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blankseplocked [Proposal] T2 Close Range Turret Ammo sucks.
 
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Allan Sheperd
Posted - 2010.05.05 17:06:00 - [61]
 

As it stands right now I can only use T2 close range turret ammo on ships using T2 close range missile ammo.

Jag Kara
Gh0st Hunters
Sspectre
Posted - 2010.05.05 17:11:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: darius mclever
imho making a drake so big (sig radius wise) that even torps hit full dmg is just stupid. (iirc it was 540-550m sigradius with all rage hams) you dont need to target paint it anymore. part of the problem is that it has 7 launchers where each rage missile increases it further.


Yeah, it's a bit much on any ship with lots of weapons, isn't it? Maybe making it a flat penalty ignoring the number of guns loaded with the ammo would be sensible? Or applying a stacking penalty to the penalties?
I think that would make a more balanced solution to the projectile problem too. A flat cap cost changes the role of the gun as the only non-cap using gun.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.05.07 16:02:00 - [63]
 

Supporting the removal of the penalties. Not so sure on the damage boost. Still supported overall.

Odetta Harpy
Posted - 2010.05.07 18:47:00 - [64]
 

T2 short range ammo is so crap i dont think i will every use it unless it is changed, i can use 2 types of t2 guns and i think both arnt worth it, faction ammo is better.

Augustus Thorn
Posted - 2010.05.07 18:49:00 - [65]
 

yup t2 ammo is crap

Deus Teragrammaton
Posted - 2010.05.07 19:44:00 - [66]
 

I would have to say that I disagree with this, not supported. As a minmatar pilot who uses Hail, you guys are giving it a bad rap. I do more damage with Hail M then I do with most faction medium ammo, and I just make up for the optimal and tracking penalties with a tracking computer and optimal projectile rig, and am still able to fit a half decent tank and other damage mods.

I haven't really noticed this big difference in T2 and faction except in the higher tiered faction ammos, and even that doesn't really justify the price difference. Tell you honestly, the only times I even use faction ammo is in PVE, never in PVP because the cost is too much

not supported

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.07 20:53:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Deus Teragrammaton
I would have to say that I disagree with this, not supported. As a minmatar pilot who uses Hail, you guys are giving it a bad rap. I do more damage with Hail M then I do with most faction medium ammo, and I just make up for the optimal and tracking penalties with a tracking computer and optimal projectile rig, and am still able to fit a half decent tank and other damage mods.

I haven't really noticed this big difference in T2 and faction except in the higher tiered faction ammos, and even that doesn't really justify the price difference. Tell you honestly, the only times I even use faction ammo is in PVE, never in PVP because the cost is too much

not supported


You're doing it wrong. The purpose of PVE is to make money, not waste it on expensive ammo. In PVP, there is a reason to use expensive ammo if it helps you kill the other guy faster than he can kill you (by doing more damage or penalizing you less).

I'm curious, what range do you have with these Hail AC guns? I'm assuming you are flying a Vaga to be able to keep targets in range?

Deus Teragrammaton
Posted - 2010.05.07 21:18:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Deus Teragrammaton on 07/05/2010 21:20:39
Edited by: Deus Teragrammaton on 07/05/2010 21:18:18
Quote:
You're doing it wrong. The purpose of PVE is to make money, not waste it on expensive ammo. In PVP, there is a reason to use expensive ammo if it helps you kill the other guy faster than he can kill you (by doing more damage or penalizing you less). I'm curious, what range do you have with these Hail AC guns? I'm assuming you are flying a Vaga to be able to keep targets in range?


I dont use faction ammo all the time in PVE, just for the more difficult missions, like Angel Extravaganza or Worlds collide, where I need the extra damage to kill stuff quick. Other then that, t1 ammo suffices.

as for what range I get with hail, on a vaga, I get 2 km optimal, 13 km falloff give or take, depending.

Edit - thats with 425mm t2 AC

Bobbeh
Minmatar
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.05.08 08:34:00 - [69]
 

TL;DR (But kinda Read some of it)

First off i think the argument that it makes the Haves better and the have nots have less is completely pointless but also completely true.

"Omg the Older Players do more damage then the younger players, well now thats not fair"
Seriously STFU, if someone wants to train to T2 weapons it should give them an advantage just liked someone training recon to 5 not to 4.

T2 and In Tech 2 should be more advanced than Tech 1, Faction should be More advanced than Tech 2. Reasoning is pretty obvious, Tech one being basic tech should never equal tech 2 lets call that cutting edge, and Faction is what the military or navy would use, assuming that they usually bankroll the big research companies and develop most of the tech you would assume their Guns would be t2+ more as they are advancing the cutting edge tech. Officer/Deadspace stuff is would be prototype gear stuff that is rare and in small quantity compared to their faction and t2 counterparts.

With that said ammo should stack up as such IMO T1<Worst Faction<T2<Militart< Best Faction.
Considering T1 is then readily available to everyone and has limited experience required (making shells in your garage). Worst faction would be more expensive and a lil bit better like last years model. T2 would be Cutting Edge Distributed ammo it costs you a pretty penny but its basically what the military uses. Military grade ammo would be Slightly better than T2 assuming the military made slight modifications and changes to it for their use. Best Faction would be Spec ops style ammo, Made in special shops precise recipes with hard ingredients super costly but does the job better than anything else.

Now Consider T2 is the best Cutting Edge ammo released by the states for mass production. If it was a **** product that all in all punished the user noone would use it, and someone would come out with something better and release it for mass distribution.

Ok So back to the Age argument:
Why shouldnt older players have the advantage.... Lets re-word this

Why shouldnt Players that choose to train certain skills further or more extensively not get rewarded when compared to Players who didn't train those skills.

If someone wants to train to T2 guns and ammo and then fights someone who didnt want to train to those should he not have the advantage. Shouldn't the T2 ship be quiet superior to the T1 basic ship and slightly superior to the best named (as well as being much more cost effective,) Ship.

So we assume T2 ammo only works in T2 guns cause the guns are able to handle special ammos that might not be stable in T1 guns or might need special primers or firing triggers that arent in the t1 model. Wouldn't you then also assume that these modified slugs/rounds must also have a decent added benefit to firing them if they are Higher Tech then similar lower tech rounds.

The Description of Hail ammo
The Hail is an attempt to combine the penetration of titanium sabot with the versatility of a depleted uranium shell. It consists of a fairly large titanium sabot shell with a payload of depleted uranium submunitions. It has tremendous damage potential, but should not be used at long ranges. Any pilot using this ammunition should be prepared to trade optimal range and capacitor energy for increased tracking speed and a devastating amount of damage.

It is both Tit Sabot and Depeleted uranium, 2 Tech 1 ammos.
Shouldnt Be Fired at long range, And Drains Capacitor (assuming its to do something to the ammo)
In exchange should get Increased Tracking and Devastating Damage.

Sounds Fair But The Tracking is a penalty in game?
Hail ~ 50% Optimal Penalty, 50% Falloff Penalty, -50% Tracking Penalty 5% increased cap recharge


Bobbeh
Minmatar
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.05.08 09:23:00 - [70]
 

Quake Description
A large titanium sabot shell that delivers a shattering blow to the target. It is however nearly twice as bulky as standard ammunition and has a somewhat slower rate of fire. The tremendous recoil generated by this shell means that the ship's velocity must be substantially curbed and a small portion of the ship's capacitor energy redirected to manuvering thrusters for stability.

So in Exchange for a Heavy Slug the pilot
Less shots in the gun, Slower fire rate, Slower speed.
in exchange
More Damage ( with the description should be alot more damage) Also if the ship is slower and more stable tracking should be increased just a thought...

Conflag
The Conflagration is a supercharged X-Ray crystal created by Carthum Conglomerate for the Imperial Navy. Has much greater damage potential than the standard version, but needs considerably more capacitor and also has reduced effective range.

Better Magnification on crystal means Hotter stronger beam, But pilot loses
Tracking and optimal go out the window and it costs a bunch more power to fire through.
But you get Lots more damage. (really dont see how tracking is effected by the crystal tho)

Gleam
The Gleam overdrive crystal has tremendous damage capacity but needs substantially more energy than normal and its energy signature is very easy to lock onto. It also requires the ship's shields to be strengthened around the turret to prevent critical backlashes

Well Pilot Loses
Capacitor and Signatur is Huge But more damage and Shields should be Strengthened.
(but according to Bonus's shields are weakened.... interesting So either Shields are specifically strengthened around the turrets only at which point they could probably over heat for longer or the ships shields as a whole are increased at cost of capacitor)

Javelin
The Javelin charge consists of a cluster of Iridium Fletchets with a Graviton Pulse Detonator. This allows for much higher damage than can be achieved by a standard rail system. However, the inherent entropy of graviton pulses means that it is very hard to maintain accuracy at long range.

According to the Description Pilot loses Accuracy (Optimal and tracking) in exchange for much more damage, but they get hammered with a speed penalty why?

Finally Void

The Void Xenon charge is a high-powered blaster charge that delivers an extremely powerful blast of kinetic energy. However, it has several serious drawbacks, most notably the fact that it requires considerably more capacitor energy than any other blaster charge. It also needs to maintain a clean aim for a slightly longer time than normal.

Pilot gets A lot of damage at the cost of Rate of fire and more capacitor use.

What do i think Bonus's Should be according to Description IMO

T2 Ammos should be as such (IMO)

Close range Gun
Close range ammo: Reduced Range, Damage Bonus, Tracking Bonus.

Long Range Ammo: Range Bonus*2, Damage Penalty(ROF), Accuracy Penalty.

Long Range Gun
Close Range ammo: Reduces range, Increases Damage*2, Reduced Speed.

Long Range Ammo : Increased range, Reduced damage, increased Tracking



Essentially what you get is ammo that is meant for the guns purpose Does it well, While the other ammo that is opposite Compensates for the lacking but doesn't do well to compete with its Competitor in the other class.

Close range ammo (for Long range gun) gets a bonus to Damage at Close range cause well makes sense a large bonus if its doing decent damage at Long distance if you get hit by it at close range, DAMN it should hurt, But those guns turn slow.

Long Range ammo ( Short Range Gun) Ammos Designed to make up for the guns inherent flaws in distance fighting but in such sacrifices damage (Rof).

In the End the Ammo types for the specific guns should be unparalleled in their Niche Close range to Close range and long range to Long range, and make up for the slack in the weaknesses by sacrificing its strengths when it comes to Long range to close range and vice versa.



dtyk

Posted - 2010.05.08 11:23:00 - [71]
 

Yep, supported.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.05.08 14:40:00 - [72]
 


Resha Tsvort
Posted - 2010.05.09 11:47:00 - [73]
 


Anna Headshot
Posted - 2010.05.11 17:13:00 - [74]
 

This needs to happen.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.05.17 17:17:00 - [75]
 

bumping this

Amerilia
Posted - 2010.05.17 19:53:00 - [76]
 

signed

Leaving Eve
Send Your Stuff To Me

Posted - 2010.05.17 21:08:00 - [77]
 

Supported, or I'm Leaving Eve.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.06.28 02:05:00 - [78]
 

bump

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2010.06.28 18:51:00 - [79]
 

T2 short range ammo
+15% dmg
-20% tracking

It can be produced cheaply but it comes with a tracking penalty.

Mr Intel
Posted - 2010.06.28 19:54:00 - [80]
 

Just like the Black Ops and ROFLkets, T2 ammo needs to be balanced. They dont need a huge buff, and other things dont need a nerf, they just need to be somewhat balanced with each other.

/signed

CG Oglethorpe
Minmatar
Universal Army
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.06.29 13:58:00 - [81]
 

Another in the line of things that need to be fixed.

Jennifer Celeste
Posted - 2010.06.29 18:22:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Suitonia

The first reason is that faction ammo is readily avaliable, and is always in great supply on the market. T2 Close Range ammo does exactly 1.4492753623188355x more damage than faction ammo. Yes, less than a 1.5% increase.


what? 1.49x (x means times) != 1.5%....did you fail basic math?

ihcn
Posted - 2010.06.29 21:26:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
T2 Close Range ammo does exactly 1.4492753623188355x more damage than faction ammo. Yes, less than a 1.5% increase.


You do not understand math.

muktar paneer
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.02 08:53:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/04/2010 13:27:37
Originally by: Goumindong
That would be the case if it were not actively a detriment to newer players. And, especially given the problems that people proclaim with "taking 10 seconds to change ammo" i doubt that any option strong enough to sate people who want the ammo to be viable will also be weak enough such that it provides no significant advantage to people with tech 2 guns rather than people who do not have them.

If you can find one, then good on ya. But until that time, or until tech 2 item requirements are modified, this idea remains something that should not be enacted or supported.


Not flying with T2 guns is a huge detriment already (by much more expensive fit if you use top named, by losing the final 5% from the appropriate turret V and spec IV, without even going into T2 long range ammo) - the DPS difference between someone with turret 4 and turret 5 + spec 4 is 12.5% already.

Boosting gank is always got my vote, anyway.



Bringing the skill differences into the argument is just wrong. Someone with tech 2 has actively put that long training time into the weapons skills and there should be a significant difference to justify it.
cut the gap and you end up with a scenario where you could spend that time training defensive skills to a higher level than the guy who specialised in gnus yet still end up doing little less damage.
People have the choice of training it or not and if they don't shouldn't ***** about the consequences.

T2 ammo costs a mint, it should be good.
Supported.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:40:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Andrea Griffin on 02/07/2010 17:41:28
With very few exceptions, all T2 ammo needs to be looked at. There are only a few worth using at all. I haven't spent the time analyzing the situation as thoroughly as others have, there's plenty of good information in the thread already, so I'll leave it at that.

I would like to add that faction ammo seems fine as is; It's T1 ammo that does more damage. That's great. T2 ammo should provide something unique and helpful that faction ammo does not.

I would also like to see some balance based on the size of the charge itself. What about a close range AC ammo that does excellent damage, but you can only fit half as many rounds in the gun? This would go along with the Minmatar philosophy of guerrilla warfare - get in quick, hit something hard, and get out before the duct tape falls off.

Harkwyth Mist
Caldari
Caldari Provisions

Posted - 2010.07.03 03:13:00 - [86]
 

Whether a player is new or old doesn't really matter, as someone who has been in the game longer will always have a slight to strong advantage, this is perfectly fair.

As the T2 ammo's are worse than thier T1 counterparts then they are unbalanced and need fixing.




Nerf T1 ammo!!!

Slick O'Hara
Morshu's Palace of Pain
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:14:00 - [87]
 

Signed

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:39:00 - [88]
 

I think your problem stems from the fact that you are comparing T2 ammo to Faction Ammo which usually cost in the region of 10 times as much.

Compare the T2 ammo to T1 Standard.



The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.08 09:10:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan
I think your problem stems from the fact that you are comparing T2 ammo to Faction Ammo which usually cost in the region of 10 times as much.

Compare the T2 ammo to T1 Standard.





It is 3 times the cost, and it hardly matters in PVP, if you don't plan to shot down a pos or a couple triage carriers. Neutral

And next to nobody uses T1 ammo in PVP.


foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.08 10:55:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan
I think your problem stems from the fact that you are comparing T2 ammo to Faction Ammo which usually cost in the region of 10 times as much.

Compare the T2 ammo to T1 Standard.


Cost is a bad balancing factor, take a look at the number of titans in game to see what I mean.

And when you spend 150 mil on a ship, you do not care about additional 3 mil for the ammo. Because without it, you just condemned your ship to death.

Long story short, only t2 ammo that actually works is barrage and scorch.


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