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Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.05 20:11:00 - [451]
 

Originally by: Mackenna


Before I get into this, try to keep two things in mind...




Will do, but while i respond, understand that from my point of view , the two are closely linked and some of my response my be based on that


Originally by: Mackenna

The vast majority of you wanting local to go as dark ... every night with little to no results you like.



Some might of course quit because of this, but it would probably mostly be alt, because there would be no point any longuer to have afk cloaker alt.

As to scanning belt without end, with no local, I will get more odds to catch a target because of that target not docking up/cloaking up/going to pos as soon as I enter the system (unless of course the target have other mean of knowing of my arrival ... which is just fine).

Originally by: Mackenna

Local actually works in your favor as a cloaky ganker . The unenlightened/lazy/overconfident/incompetent players that are the bread and butter of your killboard



Exaclty, and this is why we are asking for local to be nerfed, we recognize that the way we use local can be unfair. By removing local, you recognize its gonna be more difficult for a "agressor" to find a target and I agree.

In the same way that by removing local, you render afk cloaking totaly useless and uneffective, and therefore ... completly nerfed without nerfing the cloak itself.



Originally by: Mackenna

Remove Local and even the incompetent players will see the value of blobbing the hell out of every rat they want to kill.



Exactly, AND that also mean it will promote teamwork and promote the creation of relationshion

If when NPCING the pilot of an alliance stay close to each other, teach each other setups, and help each other to repel a small invader, they will improve each other skill and will be much better prepared to handle an full scale attack

they will form bonds of trust in their ability to fly a ship properly, and their friends to be able to do the same.



At the moment, people are self centered because they dont need any other people to help them survive in 0.0 , hence why on a daily basis people are able to catch carrier running anomaly solo , because the pilot only trusted in local intel, had no plan of exit, and no backup plan ...



Originally by: Mackenna

Gates would be watched by pilots in shifts.


Exactly, thus giving a definate advantage to the defender of any space because the attacker will never really be sure what is ahead of him ( unless working with a lot of people and using lots of scouts/spys).

that would aslo give a second life to black ops battleships because with this mechanic, they will be able to jump covert ships unknown to the defender in their system, in preparation to an attack.


Originally by: Mackenna

Not only would it make your job harder as a consensual pvper, it would also make fleet/gang combat when roaming a joke, as entire fleets can pass each other in warp unaware of the each other's presence.




Yes It would probably make it slightly harder, but not by much, because in most cases these day, fight happen at static object know to both side (SBU, TCU, POS, STATION, GATE), and those are easily scouted

It would defenatly improve the use of scouts and spys, because you will need intel you work for to be able to make an engagement to your advantage ... not only a FC being able to read local ...

AS for fleet passing each other unaware of each other presence, well you could use D-scan, and, SPACE is HUGE, doesnt it make it more sence that 2 fleet could pass right by each other


Finnaly, while steal might hinder easy combat, i also promote planned operation and preparation for both side.

But the visibility that local intel give is so massive, that it hinder combat by the sheer amount of intel it give, limitating fight to number game ...

I could add a lot, but this is already a wall of text

Valadeya

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.08.05 21:24:00 - [452]
 

Originally by: Mackenna


Breaking news: Cloaking devices don't work in Wormholes or Empire space.


werent you bothered by "afk" cloaking, which is pointless in empire where you need a wardec to kill people and in wormwholes, where you dont need it due to absence of the local??

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.05 22:22:00 - [453]
 

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

Some might of course quit because of this, but it would probably mostly be alt...



So you'd fly without a cloaking module you say?

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

As to scanning belt without end, with no local, I will get more odds to catch a target because of that target not docking up/cloaking up/going to pos as soon as I enter the system (unless of course the target have other mean of knowing of my arrival ... which is just fine).



Wrong. All you're going to find in that scenario is a series of gangs. Either on the gate, running anomalies, or actively looking for combat. Take away local and no one is going to run anything solo any more.

They practically don't now.. only the people who think local is as important as you do are the people you are killing right now.

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

In the same way that by removing local, you render afk cloaking totaly useless and uneffective, and therefore ... completly nerfed without nerfing the cloak itself.



I'd be willing to bet you 100 million isk right now that if local were removed tomorrow that you would:

a) continue using a covert ops ship to hunt people.
b) continue going afk while cloaked in enemy systems while you wait for the right kind of target.

And if I caught you doing it and took you to task for it? You'd say "Everyone is so Blobby that I have to do this to find targets!" ...just as you already have.

Same effect.
Same behavior.
Same rationalization.

Originally by: Mackenna

Remove Local and even the incompetent players will see the value of blobbing the hell out of every rat they want to kill.



Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

Exactly, AND that also mean it will promote teamwork and promote the creation of relationshion



You'll say anything to promote your agenda.. even when you contradict yourself. Yesterday, it was: "I have to afk cloak because BLAST refuses to fight in anything but a mindless blob" Today, apparently, blobs are good, teamwork building exercises.


Originally by: Mackenna

Gates would be watched by pilots in shifts.


Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

Exactly, thus giving a definate advantage to the defender of any space because the attacker will never really be sure what is ahead of him ( unless working with a lot of people and using lots of scouts/spys).

that would also give a second life to black ops battleships because with this mechanic, they will be able to jump covert ships unknown to the defender in their system, in preparation to an attack.



We'd see whole sub-cap fleets cloaking on arrival and marshaling in a hostile system to shoot a pos, a TCU, or an outpost.

Of course, you wouldn't care about that..because you live in an NPC station that you didn't have to build, don't have to maintain, and can't have shot out from under you. You're not thinking about the game as a whole.. you're only thinking of how cool it would be if YOU were even less visible than you are now.


Xorv
Posted - 2010.08.05 22:35:00 - [454]
 

Originally by: Mackenna

(a) This thread is about AFK-Cloaking, not Local.
(b) We're only talking about local because you and others have cited it as the reason you behave the way you do.



Mackenna the only way your going to separate Local Chat from a discussion on AFK cloaking is to start a private convo with just you and Voith.

As you have been told over and over again Ad nauseam, AFK cloaking is a direct result of the mechanics of Local Chat. Therefore any discussion regarding AFK cloaking is going to also involve Local Chat, whether you wish it to or not.

But perhaps we should start another thread specifically about Local Chat, as it's a much more pressing issue than AFK cloakers, which is seen by the vast majority of posters in this thread as a non issue or a positive thing given other poor game mechanics.. ie. Local Chat intel.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.05 23:10:00 - [455]
 

Originally by: Xorv

Mackenna the only way your going to separate Local Chat from a discussion on AFK cloaking is to start a private convo with just you and Voith.



There are a lot more people willing to discuss it than just Voith and I. Their posts are overshadowed by the prolific posts of people who would rather talk about Local Chat in a thread about AFK cloaking.

Originally by: Xorv

As you have been told over and over again Ad nauseam, AFK cloaking is a direct result of the mechanics of Local Chat. Therefore any discussion regarding AFK cloaking is going to also involve Local Chat, whether you wish it to or not.



The possession of a working brain prevents me from accepting something as truth just because a mob of people say it must be so. Doubly-so when it is clearly false and is being used as a conversational roadblock against discussing the topic at hand.

Consider the following, which I've had to explain over and over again:

[a] "Local Intel" doesn't exist in Wormhole space, yet people still cloak there and they do so while AFK.

[b] If "Local Intel" were removed from all of 0.0 space, you'd still cloak there...you'd still prefer to do it in a Covert Ops or Recon Ship, and You'd still sit AFK waiting for a juicy target.

What you and these other chuckleheads are bucking for already exists, but you don't use it. You know as well as I do that even if you got your wish and all 0.0 space became as stealthy as wormhole space, you'd use the same exact tactics you use now.

Yet, in the face of this truth, you continue to assert that "Local Intel" is the sole cause of this behavior.

Originally by: Xorv

But perhaps we should start another thread specifically about Local Chat, as it's a much more pressing issue than AFK cloakers, which is seen by the vast majority of posters in this thread as a non issue or a positive thing given other poor game mechanics.. ie. Local Chat intel.


I'd prefer it if you did... but I suspect most of you enjoy polluting this thread with a bunch of nonsense too much to participate in a productive discussion... the fact that you're talking about doing it instead of doing it already speaks volumes.

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.08.05 23:13:00 - [456]
 

Originally by: Mackenna

I'd be willing to bet you 100 million isk right now that if local were removed tomorrow that you would:

a) continue using a covert ops ship to hunt people.
b) continue going afk while cloaked in enemy systems while you wait for the right kind of target.


I bet you 5 bil that I would still hunt down the stupid in a cloak specialized ship. On the other hand continuing to do "b" if local is removed would be useless, no local means you dont have to force the locals into complacence. You clearly dont understand cloaky tactics.

Now leave and bring me back some delicious cheese when you decide to pull your head out of your bum.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.05 23:24:00 - [457]
 

Originally by: Lia'Vael
Originally by: Mackenna

I'd be willing to bet you 100 million isk right now that if local were removed tomorrow that you would:

a) continue using a covert ops ship to hunt people.
b) continue going afk while cloaked in enemy systems while you wait for the right kind of target.


I bet you 5 bil that I would still hunt down the stupid in a cloak specialized ship. On the other hand continuing to do "b" if local is removed would be useless, no local means you dont have to force the locals into complacence. You clearly dont understand cloaky tactics.



You'd do it for a different reason, but you'd still do it. The new reason would be that the amount of stupid people (soloing anomalies) that you're accustomed to finding would plummet, forcing you to sit afk waiting for one.... and oh, look, you still have this alt designed for that....

At some point, you're going to have to face the fact that you prefer consenual PvP for your ship.

You cloak because you don't want to be scanned down by people who are fitted and looking for combat while you wait for the only kind of player you want to engage: someone who isn't fitted or ready for you in most cases.

At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with this.. at all. I'd just prefer that you be honest about it, as it would cause a lot less grief in this discussion.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that you can do this and be functionally immune from any attack, ad infinitum, in 0.0


Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.08.06 00:06:00 - [458]
 

Originally by: Mackenna
Originally by: Lia'Vael
Originally by: Mackenna

I'd be willing to bet you 100 million isk right now that if local were removed tomorrow that you would:

a) continue using a covert ops ship to hunt people.
b) continue going afk while cloaked in enemy systems while you wait for the right kind of target.


I bet you 5 bil that I would still hunt down the stupid in a cloak specialized ship. On the other hand continuing to do "b" if local is removed would be useless, no local means you dont have to force the locals into complacence. You clearly dont understand cloaky tactics.



You'd do it for a different reason, but you'd still do it. The new reason would be that the amount of stupid people (soloing anomalies) that you're accustomed to finding would plummet, forcing you to sit afk waiting for one.... and oh, look, you still have this alt designed for that....

At some point, you're going to have to face the fact that you prefer consenual PvP for your ship.

You cloak because you don't want to be scanned down by people who are fitted and looking for combat while you wait for the only kind of player you want to engage: someone who isn't fitted or ready for you in most cases.

At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with this.. at all. I'd just prefer that you be honest about it, as it would cause a lot less grief in this discussion.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that you can do this and be functionally immune from any attack, ad infinitum, in 0.0


Cloak specialized ships can still go through gates, a cloaky is meant to utilize predatory tactics. If local is killed off you would not sit AFK in one system with you thumb up your ass. Hunting is the greatest feeling in the world, it means you go out for your prey, waiting only works in a few cases.

A cloak doesnt render you immune to damage, also you fail at trying to peg motives. I dont cloak to just avoid probes because lets face it thats just stupid.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.08.06 00:59:00 - [459]
 

Edited by: Xorv on 06/08/2010 00:59:58
Originally by: Mackenna

There are a lot more people willing to discuss it than just Voith and I. Their posts are overshadowed by the prolific posts of people who would rather talk about Local Chat in a thread about AFK cloaking.


Here's some food for thought, I just counted for a laugh and your next reply or Voith's next troll post will make 100 posts in this thread alone in favor of Local Chat and nerfing cloaks by just TWO posters. Prolific Posts indeed! Laughing



Originally by: Mackenna

[a] "Local Intel" doesn't exist in Wormhole space, yet people still cloak there and they do so while AFK.

[b] If "Local Intel" were removed from all of 0.0 space, you'd still cloak there...you'd still prefer to do it in a Covert Ops or Recon Ship, and You'd still sit AFK waiting for a juicy target.



And as others have explained to you, there is more that separates WH Space from Nullsec than just the absence of Local Chat. So, just for starters you need to stop considering it as simply Nullsec without Local Chat.

As to you second point, yes you are correct at least in part, solo and small group players will still use either cloaks, very fast ships, and look to EWAR to help them. Stealth, Speed, and Crowd Control are the universal tools in MMOs for the soloers and small groups to counter those who would outnumber them. This is a good thing, PvP shouldn't just be about numbers and out zerging/blobing your opponent.

Your wrong about the AFK thing, if you don't know the cloaker is there, why do they have any need to be AFK? I see where your going with this... well not hard after a 100 repetitive posts TBH Wink Your looking to create a situation where you can PvE without looking over your shoulder and having to be constantly alert. Well sorry, but I don't think you should have this Nullsec (or anywhere actually). I certainly don't believe that just because you belong to some Sov. holding zerg with a Nap fetish that you should be entitled to this sort of security by default. Although, having numbers like that must certainly help... Probably why your not getting support from a lot of big Nullsec Sov. holder members, because they're proactive and organized and don't have the problems you do with AFK cloakers.

Oh I thought of a reason I might want to AFK cloak after Local Chat is removed... take a phone call, grab some food, take a leak... but guess what? You could fit a cloak on your Nullsec PvE ship and do the same... How's that for balance!


Quixis
Posted - 2010.08.06 01:06:00 - [460]
 

Originally by: Mackenna
The possession of a working brain......


Now I know you're trolling. Laughing

Voith
Posted - 2010.08.06 06:50:00 - [461]
 

Edited by: Voith on 06/08/2010 06:55:28
Lets flip the tables:

You can now probe out Cloakers in w-space.


Now imagine the argument for changing cloaking in K-space was "but... wormhole space doesn't matter!".

Would be really dumb and lazy right?

That is your argument. That you are too stupid or too lazy to bother to spend half an hour to get what you want, and to fix what you claim is wrecking the game. Everyone sees through you.

You're bad players; local is the excuse for your inability to gank.

Avion Saberis
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.06 08:44:00 - [462]
 

People that complain about AFK cloakers are kind of sad, sure the guy is out there but if he's AFK why the hell do you care? Seeing a red in local should be normal in null and low sec, and in empire well only if your at war should you worry. To me you sound like a carebear Zmorana, and i like to hunt carebears, Twisted Evil

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.06 11:57:00 - [463]
 

Originally by: Mackenna


So you'd fly without a cloaking module you say?




I already do, when my gang require certain kind of ships ...I fly them ... but I do like to fly the hound, I like the bomber and I have fun flying it, is it wrong to fly a ship you have fun flying?


Originally by: Mackenna


Wrong. All you're going to find in that scenario is a series of gangs. Either on the gate, running anomalies, or actively looking for combat. Take away local and no one is going to run anything solo any more.

They practically don't now.. only the people who think local is as important as you do are the people you are killing right now.




Exactly right on the first part, All I would indeed find will be series of small gang and

I prefer to hotdrop a small gang with a black ops group than a single player, it is a lot mroe fun and make a lot more sence




Originally by: Mackenna


I'd be willing to bet you 100 million isk right now that if local were removed tomorrow that you would:

a) continue using a covert ops ship to hunt people.
b) continue going afk while cloaked in enemy systems while you wait for the right kind of target.




A) I probably would still use some of the covert ships to hunt people - and why not , I maxed all the revelant skills and I like to fly the bombers and recons, is that wrong?
B) I will never have to be "AFK" in a enemy system, It will be safer and much sanner to log ... and if i am cloaked and waiting for the right kind of target ... mean I am actively looking for it and NOT AFK


Originally by: Mackenna


You'll say anything to promote your agenda.. even when you contradict yourself. Yesterday, it was: "I have to afk cloak because BLAST refuses to fight in anything but a mindless blob" Today, apparently, blobs are good, teamwork building exercises.



There is a difference between a mindless blob that base itself solely on number with pilot flying sheild/armor tanked raven ... current BLAST being a good exemple of this

And a competent blob that is most of the time a smaller blob using competent fitting and strategy ... Pandemic is a good exemple of the second

When it come to disrupting your operation and not killing stuff, I do prefer the afk cloak option , because If I did it the standard way with a gang of 20 people ... you would wait till you got a fleet of 80 to hunt us

With AFK cloak ... the mindless blob does not work ... but a lot of strategy can work to prevent and/or resolvbe the presence of hostile in a system ... I just need a little thinking ... like a lot pointed out before me


Finally, why do you feel living out of a npc station in 0.0 is wrong? It does allow any entity to live there. If mainting station/sov/pos is so troublesome, there is always a few of these npc station in most regions.

If we are so "cool" by living out of a npc station , there is nothing that prevent you from comming back to live to serpentis prime ... except that last time ... that made the system in the top5 best kill system in eve, 23/7, for 3 month ... and we didnt die much

Brandrsun
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.06 13:34:00 - [464]
 

Edited by: Brandrsun on 06/08/2010 13:37:12
You guys still trolling this /thread?

AFK cloaking? Your bothering with somebody thats AFK or otherwise not present on the battlefield? Or is it about local giving away your pressence. in all regards this thread is fail.

TL;DR
fail thread remains fail.

Ps, forgot to mention I have a Anathema. So I kinda do know what i'm talking about.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.06 14:01:00 - [465]
 

Originally by: Xorv

And as others have explained to you, there is more that separates WH Space from Nullsec than just the absence of Local Chat. So, just for starters you need to stop considering it as simply Nullsec without Local Chat.



I started to write a wall of text explaining all that you have missed but I then decided that you're not worth the effort. When you learn to comprehend what is written in front of your face, stop pretending to have read what you obviously haven't, and start participating in the discussion, that may change.


Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.06 14:48:00 - [466]
 

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras
Originally by: Mackenna

So you'd fly without a cloaking module you say?



I already do, when my gang require certain kind of ships ...I fly them ... but I do like to fly the hound, I like the bomber and I have fun flying it, is it wrong to fly a ship you have fun flying?



You're dancing around the question. You know as well as I do that you would still want to do the same exact things you do now IF the reason that you say you do them were removed.

You say that you do this because of Local intel. If Local intel were removed, you'd still do it (and you admit it). Therefore, you're not being honest about your reasons for afk-cloaking.

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

Exactly right on the first part, All I would indeed find will be series of small gang and I prefer to hotdrop a small gang with a black ops group than a single player, it is a lot mroe fun and make a lot more sence



Your killboard (Furious Ratter) says otherwise.


Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

A) I probably would still use some of the covert ships to hunt people - and why not , I maxed all the revelant skills and I like to fly the bombers and recons, is that wrong?
B) I will never have to be "AFK" in a enemy system, It will be safer and much sanner to log ... and if i am cloaked and waiting for the right kind of target ... mean I am actively looking for it and NOT AFK




You already do this now. You're going to try to tell me that as the available target list gets smaller (due to local being removed) you'll be more active? Come on. You're back peddling badly.


Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

There is a difference between a mindless blob that base itself solely on number with pilot flying sheild/armor tanked raven ... current BLAST being a good exemple of this

And a competent blob that is most of the time a smaller blob using competent fitting and strategy ... Pandemic is a good exemple of the second



Ahh, so you're just looking for an excuse to insult my alliance. I'm sure I could dig up plenty of fail fits from PL blobs/gangs if I looked. You've been trying to bait me into a Godfathers vs. BLAST nerdfest since my first post.

If you take the time to read what you've written about blobs, you would see that you're actually promoting the mindless version as the more effective one.


Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

When it come to disrupting your operation and not killing stuff, I do prefer the afk cloak option , because If I did it the standard way with a gang of 20 people ... you would wait till you got a fleet of 80 to hunt us

With AFK cloak ... the mindless blob does not work ... but a lot of strategy can work to prevent and/or resolvbe the presence of hostile in a system ... I just need a little thinking ... like a lot pointed out before me



I've been roaming with BLAST for two months now. I'm in Serpentis NPC space (where your corp lives) 2-3 nights a week.

I've come to recognize a lot of the names of pilots who live there and fight there. General Paul, Chavu, ArabellIa, and many others. There is occasionally a good, entertaining fight. Win or lose, I often have a good time.

There is the omnipresent smacktalk. It doesn't matter how many times we show up with 6-10 pilots, there's always someone who starts whining in local about how "The blob" is coming.

Frustrated with pointing out that we have 6-10 people there and having it fall on deaf ears, we now have fun with this... someone always brings a cyno so that we can drop it outside the station for laughs.

All of these things are present every time I'm in YZ-L, M5N, WY-9, and Serpentis Prime. But you know what's missing every time I'm there? Valadeya uthanaras is nowhere to be found.

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

Finally, why do you feel living out of a npc station in 0.0 is wrong?



There's nothing wrong with it. Go Re-read what I wrote, please.

Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.08.06 15:22:00 - [467]
 

Originally by: Mackenna


You'd do it for a different reason, but you'd still do it. The new reason would be that the amount of stupid people (soloing anomalies) that you're accustomed to finding would plummet, forcing you to sit afk waiting for one.... and oh, look, you still have this alt designed for that....


The problem with assumptions is they can work both ways. Perhaps some of the "stupid" people will smarten up, but there will always (my assumption ofc.) be some around. Sitting AFK waiting for them would in all likelihood be a waste of time, with no-local it will be a lot more fun/ productive to move on quickly to find someone not as "smart".
Not all of us use alts btw.


Quote:
You cloak because you don't want to be scanned down by people who are fitted and looking for combat while you wait for the only kind of player you want to engage: someone who isn't fitted or ready for you in most cases.


Of course, though to be accurate, I cloak because I don't want to be scanned down by anyone regardless of how they may be fitted. Surely this is the whole point of the ship class? For every type of ship/ fleet the ability to pick your targets is much to be desired. Cloaks do make this easier, but at the cost of reducing the number of valid targets.
I consider this to be a fair trade, others don't. Almost impossible to reconcile the two different camps on this one.


Quote:
What I do have a problem with is the fact that you can do this and be functionally immune from any attack, ad infinitum, in 0.0


You might be surprised at the number of cloaky pilots who actually agree with you on this score. I personally detest all forms of AFK play, from afk-cloaking to afk research agents and the like. To this end I for one don't use AFK cloaking (beyond short periods for "essential" needs).
I am capable of seeing the "need" (and this is where I will simply agree to disagree with you) for a tactic that reduces the effect of local as a direct impediment to the use of specialised ship-types however.

On a related but different note, have you ever been a scout during a high-sec war by any chance? Local is the worst drawback if you wish to use an in-corp scout (namely your main) in such circumstances. In order to be properly effective an alt is an absolute requirement, unless you are fighting complete idiots. Even a 1 hour old newb-alt is better than a skilled (in-corp) pilot, this is simply poor game design imo.
The information you gain from local is by no means "minimal", in certain circumstances it could be considered far more than you deserve considering how little you were required to do to gain it.




Peace.

P.S. @ Voith. I do hunt in wormholes (for fun). My reasons for hunting in 0.0 are more often due to having specific targets ( paid for). Assuming that everyone who cloaks is just after "random" ganks is wrong, very wrong.
System disruption, psychological warfare, the driving out of "stupid" "careless" or just "carebear" pilots, prior to making a concerted effort to capture a system (or just burn it) are perfectly valid tactics.
Many alliances utilise these players as part of their intel, meatshield or even lucrative income source (renters). Driving them out is not always "bullying", but rather a sensible strategic decision.

How useful you consider this to be is debatable, depends on circumstances, but it is not unreasonable.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.06 16:57:00 - [468]
 

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

The problem with assumptions is they can work both ways. Perhaps some of the "stupid" people will smarten up, but there will always (my assumption ofc.) be some around.



The forecast from me is not pure conjecture, since we do have a place where local intel doesn't exist. Using the habits of the denizens therein as a guide is useful when considering how things would be in SOV space with Local chat modified to be the way it is in a wormhole.

With local removed, people are still going to rat in the same systems they do it in now. The same pressures to earn ISK in order to fund PvP ships, modules, skillbooks, and sov structures will remain. What would change would be the way that they do it. A solo carrier in an anomaly would be a real rarity indeed.

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

....Sitting AFK waiting for them would in all likelihood be a waste of time, with no-local it will be a lot more fun/ productive to move on quickly to find someone not as "smart".
Not all of us use alts btw.



If you're not sitting still in a system for obscenely long periods (most of it AFK) then my proposal won't have any negative effects for you... unless you consider being forced to move to another safe spot or celestial after receiving a warning that someone is about to find you to be something that'll ruin your whole day.

Please keep in mind, that at the end of the day, I want to shoot people who have the nerve to go away from the desk and watch TV while they're in space.

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

Of course, though to be accurate, I cloak because I don't want to be scanned down by anyone regardless of how they may be fitted. Surely this is the whole point of the ship class?



You know this. I know this. Believe it or not, some people claim otherwise. An example:

Originally by: Lia'Vael

I dont cloak to just avoid probes because lets face it thats just stupid.





Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

For every type of ship/ fleet the ability to pick your targets is much to be desired. Cloaks do make this easier, but at the cost of reducing the number of valid targets.
I consider this to be a fair trade, others don't. Almost impossible to reconcile the two different camps on this one.



Consider us reconciled on this point, or better yet, having never disagreed -- as I think the system is fine as far as balance goes. I'm not concerned with ship types. While it is the case that the most common type of AFK Cloaker is a Recon/Covert Ops, that doesn't mean that I have hate for those hulls or even those roles.

....tbc

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.06 17:30:00 - [469]
 

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

You might be surprised at the number of cloaky pilots who actually agree with you on this score. I personally detest all forms of AFK play, from afk-cloaking to afk research agents and the like. To this end I for one don't use AFK cloaking (beyond short periods for "essential" needs).
I am capable of seeing the "need" (and this is where I will simply agree to disagree with you) for a tactic that reduces the effect of local as a direct impediment to the use of specialised ship-types however.



I've stated this numerous times in this thread already, and I'm prepared to do so again:

I am not pro-local.
I am not anti-local.

I'm anti-let's-talk-about-local-instead-of-afk-cloaking-in-this-thread-about-what-to-do-with-afk-cloaking.

Just because I'm willing to point out the nearsighted flaws I see in the arguments people are making, it does not mean that I think it's fine the way it is and should not change.

I'm rather ambivalent about it. There are pros and cons to local both now and if it were changed.

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

On a related but different note, have you ever been a scout during a high-sec war by any chance? Local is the worst drawback if you wish to use an in-corp scout (namely your main) in such circumstances. In order to be properly effective an alt is an absolute requirement, unless you are fighting complete idiots. Even a 1 hour old newb-alt is better than a skilled (in-corp) pilot, this is simply poor game design imo.
The information you gain from local is by no means "minimal", in certain circumstances it could be considered far more than you deserve considering how little you were required to do to gain it.



At no time did I say that the information you get from Local is minimal in all cases. We're talking about AFK Cloakers in enemy SOV space, here. Even more to the point, we're talking about the assertion by some people that they AFK Cloak only because of Local Intel.

You're in a cloaked ship. In Enemy space.

Local intel provides: Proof that your ship is actually there.

That's it.

There is nothing else which is both useful and can only be gleamed via local.


And on a related (and obviously sarcastic) note, perhaps instead of removing local intel, we should make it so that both parties in this particular relationship have to do the same amount of "work":

Implement a ship module that provides local-style insta-update intel. Have it reduce your targeting range by 90%. Add skills that you can train to offset this.

Give the module a sizeable cooldown timer.

Now add a new ship class that allows you to offset the drawback almost completely.

and voila! both sides have "earned" what they get, right?


Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.08.06 18:39:00 - [470]
 

Edited by: Abbot Laarkin on 06/08/2010 19:17:17
Edited by: Abbot Laarkin on 06/08/2010 18:40:44
Originally by: Mackenna

I've stated this numerous times in this thread already, and I'm prepared to do so again:

I am not pro-local.
I am not anti-local.

I'm anti-let's-talk-about-local-instead-of-afk-cloaking-in-this-thread-about-what-to-do-with-afk-cloaking.


Ok, fair point. However many people (myself included I admit) draw a direct correlation between instant local and AFK cloaking. While it is fair to say not every cloaker utilising AFK "tactics" is doing so solely to negate local, a great many are. This is reinforced not only by those posting in this and other threads, but by personal discussion with friends who do do this.

It was inevitable that in any thread attempting to "solve" AFK cloaking the subject of Local would be raised.




Quote:
At no time did I say that the information you get from Local is minimal in all cases. We're talking about AFK Cloakers in enemy SOV space, here. Even more to the point, we're talking about the assertion by some people that they AFK Cloak only because of Local Intel.

You're in a cloaked ship. In Enemy space.

Local intel provides: Proof that your ship is actually there.

That's it.

There is nothing else which is both useful and can only be gleamed via local.


Proof that my ship is there is detrimental to the aim of covert operations. Instantly knowing when to suspend operations and start hunting a cloaker is important information, as such it should not be "free". likewise, as the hunter, instant knowledge of the number of potential targets and the support they may be able to call on is also important knowledge and should not come "free".

As to other information gleaned only from Local. Assuming for a moment that I didn't get a glimpse of an intruder as (s)he entered system (my failure as scoutEmbarassed), the intel which I can subsequently gain from the knowledge of their name is considerable. Whether you personally would consider this intel important I couldn't say, but I have found it invaluable on several occasions.

It would be fair to say that the information I gained from thoroughly researching several (long-term) intruders in "our" space has played an important part in tailoring our defensive strategy to combat those specific individuals. With reasonable success I might add. This all started with a name, which I got from Local. (And yes, I am talking about AFK cloakers here). Given this you may feel I am attempting to "nerf" myself by asking for the removal of local, and perhaps I am. But if that information would become available if I was prepared to work for it (and assuming I was competent enough to succeed) then I would be all for it. I'm not foolish enough to think CCP would remove local from 0.0 without first introducing a means to gain that information. The forum-rage would be intense if they did.

I am honestly not trying to get into a "slagging match" with you personally. And if you truly feel that AFK cloaking can in fact be debated seriously without simultaneously involving Local in that debate then good luck to you, but it is unlikely to happen here. There are simply too many people that disagree with you, not because they are upset by any attempt to change cloaking, but because they are actively utilising the tactic for that very reason. Some may be lying, or attempting to dissemble to some degree, but many are not.





Peace.

Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.08.06 18:54:00 - [471]
 

Originally by: Mackenna
Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

The problem with assumptions is they can work both ways. Perhaps some of the "stupid" people will smarten up, but there will always (my assumption ofc.) be some around.



The forecast from me is not pure conjecture, since we do have a place where local intel doesn't exist. Using the habits of the denizens therein as a guide is useful when considering how things would be in SOV space with Local chat modified to be the way it is in a wormhole.

With local removed, people are still going to rat in the same systems they do it in now. The same pressures to earn ISK in order to fund PvP ships, modules, skillbooks, and sov structures will remain. What would change would be the way that they do it. A solo carrier in an anomaly would be a real rarity indeed.


Just one point here. While I do tend to agree with you, I have come across a reasonable number of foolish people in wormholes. While I'd say the balance tends to lean towards the smarter players there will always be morons. I don't mind looking for the idiots, or if required taking bigger risks in order to hit someone who may well be ready for me.

There will naturally be those who modify the way they play, and there will be those who don't.

It's the uncertainty that makes it interestingCool For me at least.


Peace.


Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:36:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

Ok, fair point. However many people (myself included I admit) draw a direct correlation between instant local and AFK cloaking. While it is fair to say not every cloaker utilising AFK "tactics" is doing so solely to negate local, a great many are. This is reinforced not only by those posting in this and other threads, but by personal discussion with friends who do do this.



...but that correlation is just the outer skin of the onion. Peel it away and the same problem remains.

If, right now, the standard practice in 0.0 space were to keep guards at the gates, reporting on whomever came in, we'd be talking about what a detriment it is that you are visible for a second or more as you swap between gatecloak and shipcloak. Likewise, the people who are saying that they only afk cloak because they want to diminish the effects of local intel would be saying that they only do it because they are forced to be visible on grid for a second or two during changeover.

It seems rather idiotic to me that we can't talk about what to do with someone who goes AFK for hours or days on end behind enemy lines until we've taken some step to ostensibly make the whole universe blind to each other.

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

It was inevitable that in any thread attempting to "solve" AFK cloaking the subject of Local would be raised.



Agreed.

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

Proof that my ship is there is detrimental to the aim of covert operations. Instantly knowing when to suspend operations and start hunting a cloaker is important information, as such it should not be "free". likewise, as the hunter, instant knowledge of the number of potential targets and the support they may be able to call on is also important knowledge and should not come "free".



This is a game, not a meritocracy.

All of the information you got after you chose "show info" from the context menu is available no matter where the pilot is...and even if they're online or not. You don't have to use Local to start that process.


Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

As to other information gleaned only from Local. Assuming for a moment that I didn't get a glimpse of an intruder as (s)he entered system (my failure as scoutEmbarassed), the intel which I can subsequently gain from the knowledge of their name is considerable. Whether you personally would consider this intel important I couldn't say, but I have found it invaluable on several occasions.



I consider it very important. My point is that you don't get all that extra info from local (Yes, I know that's where you started clicking).

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

It would be fair to say that the information I gained from thoroughly researching several (long-term) intruders in "our" space has played an important part in tailoring our defensive strategy to combat those specific individuals. With reasonable success I might add. This all started with a name, which I got from Local. (And yes, I am talking about AFK cloakers here).



It has played a large role in making our baiting far more appealing.

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin

I am honestly not trying to get into a "slagging match" with you personally. And if you truly feel that AFK cloaking can in fact be debated seriously without simultaneously involving Local in that debate then good luck to you, but it is unlikely to happen here. There are simply too many people that disagree with you, not because they are upset by any attempt to change cloaking, but because they are actively utilising the tactic for that very reason. Some may be lying, or attempting to dissemble to some degree, but many are not.



I'm not interested in that either.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.06 20:22:00 - [473]
 

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin
While I'd say the balance tends to lean towards the smarter players there will always be morons.



Spot on. The world is not going to run out of morons any time soon Very Happy....and they will continue to be a rich source of T2 Loot and Laughs.

There is the possibility that the the universe may become the happy hunting ground that hound-lovers think it will be without Local. My gut tells me that there is no way the number of juicy solo pilots would stay the same....but I have to accept the possibility that I could be wrong.

Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.08.06 21:27:00 - [474]
 

Originally by: Mackenna


...but that correlation is just the outer skin of the onion. Peel it away and the same problem remains.

If, right now, the standard practice in 0.0 space were to keep guards at the gates, reporting on whomever came in, we'd be talking about what a detriment it is that you are visible for a second or more as you swap between gatecloak and shipcloak.


Indeed, but in this situation we are now talking about an organised defence force that is actively working to secure their space. This is a different beast altogether. While this would when done correctly would be effective, it is no longer infallible.
I can immediately (well some time ago in fact) think of various ways to get around such defenders. Again, not infallible, but definitely challenging and above all requiring some skill as a player (or group of players). Refining these techniques would be interesting (for me).

Quote:
Likewise, the people who are saying that they only afk cloak because they want to diminish the effects of local intel would be saying that they only do it because they are forced to be visible on grid for a second or two during changeover.

It seems rather idiotic to me that we can't talk about what to do with someone who goes AFK for hours or days on end behind enemy lines until we've taken some step to ostensibly make the whole universe blind to each other.


If Local were to be removed I would very much be in favour of a method by which cloaks could be "countered". How would be a matter for continued debate, preferably both local-removal and cloak-countering would be introduced together. If at all possible I would prefer a "counter" that relied heavily on skill and cooperation between multiple pilots. This counter would be aimed primarily at AFK cloakers (or just very stupid ones), as now there would no longer be any real justification for the tactic. Cloaks would still give an advantage to those that know how to use them well, but be all but useless to those that don't.

I do not think removing local before looking at cloaks is a good idea (I used to, but not any more)or vice versa. I certainly do not consider it "idiotic" to talk about both at the same time, rather I would consider it more likely to produce a "balanced" solution than attempting to separate the issues would.


Quote:
It has played a large role in making our baiting far more appealing.


Indeed. Just quoting this for the benefit of those who still don't understand how to bait properly, or are to "lazy" to make use of (or even go looking for) the information available to themWink.

Quote:
There is the possibility that the the universe may become the happy hunting ground that hound-lovers think it will be without Local. My gut tells me that there is no way the number of juicy solo pilots would stay the same....but I have to accept the possibility that I could be wrong.


I do not deny that the number of "juicy solo" targets would drop, I'm sure it would. But there will certainly still be some around, they will be harder to find, but then so will the cloaker be. And the methods by which a cloaker would be required to hunt would become more involved than just "going AFK till something turns up". Actively "stalking" a target works in W-space, and despite the inherent differences, I see no reason it would not work in null. Like you, I accept that I may also be wrong.

Would be interesting to find out though, don't you think?Smile

Peace.


Larinioides cornutus
Posted - 2010.08.08 07:45:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: Abbot Laarkin
If Local were to be removed I would very much be in favour of a method by which cloaks could be "countered". How would be a matter for continued debate, preferably both local-removal and cloak-countering would be introduced together. If at all possible I would prefer a "counter" that relied heavily on skill and cooperation between multiple pilots. This counter would be aimed primarily at AFK cloakers (or just very stupid ones), as now there would no longer be any real justification for the tactic. Cloaks would still give an advantage to those that know how to use them well, but be all but useless to those that don't.

I do not think removing local before looking at cloaks is a good idea (I used to, but not any more)or vice versa. I certainly do not consider it "idiotic" to talk about both at the same time, rather I would consider it more likely to produce a "balanced" solution than attempting to separate the issues would.


I have already proposed something along the line on page 9.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:50:00 - [476]
 

Not going to read this thread. Just popped on to say please leave cloaking alone.

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Posted - 2010.08.08 11:22:00 - [477]
 

Yes. Ignore the cloaker in system.... he means no harm at all.... he cannot do anything!Rolling Eyes
Muhaaa muhahaha! MUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! *EVIL LAUGH*Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Kaalmar
Gallente
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.08.08 19:38:00 - [478]
 

Originally by: Andrea Griffin

Grow a pair. HTFU.


What she said.

(Yes, I read the whole thread, it just happens that I agree with an opinion on page 1. No, I'm not an alt.)


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