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Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.23 21:56:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: Eno Lacigol

You have pervasively said your ok with active players who are cloaked, and your beef is with the afk players who are cloaked,making it so people cant rat in peace. I don't support removing local, or changing anything in regard to cloaks as I think they are fine atm, but to ignore how local affects the situation is burying your head in the sand.



I maintain that stance. My words in many posts and indeed, my proposal back that up. I don't want to deny anyone a chance at combat in 0.0 space. My beef is that someone who isn't even at the console is keeping a system on alert and there is not a thing I can realistically do about it unless this person consents to pvp. This does not gel with the rest of the game design, where we're not supposed to be able to operate without risk. It has nothing to do with wanting to "rat in peace". It's all about wanting to engage this person without having to bait them or otherwise get them to consent to pvp in my space.

My proposed change allows that to happen in a way that puts someone who is actually at the keyboard in no more risk than they are at now.

Local has nothing to do with it. If Local were gone, and intel came from friendlies catching glimpses of people on grid momentarily when they entered the system, I'd want the same thing. More importantly, all of the people in here who are pretending that they would change their behavior, if only local were changed, are either deluded, lying, or just plain garden-variety-stupid.



Blue Dragon
Posted - 2010.07.23 22:29:00 - [302]
 

Psychological warfare is just as valid as actual warfare.

If that cloaked ship is seen as a threat, then it IS one. But honestly? If that ship doesn't do anything then there's nothing to fear.

It's when you see 2,3,6,10 more names that show up in local that it might be suggested to run for the hills, or prepare for a fight.

Tyriana McLoren
Caldari
The Republic of Free Trade
Posted - 2010.07.24 00:09:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: Mackenna

I maintain that stance. My words in many posts and indeed, my proposal back that up.
No matter how firm you stand behind your words, you are in fact, incorrect. You are flat out ignoring the FACT that you would not know if anyone at all was in your system were it not for the local-intel. You wouldn't even know if your own corp members were in local space if they don't tell you or if you don't see them in your perfectly safe rat belt unless you scan them down. So to keep saying there is no connection between the cloak and local is just plain wrong no matter how many times you try to twist it or maintain your stance.
Quote:
My beef is that someone who isn't even at the console is keeping a system on alert and there is not a thing I can realistically do about it unless this person consents to pvp.
You are in 0.0 right? You should already be on high alert 100% of the time... I mean seriously. It is 0.0 space which is low security/null security space. You are not safe... ever. This just proves what most have already been saying about this alleged 'bullying'... you and others just want to be safe in 0.0 and don't like the 'monopoly on fear' that an AFK cloaker assumes.
Quote:
This does not gel with the rest of the game design, where we're not supposed to be able to operate without risk. It has nothing to do with wanting to "rat in peace". It's all about wanting to engage this person without having to bait them or otherwise get them to consent to pvp in my space.
I call shenanigans. I don't think you want to engage the cloaker at all. You just don't want him/her in 'your' system. I mean seriously, if you and your corp members were really so adamant about hunting down an intruder, why even let them into your system in the first place? Why aren't more of your corp members in here defending you and this nerf you are wanting?
It appears to me, and I dare say most others in here, that you and your corp are not fit for 0.0 life. But I guess that is what is deemed 'OK' these days if you just tag along with some alliance and keep hoping for safe 0.0 happyfuntime.
Quote:
My proposed change allows that to happen in a way that puts someone who is actually at the keyboard in no more risk than they are at now.
Let's say that somehow, someway, the EvE people decide to make some sort of change. And 'poof'! Now the AFK players are all gone period. Would you be perfectly content? If the game forced them to log out after X amount of inactive time? Would that make you feel safe again?
What's to say that someone won't find another way to keep their ship moving or their mouse moving while they are still cloaked and AFK? What then? Even if they are not really AFK, you wouldn't spend time 'hunting them down' as you claim. I seriously bet you wouldn't.
Quote:
Local has nothing to do with it. If Local were gone, and intel came from friendlies catching glimpses of people on grid momentarily when they entered the system, I'd want the same thing. More importantly, all of the people in here who are pretending that they would change their behavior, if only local were changed, are either deluded, lying, or just plain garden-variety-stupid.
You fall into this category yourself by still claiming the two are not interconnected. You've just said it numerous times in your posts, but turn around and say you don't see the connection.
Let's say that Local was removed... how would you know someone is AFK and IN 'your' system? Seriously? Without scanning/probing them down you wouldn't know unless your 'friendlies catching glimpses of the people who are in here' which you apparently don't have any friendlies, otherwise I'm sure, as stated above, they would be defending you not only in the forum but also in 'your' 0.0 space.

Mackenna = Voith?




Quixis
Posted - 2010.07.24 08:28:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: Quixis on 24/07/2010 08:28:08
Originally by: Tyriana McLoren

Mackenna = Voith?


Could be, but I think you're all being trolled.
Seriously no one can be that stupid, can they?

159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.07.24 08:55:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: Mackenna


People who live and operate in wormholes still cloak, yet there is no auto-update in local.

If local were removed, people would still hang out in enemy sov territory cloaked and afk.

But sure, I'll note that within the context of Robert Caldera's World, cloaking is caused by local chat.





Sure they do, but nobody knows they're there, hence: no intimidation by afk cloakers. Thus: no moaning. So imo: no problem

Dunan Sanis
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.07.24 10:47:00 - [306]
 

Please CCP ban people who are making Null Sec a place not secure!
Oh and please forbid the use of Caps and Super Caps in PvP because they are quite dangerous ya see?
Can you also make it so mission are instances instead because missioning is too stressful right now ( bad for my heart )
And please remove Market PvP as it is too difficult to be competitive





Oh and : I am rubber, you are glue.

Ty

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.07.24 10:56:00 - [307]
 

Edited by: Lia''Vael on 24/07/2010 10:56:37
Originally by: Quixis
Edited by: Quixis on 24/07/2010 08:28:08
Originally by: Tyriana McLoren

Mackenna = Voith?


Could be, but I think you're all being trolled.
Seriously no one can be that stupid, can they?


I live by the assumption that people are inherently stupid. I made my points to Voith but he simply ignored his contradictions and despite my request never fielded a valid argument. The whiners will always whine about anything that isn't a problem.

Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.07.24 13:58:00 - [308]
 

Edited by: Abbot Laarkin on 24/07/2010 14:14:09
Edited by: Abbot Laarkin on 24/07/2010 14:00:02
Mackenna, You seem to be unable to draw a rather simple distinction between the module (cloak) itself, and a tactic designed to maximise that module in a specific scenario...

Cloak module= Counter to scan and probes. You get this, we get this. It is the basic principal of the module to be used defensively when attempting to avoid potential hostilities (until such time as you, the cloaker, decide otherwise). No matter what space you happen to be in, this is the primary purpose of the module.

AFK Cloaking= A Tactic specifically designed to be used in K- space in order to lessen the usefulness to a defender of Local Intel. This is an "offensive" use of a "defensive" module in order to gain an advantage over a potential target(s).

In such a case the use of said module (cloak) and the tactic it is being employed in (AFK-Cloaking) are directly and intimately linked to Instant-updating local.

People who AFK-cloak in wormholes for defensive purposes only cannot be used as a comparison for AFK-cloakers in 0.0. Their situations are different, their intent is different, despite the similarity of their tactics.

Trying to divorce the intent from the tactic is futile, it is the basis of the whole argument/ debate that we are currently involved in, and those who use AFK-Cloaking as an offensive tactic understand this better than you it would seem.


Peace.

Edit. And for the record...I do not habitually use AFK-Cloaking as an offensive tactic. If I am cloaked in your system I am not AFK, I am there for a purpose and being AFK would be detrimental to that purpose.
I am capable however of recognising the necessity of AFK-cloaking in a given circumstance in order to counteract the effect of local chat.
As yet I have not seen a Dev or other employee of CCP state openly that Local chat was originally intended as anything other than a chat channel. That said, since local has become an intrinsic part of system defence in almost every circumstance, I am aware that CCP will not remove it until they can come up with an adequate replacement mechanic for intel purposes.

I doubt this will happen any time soon, but I live in hopeSmile

Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.07.24 14:35:00 - [309]
 

Edited by: Abbot Laarkin on 24/07/2010 14:36:32
Originally by: Mackenna

Local has nothing to do with it. If Local were gone, and intel came from friendlies catching glimpses of people on grid momentarily when they entered the system, I'd want the same thing. More importantly, all of the people in here who are pretending that they would change their behavior, if only local were changed, are either deluded, lying, or just plain garden-variety-stupid.



There are probably many advocates of local-removal (myself included) who would support a means of potentially uncovering a cloaked pilot (particularly an AFK one) if local were to be removed.

If you (and by extension your corp/ alliance) are disciplined and organised enough to maintain a guard/ scout on gates, and prepared to go to some effort to secure your systems beyond keeping an eye on local, then in all honesty you should have the means to do so.

After all, given the current population in null sec, there will still be numerous corps etc. that will not take those precautions. These corps will be the natural "prey" of the solo-cloaker, and will deserve every loss they incurTwisted Evil

As it stands, there are various ways to "neutralise" a cloaker in your system, my corp practises them all as/ when required. Funnily enough it has not been required for a while now, seems even "AFK-alts" dislike getting their bombers blown up.Laughing

Those who are unwilling or incapable of securing their own safety in null sec are Targets. They always were, and they always will be. The "victim" mentality is common in null sec, and if you have that mentality you will be a victim.

If you learn how to be a predator, even if it is not something you would normally choose to be, then you will find that solo cloakers AFK or not are no longer a problem.

Until mechanics change these are your only options...Predator or Prey, the choice is yours.


Peace.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.26 17:33:00 - [310]
 

Edited by: Mackenna on 26/07/2010 17:34:10
Originally by: Tyriana McLoren

So to keep saying there is no connection between the cloak and local is just plain wrong no matter how many times you try to twist it or maintain your stance.



Yeah, sure, and Automobiles wouldn't need brakes if it were not for those annoying stop signs.

If local were removed, you'd still be cloaking as much as you do now and for the same reasons, as well.



Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.07.26 22:15:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Mackenna
Edited by: Mackenna on 26/07/2010 17:34:10
Originally by: Tyriana McLoren

So to keep saying there is no connection between the cloak and local is just plain wrong no matter how many times you try to twist it or maintain your stance.



Yeah, sure, and Automobiles wouldn't need brakes if it were not for those annoying stop signs.

If local were removed, you'd still be cloaking as much as you do now and for the same reasons, as well.


What do vehicles and stop signs have to do with the relationship between cloaks and local?
A vehicle needs brakes no matter what in order to effectively decelerate and stop regardless of whether or not stop signs exist.

Anyone and their mother can use local to gain a significant amount of data with minimal effort, the time a pilot enters a system they show up in local. Without local you would never know if there is a single entity in the same system. A cloak specialized ship needs to utilize the cloak as it is a part of their mechanics and gameplay tactics. Having a cloak on a regular ship is sort of useless in most situations.

If you live in 0.0 and not alert (or at least not functionally brain dead) you deserve to be negotiated into a new pod. A cloak specialized ship never operates in complete safety, if you truly believe it does operate in complete safety then please say it, otherwise you waste time.

We have a saying on WoW, if you die you did something stupid learn it or GTFO but dont whine.

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.26 22:31:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Lia'Vael

We have a saying on WoW


Whatever credibility you may have had before just evaporated.

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:11:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Innocent Murderer
Originally by: Lia'Vael

We have a saying on WoW


Whatever credibility you may have had before just evaporated.


Aww how cute, your credibility never existed to begin with.

For the record I am
Originally by: Voith
WoW-Tard #1

Just so we can get that fact clear, I play it proudly same with Hello Kitty Online(meow). Both games are way too hardcore for you.

Innocent Murderer, we have already established that you are a petty control freak with issues conceiving the act of preparation and that you lack the strength of vigilance. Now shoo I have business to attend to.

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:43:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: Lia'Vael
I play it proudly same with Hello Kitty Online(meow). Both games are way too hardcore for you.


Oh, man! That was intense! Please, make it stop!

Originally by: Lia'Vael

Innocent Murderer, we have already established that you are a petty control freak with issues conceiving the act of preparation and that you lack the strength of vigilance. Now shoo I have business to attend to.


OH GOD NOT MOAR

Liosa Rearl
Caldari
The Lost Legion
Bang Bang You're Dead
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:57:00 - [315]
 

I don't understand the issue.

When enemy cloakies sat afk in our systems we just got together in gangs and ran sanctums or belts together.
We mined together. We sat outside station chatting in local. Our alliance made "local" fleets so that when you came under attack, you could have friendlies warp to you fast.

WTF is your damned corp/alliance for if you're not going to do it in groups? Want to do it alone? Play your farking solitaire. Bloody macroers. I would make a SB alt just to sit in your system so you can't macro mine. DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM, quit whining dogs.

I don't see the issue. Really.

Wish these younger pilots would understand that the universe is unfair and you're living in it. HTFU. This is EvE.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:56:00 - [316]
 

Man, you know a thread is going to be good stuff when you can't even get past the subject line without running into dramatic rhetoric. "Bullying"? Rolling Eyes

Quixis
Posted - 2010.07.27 09:19:00 - [317]
 

Edited by: Quixis on 27/07/2010 09:20:08
Originally by: Mackenna
Originally by: Tyriana McLoren
So to keep saying there is no connection between the cloak and local is just plain wrong no matter how many times you try to twist it or maintain your stance.

Yeah, sure, and Automobiles wouldn't need brakes if it were not for those annoying stop signs.

If local were removed, you'd still be cloaking as much as you do now and for the same reasons, as well.


The sign of complete breakdown of an argument, real life comparisons. (Which in this case, is not a comparison.)

I do hope you keep posting though. ugh

Tyriana McLoren
Caldari
The Republic of Free Trade
Posted - 2010.07.27 09:55:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: Tyriana McLoren on 27/07/2010 09:56:33
Originally by: Mackenna
Edited by: Mackenna on 26/07/2010 17:34:10
Originally by: Tyriana McLoren

So to keep saying there is no connection between the cloak and local is just plain wrong no matter how many times you try to twist it or maintain your stance.



Yeah, sure, and Automobiles wouldn't need brakes if it were not for those annoying stop signs.

If local were removed, you'd still be cloaking as much as you do now and for the same reasons, as well.

Oh... ok... gee... you sure made a good point there. If that point you were trying to drive home was that you are completely detached from logic and cognitive thought process.

A CLOAKING SHIP is meant to CLOAK. Has nothing to do with a rl automobile you moron. And since this whole weeatawded thread is about "AFK bullying"... your statement is even that much more irrelevant. You, once again just like Voith, only tend to see what you want to see/read in only 1 sentence out of many blocks of words.
This is called, or rather related to, selective hearing. But seeing as how you don't know a single thing about how things related to one another, we'll just let it go at the simple and obvious conclusion that you are infact weetawded. Period. Full Stop. End of Story.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.27 11:47:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Tyriana McLoren
You, once again just like Voith, only tend to see what you want to see/read in only 1 sentence out of many blocks of words.
This is called, or rather related to, selective hearing. But seeing as how you don't know a single thing about how things related to one another, we'll just let it go at the simple and obvious conclusion that you are infact weetawded. Period. Full Stop. End of Story.


You just described exactly what you did: You attacked a (sarcastic) analogy, ignoring the direct statement below it. I'll let it go and repeat the salient point you ignored:

If local were removed, you'd still be cloaking as much as you do now and for the same reasons, as well.

Yet even with that, you'll continue to claim that you only use this tactic because of local insta-updates.

Quixis
Posted - 2010.07.27 12:28:00 - [320]
 

It seems, he really is that dumb. Laughing

kyrieee
Bite me inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.07.27 13:05:00 - [321]
 

AFK cloaking is just a response to 0.0 ISK farming being too easy. You are complaining because you can't feel safe ratting in 0.0; if you want to be safe then stay in empire.

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.27 13:22:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Quixis
It seems, he really is that dumb. Laughing


Well I wont resort to personnal attack but he is in BLACK STAR ALLIANCE

I mean ... they are really complaining about "at keyboard use" of cloak ...

cause it prevent them from using most awesome and final ready fleet after 2 hours of waiting to get 30 ships to hunt my little solo cloaker that managed to get inside their systems ... cause nothing is camped or bubbled ... because the only protection they use is local intelRolling Eyes


so to them cloak is the most overpowered module in game cause it deny their 30 man gang of killing a single ship ... and therefore they need a easy module to find any cloaker cause that is completly unbalanced (sarcasm intended)... right?


Sadly, same mentality apply to all those complaining about afk cloak ... aka dont camp anything, dont bubble anything, dont try anything, and then come complain on forum that a single guy is monopolizing on fear cause they just dont know how to cope with a single red in system ... that might not actually be there ... you know as in (AFK)Rolling Eyes


If they were to remove local ...

How could anyone use AFK cloaking as a fear tool?


but that is beside the point for them ... cause cloak is just a deloyal hiding device Rolling Eyes that deny their 30 man blob to kill a solo bomber ...

Valadeya

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:16:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: kyrieee
I skipped all of the relevant posts in this thread to bring you this:
People who are not actually playing the game are the biggest threat to people who are grinding out npc content to make in-game currency.



Fixed that for you.


Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.27 15:01:00 - [324]
 

Originally by: Tyriana McLoren
A CLOAKING SHIP is meant to CLOAK.


And a CLOAKING DEVICE exists to counter PROBES and SCANNERS, not LOCAL CHAT, which it has no effect on. Saying that you AFK CLOAK to "diminish the effects of Local-Chat intel" is ignorant an irrelevant because your cloak doesn't affect Local Chat. It keeps on humming away doing what it does regardless.


Quixis
Posted - 2010.07.27 15:17:00 - [325]
 

Comedy gold. Laughing

kyrieee
Bite me inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.07.27 15:31:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Mackenna
Originally by: kyrieee
I skipped all of the relevant posts in this thread to bring you this:
People who are not actually playing the game are the biggest threat to people who are grinding out npc content to make in-game currency.



Fixed that for you.




Someone who's AFK is clearly not a threat.
You want the mechanics to change because you can't deal with them. Lots of other people can though, I think the problem must be with you and not the mechanics.

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.27 16:05:00 - [327]
 

Edited by: Mackenna on 27/07/2010 16:07:38
Originally by: kyrieee

Someone who's AFK is clearly not a threat.



Indeed... and that's why all of the bluster about people wanting to be "safe" any time they criticise the way cloaks are used these days is just b.s.

Originally by: kyrieee

You want the mechanics to change because you can't deal with them. Lots of other people can though, I think the problem must be with you and not the mechanics.



I want to be able to earn, with a reasonable amount of effort and time, the ability to shoot at people who go afk while cloaked in my space.


159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.07.27 16:32:00 - [328]
 

Edited by: 159Pinky on 27/07/2010 16:32:27
Originally by: Mackenna

I want to be able to earn, with a reasonable amount of effort and time, the ability to shoot at people who go afk while cloaked in my space.



I wanna be able to fly a titan zith a reasonable ammount of effort and time. But that's not gonna happen either.

Some things aren't the way you want them to be, that does not mean they have to change.

PS; it's not your space, EvE universe belongs to everyone, even if you have sov

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:15:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Voith
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Thought experiment for the crybabies with the tough-looking Brutor avatars:

SCENARIO 1: There is no local. You are a ratter/miner in your home systems, and I am an invader who has penetrated your defenses with a stealth bomber. When I want to play EVE, I log in, look for targets, and finding none, I log out.

SCENARIO 2: Local works. You are a ratter/miner in your home systems, and I am an invader who has penetrated your defenses with a stealth bomber. I log in every morning and leave the client running AFK all day. When I want to play EVE, I sit down at the computer, look for targets, and finding none, I leave the keyboard again and watch TV or something.

What's the meaningful difference?

This is for you to answer, Voilth.

[This] isn't an answer, it is [me] crying about how horrible at Eve [I think] you are...

Still looking for somebody in the "nerf cloaks" camp to answer the challenge that Voilth dares not debate.

War Fairy
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:44:00 - [330]
 

Quote:
3) set a maximum limit on cloak time per 'cycle' for ships carrying weapons regardless of player activity.

Here a 'cloaking capacitor' on a potentially destructive ship needs to recharge before the cloak can be made
active again, similar to on-lining a module while undocked (the cap needs to be at 95% before on-line
succeeds).

Bots could still keep a combat ship cloaked half of the time while a player is away (despite CCP rules bots
still happen) but the more time a destructive ship is cloaked, the more time is required to be uncloaked.
Docking should also reset the 'cloak capacitor'.


This wouldn't solve anything.

Unless you know they decloaked forcing them to decloak is meaningless.

Why bother looking if you don't know you can find them.

Best case scenario they're an extremely stupid pilot and decloak within dir scanner of a pilot who is bouncing on the scan button. If they're not in dir scanner range you'll never know they decloaked.

I guess you could keep probes in the water also and keep bouncing on the scan button.

Regardless any solution that requires you to constantly spam scanning is broken.

If fear is the problem then remove local. Impossible to have cloaker fear then.


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