet be a commons as long as everything is linked together. The details of routeing are just busy work anyways.

Make things easier to work with, not harder. Unnecessary delays and excessive clicks are things you need to minimize.

Also, a couple other balance issues. First, the relation of the 24h and 96h deposits needs to be changed - the 96 doesn't produce enough in comparison. It takes over 3 days for the 96h deposit to make more in total than the 24h. That number should be perhaps two days. Second, I'm not seeing any way to use all my CPU. Roads use essentially equal amounts of both, and most facilities use more PG than CPU, while CCs produce much more CPU than PG. Either give us the ability to create generator stations(use CPU, produce PG), or rejig the numbers so that both are meaningful limits, probably by making roads use more CPU and less PG.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.03 18:58:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 03/05/2010 17:29:08
Three things absolutely, without a doubt, need to be fixed.
- You can only interact with a planet once every 30 seconds.
- When I re-start production on an extractor, I scan for deposits, wait for it to scan, pick one out, and hit Submit. Then I need to hit a second, completely unrelated Submit button for it to actually start mining.
- When I start mining, I can only route a number of units per cycle equal to what I mine at that time. So if I ever start producing more than that, the excess is lost unless I route the stuff again. Either just have it default to "Route all" and have that adjust to future production, or at least allow us to input numbers higher than current production. Alternately, just eliminate routeing completely, and have storage space on planet be a commons as long as everything is linked together. The details of routeing are just busy work anyways.

Make things easier to work with, not harder. Unnecessary delays and excessive clicks are things you need to minimize.

Also, a couple other balance issues. First, the relation of the 24h and 96h deposits needs to be changed - the 96 doesn't produce enough in comparison. It takes over 3 days for the 96h deposit to make more in total than the 24h. That number should be perhaps two days. Second, I'm not seeing any way to use all my CPU. Roads use essentially equal amounts of both, and most facilities use more PG than CPU, while CCs produce much more CPU than PG. Either give us the ability to create generator stations(use CPU, produce PG), or rejig the numbers so that both are meaningful limits, probably by making roads use more CPU and less PG.


Agreed - I'm sure the 30 second timer was added to deal with the server aspects and things like that, however it ruins gameplay. There are other ways to eliminate this need for a timer, right?

When I sell items in my inventory, there isn't a timer for each transaction.

When I change direction in my ship, there isn't a timer for each maneuver I do with my ship.

Isn't it possible to separate each planet away from the rest of the servers, and update each planet's PI setup once every 30 seconds, however removing the timer for the user. Basically allow users to make changes, which saves to a separate server, and then that separate server updates the main server on a delayed interval. This should reduce the load on the main server, while allowing us the freedom to play without any needless stop/start 30 second timers.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2010.05.03 19:46:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc

Agreed - I'm sure the 30 second timer was added to deal with the server aspects and things like that, however it ruins gameplay. There are other ways to eliminate this need for a timer, right?

When I sell items in my inventory, there isn't a timer for each transaction.

When I change direction in my ship, there isn't a timer for each maneuver I do with my ship.

Isn't it possible to separate each planet away from the rest of the servers, and update each planet's PI setup once every 30 seconds, however removing the timer for the user. Basically allow users to make changes, which saves to a separate server, and then that separate server updates the main server on a delayed interval. This should reduce the load on the main server, while allowing us the freedom to play without any needless stop/start 30 second timers.


1st, I can't agree that the 30 second submit interval is in the way of anything. I plop down my CC and hit submit, plop down extractors, storage, processors and link them up and hit submit. Survey the extractors, select the resources and route the same to storage facility. Hit submit.

Nowhere between those submits do i spend LESS than 30 seconds setting stuff up.

2nd, why don't you donate a farm quality server to CCP then so they can set that up. Even if you had a good server collecting dust to spare or could afford one i doubt you would do so.
The point is, why should CCP set up a separate server JUST so people can hit the submit button with lesser intervals?

Just make sure you complete more tasks in your edits before you hit submit and all should be well.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2010.05.03 20:17:00 - [280]
 

Edited by: Cadde on 03/05/2010 20:20:09
Right, feedback...

Extractors

  • Need the ability to select many of the same type and hit survey where it would then show the average numbers and select the interval you want.

  • Need the ability to select many of the same type and routing (hardcoded) everything they produce to a storage facility.

  • Have an area of influence to show just how much resources they can reach.

  • Be upgradable to increase their range and/or extraction capacity. (This eliminates the need to place lots of them in the same general area.)


Processing facilities

  • Should have the option to only accept materials when it's ready for another cycle as to not hog 99% of the materials each.

  • Should have a button that says "expedite transfer"


Links

  • Should take less powergrid and more CPU.

  • Should have less capacity making the upgrade option feasible.


Misc

  • Wanna see re-balancing of the production chain to instill certainty that PI can be profitable after patch day.

  • Wanna see more resources on planets. (As mentioned in the op but liek naow!)

  • Wanna see ICONS before release plox

  • Want some measure of just how much of each material (in total) is routed so that i won't have to open excel just to make sure my extractors are producing enough to keep my processors busy.

  • Upgradable storage facility perhaps?

  • The ability to scan a spot on a planet to see what an extractor placed there might be able to achieve.


For all else, use common sense. (There might be more to it but that is off the top of my head)

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.05.03 20:33:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 03/05/2010 20:36:20

Maybe add a new PIN: Nuclear Power Plant
* CPU Requirment: 10000
* Grid Requirement: -8000 (adds more grid at the expense of CPU).
No idea on actual numbers. These are just wild guesses.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.03 20:55:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Cadde
Originally by: Jim Luc

Agreed - I'm sure the 30 second timer was added to deal with the server aspects and things like that, however it ruins gameplay. There are other ways to eliminate this need for a timer, right?

When I sell items in my inventory, there isn't a timer for each transaction.

When I change direction in my ship, there isn't a timer for each maneuver I do with my ship.

Isn't it possible to separate each planet away from the rest of the servers, and update each planet's PI setup once every 30 seconds, however removing the timer for the user. Basically allow users to make changes, which saves to a separate server, and then that separate server updates the main server on a delayed interval. This should reduce the load on the main server, while allowing us the freedom to play without any needless stop/start 30 second timers.


1st, I can't agree that the 30 second submit interval is in the way of anything. I plop down my CC and hit submit, plop down extractors, storage, processors and link them up and hit submit. Survey the extractors, select the resources and route the same to storage facility. Hit submit.

Nowhere between those submits do i spend LESS than 30 seconds setting stuff up.

2nd, why don't you donate a farm quality server to CCP then so they can set that up. Even if you had a good server collecting dust to spare or could afford one i doubt you would do so.
The point is, why should CCP set up a separate server JUST so people can hit the submit button with lesser intervals?

Just make sure you complete more tasks in your edits before you hit submit and all should be well.


This is a short-sighted view, as in its current iteration PI is very simple, and you can plop down one or two extractors and a reactor, then click submit. Gameplay-wise, it's not very intuitive (or you'd see similar timers on other multiplayer games).

Your quip about the servers is just obnoxious.

PI is meant as a way to bring RTS players to the game. Thus, it should have an RTS taste to it, and be addicting to the newest of players, and profitable and still fun for the more advanced industry types.

Also - currently everyone will just wait a few hours for their skills to advance to level 3, and never purchase the basic Command structure. To combat this - I propose higher CC units cannot be purchased on the open market - only upgraded to. The same goes for other upgrades. This way, a player with high skills still has to work hard to develop a profitable colony. The same goes for people with lower skills, and will allow for more reason to deploy ground troops on a colony instead of just nuking and starting over from scratch.

Equto
Posted - 2010.05.04 02:36:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc


This is a short-sighted view, as in its current iteration PI is very simple, and you can plop down one or two extractors and a reactor, then click submit. Gameplay-wise, it's not very intuitive (or you'd see similar timers on other multiplayer games).

Your quip about the servers is just obnoxious.

PI is meant as a way to bring RTS players to the game. Thus, it should have an RTS taste to it, and be addicting to the newest of players, and profitable and still fun for the more advanced industry types.

Also - currently everyone will just wait a few hours for their skills to advance to level 3, and never purchase the basic Command structure. To combat this - I propose higher CC units cannot be purchased on the open market - only upgraded to. The same goes for other upgrades. This way, a player with high skills still has to work hard to develop a profitable colony. The same goes for people with lower skills, and will allow for more reason to deploy ground troops on a colony instead of just nuking and starting over from scratch.



You have obviously missed the point of the 30 second time and what you can do between them but let me give you an idea of why its necessary since I am certified in setting up medium to large networks and have designed several websites that involve mass request.

Lets say it takes the server .01 second to do a simple PI request( place an extractor) in this request would also have to be your character information, planet, location on planet, and some sort of index to tell the server which extractor it is as well as extractor information. Lets say that 1000 hit submit every second setting up their networks. It will take the server 10 seconds to complete this request ( exaggerated as there are several servers) and if everyone hits that same submit button every second setting up their networks the server will quickly not be able to process the other data it needs like ships what they have turned on and their health.

By changing it to every 30 seconds you make it so that the chances of those 1000 people sending the submit button at the same time very low and even when it does happen it has time to process the request before it gets hammered again. However while waiting on that 30 second time you can place more than one extractor and link the extractors to storage facility and make processors. By settings up more than one building per submit you also lessen the strain on the server as it only has to send planet and character information once as opposed to however many extractors you setup. After setting up the buildings you then have 30 seconds to set routes select which extractors extract what and how fast as well as determine what processors will produce.

That is the reason I believe that the 30 second time exist and should not be removed however a little circle that rotates like a stop watch showing you how long you have left should not take long to program.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.05.04 03:06:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Driven Marcelli
...
oh and ENOGH WITH THE [email protected]#$ RESOURCE REMAPS ALREADY


DEFINITALY NOT SIGNED. That's the best part of it..
Never ever do I want to see STATIC resources in EVE again as it is with moon-goo.
Thanks for this CCP, love you!

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.04 03:43:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Equto
Originally by: Jim Luc


This is a short-sighted view, as in its current iteration PI is very simple, and you can plop down one or two extractors and a reactor, then click submit. Gameplay-wise, it's not very intuitive (or you'd see similar timers on other multiplayer games).

Your quip about the servers is just obnoxious.

PI is meant as a way to bring RTS players to the game. Thus, it should have an RTS taste to it, and be addicting to the newest of players, and profitable and still fun for the more advanced industry types.

Also - currently everyone will just wait a few hours for their skills to advance to level 3, and never purchase the basic Command structure. To combat this - I propose higher CC units cannot be purchased on the open market - only upgraded to. The same goes for other upgrades. This way, a player with high skills still has to work hard to develop a profitable colony. The same goes for people with lower skills, and will allow for more reason to deploy ground troops on a colony instead of just nuking and starting over from scratch.



You have obviously missed the point of the 30 second time and what you can do between them but let me give you an idea of why its necessary since I am certified in setting up medium to large networks and have designed several websites that involve mass request.

Lets say it takes the server .01 second to do a simple PI request( place an extractor) in this request would also have to be your character information, planet, location on planet, and some sort of index to tell the server which extractor it is as well as extractor information. Lets say that 1000 hit submit every second setting up their networks. It will take the server 10 seconds to complete this request ( exaggerated as there are several servers) and if everyone hits that same submit button every second setting up their networks the server will quickly not be able to process the other data it needs like ships what they have turned on and their health.

By changing it to every 30 seconds you make it so that the chances of those 1000 people sending the submit button at the same time very low and even when it does happen it has time to process the request before it gets hammered again. However while waiting on that 30 second time you can place more than one extractor and link the extractors to storage facility and make processors. By settings up more than one building per submit you also lessen the strain on the server as it only has to send planet and character information once as opposed to however many extractors you setup. After setting up the buildings you then have 30 seconds to set routes select which extractors extract what and how fast as well as determine what processors will produce.

That is the reason I believe that the 30 second time exist and should not be removed however a little circle that rotates like a stop watch showing you how long you have left should not take long to program.


Yeah - I understand the reasoning behind the 30 second timer, and I don't have experience designing server architecture, however I would think they could separate the PI from the rest of EVE - saving the current state of the planets (and in the future, stations) to an external server - and then sending everything it has to the main server every 30 seconds, or even ever minute. You can even still have a submit button, which can act as a "polite" buffer. The developers can also quickly create a catch so someone spamming a button won't keep sending the server requests every time they press a button.

Little things that I add to my flash applications, and what we do in iPhone and iPad development, to keep the users experience as seamless as possible without overloading the server with too many requests. I would think they can add these things to make the workflow a bit more smooth. A circular countdown graphic and similar UI elements are much needed.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.05.04 04:31:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
... A circular countdown graphic and similar UI elements are much needed.

Saying this since PIv1.. ANY visible Countdown would do..

I know exactly what the most asked question in help-channel will be if this UI stays without a visible timer.. (just like the chat-bubble thingy for getting into other channels).
Please CCP, have mercy!!!

Piotyr Petrovsky
Posted - 2010.05.04 05:06:00 - [287]
 

OK, HOPING that the high-sec resources are what you will pin them to when 50,000 extractors (or whatever number you have in mind) are all plopped down by everyone and their uncle on every planet in high-sec, and that the 0.0 levels are for ANY planet that no one is yet on. This would tend to PUSH people out when they want to do it, rather than your usual PULL way of 'Oh look! These planets out here of the exact same type just GUSH resources for no real reason!'

You KNOW the star types of each system, instead of a sec status resource distribution, index the star type and the planet type and size and orbit position to get a resource distribution...ANYTHING other than 0.0 just gets more stuff for no good reason.

Null sec has the shattered planets? Fine, that's OK. Null sec maybe has the most of a certain star type? Cool with me too as that means it's at a different time of galactic evolution! Just don't take the cheesy way out and say 0.0 gets more stuff 'cause we say so--build the box and fill it with sand and we'll deplete hi-sec soon enough!

But if you ask your planet consultant, I'm sure he'll tell you that the ability of the human race to significantly deplete a gas giant of any given resource is a pretty silly concept--so even high-sec gas giants should always spew forth lots and lots of stuff and not ever noticably 'deplete' no matter how many extractors are running, but other resources would have different rates--some significantly faster to deplete.

That's at level 1 extraction, though. If you take the idea to add levels to the extractors (and then the scanning ability as well) and also COORDINATES you'd add these things (using oil as an example):

1 bubbling crude - Jed Clampett strikes it rich
2 shallow drilling
3 deep drilling/ocean drilling
4 oil shale extraction
5 oil sand extraction

So a planet can be pretty much pinned to the bottom end of the resource scale at level 1, BUT, if no one has tapped level 2 yet, then you win!

You need the extractor skill to plant one the right level, so with coords you get the mini-profession of surveyor! Hire someone to scan for level 4 oil on your planet instead of drilling random dry holes--and hope he's not a scammer! (Corps would benefit since you know your corp-mate.)

Scanning and extracting would be MEGA skills, like x15 or x20; the effect would be for planets to deplete and spring back into vogue with higher skills then deplete again...for entry level give a 'basic' extractor that is a x1 skill and can extract ANYTHING on the planet but at a much reduced rate. You'd see like just two choices for each of the resources instead of four choices for a specific extractor type.

ABOVE ALL ELSE PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS NEXT BIT!

Get rid of the import/export tax and replace it with the way more realistic 'gravity tax'! Which is to say it's the cost to launch your shuttle out of a given gravity well.

You already KNOW the escape velocity of all your planets; all you need to do is add a MASS to all the stuff and keep the volume, then you can fit 10 tons or 10,000 m3 into your shuttle, and then calculate the launch cost as fuel needed to make the shuttle get off the planet for the overall shuttle mass + cargo mass.

This adds a nifty dimension to it all--gas giants you are gonna export raw gas since gas is WAYYY more compressible than water (need to be able to extract hydrogen somewhere now) and other worlds would have other cut-off points for the 'export or build here decision?' It lets us find the sweet spots to do things in the most efficient way using ALL the planets. (BTW, import would be 'free' or very minimal cost, just glide a cargo can down to the surface.)

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.05.04 06:04:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
PI is meant as a way to bring RTS players to the game. Thus, it should have an RTS taste to it, and be addicting to the newest of players, and profitable and still fun for the more advanced industry types.]


Where do you get this from? CCP hasn't said a damn thing about RTS players. The only games they mentioned it would be similar to would be Civilization and SimCity, neither of which are RTSes.

PI shouldn't have anything to do with RTSes.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.04 08:22:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Kyra Felann
Originally by: Jim Luc
PI is meant as a way to bring RTS players to the game. Thus, it should have an RTS taste to it, and be addicting to the newest of players, and profitable and still fun for the more advanced industry types.]


Where do you get this from? CCP hasn't said a damn thing about RTS players. The only games they mentioned it would be similar to would be Civilization and SimCity, neither of which are RTSes.

PI shouldn't have anything to do with RTSes.


At fanfest and in numerous interviews comparisons were made with Sim City and Civilization - that their goal was to give it a similar vibe.

Bottom line - this should be more fun than spreadsheets with nice graphics. Moon and asteroid mining too.

I have been able to play around a bit more with it, and I've got to say it's starting to shape up, at least for this simplistic launch.

One thing I've gotta mention though: PLEASE SIMPLIFY THE LIST OF INPUTS BY PLANET AND MATERIAL TYPE!!! I found the little dropdown list (way too unnoticeable) and scrolled through each, and unfortunately the list of input materials isn't listed in the drop down, so I had to click on each one to find out if it would work with my extractor (plasma planet - basic metals). It was difficult and REALLY IRRITATING to scroll through searching for something that would refine my metals. Finall I found something. Now I'm not sure what I'm making or what the point of it all is. This should be explained in the final version and SIMPLIFIED. Keep it complex, ie for the more advanced player, but make it accessible and easy to see what goes with what, and what the final product is and what is required to manufacture it. Right now my head explodes with boredom and I'd hate for new players to run away from the game because its learning curve is too steep.


Tas Nok
Posted - 2010.05.04 09:38:00 - [290]
 

I've been at PI now for 3 weeks and have read the threads, and finally have some feedback:


  • The most striking aspect is that there 5? 6? levels of command centers; I think I would prefer to have T1 CC's then 1 or 2 named versions and then a T2 version, not sure which race would put out faction command centers.


  • Along with this and the ongoing PG issues, it would be nice if our current skills actually mattered and my engineering 5 would up my PG output a bit so on Gas Planets I'm not limited to extractor farms all next to each other.


  • Some have suggested that distance be calculated as a percent of the planet distance, I disagree, I do think upgrades to the links ought to make them use LESS CPU tho, this will make upgrades useful.


  • I am being forced to export an awful lot of refined materials because only in a few cases can I produce something useful on one planet, to fix some of this and to cut down on the whining about only 6 planets... I think there ought to be 6 materials on each planet not the current 5, it would basically have the same effect allowing only a handful of planets to fulfill most or all production needs.


  • I'm a bit struck by the sheer cost of all the links and pins, I wasn't really working to be cost effective, just learning, but I've blown through 40 mil on various setups in just the past 7 days and haven't gotten a great deal to show for it, that is gonna be a breaker for the noobs.


  • Speaking of cost...Why is it I need to decommission/destroy my extractors to move to a new spot?? It costs nothing to un-anchor a POS and its various bits, why is there an upfront (better not screw this up!) cost on placing your structures... that is really odd. (otoh, all the pins, and the customs office magically appearing is also a bit odd)


  • There really needs to be a corp role for this, I ought to be able to set up my network(s) then assign them (corp access-Planetary) and anyone in corp can manage them the same as you would a POS, move materials, start processes etc....


  • And finally.. I've made a couple T3 materials, but not in quantity yet, but on sisi I'm not governed by cost restraints, so I keep mixing and matching as I please... (and believe me I do understand the balancing is coming) but has ANYONE made enough 'stuff' to build ANYTHING from the new BPO's cause right now without a corp/alliance wide effort it's looking like they are going to be a tad bit impossible to create solo or even with a small corp.


And just some small non-PI notes:
with Moveme bot gone I'm back to AP everywhere but AP seems to stop now and then, BR forthcoming if I can get it to happen again. Also in the scanning window, double clicking a probe no longer centers on the screen, please, please put that back, it is a royal pain to rotate the screen all over to see what you are doing. Thx


Sjolus
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2010.05.04 10:26:00 - [291]
 

Baww, where's todays scrumcycle? :(

JeanLuc Blindtard
Posted - 2010.05.04 11:23:00 - [292]
 

Ok quick post before I forget about it :)

After a mine/extractor is empty the route is still up.

These is the same for transiting. I've let all my mines dry up but under the routes tab they still show as outgoing (or transiting where is the case).

Same thing for storage btw. Nothing comes in anymore but it is still showing as incoming.

I think it should automatically delete when the mine is no longer producing goods. :)




Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.05.04 11:51:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: JeanLuc Blindtard
Ok quick post before I forget about it :)

After a mine/extractor is empty the route is still up.

These is the same for transiting. I've let all my mines dry up but under the routes tab they still show as outgoing (or transiting where is the case).

Same thing for storage btw. Nothing comes in anymore but it is still showing as incoming.

I think it should automatically delete when the mine is no longer producing goods. :)


Not sure that I agree with that. My normal cycle for working is:

- setup an extractor field
- survey and pick the 24h option (I want a 20h option)
- route everything
- wait 24h
- come back, survey again, no need to route again
- (rarely) move extractors

If routes deleted themselves, I would be looking at double the number of clicks each day to manage extractors. Right now, you can setup a basic strip-mine in about 30 minutes, then only spend maybe 10 minutes per day maintaining it.

My estimates based on current costs is that if you're moving extractors more often then every 10-14 days, you're going to lose money.

Xenofarion
Gallente
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
Posted - 2010.05.04 13:08:00 - [294]
 

My points:

  • The survey times need to be redone imo. Either make it a variable slider (in 1h steps) or other time scales. The jump between 5h and 24h is way to steep (Not that 5h is useful for anyone with a Job rl).


  • We WILL need a grouping option for surveying and routing. Else PI will just become "click-o-mania". I just have one Planet with 15 harvesters atm, but it's already a major PITA to manage it all in my opinion.


As far as I can see, "overdue" harvested materials (e.g. Factory can just take 50 units more, but next cycle there are 600 incoming) get wasted, correct? (i.e. 550 units lost)

I failed to set up a storage facility between factory and harvesters as "buffer" since I wasn't able to route materials out of the storage facility on an automatic basis.

Also, IMO it would be a great idea to enable general routing for Storage facilities, Command Centers and Starbases, too.

Imagine following Setup:
Harvesters --> Factory --> Storage Facility --> Starbase.

If I could route the storage to the starbase now, the starbase would get filled until it's full and the overdue products remain in the storage, so I don't have to send them to the starbase manually every time (and perhaps leading to a bursting full storage, but empty starbase).

Bugs:

  • If you plant a command center, tear it down and want to build a new one, you get the error "can't put up more than one", although the old one is definitely gone

  • "There was a problem accessing [system] VIII", when I try to enter Planet Mode. The whole Ship Health bar thingy, modules and brackets disappear after this error until reboot or successful entering of an other planet. My colony is abandoned Confused


just my two cents

Equto
Posted - 2010.05.04 13:33:00 - [295]
 

Edited by: Equto on 04/05/2010 17:57:36
Originally by: Jim Luc
Originally by: Equto
Originally by: Jim Luc


-snip-



Yeah - I understand the reasoning behind the 30 second timer, and I don't have experience designing server architecture, however I would think they could separate the PI from the rest of EVE - saving the current state of the planets (and in the future, stations) to an external server - and then sending everything it has to the main server every 30 seconds, or even ever minute. You can even still have a submit button, which can act as a "polite" buffer. The developers can also quickly create a catch so someone spamming a button won't keep sending the server requests every time they press a button.

-snip-

I understand you logic jim luc however that would mean having to buy anywhere from 10-50 new servers to stick in a separate farm in order to maintain one function as well as a possible entire rewrite of the code. Since I assume you are a programmer I think you understand the problems with entire code rewrites at this time in a development cycle and how much easier a simple countdown clock/image would be.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
Posted - 2010.05.04 14:15:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc


At fanfest and in numerous interviews comparisons were made with Sim City and Civilization - that their goal was to give it a similar vibe.



Civ and Sim City are not RTS games. Civilization is a TBS and I have no idea what Sim City is. RTS denotes something like Supreme Commander, C&C, Homeworld, Company Of Heroes, Starcraft 2 and so forth.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.04 15:39:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Terranid Meester
Originally by: Jim Luc


At fanfest and in numerous interviews comparisons were made with Sim City and Civilization - that their goal was to give it a similar vibe.



Civ and Sim City are not RTS games. Civilization is a TBS and I have no idea what Sim City is. RTS denotes something like Supreme Commander, C&C, Homeworld, Company Of Heroes, Starcraft 2 and so forth.


You say tomato, I say hippopotamus! Very Happy

Basically I'm looking for a slick navigation, easy to understand layout, simple flow of products - no need for me to print a bunch of spreadsheets unless I get much MUCH more advanced and want to make the billions instead of the millions. Currently an external spreadsheet is needed just to decipher what produces what. This is unacceptable.

Also, I liked the idea of "farming" my own unique little pocket of planet. Rule like a nice leader, or with tyranny.... Currently it's planet mining for uber-nerds.

I do love the planets though, I think they upped the resolution, but on the closest zoom they should up the res a bit more. Cool

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.05.04 15:44:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Xenofarion
As far as I can see, "overdue" harvested materials (e.g. Factory can just take 50 units more, but next cycle there are 600 incoming) get wasted, correct? (i.e. 550 units lost)


I setup (3) test planets last night to test this out. Here's the stats after 10 hours on a Gas Planet where I'm making Oxygen. I won't have final numbers for another 14-16 hours.

A) extractors -> processor -> storage (2501 per 15 minutes)
- 240 units of Oxygen produced

An unbuffered setup where extractors directly feed a processor. Since I'm not pulling more then 3000/15m, I'm not overloading the processor. But when an extractor tries to shove its 380-420 units/15m into the processor, I suspect that overage is getting lost rather then rolled into the next cycle's buffer.

B) extractors -> storage -> processor -> storage (2461 per 15 min)
- 300 units of Oxygen produced

This planet, where the extractors feed a storage silo, is producing faster then planet A. Even though we're pulling *less* units per cycle.

The bad part about this setup is that I have to online the extractors, then wait 15 minutes before I can *easily* route product out of the storage and into the processor.

If processors could be setup so that you tell them "get your materials from this storage location", then you could configure everything all at once.

C) extractors -> storage -> processor -> storage (4093 per 15 min)
- 360 units of Oxygen produced, 35,534 raw Noble Gas in the storage buffer

Planet C is a bigger setup where I'm harvesting way more Noble Gas then I can process per cycle, so there's a lot of raw materials building up in the buffer storage. In fact, it will take about 32 hours for the processor to process all of the gas that I'll be harvesting in a 24h period.

That's actually a good thing, because it means that I can wait past the current 24h extractor period and the processor will keep working. So I have plenty of time to resurvey my extractors and start them up again.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.05.04 16:58:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Scrapyard Bob
I setup (3) test planets last night to test this out. Here's the stats after 10 hours on a Gas Planet where I'm making Oxygen. I won't have final numbers for another 14-16 hours.

A) extractors -> processor -> storage (2501 per 15 minutes)
- 240 units of Oxygen produced

An unbuffered setup where extractors directly feed a processor. Since I'm not pulling more then 3000/15m, I'm not overloading the processor. But when an extractor tries to shove its 380-420 units/15m into the processor, I suspect that overage is getting lost rather then rolled into the next cycle's buffer.


Yes it gets lost.

Quote:
B) extractors -> storage -> processor -> storage (2461 per 15 min)
- 300 units of Oxygen produced

This planet, where the extractors feed a storage silo, is producing faster then planet A. Even though we're pulling *less* units per cycle.

Since we're not loosing out harvesting cycles, yes.

Quote:
The bad part about this setup is that I have to online the extractors, then wait 15 minutes before I can *easily* route product out of the storage and into the processor.


It's not actually bad as you do it only once.

Quote:
If processors could be setup so that you tell them "get your materials from this storage location", then you could configure everything all at once.


That is the way I wish it work, and remove the inner storage from processors altogether.
Just place source materials along with results to the routing (second) tab and allow to setup incoming routes from there. There could be restriction to have at least single unit of desirable item in storage for route to activate, but it's all a minor annoyances.

Sanche Tehkeli
Gallente
Bionesis Technologies
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.05.04 17:03:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Scrapyard Bob
Originally by: Xenofarion
As far as I can see, "overdue" harvested materials (e.g. Factory can just take 50 units more, but next cycle there are 600 incoming) get wasted, correct? (i.e. 550 units lost)


I setup (3) test planets last night to test this out. Here's the stats after 10 hours on a Gas Planet where I'm making Oxygen. I won't have final numbers for another 14-16 hours.

A) extractors -> processor -> storage (2501 per 15 minutes)
- 240 units of Oxygen produced

An unbuffered setup where extractors directly feed a processor. Since I'm not pulling more then 3000/15m, I'm not overloading the processor. But when an extractor tries to shove its 380-420 units/15m into the processor, I suspect that overage is getting lost rather then rolled into the next cycle's buffer.

B) extractors -> storage -> processor -> storage (2461 per 15 min)
- 300 units of Oxygen produced

This planet, where the extractors feed a storage silo, is producing faster then planet A. Even though we're pulling *less* units per cycle.

The bad part about this setup is that I have to online the extractors, then wait 15 minutes before I can *easily* route product out of the storage and into the processor.

If processors could be setup so that you tell them "get your materials from this storage location", then you could configure everything all at once.

C) extractors -> storage -> processor -> storage (4093 per 15 min)
- 360 units of Oxygen produced, 35,534 raw Noble Gas in the storage buffer

Planet C is a bigger setup where I'm harvesting way more Noble Gas then I can process per cycle, so there's a lot of raw materials building up in the buffer storage. In fact, it will take about 32 hours for the processor to process all of the gas that I'll be harvesting in a 24h period.

That's actually a good thing, because it means that I can wait past the current 24h extractor period and the processor will keep working. So I have plenty of time to resurvey my extractors and start them up again.


That's the way I do, it works well. In fact, if you're casual to PI (not logged in all the time with eyes on every planetary stuff) then you have to use buffers to not waste anything. On the contrary, the tense flow (direct E - P - P) could work (you save PG and cpu) if you're focused on PI and monitor it all the time.

That's up to the players, and it's good you can choose to do PI according to your playstyle.


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