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HarrietMiers
Helljumpers
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2010.04.27 04:37:00 - [151]
 

Here is what I believe is the foundation of our disagreement Liang: You think that SC's are "uncounterable" as you put it on page 1.

I do not. You just need some planning, friends, and a cyno (or three.)

Where is the problem?

- Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.04.27 04:38:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: HarrietMiers
Here is what I believe is the foundation of our disagreement Liang: You think that SC's are "uncounterable" as you put it on page 1.

I do not. You just need some planning, friends, and a cyno (or three.)

Where is the problem?

- Liang


No, I think that SCs are much harder to counter in low sec due to so many of the "counters" being off the table.

-Liang

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.04.27 04:44:00 - [153]
 

Liang-

Would you be amicable to either of my two earlier suggestions? SCs being able to be ECMed/damped while in lowsec, or no SC able to fit remote reps while in lowsec?

Viper said he thought those were reasonable ideas. Frankly I think that's as far as SC lowsec changes need to go. How about you?

HarrietMiers
Helljumpers
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2010.04.27 04:50:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: HarrietMiers on 27/04/2010 04:53:11
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: HarrietMiers
Here is what I believe is the foundation of our disagreement Liang: You think that SC's are "uncounterable" as you put it on page 1.

I do not. You just need some planning, friends, and a cyno (or three.)

Where is the problem?

- Liang


Bait, a hic, and a cyno. What's the big deal?

No, I think that SCs are much harder to counter in low sec due to so many of the "counters" being off the table.

-Liang


Bait, a hic, and a cyno. What's the big deal?


Edit - It also just occurred to me that these things drop all the time in low sec. They rarely even make COAD threads about then anymore.

Mistress Suffering
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2010.04.27 05:37:00 - [155]
 

I suspect Viper is just worried some CCP random who doesn't actually play with clueful groups will read this and become confused.

Supercaps die perfectly easily in lowsec. I haven't found them to be any harder to kill there than in 0.0. If anything, they're easier to kill in lowsec because they can't hide under cynojammers, which is the actual gamebreak (hi, you have to kill me with subcaps only in under 15 mins when I turn my hardeners on and log).

If you want to kill caps, pull out your caps and fight them. If you just want to fight subcaps all the time, welcome to your life as a highsec griefer.


Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.27 05:39:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Mistress Suffering
I suspect Viper is just worried some CCP random who doesn't actually play with clueful groups will read this and become confused.


Since that's basically everyone in game design and balance, yep.

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.27 06:43:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Morgs44
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe


You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights?

Really?

Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum.


Come on buddy, dropping a single carrier cant be compared to dropping a sc.


I wasn't there but, I'm not going to lie, it was overkill.

So was 7 bs 1 t3 a couple others and a triage archon for 2 BS. That's the way the game is, sometimes you get blobbed, sometimes you're the blobber, once in a while you get a nice fair fight.


Here we have the crux, even outnumbering the enemy by more than 4 * the manpower and firepower they STILL decide to hotdrop an Archon into the fight, cue MS being counter dropped and they have the cheek to complain about it.

This is the problem within EVE, idiots that want their km's without having to fight for them, wha wha it's not fair ban MS from low sec so we can blob everyone to death with impunity.

Live by the sword, die by the sword, it is nearly as bad as the fail smartbombing battleship wooses demanding that they ban hot drops altogether so that they can carry on with their shuttle massacres.

pathetic.


Cappin Walka
Posted - 2010.04.27 07:31:00 - [158]
 

Titans need bigger drone bays
They should have been compensated for losing AOE DD

Morgs44
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2010.04.27 07:34:00 - [159]
 

Hay debbie harrio have you actually read the thread or are just having a big cry cause you like to?

No one is saying ban sc from low sec, just give them a risk for doing it as its a "I win button" atm.
CCP seem to want the game play in the different security levels different thats why titans cant DD in low sec.
Allowing another Super capital with just as much strength and no restriction doesn't seem...right?

Sure we've had 1 or 2 sc dropped on us 4 or 5 time and lost a few ships, so what thats pvp. But its going to decrease the amount of ppl engaging in comabt because they might think twice about them dropping a sc and ending the fight (either dieing or running) which is not good.

Reminds me of the falcon problem, everyman and his dog had a falcon alt with him and fights just became a big ecmfest. A simple change and they are still every useful but not horded.

My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.

Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.27 07:46:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Morgs44
My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.


Laughing

Khors
El Barco Pirata
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:09:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Morgs44
The only thing sc have to worry about is the HIC's
and you'll need a few of them. Cause if they want to leave they can just nuet the capp out of them or drone blob them and leave.

And if half ya fleet is in HIC how are you going to get th dps to kill'em
Like i said before this is low sec not 0.0
Would you like us to all be blue??


Yeah, because neuting isn't allowed in 0.0.
And in 0.0, noone primaries a hictor or are able to put their drones on them.
They also got more dps out there.
And anchorable bubbles is often deployed mid fight ofc. Noone ever fires on them either.

Tulisin Dragonflame
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:20:00 - [162]
 

One of the nice things about EVE's freedom and drive towards as much realism as possible in a space sim is that we can often use real-world analogies to demonstrate game concepts. Because EVE's goal is to closely emulate "real life" intensity in risk and decision-making, while still allowing room for fun, these considerations of "Why doesn't this happen in real life" can give us insight into why things happen in the game world.

With that in mind, just why doesn't, say the US in real life use its carriers to police pirates in commandeered fishing boats?

It isn't, as some people in this thread have stated, because they fear some sort of risk in selecting those targets. Instead, it is because the allocation of such a huge resource is so sluggish and expensive that it makes it un-viable. Application of large-scale weaponry in EVE should follow the same path. It should be prohibitively annoying/expensive to engage targets way under your weight class.

Part of this, of course, is due to the predominance of kill value in EVE. A killmail has a huge time/monetary value (in that people are willing to go pay and wait a lot for a kill), and is valued even more than life itself (EVE life is little more than time/money).

In short, the issue is really more with the cheapness (again, time-wise and monetarily) of hotdropping than with the idea that an expensive ship can destroy a cheap one. If you want to engage a single target with your three supercarriers, fine, but you should have to think for a moment about the cost/hassle of doing so, instead of "lulz bored!"

I'm *very* much opposed to hard limits like banning supercaps from hisec. The solution is not to restrict freedom outright, but rather to incentivize (or de-incentivize) decisions which lead to behaviors that are harmful (in this case, the ability to easily and cheaply drop overwhelming firepower on opposition with little recourse).

tl;dr : Make it more of a hassle to use a supercap to kill battlecruisers, not by changing combat, but by changing logistics.

Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:24:00 - [163]
 

I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.

Tulisin Dragonflame
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:28:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.


You do, without knowing it, because your ideas of how things are supposed to work are grounded in the reality in which you were raised. This is why new players instinctively find EVE "unfair" (because it absolutely is, by real life standards) before they acclimate to EVE's own set of rules, morals, and philosophies.

In the end, games always end up, on some level, being a metaphor for real life. Ignoring examples set by real life because "This is a game, real life obviously never applies" is far more unrealistic than the opposite.

Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:30:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.


You do, without knowing it, because your ideas of how things are supposed to work are grounded in the reality in which you were raised. This is why new players instinctively find EVE "unfair" (because it absolutely is, by real life standards) before they acclimate to EVE's own set of rules, morals, and philosophies.

In the end, games always end up, on some level, being a metaphor for real life. Ignoring examples set by real life because "This is a game, real life obviously never applies" is far more unrealistic than the opposite.


You're right, I find myself doing this all the time. Thank you for finally pointing this out for me.

Rolling Eyes

Musical Fist
Gallente
NAP Coalition
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:41:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.


You do, without knowing it, because your ideas of how things are supposed to work are grounded in the reality in which you were raised. This is why new players instinctively find EVE "unfair" (because it absolutely is, by real life standards) before they acclimate to EVE's own set of rules, morals, and philosophies.

In the end, games always end up, on some level, being a metaphor for real life. Ignoring examples set by real life because "This is a game, real life obviously never applies" is far more unrealistic than the opposite.


You're right, I find myself doing this all the time. Thank you for finally pointing this out for me.

Rolling Eyes


Now you know we all do this we just dont like to admit it ;) enough sarcasm agree and pay the man

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2010.04.27 08:58:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Dr Karsun on 27/04/2010 09:01:42
Edited by: Dr Karsun on 27/04/2010 08:59:31
How many titans are there... As far as I recall the thread somewhere the eve forums, around 300? I'd guess, now that making a supercap is far, far harder than it was before since you have to have sov or something? Not sure how it works, I know it's far harder and the prices went up.

Looking at eve arena there were only 11 pages of deaths of moms around eve. 20x11 that's 220 moms were shot down (till 2007). Not that many, but on the other hand I doubt such a kill mail would not be submitted to a board. So, within 4 years of time, only 220 shot down that gives us an average of what... 55 a year and less than 5 a month. Really not many, and that's just an average while I guess most were shot down rather during the recent months.

A SC costs like 20b for hull only on retail, a titan I guess 75? That's almost 4 times more. So I'd guess we don't have more than 4xtitans = moms total. Some of the accounts owning them are surely expired or not used at all. Judging that we have 300.000 eve subscribers... Lets say the 500 moms flying around town shouldn't be a problem for any low sec roams. And besides... IF you see a mom jump in. First - you see a cyno. Second - you see a mom. And then you have to wait untill the mom with its insane scan res targets you. Guess what? I guess with a bit of luck any battleship even with lag issues would be able to warp of OR disengage and jump to the other side of the gate.

Next time I cry that I lose a carrier to a mom in low sec, remind me I said all of the above :D

Sellmewarez
Posted - 2010.04.27 09:28:00 - [168]
 

Posting in a thread which has now become people who ***** about getting outblobbed in 0.0 defending their right to blob lowsec.

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.27 09:51:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Morgs44
Hay debbie harrio have you actually read the thread or are just having a big cry cause you like to?

No one is saying ban sc from low sec, just give them a risk for doing it as its a "I win button" atm.
CCP seem to want the game play in the different security levels different thats why titans cant DD in low sec.
Allowing another Super capital with just as much strength and no restriction doesn't seem...right?

Sure we've had 1 or 2 sc dropped on us 4 or 5 time and lost a few ships, so what thats pvp. But its going to decrease the amount of ppl engaging in comabt because they might think twice about them dropping a sc and ending the fight (either dieing or running) which is not good.

Reminds me of the falcon problem, everyman and his dog had a falcon alt with him and fights just became a big ecmfest. A simple change and they are still every useful but not horded.

My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.



Yes I have read the thread, blobbers blob 2 BS's and are outplayed so they drop on archon into the battle even more blob, then cry when they get pwnd by a SC, they then had the option of dropping on top of that but cry instead and want SC's banned from low sec or nerfed so they can carry on with their oh so 1337 tactics.

They try and blob an alliance that is renowned for having veteran players that know their game, they fail at intel and they deserve everything they get for being idiots.

Good enough?

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.04.27 09:56:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Deja Thoris on 27/04/2010 09:56:52
Intersting thread.
Let me say (to the howls of derision from my alliance mates and viper) that I think supercarriers are overpowered at the moment. However, the only thing I would reduce is the damage. The current output is absolutely fearsome. With a few on field remote reps from a carrier become useless since you can hardly lock and cycle before a carrier pops. The ewar immunity and good buffer should (imo) stay since the top ships in the game should be a worthy trophy.
However, before this turns into a balance discussion I'll throw my opinion into the pot. Take it or leave it, but know that I have orchastrated and executed no small number of mothership and supercarrier kills in lowsec. I also flew a nyx in its incarnation as a mothership. I do at least have a clue what I'm talking about.

The OP is basically moaning about being ganked by overwhelming force. Just like his alliance does day in and out to the members of the State War Academy and Center for Advanced Studies in their fearsome hull tanked myrmidions, kestrels and mighty badgers. Same thing goes when you are on the receiving end, its just a question of scale. And this goes for Bellum "I fight outnumbered too" Eternus. You sit in your little lowsec enclave and scout every surrounding gate just incase a ship capable of posing danger comes so you can play the old dock and smack routine. You all mastered the art of riskless ganking so you are a bit disturbed by victims adapting and suddenly you have become the prey.

You fit nice bling because its a pretty low risk venture, after all you have all the gates scouted...right? Now, suddenly, theres a bit of risk involved. What to do? Conventional scouts don't quite cut it since the caps may be far away. You could drop a sensor booster and fit a ship scanner to check for a cyno but that would mean your chance of locking those pesky bantams is reduced. There may also be a cloaked recon around or even a little kessie waiting to warp in. You could whine about it on the forums; or: You could cultivate relations with people who dislike said sc pilots or just plain people who thirst for a killmail and lay a trap. Outlandish idea I know. Theres plenty of entities around who would jump at the chance to kill supercarriers and baiting em out should be easy since their use is so prevalent that they are absolutely RUINING lowsec ganking errr pvp.

I said it in the assembly hall thread about the mobile cyno jammer, you reap what you sow. People adapted and they bypassed your scouts. You can't even pwn **** in your archon by station hugging now because a small handful of supercarriers can kill you before you deagg. (And to be fair, even before the advent of sc's we killed an inordinate number of your caps with sensor boosted dreads designed to end the life of station hugging caps within the required cooldown period) You brought it on yourself with your playstyle and now people have adapted. (And having said this the last cap of Bellums alliance we killed I decided to subcap it and you self destructed because we lacked the damge required to kill you in the requisite time) Perhaps instead of petitioning the forum population you should adjust your playstyle and accept that you are a small fish in a very large pond. Hell, CH and others know that there are entities that can smite their supercap force with little effort so we try to play it smart. I think we all know that our pixels will explode one day, when that day comes you won't see us running to the forums trying to garner sympathy and game changes.
Me, if two people kept dropping me in supercarriers I'd have such a raging hard-on because I'd know that their losses would soon be adorning my killboard. But I guess it's easier to play the victim and complain that in a multi player game I may have leet pvp skills and SP but somehow its beyond me to group together with other like minded individuals ...

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.27 09:59:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Originally by: Morgs44
My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.


Laughing


That also made me chuckle, way to go comparing a cloaky jamming ship that should be chased off the field as soon as it appears to a supercarrier.

The falcon nerf was due to idiots that had no idea of tactics and no vision to be able think abstractly too.

So I suppose they do have that in common.

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.04.27 10:00:00 - [172]
 

Wall of text continues!

...individuals with the goal of ending the life of a couple of ships.

tl;dr? People adapted, you became predictable, farmable loot pinatas, your turn to adapt.


Anyways, thats my take on it from the other side of the coin so to speak.

Cappin Walka
Posted - 2010.04.27 10:38:00 - [173]
 

Excellent post Deja Thoris

If I am ever accused of murder, I would like to hire you as my litigator

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2010.04.27 11:23:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Sellmewarez
Posting in a thread which has now become people who ***** about getting outblobbed in 0.0 defending their right to blob lowsec.


LOL

Its fairly natural for 0.0 pilots to blob. You dont join a 3000 man alliance for the excellent 1v1 and small gang pvp opportunity's.

When you join a 3000 man alliance - You are sacrificing any impact you as an individual will have on the game into the hands of a select few leadership figures

You are told what time to log on. Your performance is monitored with work targets. If you are caught shirking your responsibility you are puinished. You will stop playing a game you pay for citing "work" or "kid trouble" so you wont be hounded why your online and not on the CTA. If you talk at the wrong time on comms you are insulted. You turn up when told, you go to systems you are told, you warp where you are told, and you shoot people in the order you are told. Your a dirty little slave and you love it!

In exchange you get to sit in 1000 man lag fests waiting for your modules to activate in the hope of being be pilot number 210 on a titan killmail (which you can load up every now and then whilst at work) and wonder where the officer loot went???. Oh and you get to see your leadership flying around in MOMs, Titans, and 10 bill faction ships paid for by your hard work taking moons in the above mentioned lag fests.

Im sure a lot of you would love to post to tell me how great it is and your not at all slaves but your alliance does not allow you to post on the forums :-)

SKUNK

Saarinn
Posted - 2010.04.27 11:46:00 - [175]
 

in all honesty I have no issue popping lowsec -10s that camp station undocks with carrier reps on them. Or smartbombing BSes sitting on undocks/gates. Or shredding a triaged carrier trying to keep these kind of pilots alive.

Is it overkill? Yes
Does it get emo tears from these guys I watch smack noobie cruisers in local they gank? Yes
Is there ridiculous risk in jumping a mom into a trap? Yes
Are the tears worth it? Definitely

I don't think lowsec should be safe, Not for carebears, and not for Pirates using Dock Range Carriers to protect them.

Caleb Fury
Amarr
Reloaded.
Posted - 2010.04.27 12:09:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Sellmewarez
Posting in a thread which has now become people who ***** about getting outblobbed in 0.0 defending their right to blob lowsec.


LOL

Its fairly natural for 0.0 pilots to blob. You dont join a 3000 man alliance for the excellent 1v1 and small gang pvp opportunity's.

When you join a 3000 man alliance - You are sacrificing any impact you as an individual will have on the game into the hands of a select few leadership figures

You are told what time to log on. Your performance is monitored with work targets. If you are caught shirking your responsibility you are puinished. You will stop playing a game you pay for citing "work" or "kid trouble" so you wont be hounded why your online and not on the CTA. If you talk at the wrong time on comms you are insulted. You turn up when told, you go to systems you are told, you warp where you are told, and you shoot people in the order you are told. Your a dirty little slave and you love it!

In exchange you get to sit in 1000 man lag fests waiting for your modules to activate in the hope of being be pilot number 210 on a titan killmail (which you can load up every now and then whilst at work) and wonder where the officer loot went???. Oh and you get to see your leadership flying around in MOMs, Titans, and 10 bill faction ships paid for by your hard work taking moons in the above mentioned lag fests.

Im sure a lot of you would love to post to tell me how great it is and your not at all slaves but your alliance does not allow you to post on the forums :-)

SKUNK


Thank you for making me damn near choke on my Cocoa Pebbles. Very Happy

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.04.27 12:21:00 - [177]
 

Deja-

Good post, but I'd like to re-iterate a few key points.

Please don't lump me in with the "waaa, I got hot dropped" crowd. I'm not in this thread complaining about that. I just think that with no ability to break a SC spider tank with ECM that the RR capability of SCs is a little OP *in lowsec*.

TBH I think Viper and I have come to agree that with one of two changes (able to be ECMed *or* no RR from SCs) that SCs would be balanced.

I agree that the DPS from SCs is indeed fearsome but I just don't see that as much of an issue. I *agree* that if someone drops 6 SCs on a single carrier or even a few carriers, those carriers should die, and quickly. Frankly I'm glad to see some DPS designed into capital ships for once. It's about time.

As for cynos and hot drops- one of CCP's worst parts of Eve's game design is local and its ease of use for intel, coupled with the limiting factor of the cellular structure of systems and gates. There is almost no chance to hide your forces and set traps for people or use 'terrain' to your advantage in Eve like you can with other games.

The hot drop is the answer to this limitation. I get that, and I don't begrudge anyone from doing so. I will say that I respect/give style points to those who can do a lot with a small amount of force and even more to those who go out of their way to do as much as possible with as few ships as possible. Where I'm not impressed is with those groups that can *only* accomplish kills via the blob.

If your only skill/capability is more numbers then you have no skill at all. Am I wrong? I'm not saying I never 'blob' or never make sure my risks are minimized as much as possible, as that's just smart playing, but when players never engage unless it's 2-3:1 in their favor that just reeks of fail if that's the only play in your book.

Of course there's no real value in "e-honor" or anything, but those who PVP and their peers know what's up. Those players who hang it out there and pull it off are admired, even if it's begrudgingly and those who take the easy path are looked down upon.

I know better than to run 3-4 carriers into a battle when the opposition has 3-4 SC on tap at any given time. It seems others (Kanga) just haven't figured that out yet. A few more carrier losses should do the trick. YARRRR!!

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.04.27 13:42:00 - [178]
 

Hot dropping is a one trick pony. Remember the guys that drop you. Eventually they will have to get original or fight fair. The problem is people keep giving them kills so they keep doing it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.04.27 16:29:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Liang-

Would you be amicable to either of my two earlier suggestions? SCs being able to be ECMed/damped while in lowsec, or no SC able to fit remote reps while in lowsec?

Viper said he thought those were reasonable ideas. Frankly I think that's as far as SC lowsec changes need to go. How about you?


Like I said - the biggest problem is the lack of ways of interdicting them combined with their what the **** absurd DPS. Keep supercaps in 0.0 where they belong, IMO... but I will settle for them simply not being more powerful in lowsec than in 0.0. Neither of these two strike me as addressing the concern of them being more powerful. Maybe if you wanted to make them completely unable to RECEIVE RR in low sec... ?

-Liang

Nomad Storm
The Wandering Path
Posted - 2010.04.27 17:08:00 - [180]
 

Answers from the SC pilots remind me of the nano nerf for some reason.


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